Was CASE FILE ADVENT sent from the surface of Planet 4?

Missed to reply on this Topic ;)

Great Points jdvyne

I think the Main Thing thats going in is PURE Coincidence at the sake of Plot Convenience which is basically a Excuse for Lazy Writing ;)

But a Good Conspiracy is always FUN ;)

I would also think that could WORK... but if we take it a STEP Further by having it that some Rogue A.I is Pulling the Strings and Humans have always been the Pawns..

Which was the idea i had for my Prometheus 2 i was working on in 2013 with Project Rook... where it would be Weylands A.I Soul that is pulling the strings ;)

The question posed is answered 24 seconds into the video.  It's sent from somewhere in the vicinity of Zeta 2 Reticuli.

Welcome S.M.  You're correct.

The above title graphic is for the topic where we tried to wrap our heads around the system, here. I'm not sure we made much progress during our debate, analysis.

Is there a planet that we have seen in the other Alien films that was once called Planet 4 or did the signal bounce from this system, or...?  I think that's the synopsis of our works.  

Certainly there is little doubt about WHERE the Transmission Originated from, a point that i raised in this TOPIC recently.

This shows approximately where the Signals in the Franchise came from... Derelict LV-426 Signal and where David had Transmitted the Advent Message after the events of Alien Covenant (we assume).

I think while we dont have Specifics i think we can Safely Assume that Planet 4 is located in the Vicinity of where the Advent Signal was Transmitted and that LV-223 should be within the Vicinity of the Derelict/LV-426 Signal.

Regarding Planet 4 i think its a Good Question to Speculate as to WHY this is NEVER mentioned in the Franchise (Real Reason it Never Existed at this Time lol)  but now we have the Prequels we can Speculate to WHY they never went back to Planet 4.

I think we CANT rule out that the Company had been there prior to the Aliens Time Line, but its just something that has YET to be Covered in a Movie/Book but its something that could be covered in Future.

"Is there a planet that we have seen in the other Alien films that was once called Planet 4 or did the signal bounce from this system, or...?"

Sorry, not sure what you're getting at.

We've seen LV-223, LV-426, Planet 4 and Fiorina.  The first two are located near the co-ordinates, but not at those co-ordinates.  If Planet 4 was near there, other ships on the way to Thedus would've picked up Shaw's signal.

"We've seen LV-223, LV-426, Planet 4 and Fiorina.  The first two are located near the co-ordinates, but not at those co-ordinates.  If Planet 4 was near there, other ships on the way to Thedus would've picked up Shaw's signal."

This has always bothered me, let me clarify...

I don't think Zeta II Reticuli is any near the shipping lanes between Earth and Thedus. Remember, the Nostromo was rerouted by MU-TH-UR to the Zeta II Reticuli system when it was on its return journey to Earth. If the derelict Juggernauts signal (and therefore Shaws signal and Davids Advent signal) was able to reach the Earth-Thedus shipping lane then surely the Nostromo would have picked up the signal before arriving at Thedus. It evidently did not.

While we know the Nostromo was rerouted by MU-TH-UR to the system, it is my belief that it was done so maliciously so that the Nostromo would then be in range of the derelict Juggernauts signal allowing MU-TH-UR and the recently (at Thedus) planted Ash synthetic to ultimately enact special order 937 under the guise of Weyland-Yutani's somewhat forceful extra-solar signal investigation legislation (investigate signals or forfeit shares).

Pulling Up Mountains

While reading Alien: Sea of Sorrows, where the city was buried thousands of feet underground, I was reminded of parts in Paradise Lost, Book VI where the Fallen Angels are confronted by Angels sent to fight them.  In all their might, the Angels sent were then put “to some disorder” when attacked by “devilish engines” built by the Fallen Angels.  

Do the Engineers do something similar to this in response to what David did to those on Planet 4?

Chapter 17 Necropolis

“Then he stared at the discovery spread out before him, with a smile that couldn’t go any wider. A metropolis, really. It looked to be centuries old. The city was vast, built on hills and spreading down into areas where, once, there had been valleys, most likely cut by rivers. It was stunning, even with everything in ruin. Scarred and pitted surfaces, buildings that had collapsed nearly to the ground, yet still they were wonders.” 

Alien: Sea of Sorrows, page 127.

Do The Engineers Confront David?

Could Planet 4 have mountains pulled up on it by Engineers that confront David if he goes back to the surface of Planet 4 and the planet eventually ends up looking like LV-178 or LV-426?  

"THE ARGUMENT

Raphael continues to relate how Michael and Gabriel were sent forth to battle against Satan and his Angels. The first fight described: Satan and his Powers retire under night. He calls a council; invents devilish engines, which, in the second day’s fight, put Michael and his Angels to some disorder; but they at length, pulling up mountains, overwhelmed both the force and machines of Satan.”

Paradise Lost, Book VI, page 135.

"From those deep-throated engines belched, whose roar

Embowelled with outrageous noise the air,

And all her entrails tore, disgorging foul"

Paradise Lost, Book VI, page 152.

THE DOWNFALL OF THE REBEL ANGELS by William Blake is on this page in Paradise Lost.  This painting, I believe, resembles the Alien: Covenant movie poster, enhanced below.

Long story short....does Weyland-Yutani cover up the events on Planet 4 and then the Engineer city is discovered much later by miners/someone else that is prospecting/colonizing?

And by then is the planet is called something else that we might recognize?

"If the derelict Juggernauts signal (and therefore Shaws signal and Davids Advent signal) was able to reach the Earth-Thedus shipping lane then surely the Nostromo would have picked up the signal before arriving at Thedus. It evidently did not."

Agreed, a head scratcher Gavin...this may be reconciled with how Weyland Corp compartmentalizes information and the proprietary tech that embeds "Synthetic Static" in all signals that hit the network.  

"the signal embedded inside of that synthetic static. Weyland-Yutani owned the patents on the devices that created that artificial signal, and on the hardware and software that could break it down.."

Alien: Sea of Sorrows, page 160-161.

"I think we CANT rule out that the Company had been there prior to the Aliens Time Line, but its just something that has YET to be Covered in a Movie/Book but its something that could be covered in Future."

Excellent BigDave.  The novels tend toward the Company covering up past misdeeds on inconvenient planets.

Certainly Gavin

I think its interesting to ask what became of the WARNING that Dr Shaw had left.   I think regarding Thedus etc i am not sure we have any Specifics on the Location of this Place or HOW FAR it is from LV-223 i have not read upon the Expanded Novels so i cant really comment much on the Location of Thedus, doing a quick search it seems its in the Outer Veil which is region of space which separates the Outer Rim and the Core Systems and Fiorina "Fury" 161 is also Located in this Region but i am not sure we have any Specifics to HOW LARGE this Region is or how FAR away Worlds like Fiorina 161 and Thedus are.

What we do know is that LV-223 is about 39LY from Earth and the Signal was Transmitted on January 1st 2094 and so thats 28.5 Years before the Nostromo arrived at LV-426 it is Highly Likely that Dr Shaw's Signal was Received at some point..  The only way it could-not have been detected would have been.

*If the Range of the Signal was Short and it was Transmitted just ONCE.

*If the Signal Failed to Transmit past the Point of where Dr Shaw had recorded it.

*If the Signal was on a Secure/Coded Chanel.

*If it was Turned Off at its Source.

How could any of these be Possible... well they could indicate that David was responsible?

With the other Signals again it depends what we take as CANON and i would assume we are to Accept the Prequels as Canon, and so the ADVENT would have been Transmitted on a Secure Chanel so only a Limited Number would be aware of this.

And we have to assume that as of the Year 2105 there is NO Signal on LV-426, and if it seems that David would go to Origae-6 first then that would mean as of the Year 2112 there would also be No Signal on LV-426

I think something we can ASSUME would be that if NOT receiving Dr Shaw's SOS was NOT enough to Warrant a Investigation on LV-223, then surely ONCE the Company Receive the Advent from David they would surely Consider that LV-223 is a Place to Check Out, and in Light of Dr Shaw's Warning they would be Prepared to some Degree (Military).

@Ingeniero

It certainly seems like there is some Cover Up and Conspiracy within the Franchise, i think this is a Intriguing Subject.  And so covering such Cover Ups could be Interesting but at the Moment we are also in the DARK on such a Subject!

I think there is always the Possibility that A.I could be behind the Scenes, it seems Ridley Scott was interested in A.I and that the Sequel to Alien Covenant would be more about A.I and we have seen RS indicate about the Hubris of A.I and what THREAT that could pose to Mankind something that Steven Hawking had suggested could be our Down Fall!

In Context to A.I we saw RS also suggest that the Replicants are A.I and so we are NOT just confining this to Computers and Software... but the Hubris of Engineering, Tampering, Evolving and Experimenting with things and NOT leaving things to NATURE... and so Playing God can be a Hubris.

RS also had suggested the Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, and so we can Speculate if the LV-223 Engineers are Genetically Engineered Super Engineers, either Created/Engineered as a Slave Race/Combat Troops or if some Engineers had decided to Genetically Alter themselves.

So we have a Rebellion and Fall on our hands!

Looking at the Paradise Lost and those Images, they are Similar, and before we GOT our Sequel to Prometheus i had Speculated on here in 2012-2013 about the Fresco Image and Paradise Lost, in wondering was there a Rebellion and then ONE Faction had attempted to Punish/Destroy the other with something Horrific... which DID-NOT do the Job and lead those Fallen Engineers to then take this Punishment and Re-Engineer it to Create the Horrors on LV-223 that these Engineers then intend to use on Mankind and their own Creators/Brothers?

These were some of the Things i was going to indicate in my Prometheus Sequels i was working on in 2013-2014.

Regarding the PULLING UP of the Mountains!

Ridley Scott did indicate in 2015 about if the Engineers were the Forerunners of Mankind, then WHO was it that made Worlds become Habitable to Support Life in the First Place... were was the BIG GUY.

The Hierarchy/Creators of the Engineers could indeed possess some Technology that can MOLD and Terra-Form Worlds... and so Create Natural Disasters... of Various Kinds.

The Source i had from November 2014 had Claimed the Engineers Creators possessed Technology that could do this and this Technology is used to Terra-Form but also to Eradicate Life and that the Great Flood and Ice Age are but some USES of this Technology to Destroy!

So the Pulling Up Mountains could be some kind of World Manipulating Technology when we think about that, then Volcanic Activity can be seen as a kind of Pulling Up Mountains and Volcanic Activity is the MOST Destructive Natural Disaster we have on Earth.

If something could EFFECT and cause all the Active/Semi-Active Volcanoes in the World to GO OFF within a 24-48 Hour Period we would be in for a DISASTER of Biblical Proportions that would make the Suggested Asteroid Impact that KILLED off the Dinosaurs look like a Small Disaster in Comparison.

LV-426 has a lot of evidence of Volcanic and Seismic Activity, we could WONDER are these Influenced by some kind of Technology/Event long ago and if we Speculate that then WHY?

Again such things are something i had Pondered when trying to Expand the History of the Engineers and their Creators ;)  It all came down to Cosmic Eggs ;)

"I don't think Zeta II Reticuli is any near the shipping lanes between Earth and Thedus. Remember, the Nostromo was rerouted by MU-TH-UR to the Zeta II Reticuli system when it was on its return journey to Earth. If the derelict Juggernauts signal (and therefore Shaws signal and Davids Advent signal) was able to reach the Earth-Thedus shipping lane then surely the Nostromo would have picked up the signal before arriving at Thedus. It evidently did not."

According to the Weyland-Yutani Report, that's exactly what it did.  The signal was originally believed to have come from a lost mapping satellite.

Z2R is not on any shipping lanes, but it is near the main route for Earth-Thedus.  Cosmically speaking.

I don't believe Mother did any re-routing. Whoever put Ash on board did that.

And if David transmitted Advent only once then the Nostromo isn't going to pick it up (unlike the repeating Derelict signal).  Shaw's LV-223 signal could've easily ceased by the time other ships were going past - transmitter power ran out or got wrecked by the weather.  And the Network wasn't as established at that time.  And it assumes Shaw set the message on repeat.

@S.M.,

While I appreciate that you worked on the Weyland-Yutani report, in terms of canonicity it holds about as much weight as any of the speculation we have here or on any other fan-site. For me, and for us all (IMO) the movies are the only canon, and even then the information related towards us should be treated in contextual terms - for example the Space Jockey is not fossilized because Dallas said so, and David cannot create something that was recorded to have existed (Facehuggers on the mural on LV-223) at least 2000 years beforehand. 

What we know happened pre-movie, from the movie and deleted scenes (are they canon too?) is this - Nostromo traveled from Earth to Thedus, at Thedus their science officer was replaced with Ash, the Nostromo tugged the ore refinery back toward Earth, the Nostromo was rerouted to Z2R.

This and the events of the movie dictate that the Nostromo was SENT (by whom, we can only speculate) to Z2R with the intent of obtaining a Xenomorph specimen, this was not an accident or a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

"the Weyland-Yutani report, in terms of canonicity it holds about as much weight as any of the speculation we have here or on any other fan-site."

No it's not. And that is why we have a WY Report - that would abstract from fan theories.

"for example the Space Jockey is not fossilized because Dallas said so"

Yes it is! Dallas was a narrator is SJ scene. There are no his assumptions. Dallas conveys the author’s intention directly to the viewer. The Space Jockey is fossilised.

"and David cannot create something that was recorded to have existed (Facehuggers on the mural on LV-223) at least 2000 years beforehand"

I like this argument, but, tbh - facehuggers on the mural doesn't look like the classic. The maximum that we can assume is all the results of experiments with Black Slime give rise to many different forms of facehuggers and aliens. David created an Alien, but only his own version.

Yeah, there are no facehuggers on the mural on LV-223.  There's an early Giger concept, that isn't the same as the one David created.

As for the Jockey - Dallas though it looked fossilised, and while he's not an expert, it was fossilised right up to the point that Ridley changed it so it wasn't.

Odd that only films apparently count, when this whole thread is based on something that never happened in a film...?

No Space Jockey in the Alien Novelization, Core to Prometheus

One thing I'd like to note about what is or not canon...isn't the Space Jockey missing from the Alien novelization?  

"The discovery of the derelict alien vessel and the eggs within it differ between book and film - the finding of the huge, long-dead space jockey, which would later inspire Prometheus, is notable for its absence - but the sense of the unknown is masterfully handled."

It is hard to argue that the Alien novelization isn't canon but also hard to reconcile with the story now focusing on the Space Jockey (article on the subject).  

The Weyland-Yutani Report

To me, The Weyland-Yutani Report is like any other corporate report you may read and then find some details do not reconcile and need further explanation, maybe correction.  

The report itself goes some way towards how the Xenomorph eggs ended up on the Sulaco by filling in the blanks in regards to eggs found in places other than near the Queen on LV-426.  And by giving insight into Bishop and Burke's relationship.

I noticed a date of 2089 that was off (by a decade) in the opening for Project Genesis.  

That gets on my nerves because I hold Dr. Elizabeth Shaw's notes and memos on her so dear but I'll live...I can make it.  So, I consider the report official.

Canon...until Ridley changes the details.

This message below was also in Phobos and another reason why I believe that the signal might be from the surface of Planet 4, potentially the secret destination all along.

I think there is some Good Points Raised here and i agree that the ULTIMATE Canon is the Movies, but that does-not mean that other things cant be Canon.

The Biggest Problem with any Canon/Material is they are always subject to CHANGE... which is WHY i never Purchased the W-Y Report as i considered it INCOMPLETE due to us NOT-YET having a Origins Conclusion and so it was just a case of things in the REPORT could be Subject to Change.  But i applaud the Work and Effort that went into it, and a Majority of the Information would have been deemed Accurate at the Time or Close to the Time of Print.  Should we ever Conclude the Prequels/Origins then i guess a Revision of the Report is Warranted and would make a MUST HAVE Purchase.

Regarding other stuff on here i think a lot comes down to Personal Interpretation and Opinion again.

1) Space Jockey, we have to remember it began as a Skeleton (Starbeast) it evolved to some Skeletal looking being HR Giger Necronom V which then HR Giger had to design a Concept Based of that which looked to NOT be a Skeleton, but due to the Color Scheme on the Prop and the Head it appeared to be Skeletal.

But we have to take what Dallas had said as his ASSUMPTION and that the Space Jockey is a Space Suit and i cant see that Changing.

2) Mural in Prometheus to me simply indicates that the Engineers had came into Contact with or Engineered different kinds of Face Huger but this does-not prove that the ALIEN 1979 Face Huger had existed Thousands of Years ago.

Essentially the Mural was a Easter Egg of Sorts a NOD to HR Giger, but those working on it had indicated it was showing the Deacon (this does-not mean the Dr Shaw Sourced Version).

3) The Rerouting of the Nostromo seems to be that the Powers to Be who had Autherised Special Order 937 where looking for a Expendable Ship/Crew that they could use to Obtain a Specimen, and the Nostromo must have been a Convenient Ship that fitted those Parameters that would have been on a Route that would NOT be Vastly off the Path to LV-426.  They had it routed to Thedus to Place a Agent (Ash) on board to make sure the Objective is Reached (Special Order 937).

We cant be sure when the Company was aware of the LV-426 Signal but it seemed they had only Recently Decided to take Action on it Not Long Prior (weeks, months) before they Placed Ash on the Nostromo.  Looking at Alien Covenant i think the Sequels would have given us Information that would have lead to Special Order 937

Ingeniero

"No Space Jockey in the Alien Novelization, Core to Prometheus"

No it's not! There is only one reason: ADF wrote a book on a script in which there was no Space Jockey. If you are familiar with the creation of the film, then you know that the studio did not want to make an expensive SJ layout for the sake of one scene. And only at the end, when the book was already written, the jockey was added to the film.

The same situation with AC, where David bombards Engineers. This scene is not in the book because it was also added to the film after writing the book.

And of course - David create ovomorphs in film/David stayed on the Covenant in the end. But not in the novel! Why? The same reason - the film was changed after writing the book. I know that some people say that the ADF doesn't like Ridley Scott's ideas or he write some or that he writes a kind of fan fiction, or that he had to constantly consult with Ridley Scott so as not to miss any of the director’s ever-changing ideas. No, just film was changed after the novel was writing.

Maybe there is something to write about the time between Prometheus and Covenant. Hopefully it will be about more than crazy David. Maybe ADF is about to write a story like that. He seems like a good writer judging from an interview at AVP-galaxy podcast. Eventually his novel version about Covenant is better than the movie since it can not be much worse.

The more he adds that goes against David as the creator of the Xeno the better. The idea that David started it sucks and should never have been in the movie at all. If ADF is trying to go against that then good.

It would be nice if they would have something about the Engineers in the book. What did not get a lot about it in AC so hopefully there will be more information about them there. An idea is that if we will get a third movie they should not have too much in the book but then if there will not be a third one they can have as much as possible in it. There could be a third option that they are trying to release a book about the Engineers or with them in it and judging from how well that book does depends on if they will release a movie that features more of the Engineers. Hopefully the book will have them as creators of the Xeno rather than David.