ALIEN: VENGEANCE

This is how Hudson would deal with little black bugs.

I think the Prequels do leave a FEW Problems for sure.

Especially what becomes of Planet 4 and LV-223  at the Time of ALIEN and after.... surely there can be NOTHING that remains?

While the Engineers Plot was Interesting and BOLD... having some ANGRY and ADVANCED SOB's who are intent on Destruction no SOON as they Discover Planet 4... and having these beings being Located on our DOORSTEP (well within 50LY) really causes a Continuity Problem with the Franchise.

But this was the SACRIFICE needed to allow for the AC Plot.

The idea i had for where David and Dr Shaw would go... was like over 10'000 LY away.  The Aftermath of Davids Actions in my Idea would not Impact the Earth until after the EVENTS of Alien Resurrection...   You could have even Pondered that the USM was trying to get the Xenomorph to Protect against the Engineers as THIS is what dealt with them PRIOR.

The Galaxy is HUGE.... we have Barely Scratched the Surface in the ALIEN Franchise.... i think its UNLIKELY the Engineers have only Seeded/Evolved and Taught Civilization on Earth, while they LIVE on Planet 4 and keep their Weapons on LV-223.

I also recall at least 4-5 Galaxies on the Holo-map that David had activated in Prometheus so they are LIKELY out their in other Places... could be they dont Return to certain Worlds very Often...

The Alien 01 The Master Narrative and Alien Genesis/Engineers seem to indicate the Engineers had NO real Malice against their Creations... UNTIL a certain Time they became Concerned, Disappointed and Angry at what we was doing... they LIKELY saw they had to Destroy us out of Fear/Concern of what we could become IF we was left Unchecked.... and likely their Efforts to Change our Ways was MET in a way that PUSHED them to PULL THE PLUG.

The Aftermath i would assume would lead them to GO and Inspect other Worlds they have Humanoids on that are not Watched/Ruled over by Engineers and see HOW they are getting along...

But for Earth its Curtains...

Could they also Ponder having to WIPE OUT other Worlds to be on the SAFE SIDE so that Nothing like what Happened in the Prequels can Happen again?

We can SAFELY Assume that which ever Mission they SEND out to go after David.... will lead to their Downfall...

But ACTUALLY you DONT have to even Follow David to give a Conclusion to the After-math of Planet 4 and the Xenomorph.

David a Creation of the Engineers very OWN Creation (Mankind) has USED the Engineers Bio-Weapon on the Engineers.

A Reversal/Revenge on that could be the Engineers take Davids Creation and USE it on his Creators (Mankind) well they ATTEMPT TOO....

Having them Turn Up at Planet 4 and then THINK...... "Right, you wanna play that Game, how about we take that Little Horror that your Robot Created and we Perfect that and UNLEASH that on your ASS!"

That Teach you Humans to go and PLAY GOD...

They take some Eggs to LV-223... Experiment/Evolve them and Mass Produce them they LOAD UP their Ships... and well WE ALL KNOW what then Happens to ONE of them.

Maybe this could be something, I don't know. I'm kind of worried that this would mean another movie where we would see a lot of David and I'm against that although I'm not against the idea of the Engineers versus humans. The Engineers could eventually have many different weapons such as spaceships, the goo, big guns, and so on, that could be interesting. Perhaps this sounds like an Aliens 2 but I would rather have that than another Covenant. Star wars has space-battles so it could be something like this or at least what we would see could point us into the direction that we could have a battle like that if they would get close to earth even though we would not get a scene like that.

"How FAR would they take their WRATH?"

What if they find that if an android can be that dangerous then they try to figure out who made it and by that the humans are in danger too. What this could mean for mankind is interesting and this also points to the need for human characters, focus on that and less on robots. You mentioned yourself about creation and sub-creation so that means that we need to have the humans there also and not do another Covenant where they were mostly ignored because Scott wasn't interested in it as you can see in the movie. It was almost like he was interested in the androids and thought "oh shit we got to have human characters too" even though that wasn't his primary concern and we got what we got.

David can be in it as much as Ravel and Chance were in Prometheus, at most. He would have a part in it even though it wouldn't be big. I could tolerate this but not more than that about David, but if he would have another big role like in Covenant then I say leave it alone.

Dark Nebula: I like the picture that you attached with the Engineers.

Technically, there is no evidence that Planet 4 is the homeworld of the Engineers.

Technically, there is also no evidence that the Engineers from Planet 4 are ... Engineers, but not just another humanoids who live in another colony/seeded world.

It may well be that Origae-6 may be the homeworld (or abandoned homeworld) of the Engineers. It will be curious if this is a world infected by Aliens. And It will be also curious if David meets the "classic" Alien.

For the purity of the plot, he will find not a living, but a dead or inactive Alien. And then he decides to return with a load of ovomorphs to LV-223. But will crash on LV-426. Of course, Origae-6 may have sleeping Engineers or even Space Jockeys.

@Thoughts_Dreams

Well the LITTLE Plot i mentioned Last would be a OPTION that could be taken to BY-PASS our David completely.

By that the Engineers who return would surely be able to detect DEAD HUMANS... it becomes a Case of WHERE could these Humans come from and this would depend on HOW MANY different Worlds the Engineers had SEEDED our Species.

They would be able to Determine the Juggernaught that DEALT the Death to Planet 4 had came from LV-223 and IF we can Assume those Engineers are aware of LV-223 and its Purpose and that they had Planned to Destroy Earth in the Past.  Then they would know  they had became Concerned with Mankind from Earth in the past, and i would ASSUME the Earth is the Closest World to Planet 4 that has Humans... they SURELY would Plan a Mission to CHECK OUT our System.

They would also Discover the Workshop of Davids and know that someone had been Experimenting to Create the Ovomorph, so a Option could be that they would look at this and TAKE it to LV-223 to then MASS PRODUCE and Evolve.

Applying a PLOT like this would By-Pass the Need to go after David in order to get the Xenomorph and the Need to go to Origae-6, with Xenomorph Samples from Planet 4 and a Purpose Built Biological Weapons Facility on LV-223 which we can ASSUME is on the Door Step to LV-426 is all the SET-UP we Need to lead to the Derelict on LV-426

The other purpose for this Topic is also to Consider would the Engineers merely decide they have to ONLY go and Destroy Earth?   Would they Start to have 2nd Thoughts about other Humans they had Seeded in the Galaxy?

@Leto

I think as we have NO real Confirmation on Screen, they indeed Planet 4 could be Explained as merely a Colony...

The Story is open to Change on Screen because NOT MUCH has been Spoon Fed Explained.

You have got to look at the Engineers as a Advanced Race who have been Traversing the Galaxy for Millions of Years.. IF for example we manage to gain FTL Travel so say its 2150 and we are as Advanced as Humans in ALIEN/ALIENS then in 500 Years after that i would assume WHILE it may be that Earth is where we Originate from... it would be LIKELY that we would in 600-700 Years (if we had W-Y 22nd Century Technology) we would have Inhabited Multiple Worlds and the Earth may NO-LONGER be our main BASE/HUB if you would.

So what i am saying is even IF it was that Planet 4 was where our Engineers First came from, its UNLIKELY its the only World that is used as a BASE/HUB for their Species.

We dont have a LOT to go on Theatrically, even with the Extras.... what we was informed about was that Dr Shaw (in the Extended Scene) said she does not want to go HOME she wants David to take her to where the Engineer told him he came from... take me to Paradise.

So when we loosely look at the Biblical Connection, we have to ASK to who are the Engineers?  They are NOT our God, and so if they are more like the ANGELS then this Fits with Paradise because some Angels are Tasked with watching over Paradise (Cherubim) and so Planet 4 could have been what we could call Paradise in that Context.

Which would merely indicate its a Place that our Origins came from.  This could be the Place that Humanoids are taken from to then be Seeded on Various Worlds.... Planet 4 could thus be where the Sacrificial Scene took place.

And so INDEED in this Context the Engineers Hierarchy would NOT come from Planet 4

As i have said before THEY could Explore and change our Planet 4 Engineers to NOT be the Engineers but a Sub-Creation, i dont think that RS would have done this though.... but at the Moment his Vision may NEVER be Finished and so its Open to Change.

I know some see the Prometheus Engineers as the Original and there is NO-WAY those on Planet 4 are Engineers, various people who worked on AC had confirmed they ARE our Engineers....   But RS had said also that they are NOT a Race... but a Civilization and so that means we have a Mixture of Humanoids that become essentially a Engineer Culture/Civilizations.

It seems to me the Changes they made from Prometheus would appear to maybe go and show us the LV-223 Engineers are Genetically Advanced Super Engineers....  they could be the Engineer Equivalents of Replicants

I think having Origae-6 be a Engineer World would be a bit too much of a Coincidence.  Having it be a World with some signs of Ancient Civilization that is LONG GONE could work though... to indicate this was a Place the Engineers had RESET some Thousands of Years ago.

Curiously, when I watched additional content on AC Blu-Ray - Planet 4 in the comments has been designated Valhalla, not Paradise. Paradise is a place where righteous souls go. Valhalla is a warrior's paradise. What can this information give us?

Could the inhabitants of Planet 4 be "retired" warriors from LV-223 or similar places? And if they are warriors - what did they do? Did they destroy, conquer and plunder other worlds? Did they fight with other clans (factions) of Engineers? Could Earth be created by faction A, and Engineers from LV-223, Planet 4 - faction B? And are the Engineers who created people on Earth different?

Shaw believed the cave painting was an invitation. She was wrong and admitted it. But what was this painting really? It is logical to assume that this was a warning - "don't go there." This coincides with some of the comments for Prometheus, such as: "they learned Spanish, but sailed to the Portuguese." And if the Engineers who created people were the same warriors, then the rock painting takes on a new, third meaning - conquer this place!

I have not seen the Extras yet.... i only have the DVD version.

But indeed maybe we cant overlook the Valhalla connection.

It is after all Connected to the song David chose to play and then also had asked MUTHUR to play for him "Entry of the Gods Into Valhalla"

But then maybe if we look at that Song it depends on which Context we look at it as far as Davids Arc or to Planet 4

I think maybe we also cant be Looking at things maybe too Literally.  By that i Certainly mean as far as Paradise/Valhalla in regards to a Literal Place in the Franchise the Spirit/Souls of certain individuals END UP.

Maybe Planet 4 could be a Warriors Paradise many Thousands of Years ago but had NOW changed somewhat as those beings on Planet 4 did-not look like Warriors.

I think if we are looking at the Engineers we maybe have to Consider exactly WHAT would they deem as a Warrior Death but also the Worthy Souls.

If we indeed TRY to connect Valhalla to Planet 4 we have to remember that this is a PLACE that is Located in the Realm of the Gods (Asgard) so maybe in that Context then the Cathedral/Citadel Building that Contains the HALL OF HEADS could be loosely connected to what Valhalla is but would this mean those Hall of Heads are Warriors?  Chris Seagers refers to them as the Hierarchy and Ridley Scott as the Apostles, Wise Men and Superior Beings.

We also have the Plaza outside the City, with the Hanger at its Center... this has Numerous Statues of Engineers, and could these be Representations of Fallen Warriors?  or those Deemed Worthy?

To me i wonder if they are Statues to Commemorate a Important Significance to some Engineers... those Chosen as Worthy of something... maybe in Honor to Chosen Sacrifices?

It could be the Engineers Seed Life or they Experiment with it some place/places and then they take those Deemed Worthy to Planet 4 to then Interbreed to Create maybe a Gene-Pool that they then USE to select for the Sacrificial Rituals (Sacrificial Goo).

I thought the Starmaps was the Engineers showing Mankind as to WHERE we came from... so i thought that LV-223 was at one time where they would Experiment with Creation and then Seed the Desired Results to Earth.

These Crude Maps had lead Dr Shaw and Holloway to LV-223 but who is to say that they Misinterpreted the Charts.

So when we look at Alien Covenant then from the Advent Vial Video it seems that Planet 4 is located near the Zeta 2 System also.... so MAYBE the Maps was pointing to Planet 4 but Dr Shaw and Holloway took the Prometheus Mission to the WRONG PLACE.

Who knows the Extent and Depths to the Engineers Origins... as Each of the Hall of Heads could represent a slightly different Engineer Species.

Wow @BigDave really awesome topic! Brilliant. 

And uh oh, it looks like my personal pet-topic has come up...

With regards to the "do synthetics feel pain" question (because WHY NOT!? Scary movies aren't exactly scary if the characters can't feel pain...??)

@BlackAnt

I would invite you to go back and re-watch the scene where Bishop gets impaled because to me, the scene depicts pain pretty accurately. 

I think as hox said, pain is an important protective mechanism so unless you wanted your robot to get destroyed really easily, you would program it to naturally avoid damaging stimuli. 

I think the brain is a physical and chemical object and if you created a replica of the human brain, you could replicate the experiences it produces.  

However, I think the synthetics are well programmed in that, they seem to stop feeling pain once they've already suffered a catastrophic injury and are not in a position to remedy the situation (like decapitation or being torn in half...). 

ANYWAY, as far as how the Engineers would react upon returning to Planet 4, has anyone considered this possibility yet?

The Engineers return, see the holographic recordings from the ship showing that David released the pathogen, find Walter stranded on the planet, and (believing Walter to be David) take their wrath out on him. 

Anyone thought of that yet, hmm?

(My reply got duplicated and there isn't a delete option, so here, have this bonus reply.)

Certainly i think its HIGHLY likely they will Discover the Body of Walter the Question is to WHAT state is Walter in?

He must be in some incapacitated State to allow for David to be able to Strip him of his Clothes and make a Run for it.

So from the Engineers POV they could think they have Found the Culprit and seen they are Incapacitated and from then you would think the Engineers would be RIGHT!  (depending on How Many Ships they arrive in or IF they can Re-Activate any on Planet 4).

It would then be.....

*Right lets send a Ship to Secure LV-223

*Lets send a Ship/Ships to Worlds within a Certain Radius that they know has Human Life on it.

This is UNLESS they have or Discover a Way to Determine that the Place of Origin for these Intruders was Earth.... this would be EASY if the Earth is the ONLY Place to have Humans.

Do the Returning Engineers have any Hierarchy with them?

If NOT then they would Certainly try and Contact HQ/Command.

At some point the Hierarchy/Order of the Engineers would maybe have to SIT DOWN  and discus the Safety and Risk of all the Worlds they have Seeded Intelligent Life.  Maybe some on the Council would think its the BEST idea to Eradicate All or Many of the Worlds they have Intelligent Life... they Certainly would want to go and Visit them and Check on HOW FAR they have Developed... and for Any that appear to be at the Level we was say 200 Years ago it could be CURTAINS for them!

At Present we really dont know how many Worlds the Engineers are involved in, how many actual Places the Engineers have Ships/Outposts on.  So we dont know how many Engineers are out there or how many Worlds they had Interacted with and Evolved.

It could be the Number of Worlds and the Distances between them means the Engineers are NOT really regular Visitors they could say Visit World 00135  then it could be 500, 1000 or more Years before they Return to that World again.

The Galaxy could be a Giant Orchard but where the Apple Trees are SPACED very FAR apart.  They would check on the Progress of each Apple Tree and if some of the Fruit are Not Right they could try and Pick the Bad Fruit away, and TEND to the Tree to make the Fruit Better.

If most of the Fruit are Bad they could take away and Destroy the Bad Fruit and Cut Back the Tree and Hope that the Next Season it would GROW back with better Fruit.

Sometimes maybe the TREE is so BAD that they UPROOT the Tree, they Change/Effect the Soil and eventually they PLANT a New Tree.

In the Case of Earth they decided to either Drastically Cut Back the Tree or even to Uproot it....   But after the Outbreak on LV-223 they maybe decided to Abandon our World....

Leave this BAD TREE to ROT with the Knowledge the Rotten Apples wont FALL FAR from the Tree and so would NOT affect the other TREES that are too FAR away.

Upon the Discovery of Planet 4 and the Destruction they would Realize that somehow... a Apple from a Rotten Tree has managed to get to other Trees and Corrupt it with its Seed... or thats the RISK that is Posed by a Space Fairing Sub Creation.

So surely the Earth would be on a Short List of World to Investigate.... and upon the Discovery of HOW FAR we have Advanced since we was Abandoned by our Creators...  The Engineers would surely see there is NO CHOICE but to Destroy us!

Would they also Conclude that other Worlds could NEED the same Treatment to AVOID the same Situation again? (Worlds Inhabitants Advancing without the Engineers Help).

I guess my premise regarding the Engineers mistaking Walter for David assumes that whatever damage David inflicted was possible to repair (either by Walter himself, given sufficient time, or by the Engineers upon discovering his body).

I think you guys already know my theories on that, and... I might just now be formulating an idea for an update to my Walter fic (three years later...)

I am really digging your apples analogy. The bad apples symbolizing dangerous knowledge that could spread to other cultivated worlds. That's very in keeping with the Biblical undertones, and honestly just really brilliant.

Well, I think the Engineers were already pretty ticked off with humans before David turned up but yes I could see them deciding to also completely scrap any worlds they may have similarly seeded, for fear those worlds might bare similar fruit. 

The Apple Analogy has Dual Meaning and it does connect to Tainted Fruit and Knowledge it can pass on.

But i also see the Individual Trees as Worlds if you would, if these Engineers are Space Gardeners... then Each World could be a PLOT, a Greenhouse or a POT where they Seed Worlds... each a Garden of Sorts...  It would be more Fitting if i said each World was a Giant Planter with a Variety of Flowers/Fruits and each of these are Positioned some Distance from Each other so they wont Effect the others should any of these TURN OUT to not be what the Engineers want.

I think if we look at the Context as far as HOW the Engineers would Discover where David is OFF to which would then lead them to make HIM a Priority and their Downfall.   Then INDEED i think Walter has to PLAY a Big role in HOW they Discover it was David who did this and WHERE he is going.

Otherwise we have either NO Logical Way they Discover who David was... or its down to PURELY mere Coincidence?

so Walter becomes the ideal PLOT Device... its then HOW can they gain Information from him and Communicate?

I guess it could be Interesting to PONDER... if Walter could recover over TIME and then WHAT he would do Stranded on Planet 4?  What would he then make of Davids Work?

Very interesting to consider how far reaching the Engineers garden might be. 

It's also interesting to consider why the Engineers seed new worlds.  

It's all a little like Weyland's futile quest to evade death. I guess all creation (of anything really-- art, technological innovation, genetic progeny) is always in pursuit of a sort of immortality. As Billy Collins said "...anonymous men catching a ride into the future on a vessel more lasting than themselves." ....

As far as how the Engineers could learn about David...

Well, it's possible that they could learn about David from the holographic recordings on the damaged ship. They could also learn a little about him from the extensive notes and drawings he made and left lying around his lab/workshop. 

If they manage to communicate with Walter, they could learn about David from him.

However, what would you do, if you had seen those holographic recordings and then found an android who looked exactly like the one who destroyed your planet?

Would you believe a word out of his mouth when he swore to God it wasn't him but rather his evil twin that did it?

"I guess it could be Interesting to PONDER... if Walter could recover over TIME and then WHAT he would do Stranded on Planet 4?  What would he then make of Davids Work?"

Why yes, I'd have to say I do find that very interesting to ponder!

So, if Walter was able to heal from his injuries given a bit of time, my best guess is that he would spend his time in lonely exile futilely attempting to repair an Engineer ship so he could get off world and try to save the Covenant/humanity. 

And also that he would not at all like David's works. 

First things First, welcome back VivisectedEngineer – long pause there anyways….

“I think as hox said, pain is an important protective mechanism so unless you wanted your robot to get destroyed really easily, you would program it to naturally avoid damaging stimuli." 

"I think the brain is a physical and chemical object and if you created a replica of the human brain, you could replicate the experiences it produces.” 

Your curiosity must have peaked enough for you to pop up your head to comment on this entire business of whether androids feel pain as it relates to the Alien franchise created by RS.

You and hox have this unnecessary delusion; but, I think we can correct it sufficiently enough so that these conditions do not confuse the both of you too much longer.

All together now as they say….The entire point of bringing synthetics, man-made humanoid robots is not so they can feel any pain what so ever in any way. The reason being is that they can operate without any human emotions or “pain” so that the mission can always continue in the event that the “humans” cannot continue with the mission parameters.

Easy right well not so fast, there is this pervasive confusion on your part and hox's where you both still have this delusion of morality about these synthetics.

Why this persists is interesting in of itself. I think it stems from a lack of understanding in regards to the basic foundations in computer programming and maybe just good old common sense.

I know you two are fixated on these delusional ideas rooted in speculation and not facts. So this is easily shared between the two of you all while neither of you site any proof to back anything up you are saying.

Ahhhh the basics of computer science what a joy. Scientifically this is a rather profound and complex question that goes way beyond the scope of this forum. I will try to condense this as much as possible so as not to confuse you two anymore than you already obviously are by these types of concepts.

Pain as it might relate to the simulation of it in an advanced computer is highly subjective; however, the necessity of it becomes more abstract the further you consider it’s function for a synthetic that is there to ensure critical mission objectives. In other words the more these synthetics might feel the more ways they could fail and the entire mission could fail…so no the programmers at Weyland did not design them to fail in the ways that human beings are vulnerable which would only compound the problems encountered when all of these humans and androids are in a difficult situation. In fact you want the synthetics to operate outside of all human tolerances related to any kind of pain to ensure the success of the mission no matter what happens.

When hox pointed out that synthetics designed by the Weyland programmers have haptic feedback loops that would allow them to perceive conditional changes in the environment such that they would be able to sense the potential damage to their connected systems, then yes this would be an accurate assessment of exactly the kind of functions you would design into more robust computer systems that have to be more aware, within systems connected to other systems to ensure critical mission success.

Another important distinction to factor into all of this is that you don’t want these synthetics playing favorites with the crew, falling in love with them, killing them, becoming jealous, and all the other obvious nonsense that human beings are encumbered with when it comes to long missions where you have to have the absolute correct discipline to achieve successful mission objectives.

There are various noteworthy complex contradictions in this so please do not consider what I have just stated as absolute gospel because these are movies and they do not even follow their own logic where they should. For example, let us all consider the scene on the Sulaco where Ripley says stay away from me Bishop.

Just before Ripley says that Bishop takes his hand and puts it over Hick’s hand and does the knife stabbing routine at the table to bond with the crew in a moment of levity. Right after Bishop returns to the other side of the table and you see a small amount of white fluid drip from his finger where he cut himself with the knife. Burk says I thought you never miss - implying an obvious serious error!!!!. Then Ripley explodes and says you never said there was going to be a synthetic on board. Burk says there was a problem with the synthetic on the last mission…..then Bishop says because of my behavioral inhibitors by in no way could I harm a human….and yet he just cut himself with the knife and may have almost cut and harmed Hicks. Ripley explodes again and says stay away from me Bishop you got that!!!!

So these highly complex cybernetic computer programs are interdependent systems where the Weyland programmers cannot even account for all contingencies and errors as it might have to relate to human emmotions????? OK THEN!!! NO MORE NONSENSE FROM THE BOTH OF YOU…..obviously this is all more complex than what I am stating here; however, this will have to suffice for the two of you unless you both want to spend the next several years studying how real AI might be applicable to synthetics in future computer programs as it relates to fictional movies.

I get it you two are extremely confused by some of Ridley Scott’s other works such as Blade Runner where the synthetics are “More human than human is our moto here at the Tyrell corporation,” stated by Eldon Tyrell……So please do not tell me this is Blade Runner because it is not….there are similarities and nothing more….those similarities end very quickly with a little common sense about why the synthetics in the Alien universe are designed for the type of missions they go on.

Now I would like to believe that there may be a way to articulate the two franchises and once again that goes way beyond the scope of this discussion. That is just a personal opinion of mine where the two franchises could be related in some very abstract way…..it does not mean they share the same cannon in any way what so ever.  

When you reply please do not be like hox and do anything that comes to mind after reading this reply.

As much as we all like hox he just shreds good ideas left and right.....LOL

I know you two are fixated on these delusional ideas rooted in speculation and not facts.  It's science FICTION.

@dk

Ahhhhhhh so glad you are here to tell us these things professor!

Otherwise we may have never figured it out.....Science fiction did you say???? Are you sure dk???

Science fiction inspires discussions like we have on these forums. People have different ideas and interpretations and that keeps things interesting- including you. Belittling and name calling doesn't seem to inspire engagement. "Professor!" I'll take it! ;)

@BlackAnt

Thanks for the warm welcome. Only just regained my senses after a long cryostasis. 

To your first point: 

"Weyland did not design them to fail in the ways that human beings are vulnerable..."

So, your first assumption here, is that that computer programs always behave in exactly the way the programmers intended, and never give any unforeseen result. 

In reality, when dealing with extremely complex systems, human beings often fail to predict every potential outcome.

Sometimes this results in minor glitches, or as in the most infamous real life example of a coding error gone awry, the case of the Therac-25. 

"There are various noteworthy complex contradictions..."

I would say that those noteworthy contradictions are pretty integral to the discussion. Would programming a synthetic to feel potentially endanger the mission? Are emotions a dangerous thing? Is pain a dangerous thing? 

Yes, they certainly can be. So are radioactive isotopes, but (much like pain and emotions) they can be quite useful if channeled correctly. If an unforeseen programming oversight causes them to be channeled incorrectly, the results are catastrophic. 

I think there is plenty (including David's ominous addition of the word "emotional" at the end of this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgJs7uluwlU ) to suggest that erroneously channeled emotion is the explanation for why David went rogue. 

The Synthetics are programmed with a feature which is meant to be used in a specific way which aids the mission (self preservation), but it winds up being misused in an unforeseen way. 

So, to your next point about programming knowledge... Wait... You, personally, know precisely how to build a Weyland-Yutani android?? And here I thought Elon Musk would be the first to work that out...   

I think, we're not nearly anywhere close to building something that mimics a human being so closely, and people are trying. It would be way more complex than anything we have available today.

But, we don't even know our own brains well enough yet, to try and replicate them. 

But, I consider it a sort of Ship of Theseus problem. So, if a person's brain is unable to produce or absorb a given neurotransmitter in sufficient quantities for optimal functioning, resulting in a neurological or psychiatric condition, it is often possible to alleviate the symptoms using a synthetic version of a neurotransmitter. 

In that sense, one small part of the person's brain has been replaced by a synthetic version, and that person retains all of their human qualities. 

I think also, if you replaced a tiny piece of tissue or blood vessel in a brain with a nearly identical synthetic version, that person would also retain their human qualities. 

And if the entire brain was gradually replaced in this fashion?

In my view, the only way to achieve something as complex as David is not through traditional computer programming as we know it today. 

We would first need to know the ins and outs of the human brain to a far greater degree than we do now, and then become able to replicate the parts of it as closely as I have described. 

Once we had that sort of knowledge and ability, the designers could make changes according to what traits would or wouldn't be considered useful. 

Now, as far as proving the subjective experience of such a being... Well, I do not think that it's possible to prove or disprove any one's subjective experience, I can only observe that organisms behaviors and draw speculations based on my own experiences. 

(Also, are those two cats meant to be me and Hox? I'll be the orange one, orange is a good color on me.) 

@dk

"It's science FICTION."

Oh no, DK! You've broken the fourth wall! We're not meant to acknowledge that...are we? After all, we do take ourselves very seriously around these parts!

However, now that you mention it...the fact that it's fiction implies that the writer's intent should be taken into account when discussing the traits of the characters.

So, do we think that characters who are compelled by human motives such as admiration and curiosity, and are portrayed on screen by human actors depicting human facial expressions, were written with the intention that they be empathized with by the audience? 

To that, I would give a resounding "obviously". 

And, I propose that BlackAnt's inability to do so is an indication that he is an android unable to feel emotions or pain and that he cannot prove to me otherwise. 

I am going to have to agree with Blackant in regards to the PAIN that can be FELT by a A.I/Machine

If we are looking at the Purpose of a Machine/Robot it is to Serve a Function and Purpose so that Certain Tasks/Functions dont have to be Performed by their Creators.

So it does-not seem Necessary or Logical to have a Machine that can FEEL PAIN....  And while i can understand when some say how WE can Feel Pain and it keeps us aware of Potential Dangers and Hazards i think with a A.I/Machine they would have  Senses and Programs, and they would have Routines and ways to Detect/Sense and Process Threats and Dangers.

You would NOT really want a A.I to FEEL the Pain like a Human as this could Compound/Interfere with the Task at Hand...  For Example... with Walter he FELT no Pain from his Hand being Bitten Off.

If say Bishop could FEEL the Pain of being CUT it could affect his Willingness to Sacrifice his Hand like how Walter did.   I think if Bishop could feel the Pain i dont think it would make him any more Careful when he did his KNIFE TRICK on Hudson.   It could be because he was going to place a HUMAN HAND under his OWN for the Trick that the Protocols in regards to Human Safety could maybe have effected his Performance and Caused him to CUT himself...   Sometimes with Machines we can have Errors.

But can a Machine go and MIMIC a PAIN Response... i would say YES! you could Program it to React in way that makes a Response but the Machine would NOT actually FEEL any PAIN like we do... it can just MIMIC a Response.

Such as if we take Ripley and her Anger, Fear towards ASH, her Concerns and Anxiety about BISHOP....  and Dr Shaw as far as the PAIN she Felt due to the C-Section and Seeing Holloway Toasted!

In Reality those are MIMICS....  they are Actors and their Response was FAKE it was Acting... Noomi Suffered NO real Pain/Loss it was a ACT that portrayed those Feelings to US.

So in similar Context then a A.I could some day be Programed to ACT like it FELT the PAIN... but it would NOT actually Feel any.

We can only Speculate to WHAT kind of Level a A.I would eventually be Programed to Trigger and Feel a response to Signals/Receptors to then FEEL PAIN...  could it be Possible ONE DAY?  We really cant 100% say NO.

You would have to ASK to what Purpose would you WISH a Machine to Feel Pain, a Advantage of having a Machine is that it would FEEL NO PAIN.... What Benefit would it have?

A Machine could be Programed with Sensors to Record Different Levels of Stimuli that would cause PAIN... so you could apply Various Levels of Heat to it.... Various Levels of Impact and its Sensors can then give you Data to HOW much Damage and Pain Level this could Cause to a Human but the Machine itself would NOT feel the Pain as if these Stimuli were applied to a Human.

I think its Difficult to Determine if and WHY would we Create a Machine that can Actually Feel Pain like we do, which would cause the Machine a Response to FLEE/ESCAPE away from that Pain!

"Hello ADAM (A.I) we have repaired your Damage from Yesterday, we are going to Continue with Basaltic Testing today and we are going to use the Explosive Rounds..."

If this A.I could FEEL any Pain like we could and this was going to be the 2nd Time it was Scheduled to FEEL the Pain... it would be like $£%^ This i am OFF!

As we are Talking about SCI-FI then you can introduce a Machine that has been made to FEEL PAIN... with Sci-Fi its FICTION and so you can explore Past Boundaries of Real Life.

In a ROLE REVERSAL.... a Human can be Programed or Made to NOT Feel Pain or Greatly Reduce any Pain.. as Pain is just Electrical Signals that are Decoded by the Brain.

This can be done with Drugs and Medication but also by Brain Conditioning where some people can BLOCK out the Pain Completely.   Some Injuries and Damage to the Brain or Nervous System can completely TAKE AWAY some Pain in Certain Areas.

We are but Biological Machines..... and so WHO KNOWS if we could make Synthetic Machines that can FEEL pain like we do... but we have to ask WHY?  You could just have a Machine that can MIMIC the Response but actually FEEL NO PAIN.

However within Realms of  Sci-Fi then Pretty Much anything can be made Possible ;)