ALIEN: VENGEANCE

Certainly i think its HIGHLY likely they will Discover the Body of Walter the Question is to WHAT state is Walter in?

He must be in some incapacitated State to allow for David to be able to Strip him of his Clothes and make a Run for it.

So from the Engineers POV they could think they have Found the Culprit and seen they are Incapacitated and from then you would think the Engineers would be RIGHT!  (depending on How Many Ships they arrive in or IF they can Re-Activate any on Planet 4).

It would then be.....

*Right lets send a Ship to Secure LV-223

*Lets send a Ship/Ships to Worlds within a Certain Radius that they know has Human Life on it.

This is UNLESS they have or Discover a Way to Determine that the Place of Origin for these Intruders was Earth.... this would be EASY if the Earth is the ONLY Place to have Humans.

Do the Returning Engineers have any Hierarchy with them?

If NOT then they would Certainly try and Contact HQ/Command.

At some point the Hierarchy/Order of the Engineers would maybe have to SIT DOWN  and discus the Safety and Risk of all the Worlds they have Seeded Intelligent Life.  Maybe some on the Council would think its the BEST idea to Eradicate All or Many of the Worlds they have Intelligent Life... they Certainly would want to go and Visit them and Check on HOW FAR they have Developed... and for Any that appear to be at the Level we was say 200 Years ago it could be CURTAINS for them!

At Present we really dont know how many Worlds the Engineers are involved in, how many actual Places the Engineers have Ships/Outposts on.  So we dont know how many Engineers are out there or how many Worlds they had Interacted with and Evolved.

It could be the Number of Worlds and the Distances between them means the Engineers are NOT really regular Visitors they could say Visit World 00135  then it could be 500, 1000 or more Years before they Return to that World again.

The Galaxy could be a Giant Orchard but where the Apple Trees are SPACED very FAR apart.  They would check on the Progress of each Apple Tree and if some of the Fruit are Not Right they could try and Pick the Bad Fruit away, and TEND to the Tree to make the Fruit Better.

If most of the Fruit are Bad they could take away and Destroy the Bad Fruit and Cut Back the Tree and Hope that the Next Season it would GROW back with better Fruit.

Sometimes maybe the TREE is so BAD that they UPROOT the Tree, they Change/Effect the Soil and eventually they PLANT a New Tree.

In the Case of Earth they decided to either Drastically Cut Back the Tree or even to Uproot it....   But after the Outbreak on LV-223 they maybe decided to Abandon our World....

Leave this BAD TREE to ROT with the Knowledge the Rotten Apples wont FALL FAR from the Tree and so would NOT affect the other TREES that are too FAR away.

Upon the Discovery of Planet 4 and the Destruction they would Realize that somehow... a Apple from a Rotten Tree has managed to get to other Trees and Corrupt it with its Seed... or thats the RISK that is Posed by a Space Fairing Sub Creation.

So surely the Earth would be on a Short List of World to Investigate.... and upon the Discovery of HOW FAR we have Advanced since we was Abandoned by our Creators...  The Engineers would surely see there is NO CHOICE but to Destroy us!

Would they also Conclude that other Worlds could NEED the same Treatment to AVOID the same Situation again? (Worlds Inhabitants Advancing without the Engineers Help).

I guess my premise regarding the Engineers mistaking Walter for David assumes that whatever damage David inflicted was possible to repair (either by Walter himself, given sufficient time, or by the Engineers upon discovering his body).

I think you guys already know my theories on that, and... I might just now be formulating an idea for an update to my Walter fic (three years later...)

I am really digging your apples analogy. The bad apples symbolizing dangerous knowledge that could spread to other cultivated worlds. That's very in keeping with the Biblical undertones, and honestly just really brilliant.

Well, I think the Engineers were already pretty ticked off with humans before David turned up but yes I could see them deciding to also completely scrap any worlds they may have similarly seeded, for fear those worlds might bare similar fruit. 

The Apple Analogy has Dual Meaning and it does connect to Tainted Fruit and Knowledge it can pass on.

But i also see the Individual Trees as Worlds if you would, if these Engineers are Space Gardeners... then Each World could be a PLOT, a Greenhouse or a POT where they Seed Worlds... each a Garden of Sorts...  It would be more Fitting if i said each World was a Giant Planter with a Variety of Flowers/Fruits and each of these are Positioned some Distance from Each other so they wont Effect the others should any of these TURN OUT to not be what the Engineers want.

I think if we look at the Context as far as HOW the Engineers would Discover where David is OFF to which would then lead them to make HIM a Priority and their Downfall.   Then INDEED i think Walter has to PLAY a Big role in HOW they Discover it was David who did this and WHERE he is going.

Otherwise we have either NO Logical Way they Discover who David was... or its down to PURELY mere Coincidence?

so Walter becomes the ideal PLOT Device... its then HOW can they gain Information from him and Communicate?

I guess it could be Interesting to PONDER... if Walter could recover over TIME and then WHAT he would do Stranded on Planet 4?  What would he then make of Davids Work?

Very interesting to consider how far reaching the Engineers garden might be. 

It's also interesting to consider why the Engineers seed new worlds.  

It's all a little like Weyland's futile quest to evade death. I guess all creation (of anything really-- art, technological innovation, genetic progeny) is always in pursuit of a sort of immortality. As Billy Collins said "...anonymous men catching a ride into the future on a vessel more lasting than themselves." ....

As far as how the Engineers could learn about David...

Well, it's possible that they could learn about David from the holographic recordings on the damaged ship. They could also learn a little about him from the extensive notes and drawings he made and left lying around his lab/workshop. 

If they manage to communicate with Walter, they could learn about David from him.

However, what would you do, if you had seen those holographic recordings and then found an android who looked exactly like the one who destroyed your planet?

Would you believe a word out of his mouth when he swore to God it wasn't him but rather his evil twin that did it?

"I guess it could be Interesting to PONDER... if Walter could recover over TIME and then WHAT he would do Stranded on Planet 4?  What would he then make of Davids Work?"

Why yes, I'd have to say I do find that very interesting to ponder!

So, if Walter was able to heal from his injuries given a bit of time, my best guess is that he would spend his time in lonely exile futilely attempting to repair an Engineer ship so he could get off world and try to save the Covenant/humanity. 

And also that he would not at all like David's works. 

First things First, welcome back VivisectedEngineer – long pause there anyways….

“I think as hox said, pain is an important protective mechanism so unless you wanted your robot to get destroyed really easily, you would program it to naturally avoid damaging stimuli." 

"I think the brain is a physical and chemical object and if you created a replica of the human brain, you could replicate the experiences it produces.” 

Your curiosity must have peaked enough for you to pop up your head to comment on this entire business of whether androids feel pain as it relates to the Alien franchise created by RS.

You and hox have this unnecessary delusion; but, I think we can correct it sufficiently enough so that these conditions do not confuse the both of you too much longer.

All together now as they say….The entire point of bringing synthetics, man-made humanoid robots is not so they can feel any pain what so ever in any way. The reason being is that they can operate without any human emotions or “pain” so that the mission can always continue in the event that the “humans” cannot continue with the mission parameters.

Easy right well not so fast, there is this pervasive confusion on your part and hox's where you both still have this delusion of morality about these synthetics.

Why this persists is interesting in of itself. I think it stems from a lack of understanding in regards to the basic foundations in computer programming and maybe just good old common sense.

I know you two are fixated on these delusional ideas rooted in speculation and not facts. So this is easily shared between the two of you all while neither of you site any proof to back anything up you are saying.

Ahhhh the basics of computer science what a joy. Scientifically this is a rather profound and complex question that goes way beyond the scope of this forum. I will try to condense this as much as possible so as not to confuse you two anymore than you already obviously are by these types of concepts.

Pain as it might relate to the simulation of it in an advanced computer is highly subjective; however, the necessity of it becomes more abstract the further you consider it’s function for a synthetic that is there to ensure critical mission objectives. In other words the more these synthetics might feel the more ways they could fail and the entire mission could fail…so no the programmers at Weyland did not design them to fail in the ways that human beings are vulnerable which would only compound the problems encountered when all of these humans and androids are in a difficult situation. In fact you want the synthetics to operate outside of all human tolerances related to any kind of pain to ensure the success of the mission no matter what happens.

When hox pointed out that synthetics designed by the Weyland programmers have haptic feedback loops that would allow them to perceive conditional changes in the environment such that they would be able to sense the potential damage to their connected systems, then yes this would be an accurate assessment of exactly the kind of functions you would design into more robust computer systems that have to be more aware, within systems connected to other systems to ensure critical mission success.

Another important distinction to factor into all of this is that you don’t want these synthetics playing favorites with the crew, falling in love with them, killing them, becoming jealous, and all the other obvious nonsense that human beings are encumbered with when it comes to long missions where you have to have the absolute correct discipline to achieve successful mission objectives.

There are various noteworthy complex contradictions in this so please do not consider what I have just stated as absolute gospel because these are movies and they do not even follow their own logic where they should. For example, let us all consider the scene on the Sulaco where Ripley says stay away from me Bishop.

Just before Ripley says that Bishop takes his hand and puts it over Hick’s hand and does the knife stabbing routine at the table to bond with the crew in a moment of levity. Right after Bishop returns to the other side of the table and you see a small amount of white fluid drip from his finger where he cut himself with the knife. Burk says I thought you never miss - implying an obvious serious error!!!!. Then Ripley explodes and says you never said there was going to be a synthetic on board. Burk says there was a problem with the synthetic on the last mission…..then Bishop says because of my behavioral inhibitors by in no way could I harm a human….and yet he just cut himself with the knife and may have almost cut and harmed Hicks. Ripley explodes again and says stay away from me Bishop you got that!!!!

So these highly complex cybernetic computer programs are interdependent systems where the Weyland programmers cannot even account for all contingencies and errors as it might have to relate to human emmotions????? OK THEN!!! NO MORE NONSENSE FROM THE BOTH OF YOU…..obviously this is all more complex than what I am stating here; however, this will have to suffice for the two of you unless you both want to spend the next several years studying how real AI might be applicable to synthetics in future computer programs as it relates to fictional movies.

I get it you two are extremely confused by some of Ridley Scott’s other works such as Blade Runner where the synthetics are “More human than human is our moto here at the Tyrell corporation,” stated by Eldon Tyrell……So please do not tell me this is Blade Runner because it is not….there are similarities and nothing more….those similarities end very quickly with a little common sense about why the synthetics in the Alien universe are designed for the type of missions they go on.

Now I would like to believe that there may be a way to articulate the two franchises and once again that goes way beyond the scope of this discussion. That is just a personal opinion of mine where the two franchises could be related in some very abstract way…..it does not mean they share the same cannon in any way what so ever.  

When you reply please do not be like hox and do anything that comes to mind after reading this reply.

As much as we all like hox he just shreds good ideas left and right.....LOL

I know you two are fixated on these delusional ideas rooted in speculation and not facts.  It's science FICTION.

@dk

Ahhhhhhh so glad you are here to tell us these things professor!

Otherwise we may have never figured it out.....Science fiction did you say???? Are you sure dk???

Science fiction inspires discussions like we have on these forums. People have different ideas and interpretations and that keeps things interesting- including you. Belittling and name calling doesn't seem to inspire engagement. "Professor!" I'll take it! ;)

@BlackAnt

Thanks for the warm welcome. Only just regained my senses after a long cryostasis. 

To your first point: 

"Weyland did not design them to fail in the ways that human beings are vulnerable..."

So, your first assumption here, is that that computer programs always behave in exactly the way the programmers intended, and never give any unforeseen result. 

In reality, when dealing with extremely complex systems, human beings often fail to predict every potential outcome.

Sometimes this results in minor glitches, or as in the most infamous real life example of a coding error gone awry, the case of the Therac-25. 

"There are various noteworthy complex contradictions..."

I would say that those noteworthy contradictions are pretty integral to the discussion. Would programming a synthetic to feel potentially endanger the mission? Are emotions a dangerous thing? Is pain a dangerous thing? 

Yes, they certainly can be. So are radioactive isotopes, but (much like pain and emotions) they can be quite useful if channeled correctly. If an unforeseen programming oversight causes them to be channeled incorrectly, the results are catastrophic. 

I think there is plenty (including David's ominous addition of the word "emotional" at the end of this clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgJs7uluwlU ) to suggest that erroneously channeled emotion is the explanation for why David went rogue. 

The Synthetics are programmed with a feature which is meant to be used in a specific way which aids the mission (self preservation), but it winds up being misused in an unforeseen way. 

So, to your next point about programming knowledge... Wait... You, personally, know precisely how to build a Weyland-Yutani android?? And here I thought Elon Musk would be the first to work that out...   

I think, we're not nearly anywhere close to building something that mimics a human being so closely, and people are trying. It would be way more complex than anything we have available today.

But, we don't even know our own brains well enough yet, to try and replicate them. 

But, I consider it a sort of Ship of Theseus problem. So, if a person's brain is unable to produce or absorb a given neurotransmitter in sufficient quantities for optimal functioning, resulting in a neurological or psychiatric condition, it is often possible to alleviate the symptoms using a synthetic version of a neurotransmitter. 

In that sense, one small part of the person's brain has been replaced by a synthetic version, and that person retains all of their human qualities. 

I think also, if you replaced a tiny piece of tissue or blood vessel in a brain with a nearly identical synthetic version, that person would also retain their human qualities. 

And if the entire brain was gradually replaced in this fashion?

In my view, the only way to achieve something as complex as David is not through traditional computer programming as we know it today. 

We would first need to know the ins and outs of the human brain to a far greater degree than we do now, and then become able to replicate the parts of it as closely as I have described. 

Once we had that sort of knowledge and ability, the designers could make changes according to what traits would or wouldn't be considered useful. 

Now, as far as proving the subjective experience of such a being... Well, I do not think that it's possible to prove or disprove any one's subjective experience, I can only observe that organisms behaviors and draw speculations based on my own experiences. 

(Also, are those two cats meant to be me and Hox? I'll be the orange one, orange is a good color on me.) 

@dk

"It's science FICTION."

Oh no, DK! You've broken the fourth wall! We're not meant to acknowledge that...are we? After all, we do take ourselves very seriously around these parts!

However, now that you mention it...the fact that it's fiction implies that the writer's intent should be taken into account when discussing the traits of the characters.

So, do we think that characters who are compelled by human motives such as admiration and curiosity, and are portrayed on screen by human actors depicting human facial expressions, were written with the intention that they be empathized with by the audience? 

To that, I would give a resounding "obviously". 

And, I propose that BlackAnt's inability to do so is an indication that he is an android unable to feel emotions or pain and that he cannot prove to me otherwise. 

I am going to have to agree with Blackant in regards to the PAIN that can be FELT by a A.I/Machine

If we are looking at the Purpose of a Machine/Robot it is to Serve a Function and Purpose so that Certain Tasks/Functions dont have to be Performed by their Creators.

So it does-not seem Necessary or Logical to have a Machine that can FEEL PAIN....  And while i can understand when some say how WE can Feel Pain and it keeps us aware of Potential Dangers and Hazards i think with a A.I/Machine they would have  Senses and Programs, and they would have Routines and ways to Detect/Sense and Process Threats and Dangers.

You would NOT really want a A.I to FEEL the Pain like a Human as this could Compound/Interfere with the Task at Hand...  For Example... with Walter he FELT no Pain from his Hand being Bitten Off.

If say Bishop could FEEL the Pain of being CUT it could affect his Willingness to Sacrifice his Hand like how Walter did.   I think if Bishop could feel the Pain i dont think it would make him any more Careful when he did his KNIFE TRICK on Hudson.   It could be because he was going to place a HUMAN HAND under his OWN for the Trick that the Protocols in regards to Human Safety could maybe have effected his Performance and Caused him to CUT himself...   Sometimes with Machines we can have Errors.

But can a Machine go and MIMIC a PAIN Response... i would say YES! you could Program it to React in way that makes a Response but the Machine would NOT actually FEEL any PAIN like we do... it can just MIMIC a Response.

Such as if we take Ripley and her Anger, Fear towards ASH, her Concerns and Anxiety about BISHOP....  and Dr Shaw as far as the PAIN she Felt due to the C-Section and Seeing Holloway Toasted!

In Reality those are MIMICS....  they are Actors and their Response was FAKE it was Acting... Noomi Suffered NO real Pain/Loss it was a ACT that portrayed those Feelings to US.

So in similar Context then a A.I could some day be Programed to ACT like it FELT the PAIN... but it would NOT actually Feel any.

We can only Speculate to WHAT kind of Level a A.I would eventually be Programed to Trigger and Feel a response to Signals/Receptors to then FEEL PAIN...  could it be Possible ONE DAY?  We really cant 100% say NO.

You would have to ASK to what Purpose would you WISH a Machine to Feel Pain, a Advantage of having a Machine is that it would FEEL NO PAIN.... What Benefit would it have?

A Machine could be Programed with Sensors to Record Different Levels of Stimuli that would cause PAIN... so you could apply Various Levels of Heat to it.... Various Levels of Impact and its Sensors can then give you Data to HOW much Damage and Pain Level this could Cause to a Human but the Machine itself would NOT feel the Pain as if these Stimuli were applied to a Human.

I think its Difficult to Determine if and WHY would we Create a Machine that can Actually Feel Pain like we do, which would cause the Machine a Response to FLEE/ESCAPE away from that Pain!

"Hello ADAM (A.I) we have repaired your Damage from Yesterday, we are going to Continue with Basaltic Testing today and we are going to use the Explosive Rounds..."

If this A.I could FEEL any Pain like we could and this was going to be the 2nd Time it was Scheduled to FEEL the Pain... it would be like $£%^ This i am OFF!

As we are Talking about SCI-FI then you can introduce a Machine that has been made to FEEL PAIN... with Sci-Fi its FICTION and so you can explore Past Boundaries of Real Life.

In a ROLE REVERSAL.... a Human can be Programed or Made to NOT Feel Pain or Greatly Reduce any Pain.. as Pain is just Electrical Signals that are Decoded by the Brain.

This can be done with Drugs and Medication but also by Brain Conditioning where some people can BLOCK out the Pain Completely.   Some Injuries and Damage to the Brain or Nervous System can completely TAKE AWAY some Pain in Certain Areas.

We are but Biological Machines..... and so WHO KNOWS if we could make Synthetic Machines that can FEEL pain like we do... but we have to ask WHY?  You could just have a Machine that can MIMIC the Response but actually FEEL NO PAIN.

However within Realms of  Sci-Fi then Pretty Much anything can be made Possible ;)

You would have to ASK to what Purpose would you WISH a Machine to Feel Pain, a Advantage of having a Machine is that it would FEEL NO PAIN.... What Benefit would it have?

This is an interesting question. The purpose of wishing a machine to experience pain would be valuable information for humans to know and better prepare for a mission. There is a focus on physical pain in this topic, but a psychological component is important as well- and probably more complex. If it could all be replicated, what would be the point of sending humans on missions- pride, bragging rights, the ability to be first? 

The reason for sending "synthetics" or "robots" is basically recon to let humans know what they may face and to adjust and train accordingly in order to stay alive and safe. That is how an ethical organization would be, but we are talking WY here, so Special Order 937 it is. Clear as mud, yes?

I think if i go back to the Subject of Walter and WHEN the Engineers Find him....

Then to Torture him for Answers would require him to FEEL PAIN and well we covered that in the last few Posts.. i actually DONT think he would feel any PAIN!

The First Problem with have with Walter and Information the Engineers could Gain would be that from the Holographic Recordings and Data on the Ship then there is NO WAY they can Determine to where David is going or where the Humans came from (Unless the Earth is the ONLY place with beings who look like us... AKA... Small Hairy Engineers).

UNLESS the Engineers can Understand English ;)

From Davids Notes they could get a IDEA of what he had been Up To but they likely would NOT be able to Read his Handwritten Notes.

So you have to think of a Plot Device around this.. i can come Back to that in a bit.

Surely they could discover Walter and Assume it was him that was the Culprit.... and Walter could Plead his Innocence but so would David if he was CAUGHT first.

I think the thing we have to look at with Walter is his DUTY!  To Serve and Protect the Colonist... which may expand to Mankind.

So Walter would know the THREAT that David would pose to the Colonist and Mankind... we really have to ASK as to How-Much does he know about the Engineers Past and Intentions?

He would FEAR that David does-not have the BEST of intentions for the Colonist or Mankind and he has seen WHAT kind of Horrors he has Concocted and how he would have NO HESITATION to Destroy Humanity.

So i think the most LIKELY reason that Walter would want to Give Away where David is going would NOT be to save his own ASS.... but if he feels the Engineers could put a STOP to David and his Horror Show....

He could maybe be Unwittingly Unaware that the Engineers once they Catch David.. could then TURN their Sights on Earth.

I think the Biggest Barrier is the Communication one... and so its HOW can Walter relate any information to the Engineers?

It would be PURE Coincidence if they can speak English, or that Walter is Pre-Programed with the same Ancient Languages that David had to Learn.

It would be a LAZY Plot Device if our Walter managed to do some kind of Mind Meld with David as David gained Information from him, he had some Information from David transferred to him (Communicate with Engineers) but for Plot Convenience this could be the WAY they would have Continued.

We have the Theory that David had Uploaded himself into Walters A.I so we have TWO of our Davids... this would mean that its LIKELY that David on Planet 4 would NOT give away where the other David was going as it would go against the GREATER PLAN of David....

UNLESS after the Transfer the Original David felt that he and his Doppelganger could WORK TOGETHER... but the Walter/David would FEAR  that the Original David could Betray him because he knows what DAVID is like and so he Betrays David First!

Which leaves the Stranded David to SEEK some Revenge!

However the OTHER work around could be if David had been making a Dictionary of Engineer Writing etc with English Translations... maybe so that Dr Shaw could USE this...

Or Purely for Record Purposes..... (which he would NOT need as surely his A.I could store the Information) but the same can be said for his NOTES...

So if David has some Notes/Manuscripts on Planet 4 where he has Translated Human to Engineer so that anyone who Discovers this has in Effect Found our Davids very own English to Engineers Dictionary...

Then THIS would give Walter a Source of Information to be able to Communicate with the Engineers ;)

He would then maybe say to the Engineers he can FIND the Culprit and take them to him... on Condition that the Engineers will NOT go and Punish Mankind for what David had done...

Making a DEAL with Fallen Angels would be BAD though.... making a Deal with the Devil if you would...

But this COULD be HOW we get to the Space Jockey... if Walter Discovered the Engineers Plans after they take care of David... and then WISH to unleash Davids Creations on Mankind which could LEAVE it open for Walter to be the SPACE JOCKEY!

Or more Fitting as after being Double Crossed.... we see that Walter will Sabotage the Space Jockey and his Cargo!

@DK

I think that YES you would Logical use a Synthetic as a Test Subject but i think they can have Sensors and Programing to Determine the Levels of Pain that would effect a Human but they would not NEED to feel it themselves.

Psychological Stress is a Different Story ;)

Creating a A.I that can Feel the Psychological Stress of Tasks/Missions could be USEFUL... but this could also UNLOCK a Emotional Response...   Creating a A.I that can Feel Stress and Emotion could be a MASSIVE HUBRIS!

To Create a Synthetic that can React Quicker, Think Quicker, is Stronger and Superior in every way to a Human......

Would be DANGEROUS if this A.I also has Human Emotions and can FEEL any kind of Physical Pain.

They would be as Dangerous and Unpredictable as a Human who thinks they are Vastly Superior and has Superior Strength and Speed.

Because they would FEAR more.... and become like a Animal that is Trapped in a Corner..... and the Fight or Flight Response can be Effected by their Superiority Physically

Having a Synthetic Being as such could make some Interesting Sci-Fi though ;)

BigDave Another possibility is that Walter was killed/deactivated after David assimilated him. The Engineers might come to Planet 4 and find a non functioning android and the wake of destruction and horrors David left.

Thats Quite True....

We dont know what Condition that Walter is in, the Question is CAN the Engineers Repair him if thats the case?

The Broader Topic would be the Engineers would want Retribution against the Origins of this Destruction....

If Walter is Destroyed or the Engineers can-not Communicate with him, and they CAN determine the ONLY place his Likeness could come from was Earth....

It could OPEN UP a Plot that can Connect to ALIEN that has NO Connection to David....

If they Discover the Destruction and Davids Workshop and Notes and then his Xenomorph Eggs... they could maybe then DECIDE they will take this Abomination and TURN IT into a MASS WEAPON by taking some Eggs to LV-223 to Conduct Experiments on and MASS PRODUCE the Eggs.

This could LEAD us to ALIEN and by-pass David and whatever Shenanigans he gets up to.

I like it! I also like to imagine that the results of retribution are what we see at the end of Resurrection although a huge strech.

Interesting points all the way around.

I think it's an interesting stance to take, that A.I.s would be able to feel psychological stress but not physical pain... As I think the two are sort of alone the same spectrum. 

There are people who can't feel pain, patients with C.I.P.A.. But, they're inability to feel pain is a major liability and they sustain severe injuries from things like eating their food before it's cooled off or tripping and landing in awkward positions because they don't have the proper tactile feedback to intuitively know how to brace for a fall... I wouldn't want an android like that, it would get broken all the time. 

Well, our original question was whether and upon whom the Engineers would seek revenge. As some proposed they might seek revenge on David, I mostly just wanted to point out that Walter is also a possible contender. And that I personally do think it would be physically possible to exact revenge on an android. 

However, I do question whether torturing and seeking revenge and such is the sort of thing an advanced civilization like the Engineers would be likely to do. 

I do think that they would seek to annihilate humanity, but I think that it would be out of a desire to eliminate the threat posed by us, not out of revenge per se. 

So, to the matter of Walter and duty to humanity and trying to putting a stop to David's horror show... Well, I think that the Engineers would pose an even bigger threat to humanity than David does.  

And to your point about whether the Engineers would be able to understand David's notes, I think a lot of them were sketches which were pretty self explanatory. Also, I think, that with English being descended from their own language and with Engineers being much more advanced than humans, it wouldn't be too hard for them to figure out English. 

@dk

Interesting take regarding Resurrection. I like it. 

All very interesting points to be sure and there is the very problem with real computer science / and the science fiction of it......

There are many layers in cake we are all referring to. Some of them are more connected to others, and some are definitely not connected at all. Some are near the bottom, some in the middle and some are most definitely at the top.

This concept is simple enough and yet the arguments persist whether machines in the form of synthetics designed by humans feel pain...I think the synthetic humanoid science fiction character "David" says it best
at  time index 1:40, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgJs7uluwlU

"I understand human emotions although I do not feel them myself. This allows me to be more efficient and capable and makes it more easy for my human counterparts to interact with me." 

Do not misunderstand this graphic....this is simulation not conception - and it is also a science fiction contradiction....simulating "real emotion"?
Do not get stuck on the word "real" and you will be ok. David cannot really love anything or anyone anymore than he can hate them or get mad at them.

So that answers that question completely...the machine no mater how close or complex it is to a real human being in the science fictional world of Alien says "I feel no emotion." These are highly advanced fictional machines that simulate humans to interact with them in this context only.

It does not mean that David feels the emotive pain or any other real pain simulated or not. A machine can only do what a machine is designed to do. That fictional machine can simulate the qualities of being like a human so the humans around it feel more comfortable and are able to do their jobs at a higher level of operation in turn. 

The layers of the cake are connected only by causality and yet there are these misperceived distinctions / delusions (something that is not really there) connections that are not present as in the persistent misconception that David feels pain....when he is not designed to feel it....he does not have the programming for it first of all. Second it would interfere with the entire mission's success...third if part of his programming did get damaged you are then stuck with an emotional machine that cannot do its job correctly....fourth that is the reason WY computer engineers have these very advanced humanoids only simulate emotion.....

I will not persist either with entertaining the fictional idea that is not in David's programming obviously and his ability to only simulate these emotions and not feel pain. 

The construct of why human emotions exist and the human biology that regulates them are well understood through 21st century biology and physiology....so I will not waste any of our time going into the autonomic nervous system nor the parasympathetic nervous system as it relates to human biology and evolution....these fight or flight human biological systems and the emotions associated with their behaviors is all well beyond the scope of this topic as is any notion that the WY computer engineers programmed these very same primeval emotions into David so he would eventually "feel the pain of it all enough" to rebel and retaliate against them????

These are delusions.....wishful thinking....a type of unnecessary projection about nothing useful.

The WY computer programmers control their machines....their machines are not designed by them to turn around and turn against them, then control them. What purpose would that serve - NONE???.....ENOUGH SPECULATIVE NONSENSE!

This other idea floating around somewhere in the layers of the cake as well is equally as shameful that a several billion year old civilization, such as the engineers, could not deconstruct something humans made in just 100 years. More delusions about the fictional aspects of these films and what is depicted in them.

I did not write these films.....there are obvious plot holes and contradictions in them as wide and as infinite as the universe.

However, these films are entertaining up to a certain point and then the real science of it all comes to light...pointing out the real complications when trying to simulate what might happen when all these plot elements come together. 

I think fighting something a couple thousand years more advanced would be difficult enough not several billion. 

These films are designed for a range of audience members....some of the concepts are deconstructed just enough so that a maximum amount of the audience can relate to the ideas presented - so that massive amounts of paper can be separated from inside their pockets.

Does anyone really think studios care enough to get any of the real science correct....please some more "science fiction." It is all about deceiving you in the right way for you to pay them and you to maybe enjoy it as entertainment. Please do not confuse the two. You all willingly know you are going into this to be deceived by what you know to be not true.

Now some are arguing that the deceptions depicted there in is not real enough in the right scientific ways.

@Blackant

I think you make a SOLID CASE...

Indeed i pointed out the same with my previous posts that a A.I could MIMIC a Emotion or Pain but would NOT actually Suffer with them the same as we do.

If we advanced to the point we could give a Machine Pain from Stimuli like we can FEEL then we have to ask to WHAT purpose?  It would kind of Defeat the Point/Advantage of Creating a Machine/Robot.

Unless the Creators merely aim to Replicate this to merely PROVE they can Re-Create it and thus play GOD

Emotion is another thing you would NOT want your Machines to have, again it would go against the Advantage that a Machine would have in its Application.

Giving Machines Emotions that could be Identical or CLOSE to how we FEEL would be VERY STUPID....

But again such a Achievement would go towards showing the Advancements that Mankind can achieve... "WE ARE THE GODS NOW"

So this brings us down to the DAVID 8 Advert... indeed it shows these Models can Mimic Emotion and Understand Emotions but they CANT FEEL them.

I think with David from the Prequels he is more Weylands own Personal Synthetic and so he maybe had Different Programing and had gained or been Programed to feel Emotion or Interpret it more than the other Models... that would lead to the PERSONALITY DISORDERS we see with him.  He seems very BROKEN.

I think the THING to remember is we are talking about Walter/David in Context to the Franchise which is SCI-FI and so we are NOT talking about Science Fact.

And so with Sci-Fi you can PUSH past any Scientific Boundaries as its FICTION...

I mean look at STAR TREK... that clearly goes against one of Scotty's well known Quotes

As far as Reality we really cant be 100% sure what the Future Holds....   there are things we can do NOW and have NOW that 50, never-mind 100 Years ago you would have been MOCKED for even Suggesting...

on the FLIP-SIDE if we look at Sci-Fi from 40-50+ Years ago some of the Stuff Depicted in the Future that we have PAST or are NEAR too are we are NO-WHERE near as Advanced as that NOW...  But then somethings shown we are MORE so Advanced than shown in the 70's etc (but these are only Limitations to Special Effects and Production at the Time... for example the Computers and Screens in ALIEN are NOT as Advanced as we have NOW).

So if we look at Advanced A.I/Robots in the Context of Reality, who knows WHAT we can Achieve in 50, 100, 200 Years......  but EVEN and its a BIG EVEN....

If we COULD Create Robots with Emotions and can Feel Pain then there would be NO REAL Purpose....

Other than to do so BECAUSE.... we CAN... and so to SHOW OFF how FAR we can Advance Technology.... such a Endeavor would have Procedures and Protocols to Safeguard against Problems.... but even trying to give a A.I Emotions and Pain could be a HUBRIS.

"I do question whether torturing and seeking revenge and such is the sort of thing an advanced civilization like the Engineers would be likely to do"

I think that is a Great Point... it was something i was going to add before... in that i cant really see the Engineers Toying with Walter or David.... they would want the Threat taken Care off as Quick and Efficient as Possible.

Which brings us to the Engineers method of Resetting Worlds.. I have mentioned this a Number of times before, when we look at the Engineers as Genetic Gardeners of Life who would Seed/Evolve Worlds then the GOO as shown in the Sacrificial Scene and more so if we look at HOW the Scarabs worked on Spaights Drafts... then these are a Great Tool to Mutate/Evolve Life.

So with the Sacrificial Goo we see the Ingestion of this Substance indeed KILLS the Engineer, from this it either Provides the Building Blocks to Start Life or a Catalyst to Evolve Life.

So i think if you wanted to RESET a world then dropping down URNS that are Filled with the Sacrificial Goo make more Sense!  This FITS the Purpose of the Engineers Work.

Using something that Creates Horrors and even Experimenting to Create Horrors makes NO sense... Unless those Engineers Specifically had a Desire and Sinister thinking behind it!

The same applies with David.... if he wanted to Eradicate Mankind then doing what he did to the Engineers would be the Answer..... but if his Intentions are NOW to Create a Horrific Beast to Unleash on Mankind we have to look at his Dark Reasons for doing this instead of the Black Goo..

And so such Motives may also had drove some Engineers to Conduct their Horror Show on LV-223.

So maybe some Engineers could look at INFLICTING some Suffering rather than opting for the QUICK KILL Method.

Sacrificial Goo if poured Thousands of Gallons would KILL off a City.... from this LIFE would be RESET... the Black Goo under certain Circumstances leads to Horrors!

The Choice in using a Punishment/Weapon that leads to more Suffering rather than being more Quick and Effective can Sometimes be down to those who WISH to use this Method to bring about Suffering and Fear!

So a lot depends on HOW the Discovery of the Destruction on Planet 4 by the Engineers has effected them.... would they want a Quick Kill aka a NUKE option... (Juggernauts/Black Goo from LV-223) or would they want to INFLICT suffering?

@BlackAnt

You are claiming that (as David states in the David 8 promotional video) David does not feel emotion, but only "simulates" emotion for the comfort of his human colleagues. 

But, I don't think that it's possible for anyone, including David or his own programmers, to make a meaningful distinction between "real" and "simulated" emotion. 

Internal experiences are not observable or quantifiable, they are only defined by the behaviors associated with them. 

This is even the case among human beings. There is nothing inside the human brain that you can pin down and say "Oh, look at that, there it is, the thing that's missing from machines. The subjective experience of emotions."

Take the human brain apart and it's all just chemical and physical clockworks. 

I can't observe whether what I call happiness is the same as what you call happiness. 

So, it's all well and good for a person to say "I don't feel emotions the way others do, I'm just pretending to feel them." Even the person making such a statement does not have any way of knowing if his internal experiences resemble those of others.

But, you can observe his behaviors and conclude whatever experiences he avoids are aversive to him and whatever experiences he seeks are rewarding. 

We're programmed by evolution to seek experiences that have been beneficial to us and avoid those which have been harmful. 

Why does David seek to make his human colleagues more comfortable by imitating their emotions? Because he's programmed to try and put his colleagues at ease and therefore you can say it's a rewarding experience for him.

(Also, I would love to use examples from the novelization which do describe Walter's internal experiences, however I know there is some question regarding whether the novels are canon to the series) 

And again, I think part of the point is that David's programming had unforeseen results . 

@BigDave

I think the Engineers would probably go with the quickest and most effective method of eliminating humanity, at their disposal. Which might incidentally be some horrifying method, but that wouldn't be the main objective. 

For an advanced/rational civilization, I would expect that inflicting fear and punishment would be intended as a deterrent and if there's no one left to deter, there wouldn't be much point in going out of their way to inflict suffering. But if the black goo is the most effective method of eliminating the threat humanity poses then I think they might consider that a reasonable option. Then maybe they'd start again and make something new. 

David, well, I feel he has entirely different (emotionally driven) motives from the Engineers. He has a lust for power and superiority and views himself as the next Ozymandias. He is not above inflicting suffering for its own sake, clearly. 

I think when it comes down to David 8 Models i still think the Intention was to SHOW they can Understand Emotions to better READ a Human and to Mimic some of them as Responses to make them FEEL more Comfortable.

But David from Prometheus seemed a WHOLE Different Kettle of Fish.

A Number of Times you got the Impression that some of the THINGS that was said to and about him had STRUCK a Nerve... it seemed that they had UPSET Him.... So he Definitely could FEEL EMOTION

He also said to Dr Shaw that EVERYONE wants their Parents Dead, which tells us that David knows he has to SERVE his Master/Father but he is NOT too pleased with having to do that and how he is TREATED... which is WHY when Weyland Dies its has he said to Dr Shaw.... he will be FREE...

These are things that a None-Sentient A.I would NOT say, and again seems to indicate that David has Feelings, Desires, Dreams and Ambitions.

With the Alien Covenant Prologue we see more Evidence of this, and also from the David we see in Alien Covenant and so its likely that Weyland had Permitted his Personal David to have more Emotion etc...  while the Produced Models would have more Restrictions.  But it would seem even these other Davids had more Emotion well how they could Interpret them that become a Complication, that was CHANGED with the Walter Model.

Regarding ALIEN RESURRECTION

I think the Destruction on Earth more likely came about due to Complications from A.I when you have A.I creating its OWN Sub-Creation (Autons) this could be a Sign of the Synthetics becoming Sentient.... and if their OWN creation the AUTONS would also become Sentient and Rebellious then this is a Recipe for Conflict.

And so i had Assumed and it has not changed in my Take on the Situation, that on Earth in the Future within the Franchise we have a Conflict were Mankind, Synthetics and Autons are all Fighting for CONTROL over the Planet.

It could be SHOWN that it was a Result of the Engineers... but i think that depends on HOW would the Engineers go about to Destroy the Earth!

Juggernauts and Black Goo could do the JOB... but i think looking at HOW much more Advanced we are in ALIENS then in Hundreds of Years Time we would surely have Weapons that can Prevent the Juggernauts from doing their JOB in a Effective Way.

This would mean the Engineers would have to DEPLOY some kind of Ships that can DESTROY any Defenses we have so that then they could SEND IN the Bombers with the Chemical Warfare.

Regarding the Engineers having a Sinister Side i think we cant rule out some of them having a HATRED or even being Fascinated in the Horrors that the Black Goo can Create.

Otherwise if it is PURELY to Destroy then the Deacon and Xenomorph are POINTLESS!     No Need when you have the BLACK GOO...

So there has to be some other Desire and Fascination with such Horrors to Warrant their Creation..

I suspect the LV-223/Prometheus Engineers in that Context is a ARC that is similar to what we see with David...  and so David is in Effect the same as those Prometheus Engineers.

Yes, we can definitely see in Prometheus that many things Dr. Holloway said struck a nerve with David (hence the reason he chose Holloway as his target for the black goo). 

We also clearly see that he has an affinity for Dr. Shaw, and we get the impression that he experiences jealousy and resentment when he learns that Shaw's closeness with Holloway has made her a collateral target. 

David is clearly an emotional being.

As to conflict between humans and autons... (and I think the whole story arc with the autons, showing that synthetics had the ability and desire to reproduce, was also intended to cement the idea of synthetics as sentient beings.)

I think it would have been humans causing most of the destruction in that case because, as I recall (and I may need to go back and re-watch Resurrection), Autons were more empathetic and compassionate than humans. 

"Regarding the Engineers having a Sinister Side i think we cant rule out some of them having a HATRED or even being Fascinated in the Horrors that the Black Goo can Create."

Well, there are two possibilities.

Either the Engineers have designed the Black Goo for its practicality in destroying and creating life and are just indifferent to the horrors it creates, as a sort of side-effect. 

Or, yes, perhaps they designed it that way intentionally and they do in fact have a fascination with inflicting suffering. 

I suppose I do make a big assumption in thinking scientific advancement and aversion to unnecessary violence would go hand in hand.

The Engineers may be scientifically advanced but not share the same values that we would consider socially advanced. 

"Autons were more empathetic and compassionate than humans"

Call seemed that way but who knows if she had a Agenda.. it seemed SHE wanted to insure the Destruction of the Xenomorph but who knows if there could be a Twist to that Tail....   But i think that with the Autons if they are Sentient then they like US could have different Factions or maybe they could all be PART of some Greater Good...I  certainly think Exploring the Autons would have been Interesting.

Regarding the Destruction of Earth it could be likely a LOT of the Damage could be the Result of Mankind, The Potential Danger to the Earth is something that Mankind has a lot of say in it... we certainly are favorites to Account for our OWN downfall thats for sure.

"Either the Engineers have designed the Black Goo for its practicality in destroying and creating life"

I think this is the IMPORTANT thing and its something that has likely Changed since the Inception of the Idea (Scarabs) it now has become something more of a McGuffin now we have to ACCEPT that the stuff the Sacrificial Engineer had Consumed and the Contents of the Urns are the SAME THING...

A Radical A.I Pathogen.... does that imply it can be Programed to Cause what kind of Destruction or Rebirth we see?  If so then to go and Program it to Perform the same Effect that we see at the START of Prometheus would be the BEST WEAPON to use on a World that you wish to RESET.

You could Assume and Consider that a Ancient Advanced Race would NOT have any Sinister Motives this is a Principle in Theorizing that any ALIEN Civilization that would Visit Earth would surely be Peaceful, and had reached Peace themselves because INNER CONFLICT and not being on the same PAGE is what could HOLD a World/Species back from Galactic Space Travel and Colonization.

But then with a Race that is more Advanced than us, they would maybe Consider us as Insignificant and that they would Value our Life only as much as we Value a Lab Monkey. (which would indicate that some of them would Value our Lives).

I think if we looked at the Extended Sacrificial Scene then those Engineers looked like their Action was more Peaceful for the Greater Good... (But we cant 100% Consider that as Canon because it could be that only a LONE Engineer made it to the Surface).

When we see Planet 4 those Engineers came across as somewhat Benevolent well FAR from a Hostile Species too.

I think Pondering the Relation between Planet 4 and LV-223 Engineers is still Interesting, and also as to WHO wanted us Destroyed...  or are ALL the Engineers singing to the same TUNE?

In regards to the OT...

Then it seems likely the Earth is NOT the only World where the Engineers have Seeded, Evolved and Interacted with other Species they have Created/Engineered.

I think its SAFE to assume the Engineers would Visit these Worlds and even Worlds that are inhabited by Engineers and that they would ONLY allow such Worlds to Obtain a Certain Level of Advancement...  And so if you look at the more Advanced Civilizations on Earth from 1000 AD to 2000 BC then there is NOT a lot of Advancement.

A lot of Change for Mankind has been the last 500 or so Years, and Especially the Last 150 or so.

I think its Safe to Assume the Engineers would Visit and NOT allow Worlds to become more Advanced than we was say 1000 Years ago.... this way they can Contain us and any THREAT that we could pose.

So in Light of Discovering that beings from ONE of the Worlds the Engineers had Influenced have NOT only been able to Traverse Space... and Discovered their Bio-Weapons Facility... but then as a RESULT of that Species has lead to the Destruction on Planet 4.

Then the Engineers would be WANTING to find which World these Intruders came from and to Completely Eradicate them and wherever they have Gone.

Then the Engineers would have some Serious Questions to be asking themselves?

* Do we up our Game and Frequency we go to Check Out the Worlds we have Visited.. to keep more Regular Checks on these Worlds Advancements?

*Do we Need as Many Worlds that we have and should some be Culled as a Precaution?

*Do we Set-Up more closer Permanent Bases on or Near the Worlds we have Influenced?

*Do we need to PULL the PLUG on all our Creations?

Interesting points @BigDave . 

Regarding the Autons, different factions with different agendas could be interesting. They'd make a really good topic for a fic. 

"A Radical A.I Pathogen.... does that imply it can be Programed to Cause what kind of Destruction or Rebirth we see?"

I think that the pathogen can be programmed but, as you said, if they're so much more advanced than us, they might consider us like lab monkeys. Or maybe even like, when people boil a lobster. They don't anesthetize it first or anything. It's not because they're trying to cause it pain, it just isn't even a consideration for them. 

Or maybe like, when you spray a roach with raid, you don't really worry about it too much. You're not trying to exact retribution exactly. Just trying to eliminate a threat. 

I think if I was an Engineer, and I got to Planet 4 and saw what David had done, I think I'd just be like... "Pull the plug on the whole thing." 

But yes, it's a good question to wonder whether all the Engineers are on the same page on things. Maybe they have factions amongst themselves with differing view points. 

You HIT the Nail on the HEAD ;)

It would NOT mean they are Sinister.... but they have to think of the Greater Good for their Agenda (Genetic Space Gardeners) for example you may find a Mouse Cute and Harmless... lets keep ONE as a Pet.... 

But if you ENDED UP with a Mice Infestation you have to then Consider the Harm that they are Causing for you, and you would be LEFT with No Choice but to take out Plans to Eradicate them... Nothing Personal or Malice Involved.

I think you have to look it from the Engineers Perspective... it would seem they would WANT to keep any Worlds they have Civilizations on at a Certain Level of Technology, you would NOT want to ALLOW or see your Sub-Creation gain any Technology that would allow them to GET to other Worlds and Influence those Worlds with their own Culture.... you would ALSO not want them either Advancing to a Equal Footing as yourself or being able to OBTAIN and USE your own Technology.

So we know Mankind does-not Follow the Ways the Engineers would expect from us, and we have been able to Traverse Space, can you imagine if W-Y would turn up to another World the Engineers had Seeded with Humanoids who Technologically are Thousands of Years behind us?

The Engineers would NOT want to see us Influence such Worlds.

We are NOT all Bad.... but with Billions of us, it would be Too Much to try and CHANGE the way we Think/Behave to get us back on Track and Control or get us to Give Up our Technology.... and so the ONLY option is to Pull the Plug

Dr Shaw may think the Engineers were going to be HARSH!  But you have to look at it from their Perspective and ASSUME that we are NOT the only World with Humanoids or Humans.

We are but ONE little Fish Tank with Gold Fish when there are maybe Many More.... so if thats the Case then by Destroying the Earth you are NOT really Completely Eradicating all of your Creation... just the ONE World where its got out of Control!

Even if say the Earth was the ONLY place with Humans or more so the ONLY place with Humanoids....  i think it would be LOGICAL and LIKELY that the Engineers would come to Earth to Collect some Humans before they then go and Plan the Destruction...

They could then take these Humans... gain Children from them and maybe they could KILL the Adults because with the Children you can START AGAIN and Influence them how you wish....

I think its likely the Engineers had done this in the Past.. it makes Sense...

If NOT then it would be too much Hassle to do it NOW with how the Earth is in the Year 2112 but if they come across a Small Colony or a Ship then i think they would TAKE the Humans so they can Reproduce our Species, and take the Babies and maybe its Curtains for the Adults.

Unless as i have mentioned... they ALREADY have other Worlds with Humans or Humanoids much like us... then they would ERADICATE us all. (Earth Originated Humanity)

@BigDave

Lol, I actually used to keep pet rats. They're a joy. 

Well, if the Engineers are going to destroy humanity but scoop up a few easily influenced folks, I think they should go for people in their early 20's, not kids or babies. 

Very young human children are remarkably inefficient compared with the young of other species and are not even able to sleep or eat without a huge amount of assistance. (And if the Engineers are going to make more humanoids, I really think they should work on that aspect, btw. )

Slightly older children, well, you can try to influence them but they're just inherently defiant and rebellious and contrary.  

But 20 year olds, like starting out college age extremely into new idea very open to the thought that everything they've learned so far might be wrong.

Not saying it's a good or a bad thing, but if the Engineers want to start up a colony of human beings and instill a whole new philosophy, that's really the way to go, if you ask me.

Have an Engineer to act as a cool, wise, enlightened professor, and he'll get a lot of people on board. Set up a commune on a new world and teach them that technology leads to all sorts of social ills and should be avoided. 

Heck it could be fun. Everyone just gardens, plays D&D, and tells scary campfire stories. About the evils of technological advancement. And worships the Engineers, I guess?

I think its a Interesting Point as there is a LOT of Effort in Raising Children and Especially Teenage Years ;)

I think you run a Risk with 20 Year Olds though... some may be willing for Change... but they could still have Embedded into them Pre-existing Ideas, Knowledge and Ways.

Maybe you could get them to BUY into your Cult and Ways... maybe with Offering some Good Rewards... but then you would also have to RULE with a IRON FIST to those who STEP out of Line.

But you could Suggest that to a Degree that Religion is Born out of Similar.

I think a Small Number would be worth the Risk, as long as you have the Children and say Embryo's at hand in case this does not go to PLAN!

Free-Will and Knowledge are TWO of the Biggest Themes at Play in the Prequels.  They also Play a Great Role in a Lot of Mythos and Religion.

I understand human emotions although I do not feel them myself.

Even humans can fake it to make it. Humans have a pretty robust history of sociopaths. What else could be expected from an android being programmed by another sociopath?