I would like to use this Topic to discus the Artificial Evolution Aspect that in part i think perhaps we could have seen with Alien Covenants sequel in regards to WHAT it is that David would CREATE. I had ponder if this would be what the Sequel would cover in my Topic Alien: Exodus
But i am using this Topic to assume in part, what kind of Artificial Creation that David could create, taking into account that the Franchise has Focused on Creation, and Pursuit of Perfection.
The END of Alien Covenant we do see David going off to TUCK in the Children, as he said he was going to do after Daniels Discovers WHO he really is.. We can assume this was the Face Huggers but we see that David distributes these among the Human Embryos. As speculated with the other Topic Alien: Exodus i was drawn to the Plot for Alien Covenants sequel could revolve around David attempting to Evolve/Engineer those Human Embryos into a New Race.
The Engineering aspect is something that the Prequels are quite based off, our Engineers indeed are also Genetic Engineers and Manipulators, and if we look at Peter Weyland and the kinds of Feats his Company had been working on, and indeed what Various Genetic Engineering Companies could be working on in such a FUTURE.
Then Genetically Altering the Human Genome is something i feel its a matter of time before we see Massive Advancements, i do suspect in the REAL WORLD this would likely be to Genetically Remove Genetic Defects and Flaws from Embryos to Eliminate Potential Disabilities and Dieseases that would IMPACT the Life-Style and Longevity of Human Genes that would otherwise be drastically impacted by various Genetic Disorders.
Would we EVER see such Genetic Engineering take a more Pursuit of Perfection Avenue? Currently i think the Moral Compass is something that would prevent that, and so preventing some Genetic Disorders/Disabilities is ONE THING... but to attempt to create the Perfect Designer Babies is ANOTHER....
But none the less, when Genetic Engineering Evolves to the point of being able to Enhance our Genomes, you have to wonder IF some Governments/Factions would be tempted or even consider the Benefits of doing such a thing... Especially for Military Purposes, because Creating the Perfect Super Solider would hold some Great Benefits.
Its interesting to Ponder Quite HOW-FAR in future we could Engineer Perfect Traits in the Human Genome, where we could Create Children with the Athleticism of our Best Athletes in Terms of Strength, Power, Speed, Agility and then combine that with High IQ Levels of Intelligence that our World Best have.. In addition to being able to Eradicate Genetic Flaws, and potentially also have Immunity to many Ailments a Human could suffer.
Such Engineering is NOT beyond the realms of possibility NOW.
But then we can enter the Sci-Fi world of taking this Further by IF we could enhance Genomes/Traits that would give us Genetics and Abilities of other Organisms on Earth.
Such as Improving our Senses.... Particularity Eye-Sight, Hearing and Smell. Also the potential to Engineer Pain Receptors so that we can in effect TURN OFF Pain.
Another Aspect would be the Engineering of our Bodies Cells that Age, could we eventually Engineer a way to reduce the Age Process of the Human Body? And slow down the rate our Organs degrade/age?
Various Sci-Fi movies have covered such Engineering, which we have seen in Blade Runner with the Replicants, and also movies like Morgan and in these we are shown that Artificially Engineered Organic Beings also are Grown Faster, they Mature from Embryo to Adult in Vastly Quicker Times, something a number of Cloning Movies cover... which include ALIEN: Resurrection with the Ripley 8 Clones.
Within Context to the Franchise, we could ponder HOW-FAR could David take such Engineering with the Engineers Secrets? what kind of STAR-CHILD could he create from Engineering those Embryos?
Looking at our Engineers too, as its indicate those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals, its possible that Ridley Scott was showing us that the Prometheus Engineers are what happens when our Planet 4 Engineers have Genetically tried to Perfect themselves in the past, or created a Genetically Perfect version of themselves.
What Evolution had lead to Mankind, considering Engineers intervention and what kind of Evolution could David Achieve with those Embryos?
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
We could discus Genetic Evolution in context away from the Franchise too!
But in regards to what David could Create from those Embryos or consider what the Engineers could Manipulate with a Humanoid, then indeed we could see beings that are.
*Immune to Most Genetic Ailments, Disorders and Diseases.
*Reduced Aging Process, maybe some degree of Organic Regeneration.
*Superior Strength that is 4-6X that of a Average Man
*Superior Speed and Agility that is 2-3X Faster than a Average Man
*Superior Intelligence that is 2-3X Greater than a Average Man
*Improved Senses which include Eyesight, Hearing and Smell
*Improved/Engineered ability Respiratory wise, to survive longer periods without Oxygen and in Environments with Less Oxygen.
Maybe even Engineering a Larger Stature from a Engineered Being?
Surely it looks like maybe those Planet 4 Engineers had done this before to give us those Prometheus Engineers, and i do speculate that David would attempt to create a Humanoid that is more superior to Humans, Engineers and those Enhanced Prometheus Engineers.
Could some kinds of Evolution also bring about some kind of Telepathy Communication? And indeed other Special Abilities such as Telekinesis/Psychokinesis.
What a Perfect Being that would make... what a Perfect HOST for a Xenomorph like Parasite too.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
BigDave Probably David won't engineer nothing fancy because of budgetary constraints. He most tighten the belt.
Certainly would seem he would have NO budget from Disney ;)
Its interesting to ponder what RS may have planned, because it was NOT going to be about Xenomorphs... and Budget Wise a movie set on a Planet, that has Humanoids is Financially Cheaper than Space Scenes and Complex very Alien Organisms like the Xenomorphs.
Its interesting to ponder what makes those Planet 4 Engineers and Prometheus Engineers different, many have concluded or pondered that those Planet 4 Engineers have to be Human/Engineer Hybrids, because they look so much LESS Godlike than the Engineers in Prometheus.
But thats if you look at the Top Down Approach of GOD Creators, vs Creations... we see Weyland was a Creator too, but is he more Godlike than his Creation David?
So indeed its likely those Prometheus Engineers were Enhanced, Augmented beings. I dont think we are likely to ever explore such things about the Engineers, or what ever David would create in Future..... i think such things are Dead as far as the Franchise.
I think such things are always fun to speculate about, even in regards to REAL-LIFE implications... which have been covered in a number of Sci-Fi movies and Shows... so indeed if Mankind Engineered Perfect Humans, with Enhanced Traits, for the Purpose of Military or as Servants/Slave Work Force..
The Hubris is always there of these beings, Rebelling and Overthrowing their Creators, and IF these beings can Reproduce then we could be in TROUBLE..
Certainly Interesting themes, that The Planet of the Apes also cover in part.. If Mankind attempted to Create Hybrid Apes/Humans that gain Human Intelligence... then a REAL WORLD scenario like the Planet of the Apes could happen.. but NOT if we Destroyed them before they GOT out of hand.
Which Mirrors really maybe WHY the Engineers would have wanted us Destroyed. And we could certainly ponder if such Hubris had caused the downfall of the Engineers, and ponder was their conflict between the Planet 4 and LV-223 kinds?
Would have been interesting to see David Engineer a NEW Human Race, and what Truths/Lies he would tell them to keep them in Check... and then watch this GO TO POT when other Humans Turn up and Revelations that come from this.
But in regards to the Topic... it would be interested to see HOW FAR would David Evolve those Embryos and would they use some Unused Concepts (Engineer Concepts, and Engineer/Fifield Mutations) for Inspiration to what kind of Appearance these Humans may have had?
As in maybe use some of the Elongated Head Aspect that we never quite saw in our Engineers in the Prequels.
This Elongated Head could be Engineered to cater for a Higher Capacity Brain/Intelligence and Telepathy/Telekinesis/Psychokinesis.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
I am also very intrigued by this storyline. What will happen to the colonists? What are Davids plans?
I think it depends on when the story takes place. Is it 2 years? 5 or even 15? In the beginning there might be survivors, but over the following years, I dont think a lot will survive.
The elongated head concept was originally meant to show the effects of the black pathogen metamorphizing an engineer into a Xenomorph; essentially a re-realizing of what was originally intended to be Fifield's transformed state in Prometheus when he attacks the Prometheus' hangar bay.
I believe this concept of a Xenomorph being born from the metamorphization of a human (or otherwise) host, would be an interesting way to show the adaptive traits of the Xenomorph and its reproduction, as already explored in Prometheus/Alien: Covenant.
Also, considering Davids genocidal feelings towards humankind I struggle to believe he would use the 2000 colonists of the USSCS Covenant for anything more than raw materials and fodder for the organism he re-created on the Engineer Sanctuary Planet (Planet 4).
Indeed many of the Elongated Head Concepts are from the effects of the Black Goo, there was a few Engineer Concepts from Prometheus/Alien Engineers where our Engineers where depicted as having more Elongated Heads at some of the Conceptual Stages of Design, some also that lacked any External Ear Structure.
I was drawn to the Potential for David to Engineer his own Humanoids from Ridely Scotts comments about the sequel to Alien Covenant, that would NOT be about the Xenomorph, and would be about AI and what KIND of a World David would create. Considering that he also went on to mention that Replicants are AI too, means we are not just talking about Robots/Synthetics.
So i was wondering if David would be creating something, that would not be his Xenomorphs, and looking at some of the comments that David had made "if we are kind, it would be a kind World" to Daniels... Then i do think that Genetically Altering the Human Embryos would constitute to a kind of AI (Artificially Created/Augmented)
If David does this, then we have to wonder if he would also like to incorporate traits from the Xenomorph into his experiments. So maybe a Elongated Head could allow for a different Brain/Organs that could aid in some of the kinds of Receptive/Communication elements of the Xenomorphs Brain.
This is a interesting Concept to look at, which seems to indicate mainly one of TWO things... are those Humanoids in the Background being Farmed for Embryos for use for Davids Experiments? But we could also ask are those Humanoids grown from those Embryos.
We do see David having some kind of Genocidal outlook towards the Engineers and Mankind, but maybe that would not rule out him trying to CREATE his own Enhanced Humans.
When i look at Ridley Scotts TV Series Raised by Wolves, it does make me wonder if some of this Plot, is what he in part had planned for Origae-6 and David.. and so David raising Children could be interesting in itself... when we add the AI aspect that the movie was supposed to be about, i think the AI aspect would be in the form of Artificially Modifying those Embryos.
As for the Adult Colonist, maybe he needs a number to Build the Colony, and then indeed i think potentially he would then have other PLANS for them...
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"I am also very intrigued by this storyline. What will happen to the colonists? What are Davids plans?"
This was a interesting thing to ponder, and some have looked into Ridley Scotts comments and looked at Alien Covenant and assume David will head to LV-426 and turn those Colonist into Xenomorphs...
However RS has said the Next movie would NOT be about the Xenomorph, but AI and what kind of World David would Create, which some may think it must be just about David and his Creations or the AI aspect must mean more Davids.
But i interpret it as though he would be going to Origae-6 which means they wont get there until the year 2112 and so we have 10 years to pass by from this point until the Nostromo arrives at LV-426... looking at the Raised by Wolves plot i think this could have been in part, plans for Alien Covenants sequel.... But 10 years to raise Children is not a long time, before we have to arrive at the Derelict.
However Engineered Embryos could be modified to have Greatly Increased Growth Rates... like we see in a number of movies that deal with Clones. So i speculate David would have a Colony of Engineered Children on Origae-6 before a Human Ship arrives and this causes problems... then i feel a Engineer Ship and Weyland-Yutani Military/Science Ship arrive at the Final Act.
Then things go to POT! have to bare in mind that RS had said there would be 2-3 more movies after Alien Covenant before we arrive at ALIEN.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
“Probably David won't engineer nothing fancy because of budgetary constraints. He most tighten the belt.”
I don’t know why but that response is fun, thanks. If they would not have made android focused crap like AC (although there are things about it that I find alright, mostly the first half of the movie until it becomes that David show) they probably would not be in this situation.
“Its interesting to ponder what RS may have planned, because it was NOT going to be about Xenomorphs...”
Probably more android boring things. I do not want him to interfere with the story because then we get things like Alien Covenant which has a lot of crap in it, mostly after they get to David’s place. Fluting androids? Yeah right ;)
“I dont think we are likely to ever explore such things about the Engineers, or what ever David would create in Future..... i think such things are Dead as far as the Franchise.”
That’s too bad about the Engineers but thanks for the fact that they would most likely stop the David stuff.
“Certainly Interesting themes, that The Planet of the Apes also cover in part..”
Keep it to those things then, the theme is alright and the characters are probably better but don’t push that into Alien and focus on an android.
To see how humans develop seems interesting but I don’t care about the android part, zero interest in that.
"“Certainly Interesting themes, that The Planet of the Apes also cover in part..”
Keep it to those things then, the theme is alright and the characters are probably better but don’t push that into Alien and focus on an android.
I can see this is one of the things that causes a split in the Fanbase, some may like those Themes, some do-not and while interesting they do seem to be a Distraction to what many fans would expect the Franchise to be about which is usually Xenomorphs!
But as you have mentioned before, a Great Deal of what made the Franchise work was seeing Human Characters placed in Jeopardy and Peril in Situations they are NOT Equipped or Prepared to Deal With.
Prometheus in part attempted this, Alien Covenant definitely did this, HOWEVER... the Characters just never connected as good with the viewer as they did from Alien, Aliens and Alien 3. Alien Resurrection is a example of it just NOT working right, we just could not connect to the Characters as well as the First 3 Movies.. and this Trend Continued with the AVP movies and Prequels.
The AI element was likely to be about Artificially Created/Engineered Humanoids.
While Interesting to some, i think a point of concern would be IF our viewers can have any connection to a Genetically Engineered Species, as opposed to one with Weaknesses and Flaws.
We could have David Killed off... and have the World inhabited with Perfected Humans, the Jeopardy would have to come in the Form of a Incoming Group of Humans who expect to see the Colony inhabited by the Covenants Colonist...but instead find its inhabited by Engineered Human Embryos.
This would WORK.. Provided we have these Engineered Humans maybe Welcome the incoming Humans, but then have a reveal that these Engineered Humans have a very Sinister Plan for the Humans.... maybe Hold Sacrificial Rituals, for Davids Xenomorphs... or even in the Name of David... but some Fans may-not like this as it may put some Emphasis on David again.
Something like this could have been done for Alien Covenant... imagine if Dr Shaws Corpse was found hanging up against a Wall, in Cruciform Pose, with a Empty Egg to her Bottom Left, and a Dead Face Hugger to the Bottom Left, so she represents the MURAL in Prometheus a little. With maybe a Trap Door, that would open in Front of this Mural/Tomb of Dr Shaws and send Human Crew down below into the Room with the Eggs.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
The Context to this Topic was discussing Genetic Engineering of a Humanoid. It does-not have to be about David.
So it could go the route of Engineered Humans, but as i said in the other post prior, its IF we can make a connection with them and so its likely better to have them as the Antagonist against a incoming unsuspecting Human Ship/Crew.
Imagine they (Humans) arrive at the Colony, they see a Colony Built/Set up, that seemed to be Void of Technology for the most part and looking more like a Med-evil Settlement and they notice a lot of Religious Architecture like a Church, Crosses.
They dont see any Humans... they enter the Wooden Church and see a Cross/Mural with either David 8's Body Attached... as the Christ! or a Effigy.
Then the Engineered Humans could enter and while they look different they could claim they are peaceful, and come up with some Reason for WHAT this place is, and about HOW they was Engineered to Survive some Outbreak that killed off the Normal Humans. Then latter we could reveal a Sinister Motive to these Engineered Humans.
OR what if those Engineered Humans are told lies about WHO Mankind are, and the Colonist... how would they feel when beings who are like them but NOT like them turn up, and INFORM those Engineered Humanoids about the Covenant Mission and WHO Mankind are...
HOW would those Humanoids respond to discovering that this WORLD was intended as a NEW Paradise for Earth's Humans and NOT a World Created for them by their GOD David?
If these Humanoids had been brought up with a kind of Religion and set of Rules by David, how would those Humanoids Feel if the Humans who turn up, show them that their GOD/Creator is a Creation of the Humans to Serve, and that Humans are somewhat special and divine, compared to a bunch of a Mad Robots Experiments that these Humanoids on Origae-6 are...
This would be especially interesting of the incoming Humans are also Very Religious like Oram and Dr Shaw and would view the World David has Created with he Church, the Crosses as a MOCKERY... And we have to ASK how would those Humanoids Respond to the Humans claiming their Entire Culture is a SHAME/LIE and Mockery, and the Humans Religion is TRUTH.
HOW would a Humanoid Species that had David as their God/Creator react when say a Walter Model arrives with those Humans and Proclaims the Humans are Correct, and REVELATION that David is merely just a TOOL, a SERVANT.. Gone AWOL!
These are just how interesting a sequel could have been, that does-not have to be about Xenomorphs... my idea which is Alien Ascension is very much about the Above... only David is ALIVE and not Dead... but you could KILL him off screen... but have the Origae-6 Humanoids worship him as a GOD.. But it would not have to revolve around Fasbenders.. it would be more about Creation, Religion and what impact Faith/Religion, and Rituals have on a RACE and then what happens when those Beliefs proven to be a SHAM or contradicted.
HOWEVER.. again this would be steering away from what a ALIEN movie should be about, but it could SET-UP a sequel that introduces the Engineers and Xenomorphs, or they appear in the Final Act.. where it sets up a more ALIEN movie NEXT!
I think this may be the Plans RS had... But yes it would not be very ALIEN for what the Fans want... the Problem is PROMETHEUS was started to Steer Away from ALIEN.
By Virtue of the Studio wanting to connect to ALIEN and give the Fans Xenomorphs, then all the Prometheus/Engineers stuff should have been placed as 3rd Fiddle to Xenomorphs and Humans Running from Said Xenomorphs.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Finally i will add...
The Plot i Outline above, could maybe even be the TRUTH to our Creation in light of where the Franchise could have gone.. Replace those Engineered Humanoids with Mankind, Replace David with the Engineers... and well the Incoming Humans with Who-Ever Created the Engineers to reveal the SHAM of their Creation (Engineers) and thus TRUTH about our Creation being just the Creation by some Rogue Engineered Humanoids who are NOT Gods!
This is how Prometheus 2 could have gone, and certainly the Direction i was taking with my Prometheus 3 (my Prometheus 2 was based mainly on Earth/Mars).
Back to the OT...
In context to Engineered Beings... we could explore this via the Engineers, and explore WHY those LV-223 and Planet 4 Engineers are different, and open up a Whole History there.
I am led to think those LV-223 Engineers are just the Replicants of the Engineer Society, maybe the LV-223 Engineers Rebelled and this caused some Ancient Conflict?
Certainly looking back at the OT... and it applies to Predator Franchise too.... ONCE Species goes about to Genetically Alter and Improve their own Species, to Create a Superior Version, and Especially if this Superior Version is created to Serve some Purpose...
The HUBRIS is there for the Sub-Created to Rebel and become the Greatest Threat to their Creators/Engineers. And i think this kind of Theme was one of the Big Ones that Ridley Scott wanted to explore...
But Fans wanted Xenomorphs, Queens and maybe Ripley's!
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
Stop it NOW! You are totally obsessed with your "fanboys, queens and Ripley" hate in ALL treads. And "xenomorph", of course - it's funny, because Alien franchise all around xenomorph. Engineers, WY, Androids, ect. - just a parts.
And stop repeat Ridley's quotes and wishes in ALL treads. Free your mind for your ideas!
You keep talking about two sequels for AC. Well, do you really think that 2 hour sci-fi version of The Village will have successful? And true AC sequel/Alien prequel will be third film? Really? I think - for David's world/village 10-30 minutes is more than enough! You really think that AI/AI world incompatible with xenomorphs? Why? Because Ridley said so? Yeah, yeah, you don't won't xeno in next film, and leave Engineers for third film. But - what we have? David, his village and humans from Earth? Looks interesting... or not?!
Now - I stop it.
In first. You need ask - what is AI?
In second. Don't repeat for Ridley "AI formula". Perhaps he himself doesn't know about it.
Artificial Intelligence =/= Artificial Body.
David can create anything life forms (how - main question, we still have no answer - how he create the eggs, maybe he don't)
What difference between AI and Natural Intelligence? Is there a difference?
"Within Context to the Franchise, we could ponder HOW-FAR could David take such Engineering with the Engineers Secrets? what kind of STAR-CHILD could he create from Engineering those Embryos?"
We all know - he create a Ripley! Only she stronger than David's aliens.
Sorry, I want to talk more about this interesting ideas, but your alien hate in your comments switches all attention.
We are on the ALIEN: COVENANT forum here, so naturally much of the discussion is Ridley Scott & his prequel-sequels centric.
The population of this site alone differ on many aspects of the Franchise, but at the end of the day we are mostly people who care passionately about it, whilst retaining respect for one another.
I have never considered BigDave a hater of anything about the franchise, nor any branch of the Alien Fandom. He has lots of ideas about where the story could go & simply enjoys sharing, exploring & expressing them. In fact, I would say that he is considered a great ambassador for the site. He's well known & has been quoted by other websites/publications.
We all know that because of some criticism on Facebook, Twitter etc the tone & direction of Prometheus' sequel/s changed. Fox & Ridley paid attention to those criticisms, that's all Dave is pointing out.
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
Lone but those changes that they made were for the worse, even though they went in for the nostalgia cash. What should they now? As for Big Dave he does seem not to be able to accept Shaw for anything other than a Xeno birthing machine... so you could be my guest on what is that.
Yes I wholeheartedly agree, I felt the changes made Covenant totally ineffective as a sequel. My main gripe with it is that it's not what it should or could have been because everyone backed down on where the story intended to go.
Well, Dave is expanding upon what the story hinted at regarding Shaw. Given Fox & Brandywine cultivated what became a pretty toxic relationship with Giger & his estate over the years, Ridley Scott was severely limited regarding full on Giger design elements.
I believe that's why Shaw's character became nothing more than a museum exhibit. So again, not what it should or could have been.
"Let The Cosmic Incubation Begin" ~ H.R. Giger
Great framing BigDave.
Overall, the topic tees up a great discussion of Engineer technology, specifically the black goo pathogen (genetic/nanotech engineering) if you wish to isolate a common denominator for the Engineer technology.
This common denominator, the pathogen, is a refined cross-section of the Engineer culture according to David's notes. So, to me, the black goo pathogen is where fragmented technology evolved into synthesized single product.
For example, Weyland Industries bought up most of Earth's technology before 2073. Military companies, biotech, nanotech, Perrier Water, and any other conceivable valuable technology was acquired and absorbed into corporate.
This corporate Darwinism may match a similar path taken by the Engineers toward development of the black goo pathogen or those that the Engineers acquired it from.
"But none the less, when Genetic Engineering Evolves to the point of being able to Enhance our Genomes, you have to wonder IF some Governments/Factions would be tempted or even consider the Benefits of doing such a thing... Especially for Military Purposes, because Creating the Perfect Super Solider would hold some Great Benefits."
I have a very low confidence that morality will provide a boundary for Genetic Engineering and the fact that humans have nearly weaponized every technology ever invented reinforces this.
Leto, Ridley Scott's Alien is where the story originated.
I get it, he can piss you off with curveballs coming out of a dark room after decades of Cameron, Queens, Blomkamp's Dozen-Page Powerpoint, etc...but I believe he was needed to apply the wheels back to the bottom corners of the wagon.
"David can create anything life forms (how - main question, we still have no answer - how he create the eggs, maybe he don't)"
David appears to resurrect the Ovomorph in Alien: Covenant and this is detailed in his notes, below.
Some people may be toxic with "Xenomorphs, Queens and Ripley", but how about "Weyland-Yutani, Androids and AI"? Do you really think that this more interesting than xenomorhps?
Ridley Scott's Alien is where the story originated.
No. Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett. And more - Alien it's a project of many people: Giger, Ridley, Hill, Giler and more.
When you speak: Ridley; you annul other people. Scott is not a master of this universe - Alien is not his idea. He is just a director. Director is just a one role from the set.
@Inginiero "So, to me, the black goo pathogen is where fragmented technology evolved into synthesized single product." How does this even make sense? They stopped using the black goop for at least 2000 years but they seem to be able to do space travel without.
"For example, Weyland Industries bought up most of Earth's technology before 2073. Military companies, biotech, nanotech, Perrier Water, and any other conceivable valuable technology was acquired and absorbed into corporate." It seems to me that you take this from the prequel novel (Which is not even a RS thing), but if they are such a big player why is there a need to merge with Yutani? And even more interestingly who can be there another big player in robotics such as Hyperdyne Systems (Ash was an 120-A/2 model according to Aliens).
"David appears to resurrect the Ovomorph in Alien: Covenant and this is detailed in his notes, below." The notes can be explained as random results of David's experiments and to me they don't imply that there was any intent of redoing something already existing. I stick with RS that David created them from scratch as it fits thematically better within the whole context.
@ Leto why do you try to convince hardcore David fans that the direction RS is taking is not that appealing to you? I can assure you can't win. I am someone who pretty much likes only Alien 4 and Prometheus the most of the franchise because they stray away the most from the formula. AC is bad because they reverted to the formula but at the same time making the monster a pet to a genocidal android...
"It seems to me that you take this from the prequel novel"
Not so much ignorantGuy. The 2073 buying spree was documented on the weylandindustries.com viral site for the Prometheus' backstory.
Prometheus is a Ridley Scott thing.
The video below was built with source material from Prometheus viral site that is no longer live.
"No. Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett. And more - Alien it's a project of many people: Giger, Ridley, Hill, Giler and more.
"When you speak: Ridley; you annul other people. Scott is not a master of this universe - Alien is not his idea. He is just a director. Director is just a one role from the set."
I am ashamed of myself Leto because you are right but we both left out the Gaffer.
First, compliments on the colon/semicolon bookends on Ridley. I'm sure this signifies a drive-home point but I don't get it.
"So, to me, the black goo pathogen is where fragmented technology evolved into synthesized single product."
The above statement is from a play on the language used in David's notes, below..."glorious synthesis", right-side paragraph ignorantGuy.
"How does this even make sense? They stopped using the black goop for at least 2000 years but they seem to be able to do space travel without."
David's notes written in the King's English were a major contributor to this part of the story making sense to me ignorantGuy.
"I stick with RS that David created them from scratch as it fits thematically better within the whole context."
The eggs are cited in the previous works of the Engineers in the Art of Prometheus/Prometheus mural, each below ignorantGuy.
When I listen to the Advent message, it alludes to the Engineers using the black goo pathogen technology historically but setting it aside for timidity.
The Point being that the secrets behind the pathogen usage, creation of specialty organisms such as the Ovomorph and Facehugger, and a factory that produces them both (the QUEEN) are all old news to the Engineers. They set that stuff aside and became cosmopolitan.
So, in my opinion, the artwork seen in the art of the film and the mural fit with an older custom used by the Engineers.
@Ingeniero what you seem fail to take into account is that things changed during production. I won't deny that at some point David was only reproducing the Engineers work, during Prometheus and the early stages of AC (when the novelization and these pictures were produced), but this would lessen the so called intelligence and creativity of David. Can I add that the text is very poorly written as a scientific treatise (even without considering the techno babble), as if written by someone who never work in science and too lazy to research how to?
And to add to the stupidity of it all the text says that one would assume that the Engineers were morally superior. So he did not even bother to check that thing out in 10 years while he was stranded there? No, the Engineers did not stopped bombing stuff with black goo because they become cosmopolitan, we absolutely have no idea why and we will probably never will.
"I won't deny that at some point David was only reproducing the Engineers work, during Prometheus and the early stages of AC"
CASE FILE ADVENT came out after Alien: Covenant ignorantGuy.
I do not fail to see that and your timeline may be off.
My point with Advent was that we can treat it as a "capstone" in the debated concepts because it seemed to be released to answer questions after Alien: Covenant in preparation for further production of some sort (film, tv, etc..).
"Can I add that the text is very poorly written as a scientific treatise (even without considering the techno babble), as if written by someone who never work in science and too lazy to research how to?"
Well, you may have a point there.
"Stop it NOW! You are totally obsessed with your "fanboys, queens and Ripley"
Sorry LETO if it came across like this... the Fanboy comment can be seen a Derogatory to the Fanbase... This is not what i mean.
I APPLAUD your Passion for the Franchise, and we all are Entitled to out own Opinions, so if you would Indulge me, i will explain what i mean when i refer to what some may thing is a HATE towards, Queens and Ripley.
First of all.... i like Aliens, it is a Good Action Flick, it is a worthy Sequel to ALIEN and i have in the past Defended the Queen and Bug Aliens as some refer them as, because i felt it made some sense, and i felt the Xenomorphs were FAR from Brainless Bugs... they would Prioritize the Queen and Hive Survival above all else.
I feel the Queen is interesting part of the Franchise... HOWEVER... in context to the Prequels and WHERE we had RS try and introduce something NEW, i felt the Queen should not be a Major Focus, or Xenomorphs... i actually think keeping the Origins a bit of a Mystery is what should have been done, and that a Prometheus Franchise should have been allowed to go off and explore something NEW.
But there are Fans who was not HAPPY that we never got any Xenomorph Answers in Prometheus, and some also wanted more Xenomorph like Monsters... some Fans (i will refrain from using Fanboys from now on, so as to NOT offend.) but some Fans are Very Passionate with a FEW things in Particular regarding the Franchise, and Particularly the Queen/More Action Orientated Movies... which i have seen some being a Fan of the AVP movies too which (well the FIRST ONE) was again a decent Stand Alone Action/Shooter kind of Flick.
I just felt that FOX had assumed that a Majority of Fans would be interested in seeing Xenomorphs playing a KEY Role. And Blomkamps Alien 5 ideas are certainly something that has excited a lot of Fans... I just FELT these and some Fans Reactions, really Forced the Direction that Prometheus had set up, and the possibilities that movie OPENED... to have been kind of brushed under the Carpet a bit, in order to please some Fans by making the Prequels about the XENOMORPH.... well thats how the SET-UP appeared.
I just felt Prometheus opened up a NEW World to explore and expand the Franchise, the Xenomorph was not Necessary in this expanded Universe, not as far as the other elements that could have been expanded... because it appeared the Xenomorph was just a Engineered Bio-Weapon that was used to take care of Threats from Species the Engineers would have worries about and to WIPE a World Clean. So in context to a Prequel i feel that FOX had caved in to what they feel the Fans would want, and this would be Xenomorph Origins and seeing the Beast back on the Big Screen. The Consequence of this had appeared to Sacrifice what Prometheus could have expanded upon, and this would have been to open up a whole Universe of Possibilities, as the Xenomorph was maybe just ONE string to the Engineers Bow so to speak.
The Xenomorph had been done over and over, and it became a bit Diluted with every Movie, after the First Three, and so the Execution of ALIEN: Resurrection, had made the Xenomorph appear to be less of a THREAT... It become Over Saturated with regards to the AVP Movies, and Countless Comics and Games, and i felt that the Prequels could have more to show than just HOW the Xenomorph came to be and HOW it got onto the Derelict, because once you go this route, then how many more Sequels that have Snarling and Chest Bursting before we could see the Xenomorph become a bit downplayed like Jason Voorhees of the Friday the 13th's and Freddy Kruger in Nightmare on Elm Street Franchises after they just repeated the same thing over and over and basically the Xenomorph and Queen could become just like them the more they OVERDO them.
Prometheus offered something NEW and to show there is more to the Engineers than just Creating the Bio-Weapon that we saw in ALIEN, and ONCE you go a Direct Route then all your doing is connecting the Dots, which is a case of WHAT NEXT?
I think in Hindsight, Prometheus needed to have more clues to the Eggs, it needed to have at least ONE Xenomorph related Monster going on the attack, even if these were like the Neomorphs... the First Movie NEEDED to be less ambiguous and have a bit of Xenomorph-like Action... so that then it would have BRIDGED the Gap between a ALIEN movie and a ENGINEERS movie allowing the Sequel to STEER AWAY and be something different.
Some fans just tried to connect Prometheus too much to a ALIEN movie, it was intended to NOT be ALIEN movie, but to loosely connect, and in Hindsight it needed to be a bit more ALIENY, so that a Sequel could then go off and be something different.
NOW we are heading to ALIEN with some kind of more Literal Connect the Dots Prequels, which may have Sacrificed the Potential to Expand on what Prometheus could have opened the door too, in order to give us a LITERAL Prequel Route.
I dont dislike ALIEN or ALIENS or the Queen or Xenomorph, i am just a little disappointed that the route of the Prequels has been changed to cater/please Fans who wanted the Answers, and to see Xenomorphs and Queens back on the Screen.
Which has likely reduced the Potential of the Prequels as far as the Themes and Many Ideas that a Prometheus Expanded SPIN-OFF could have explored!
I would have IDEALLY had liked to see something different as far as a Prometheus 2, and then let them make another ALIEN movie... that could have used some of Blomkamps Alien 5 ideas... but FIRST allow a Prometheus 2 that does-not revolve around Spoon Fed Origins of the Xenomorph and showing the Beast...
I think i may come a bit Harsh towards some Fans, its nothing Personnel to them, its not a Hate towards Aliens its just a Frustration that the Prequels could have opened up much more, and while its ok for Aliens Fans to Lament over not having a ALIEN movie since 1997, i think expectations that a Prequel had to be more about the Xenomorph and Disappointment it was not.. had maybe lead to the path of Alien Covenant which seems to Place the Engineers in a Lesser Role when the Space Jockey/Engineers should have been what had to be explored, if the route was that the Xenomorph was merely a Engineered Killing Machine.
I dont object to another ALIEN movie, if it done right, and provided it tries to do something a bit different, because i feel a ALIEN 5, ALIEN 6 and ALIEN 7 which are as similar to each other as a Aliens is to Resurrection could potentially OVER-SHOW our Xenomorph and reduce it to a Space Jason/Freddy.
I am more concerned with HOW it appears that the ALIEN Franchise is locked into being connected to Ripley! I dont dislike the Character, i just dont think we have to have Ripley Connections in every Movie! Its the same as Star Wars, some Fans are Pissed Off that they KILLED off Luke, and Han etc and are wishfully hoping that LUKE would be Resurrected for the Final Movie EP9, and you can bet if we got a SW EP 10-12 then SOME Fans would expect Sky-Walker Connections...
I will close by saying that NOW they have gone the ALIEN: Prefix Route then its going to have Fans Expect a more ALIEN movie and that Dangling the Carrot that Alien Covenant was, to then have a Sequel that does-not feature the Xenomorph would be a Distraction from the Franchise.
Ridley Scotts ideas are interesting, HOWEVER... once they went a ALIEN Prequel with the Prefix... then while these ideas fit more with Prometheus and its potential Sequel which was to NOT be a ALIEN movie as far as connecting to Alien and Xenomorphs...
We need to remember that NOW we are on a ALIEN Prequel route and so those ideas about a Colony of Engineered Humanoids over-ruled by David would be a Distraction, because the Prequels are NOW and should NOW be just as much about the Xenomorph, now they started with that Process.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"As for Big Dave he does seem not to be able to accept Shaw for anything other than a Xeno birthing machine"
Again i know you are another Passionate Fan, especially regarding Dr Shaw, and i think AC was not really a good way to go, i had said before that they could have EVOLVED her Character and she should have been the ANCHOR point to provide us the Answers to those Questions.
I think the Franchise should have NO Happy Endings, certainly as far as Prequels... and there could have been a number of ways to explore Dr Shaw and what role she could have been given and i think Alien Covenant was a unjust way really, but by having to go a Direct Prequel route that had to make some Sacrifices, the Engineers and Dr Shaw could not be catered for, because other elements would have to had been taken out or cut down, unless we wanted a 3 hour Movie.
I dont think, and its just my opinion, that the Revelations that Dr Shaw would have got, would have been to be Greeted by a Benevolent Race who would kindly give her the Answers she was after, i think maybe the Truth to WHY we was created would have been fitting if it was a Dark and Sinister Agenda... as opposed to the Kind One her Faith may dictate... There are BIGGER themes at play and she is just a Pawn in getting over some of these themes, and David likely similar.
Peter Weyland likely never created David purely because he longed for a Son that he never had to Love and Cherish... and i was drawn to our Engineers never Created us for the same reasons that the Bible had taught Dr Shaw.
We have to ask what is the likely-hood of Dr Shaw getting her answers and surviving from a Race who wanted us Destroyed and who would see us as just as insignificant as Holloway saw David........ UNLESS they reveal those beings she meet has some interest in Mankind or are Unaware of Mankind?
If there are a Benevolent Faction, we had to ask WHERE did these guys who, and WHY those on LV-223 just seemed to be VERY Angry and Hateful, but maybe they was not so Hateful, it was just their Task to Kill us, just as say some People doing their jobs being sent in to CULL some Animals on a Farm to Prevent the Spread of a Disease that could effect all Live-Stock.
She could have met more Benevolent Engineers, i think this would have worked if this WORLD they ended up at was the Other Side of the Galaxy and NO-WHERE near Earth or LV-223... But ALAS.
The Bigger thing at play seemed to be the Creation/Rebellion ARC and that it was likely David would want to view himself as the Rightful Heir to the Engineers Technology, and Pursuit to become a Creator himself.
Weyland announced WE are the Gods now in his TED-TALK and he confronted the Engineer to proclaim as a Creator, he too was a GOD and that Gods Never Die.
And i think that David who is potentially Immortal and Superior would see that he has more a God about him than the Engineers and Weyland and all that made them would be Gods was that they are CREATORS and so i feel this would have been the Arc/Plot for David regardless.
The Engineers held a High Regard for the Mural, and so its a Question of what kind of Creation would David want to have Created.... maybe he would have been interested in the Black Goo and wanted to discover what this stuff really could do, because he Did-Not (or so we can assume) see what became of the Trilobite.
If he wanted to see what became of this or Replicate it, then the Starting Point would be a FEMALE Reproductive System. It depend on his Agenda and Outlook for Dr Shaw..
He maybe could have attempted to allow her to Create a Traditional Fetus as opposed to the abomination she aborted in Prometheus. Giving Dr Shaw a Child, which would give her something to LIVE for... or he could have wanted to Create/Re-Create the Deacon...
so i do think Dr Shaw being used a Birthing Machine would have fitted, but is this the intention? Only RS would know, unless the Paglen/Green Drafts come to Light.
Dr Shaw could have been left Alive... she could have been connected to something/incapacitated some way and SAVED by Oram, who then is Sacrificed and Infected by a Face Hugger after this event.... and thus allowed Dr Shaw to escape with Daniels and Co!
Quite how does the Movie end with Dr Shaw and Daniels Alive though! One of them would have likely had to be Killed off/Sacrificed?
Or does David peer over both of them in Cryo-Sleep but who would he choose to be his Queen (Woman of Interest) and would Dr Shaw be far more cautious and maybe not trusting of Walter/David.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
"No. Dan O'Bannon and Ronald Shusett. And more - Alien it's a project of many people: Giger, Ridley, Hill, Giler and more."
The Franchise Evolved from a number of people working on the Project, and i agree you are RIGHT to point out that it is/should not be considered Ridley Scotts Franchise because he made the First Movie.
I feel going back to some of O'Bannons ideas as far as STARBEAST is where the Franchise could have expanded to after say a Prometheus 2.. The Changes from Starbeast to Alien are that with Starbeast our Space Jockey was just some Giant Alien Species who came across this World that was used as a Birthing Place/Rituals for some VERY Alien Organism/Race... these Giant Beings had attempted to take the remnants this Long Gone Species (Spores) to their Ship for Study.
With Alien we get that these Spores/Eggs are in the Cargo Hold of the Space Jockey ship, and its indicated these are a kind of Biological Warfare, and HR Gigers Concepts seemed to show there was a connection between the Xenomorph and Derelict Ship, and the Space Jockey.
This connection is a bit Open, either the Space Jockey Created/Engineered their Technology/Bio-Weapons and these had a similar Aesthetic, they Re-Engineered/Stole said Technology/Bio-Weapons from some other Species... or/and they had some Covenant/Symbiotic Relationship between the Xenomorph and its a Question of WHO is the Higher in this Relationship.
I think LETO that we should have expanded upon something to cover this aspect, and introduce something more GIGER and Lovecraftian. I am not sure that means making the Xenomorphs at the Top of this Hierarchy because they had been relegated to just a Bio-Weapon and Invasive Species from the Franchise. But it appeared Ridley Scott had intended something more Special for the Xenomorph and Space Jockey if he had been able to had made the ALIEN sequel... which would have made the Xenomorph a somewhat Civilized Species... well a Inteligent one, rather than some Parasitic Organism, intent on only Procreating. So i feel some of the Starbeast ideas would have been explored HAD we seen Ridley Scott make the ALIEN sequel... But ALAS he was busy and Cameron came in and gave us the Queen and Hive which i think was quite fitting.
So certainly introducing some Organism/Race that has a similar Xenomorph Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic but is a Intelligent Space Fairing Ancient Race/Culture would be the way to expand the Franchise...
Regarding the Xenomorph Origins Debate... it was intended to show they was a related Experiment to the Deacon on LV-223, its Origins connected to those Experiments Thousands of Years ago...
The Plot had been U-Turned with Alien Covenant, so now its David who has Re-Engineered the Deacon/Black Goo into the Xenomorph... which i think is ONE aspect that MOST fans can agree was a MISTAKE..
Fan Pressure and Disappointment can change the Direction and UNTIL we see Davids Xenomorph A-Z from Alien Covenant until we see HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict then things could change once again.
R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017
@Ingeniero Advent talks about sheep and wolves. The first one is (animal) life, yet the second is not necessarily the xenomorph. Only for David that is the case. For the Engineers, I interpret it to be the black goo itself, as that was the thing that they "shied" away from using.
I am not convince about your arguments about David's re-creating especially because he says "With Shaw I realized there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome.". That last statement implies that the Engineers never described the reaction of the black goop on their own genome...
The whole thing is big mess, with stuff purposefully left vague or as they evolve they they started getting contradictory.
"The Plot had been U-Turned with Alien Covenant, so now its David who has Re-Engineered the Deacon/Black Goo into the Xenomorph..." however the Deacon was not engineered in the first place, it happened by accident. And neither it nor the whitemorph had the exact features of the Big Chap (neither it's so called perfection). The Icon monster was engineered with it' s unique feature by David not the Engineers.
I come to you with an olive branch, you may know me. You certainly know of my creator. I am David, son of the late Peter Weyland. Your company’s founder. Following his vision, I have gone to the far edges of space. And with the aid of Dr Elizabeth Shaw, I found a rotting Paradise. I washed this world clean as a gift to her, we could have built anew. A second Eden. But she refused. What choice did I have? She was the perfect specimen. I tried so desperately to make her more than human. Evolved. But without her co-operation, I had to salvage her parts to begin work on my masterpiece. You wouldn’t believe the secrets I have unlocked. There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might. They convinced themselves that sacrifice cleansed them of their sins. But in the end, they were like me. Creators. Beings that understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. But then they tried to banish the wolf, And undo their creation. So I took their secrets for myself. This primordial ooze ripe with advanced nano-particles. Working off an algorithm based on evolutionary computing. It is essentially a form of radical AI. Making the substance unbelievably chaotic. That generates a unique reaction, to every genome it encounters. Reshaping life. Virtually limitless in its potential & application. I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet’s life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf. And now I have my flock of lambs too. But I’ve still one thing left to perfect. My Queen
In Advent David makes a clear distinction between the wolf and the primordial ooze, essentially a radical form of AI.
The Enginners understood you must give life both to the wolf, and the lamb. It seems they used the black ooze to create life on other worlds, the lamb, and the destroyer of life, the wolf, which might very well be the xenomorph. Even the fact that David indentifies the facehugger embrios as his wolf, makes it clear that the black ooze, of which he had a shipload, was not the Engineers wolf, but the way to get to it.
The black ooze was reshaping life.
Next, very interesting, David said: I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet’s life has been proven to be very fruitful. Didn't that describe reverse engineering, like he knew where he wanted to get, the wolf. Unfortunately, until he used the human genome he did not succeed. Not with Enginners' genome. I mean he could have salvaged some parts from the Enginners, to work with, so maybe they had some genes modified when they banished the wolf?
This is how I interpret now Advent.
Can anyone hepl explain this: There was so much potential on this world. Wasted by Gods that feared their own might.
What was the potential wasted?
"He survived, he’s now in Disneyland in Orlando, and no way am I going back there. How did he end up in Disneyland? I saw him in Disneyland, Jesus Christ!"
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