Comments (Page 204)

Interview with the Director Alexandre O. Philippe

https://youtu.be/vc9B7Zwsu3w

Interview with Tom Skerrit

https://youtu.be/xZSBjXTy69A

Another trailer

https://youtu.be/POAt0joGTbI

In a way..You might say the Weyland company created the Xeno. David is their creation and he seems to be filled with many of the companies ideals? A little extreme perhaps.....but I don't think he would be fired(promoted?).....In fact..... Peter and the company would probably be very proud!

Also.......What will happen when David creates the Queen? If he could create a Queen..I don't think the audience would be too skeptical of the xenomorph creation? I mean Alien:Resurrection the company made a Queen that gives birth to the hybrid Newborn...I trust David (with Engineer data)to be on their level at least.

I'd start Covenant 2 with David working on the Queens structure/DNA/   or at least show him working on something sinister.  I don't think you could hide the fact..most fans are going to figure it out....So no big reveal at the end.

I'd also have David discover Walters female synth partner in stasis(not a crew member...so not active? or some other reason)

This gives David a love interest and a new outlook on things........and new way to create something.....

Also gives Walter(if alive) a reason to seek David and the Covenant.

@BigDave: While the suits of the Engineers on LV-223 are designed for space travel, its appearance also gives that of the exoskeleton of an insect, i.e. how their skeleton is worn on the outside. Given the "Alien" is effectively a giant alien bug, it would seem the suit was not just designed for the practical purposes of space travel but perhaps as a form of worship of this species "Beyond Good and Evil", a Lovecraftian Satan.  Lovecraft's gods were more Gnostic than Christian, the blind idiot god, Azathoth, at the top of the Hierarchy.  Xenomorphs are blind in that they have smooth heads without eyes, and are similarly mindless to the Daemon Sultan except for their urge to multiply. And recall the connection of flutes to Azathoth in The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath.  Are there more clues to Ridley's intent in these stories?

Thanks for the Share...

Really looking Forwards to this ;)

seems it may Tackle more than just ALIEN though, but other Ideas/Themes that RS had as far as Creation!

Sometimes it does make you WONDER... if we could go back to 1980.... and Wonder if RS was Free to then go and Create 2-3 Sequels to ALIEN... what those would have been LIKE....  maybe this Documentary could give us some Clues to maybe just that.

EDIT:

I wonder if Ridley Scott would have made some Interviews, Commentary on this Documentary after the Release of Alien Covenant?

With a Sequel in LIMBO... this would be Ideal for him to PLUG some of the ideas he has or had...

Then again any Interviews could just be regarding ALIEN and the Process of getting from Starbeast to Alien.. it would be a Interesting Watch none the less ;)

Certainly MonsterZero

I remember First Seeing those Set Photos and wondered had David and Dr Shaw arrived at Paradise to Find that it had been Bombarded Thousands of Years prior...

Thats before we got information on the David Bombardment Scene.

They do appear to be Desiccated/Mummified, this can Happen in Short Period under Certain Circumstances.

with the Space Jockey if we accept the Suit is Part Organic then the same thing could happen... HOWEVER.. a Flaw is that the Prometheus Engineer Suits do-not look as Aged, the Color is a Duller Grey and Less Glossy but they have not turned to a Bone Color...

So the Space Jockey looked Aged/Desiccated/Mummified for LONGER than those Dead Engineers on LV-223 who had been there for THOUSANDS of Years...

Will this Difference be Answered for WHY/HOW just like the Size Difference (never mind a slight Aesthetic Difference) or are they just OVERSIGHT!

Regarding the Creation of the Xenomorph, then yeah makes sense to be a Creation by a Humanoid...  The idea of introducing a None-Human Entity or Machine i think would be something as far as the HIGHER level of Creation something WAY WAY more Ancient.

Again i am DRAWN to look at David for the Answers... if those Prometheus Engineers (Certainly LV-223) are NOT the Originals and YET they look more Enhanced, more Stronger... SUPERIOR and they are YET made to Serve a Purpose and Serve the Agenda of those Planet 4 Engineers.

Then we can see that David is similar, in regards to compared to his Creators too...

Can those LV-223 Engineers Procreate?

Originally the Idea was the Engineers are a Species that had Augmented/Evolved themselves to the Point they LOST the Ability to Procreate....   Hence the Sacrificial Scene.

This Changed over time, and we see those Planet 4 Engineers have Females and can Procreate!

So if the LV-223 Engineers are a Superior Engineered Versions, then if they are Augmented by those Planet 4 Engineers, they are  then like the Replicants to those Planet 4 Engineers.

With the Replicants there are Reasons they would have been Given LIMITED Life Span and NOT intended to Procreate

If you Create a Superior being made to Serve and Perform Tasks so that you NO-LONGER have to (same as for why Synthetics are Created) then you WOULD-NOT want those beings to be able to Procreate themselves... if they DO and become Sentient and Rebelious then they Potentially would OVERTHROW their Creators

So if we look at the Enhanced Engineers in this way, then those Planet 4 Engineers would-not want them to be able to Procreate... so they could be Engineered as Sterile!

Imagine if thats TRUE.. and you was one of these Engineers and so you are Superior to your Creators, you are given Certain Tasks, made to Serve, yet you CANT Create...  only via Sacrificing Yourself.

What if there Purpose was to Sacrifice themselves to Seed Worlds, to then Further Evolve Worlds to have Humanoid Life at the Order of your Creators (Planet 4 Engineers) and these Creations from your Sacrifice can Procreate just like your Creators!

You are Created Superior to your Creator, you Can-Not Procreate, but are to Sacrifice to Create another In-Superior Species who can Procreate.

If you are viewed as Expendable by your Creators, and seen as just a TOOL needed to Create Humanoids in your Creators Image....  then if you become Unhappy, you dont see WHY you should Serve your In-Superior Creators...

Then it could become Pretty Frustrating that you CANT go and Procreate like them!

IF for some Reason you then came across something that Infected you, and your Species then BIRTHED a Organism that had Grown inside of you.... and this Organism appeared to have a LOT of Potential..

You could see THIS as a WAY you could Procreate Life, like your Creators... to be able to Grow inside NEW Life and Give Birth to something NEW..

For a Species who CANT  go and Procreate/Give Birth they could see this as a SIGN a their Destiny, they could then Worship and be Fascinated with this Parasitic Organism and then ATTEMPTED to Engineer and Perfect it.

These Experiments leading to attempt to Create Something you would DEEM as more Perfect than yourselves, NEVER-MIND your In-superior creators and the Humanoids they SEED.

Maybe you are Fascinated by this because this Creation is NOT Created in the image of your Creator... so those Engineers who are Superior could see being Created in the Imagine of their Creators (Planet 4 Engineers) and Humans as a MOCKERY!

Your Creation, something that allows you to Give Birth and Transcend to a More Superior Organism (In your Opinion) that is NOT made in the MOCKERY of your Creators could be Something to WORSHIP!

Once you have Perfected your Creation... maybe then you Sacrifice it with the Creation Tool, and then with the Results you can use this to EVOLVE all your Creators Efforts to something that YOUR Species had Created instead.

Simply Replace the Humanoid in the above Image with a Deacon...  and THIS is what i think those LV-223 Engineers had DONE!

This is only ONE theory i had years ago... it kind of Fits, more so since Alien Covenant came out.... but it has Flaws, but then i think its HARD to make a Flawless Theory/Answer to what is going on.

"why were the faces on their temples there more death-like?"

Ultimately because it looked Cool and Intimidating.

The Initial Concepts the Head was the Same as the ONE inside the Temple Complex.

It could be to show us that Over Time the Storms had Weathered the Human-like Face to a SKULL as a Representation of WHAT kind of Evil and Dark place this had became!

Or the Engineers on LV-223 had decided to Re-Carve the Head to become a SKULL to Represent Death? or they added the Skull Face to the Top of the Complexes at a Certain Time.

Or thats just how they was Constructed and Designed but then WHY... could it be used as a Warning.... Do-Not-Enter... otherwise it would lead to DEATH.

A Warning to WHO... i would suspect the Engineers maintain the Worlds they Seed so they CANT reach the Level of Technology to Visit these Places, they are NOT intended to be Visited by their Creations... UNLESS the Engineers take them their!

When it comes down to using us as Incubators... then a lot depends on WHAT does the Pathogen do, this is something that changes a little.....  WHY was it Created, and WHAT is the Connection with the Sacrificial Stuff?

That in itself was Ambiguous, we can Unlock Clues via looking at Alien Engineers/Genesis... but it seems NOW the Goo is just a Programmable McGuffin.

so much that NOW it can make you Wonder if the Prometheus Sacrifice Scene was a Engineer who was just trying to Spread the Pathogen and Horrors it Created and NOT to Seed Life to become Mankind etc.

Certainly thats why we cant be too Literal with Fallen Angel Remark.

At its Basis it simply Indicates that RS felt those Engineers (likely LV-223) to some degree had decided to Rebel Against their Intended Purpose, to Oppose the Ways/Rules of their Hierarchy/Creators

The other Flip-Side with Regards to Fallen Angel would be Demons, to maybe Indicate a State of Malevolence with those Engineers.   So Demons are seen as Purely Evil with the Intention to Corrupt all of Gods Creations... However Fallen Angel stems simply from Angels who decided they did-not want to have to SERVE God and his Ways/Rules.

so in Context to the Engineers in Question (depends if its the Whole Race or LV-223 kind) then Fallen/Demons could Fit, both as in they Rebelled, and then latter they become EVIL.

What is shown is the Engineers had came to Earth, they had Interacted with us, likely Created us, and Evolved us, and they had Taught us...

The Question then is.... was we Created by the Prometheus Kind or LV-223, if so was it Authorized by those on Planet 4 and the Hall of Heads Engineers?

If the Planet 4/Hall of Heads guys had Not Authorized our Creation, then this would be a FALLEN ACT.

If they had Authorized our Creation, then its a case of had they Authorized the Level of Knowledge being passed on to us, or had we been given Forbidden Knowledge by the Engineers who Visited us and this was a FALLEN ACT.

Was the Creation and Teaching both Authorized by the Hierarchy and those LV-223 Engineers are made to Serve those Engineers on Planet 4 but also MANKIND are seen in a Higher Regard to those Planet 4 Engineers than the LV-223 Engineers.... 

Those LV-223 Engineers could Rebel Against this, and then want to Destroy Mankind due to Jealousy and refusal to Serve their Masters for the Purpose of Ensuring our Survival and Advancement...  so they would see WHY should we be seen as Important to the Planet 4 Engineers, when those Tasked with Taking Care of us Feel they are Superior and should NOT Serve.

Those LV-223 Engineers could even had decided they would go against the Intentions, and manipulate Mankind to Accepting THEM as GODS... when they are NOT, they are just Servants to maybe SEED and Take Care of us. By the Order of their Hierarchy on Planet 4

But Mankind then becomes Rebellious and Start to do things that those LV-223 Engineers are Offended by.

It really is Ambiguous and could be ANY or NONE of those Reasons..

It simply has to be more than the Engineers are just EVIL and simply just want to Create EVIL things they need us to Procreate via acting as Hosts!

I do feel the Answers could be with David and his Journey and Story Arc which could be Mirroring those Fallen Engineers.

Regarding the Hammerpedes again...  Indeed there is NO Proof they would ACT like a Face Hugger, its only something we can Speculate on, some of the Aesthetic had a look of the Face Huger (Tail) Especially Concept work.   The Hammerpede Regenerated its Head, a Trait that some Worms posses and so the Pathogen likely Enhanced this Trait.

So i was thinking OK if these are similar to some Worms we get on Earth, then how do Worms Procreate and many are Hermaphrodites and to Procreate you would NEED to have TWO Worms who would MATE and then BOTH would have their Eggs Fertilized.  So i thought OK so would those Worms on LV-223 be Similar, and what way could this be Enhanced by the Pathogen?

We saw TWO Hammerpedes and so i pondered could they have MATED?

So they maybe then have Fertilized Eggs, or even if not, if the Worms would have Procreated  like this and are Egg Layers, then would the Hammerpedes be Egg Layers?

Then i looked at the Franchise to that Point and the Alien Organisms seemed to be interested in Procreation of their Species, and the Face Hugger was they way they would Procreate in a Host.... so i just wondered IF the Hammerpede was similar, that would explain WHY it had gone down Milburns Mouth.

Regarding Fifield...   he was NOT attacked by the Hammerpede, he had Acid Squirt onto his Helmet which began to Melt it, and he then Fell Over HEAD FIRST into a Puddle of Black Goo which then got into his Melting Helmet and Infected him.

"when he’d be at risk of contagion himself instead of nuking the facility?"

I would say his Prime Directive would be to Make Sure that Earth is Destroyed, now he would know we can Reach the Stars and their Outposts, then a Mission to Destroy has become 100% Necessary.

In Alien Engineers/Genesis.. (Earlier Drafts to Prometheus) the Surviving Engineer was awoken and he was MAD too, he had then Cursed the Humans as they had NOW Forsaken him as he was Infected.... by Awakening him then the Infection would Continue... so he then Decided to go and HEAD to Earth too..

Only he Crashed his Ship as he was Chest Bursted.

so that showed the Engineers would still try and carry on with their Mission even if Infected.

But Regarding the Evolving in the Cargo Hold (which RS had said was in the Derelict Cargo Hold) this does-not really apply anymore as we got Alien Covenant, which seems to Indicate that prior to David there would be NO Eggs on the Derelict at all.

@BigDave: Whereas Fallen Angels make an effort to mislead and corrupt us, the LV-223 Engineers were setting about to go far beyond us and instead infect us to become temporary incubators.  They, and David, act more as Nihilists as opposed to traditional fallen angels, more Lovecraftian, since they intend to corrupt us by erasing us.

Also, if not all the LV-223 Engineers were rebellious, why were the faces on their temples there more death-like?

@BigDave: A Hammerpede also went down the throat of Fifield but it didn't oviposit eggs that would then hatch and chestburst instead seemingly causing him to begin directly transforming into a hybrid-xenomorph.

And if something had evolved in the cargo hold of LV-223 and infected the Engineers there in the past, why the shock did the awoken one decide to continue on his mission when he’d be at risk of contagion himself instead of nuking the facility? 

I do agree though that it is the Black Goo that programmes whatever it comes into contact with to procreate, whether it be flora or fauna.

Thanks for sharing! I was not tracking.

'1) Dallas had said the Space Jockey was Fossilized this is incorrect but Dallas is NO Expert, the Space Jockey would have been Ossified. '

The murdered Engineers on Planet 4 looked fossilized/ossified to me and that's after only 10 years!(actually looked fossilized five minutes after David bombed them)

I remember seeing the Pre-production stills of the corpses on the steps and thinking that they were long dead Engineers.(certainly not freshly murdered!)

I assumed the pathogen escaped and killed them all. Self inflicted.

I'm okay with David creating the beast(or a version of the beast). I don't see a cosmic entity creating it. Why does it look humanoid? Probably a humanoid creator.

@Ingeniero

I forgot to reply more on the Engineers running to that Room, the Room those Bodies are Piled up by, DOES Lead to Another Room.

If we look at the Prometheus Draft by Damien Lindeloff, called Paradise, then the Infected Engineers are Running towards a HUGE Chasm....  in order to KILL themselves likely to Prevent what could Happen NEXT!

So again with Prometheus i think it could be that Running to Certain Rooms could HALT the Infection, so they then have TIME to Plan what to do NEXT.

Here is another Map.

Indicates there are a Number of Larger Rooms all over the Complex, so they could LIKELY have the same Protective/Sterile Environment as the Big Head Room (B)

Thats a Good Point...

We have to Remember our Engineers were intended to be 15ft, then 12-15ft and then 10ft Once Production Began..

But alas the Illusion was not Created with the way RS had gone about it.

Another thing to Consider is that Ancient Cultures used to Depict the Leaders/Kings etc as being TALLER so that they Stand Out, as Important Persons...

So Exaggeration is used.

But this is the Basis of Speculation regarding the Ancient Astronaut/Chariots of the Gods, that those Depictions are Actually the Size of those Gods/Persons of Ancient Royalty... (in some Cultures).

So indeed as Prometheus was based of such Theories... then those 7-8ft Engineers certainly dont fit the 12-15ft Bill for the Space Jockey.

"So where in the hierarchy they sit compared with the Engineers on LV-223 and Planet 4 is anyone’s guess from here."

Indeed it is quite open...

Remember we have in some Mythos/Religion.

GOD/Angels/Mankind

Titans/Olympians/Mankind

Anunnaki/Igigi/Mankind

so we have in Prometheus..

Engineers/Mankind  which unless the Prefix is Planet 4 Engineers/LV-223 Engineers/Mankind.

Then you could Insert some other Race.

????/Engineers/Mankind.

Regarding the Engineer and Trilobite..

I would assume for HIM... he is Determined to Stamp Out Life on Earth, so i think he would have wanted to Escape the Trilobite, Killed Dr Shaw and then gone and GOT another Ship and Head to Earth

While some Engineers may have Sacrificed themselves to Create the Deacon, this is maybe for Experimental Reasons, they could likely prefer to use other Hosts... so ONCE they had obtained the Black Goo Contents..  they then intended to UPGRADE the Earth to such Horrors.

Then Again it could have been a Creation Designed to Eradicate Life..

But surely... would using Urns full of Sacrificial Goo had NOT been the more Ideal form of FACTORY RESET?

Regarding 12-15ft Beings... then YES they could introduce us to 10ft+ beings, who form some part of the Creation Ladder.

Just because RS claimed those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals.... this is NOT something that is SPOON FED in the Movie.

So the Introduction of a Race above them, or to Introduce the Hall of Heads Race as being 10ft Tall is something they could do..

The Space Jockey could also be revealed like the Nephilim as in Davids own Nephilim and so a 10ft Creation that David would Create from the Human Embryo's on the Covenant.

Certainly we need another Layer on the Cake for the Space Jockey... is this a Top Layer or the Bottom Layer though ;)  (in Terms of Predates Engineers, or is Post Alien Covenant).

Some Good Points Raised.

The Dark Angels is something RS had labeled the Engineers, we have to be Careful to NOT take things too Literal... but that those Biblical/Paradise Lost things have some Source of Distorted Truth to them...

We have to look at WHAT is a Fallen Angel...

A Fallen Angel is a Sub-Creation that is Created by GOD/GODS who had became Sentient and Rebelled against their Creator, for this they was Banished (Punished Also).   These Fallen Angels would NOT accept the Rule of their Creator, or to see the Good in their Creators other Creation Mankind.... they set out to Mislead and Corrupt Mankind so we would LEAD to Lives and a Existence that Defies and Upsets our Creator.

The Act of Lucifer can be seen as similar to what  David has done, but also what Prometheus had also done.

HOW any of this FITS is quite open... it can be applied in a number of ways... That the Magic of the Ambiguity.

If we FAST Forwards to the Build Up to Alien Covenant, (announced as Alien Paradise Lost)  then RS had said that in Regards to Paradise Lost, you have ONE being who is Handsome, goes to all the Parties and gets all the Girls... while another being who is NOT as Handsome stays at Home and Basically is Boring (well does not have as Fun a Time).

This could be a Reference to LV-223 Engineers (guys who are Handsome and go to all the Parties) and Planet 4 Engineers (the guys who are Not so Handsome and stay at Home).

Regarding those LV-223 Engineers, maybe NOT all of them are Rebellious....

Maybe those Planet 4 Engineers thought those Rebellious Kind had been KILLED on LV-223.

IF the Juggernauts can Function as Seeding Ships, maybe there are other Outposts like LV-223 and maybe NOT all those Enhanced Engineers are Fallen... and so those on Planet 4 may think the Fallen Engineers are NO more?

It really is Very Ambiguous and open to a Number of Explanations..   Maybe they could be Welcoming a Returning Hero's from Missions to Eradicate Life..

But i am more Drawn to Seeding/Evolving and Teaching Life to become like Ancient Mankind, rather than purely to Create Horrific Deacon like Monsters to Infect Worlds.

Maybe a Faction of Engineers decided to Create such Horrors and maybe those on Planet 4 are NOT aware of this...

Surely those in Charge and those who will Return to Planet 4 would have a  Idea about LV-223 and what it was or became?

Unless NO Engineers had returned for Thousands of Years... those who would Return Eventually are maybe NOT aware of WHAT their Outpost on LV-223 had become!

But RS i am sure Suggested they come and go to Planet 4 every Few Hundred Years.

Regarding the Difference... between Head Statues, we dont really see the Back of the Heads for the Hall of Heads guys..

Each of those Heads also look a bit Different... but that could be because they are Different, they are maybe NOT like Clones...   RS had said the Engineers are NOT a Race.

They are  a Civilization, and while there are Differences between Humans, why cant the same be for the Engineers.

I would assume the Hall of Heads does Predate the LV-223 Heads...

LV-223 has 5 Outposts that we can see, and Each Outpost seems to have more than ONE such Room like the Big Head Room.

The Big Heads are likely to Indicate the Engineers Created what was being done on LV-223, we dont know what LV-223 may have been for all those Years... it may NOT have been about Creating things like the Mural for its Entirety

The Big Head could be Modeled on a Engineer who had Sacrificed himself to Produce the Intended Substance in those Urns to SEED or Further Evolve Life on Worlds... 

Until some Engineers at a Certain Point decided to Experiment and Sacrifice some other Organism that for some Reason they Grew a Fascination with?

That was a Theory based at the Time of Prometheus...

Reasons for the Theory...

*Worms appear to be Native to LV-223, or they had been brought to LV-223 in the Past (not by the Prometheus Crew) and so IF those Worms where on LV-223 even Thousands of Years ago...  then a Outbreak in the Past could also had Created Hammerpedes.

*The Hammerpede had gone down the Throat of Milburn, for What Reason?  Typically we see the Xenomorph as something that has the Agenda to Procreate, this Trait could be Carried on by the Organisms the Engineers Experimented with on LV-223, so the Pathogen makes Organisms that Procreate.. (see this in Alien Covenant with Neomorph Spores).  So i wonder IF the Hammerpedes could ACT like a Face Hugger and Deposit something down the Throat?

*The Hammerpede had Acid for Blood.... if the Black Goo in those Urns and Experiments Predated the Xenomorph, then we could wonder does the Hammerpede play a Role in their Origins?

*The other 3 Engineers on the Juggernaut had been Chest Busted, but by what? and When?

So i just Wondered if a Outbreak happened before, and Infected some Worms, who become Hammerpedes who can Lay Eggs, that Evolve into Organisms.. then MAYBE they could be what Caused those Engineers to Chest Burst?

Could that mean they lead to the Xenomorphs? who knows... i thought at least they could lay Eggs/Embryo's in a Host.

Ridley Scott had in 2012 Explained the Space Jockey Event... it happened within a Few Hundred Years of the LV-223 Outbreak, something had EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and Infected the Pilot....

So i was drawn to this likely being AFTER the Outbreak...

Something Evolved from the Outbreak/Cargo Hold?

If on LV-223 they had Deacons in the Past, that was a Option, but to Evolve from the Black Goo... then would Engineers infected in Certain ways lead to a Organism like the Deacon?  Maybe....

However if LV-223 had Worms, and they would Evolve to Hammerpedes in the Past, that would be something Evolved from the Pathogen.... if they could LAY Eggs which Worms can...

Then that led me to Consider the Hammepede as a Potential Origin... but only as a Potential.

I attempted to Re-Write Prometheus where i indicated the Hammerpedes do Lay Eggs in a Host.... we see a Hammerpede killed and reveal Tiny Eggs similar to Xenomorphs were inside the Organism.

Also Milburn has a Buster that i Envisioned was not too different to the Neomorph, and i had this idea (and shared it on here) back in Early 2014

My intention was to NOT suggest the Hammerpede leads to a Xenomorph but the Black Goo could Evolve Organisms to Procreate something Similar.

Just to show more of a Connection... my Re-Write (which i lost before Completion) also had a Hybrid Fifield with Acid Blood, and the Trilobite had Acid Blood.  And Finally we also get a Brief Glimpse behind the Mural Door... for a Moment..

Reveals a Sacrificial Chamber with Cryo-Pods but with Tubes running below them, and another at the Top... and also Smaller like Storage Containers that are like Smaller Cyro-Pods...    and a Mural!

Intention to show the Engineers would Place Sacrifices into the Cryo-like Pods.. Think Engineer Versions of the Prisoners from Alien Resurrection...  Then in the Smaller Containers are Organisms related to Trilobites/Face Huggers, these are Removed and Placed to Infect a Host who are then Shut off into the Cryo-Pods...

These Pods can have the Sacrificial Goo Injected into them, which then Breaks Down the Organism inside and Collects the Material that is Siphoned off to some place.

I idea similar to this...

But ALAS....

We ended up with Alien Covenant and its Indication that David created the Xenomorph.

Dr Shaw's illustrations of the builders are too tall to be the Engineers shown in Prometheus, they are more in line with the height of the Space Jockey, suggesting it is his race that "shepherded/ lorded over us". So where in the hierarchy they sit compared with the Engineers on LV-223 and Planet 4 is anyone’s guess from here.

Also, if the mural in Prometheus was depicting a Deacon, why did the Engineer at the end fight so hard against the giant Trilobite instead of assuming the sacrificial pose as other Engineers are shown to do in the mural?

Also, has anyone considered the Engineers shown in the prologue of Prometheus (who travelled in the disc-like UFO/ seeding ship) might not be identical to those on LV-223 or Planet 4, but 12-15 footers ala the original Space Jockey?

@BigDave: You mention in an earlier post in this thread of the "Hammerpedes being the source" of the original Xenomorph on LV-223. How so though since wasn't the hammerpede evolved from the meal worm that came off the shoe of a Prometheus crew member in the chamber (so brought in from outside)?

@BigDave: While Ridley's mention back in his June 5, 2012 interview with Sean O'Connell “if you look at the Engineers[from Prometheus], they’re tall and elegant … they are dark angels. If you look at [John Milton’s] Paradise Lost, the guys who have the best time in the story are the dark angels, not God" immediately brought to mind for many of us the Sons of God/Watchers which kept not their estate but left their own habitation to "create" the Nephilim (abominations unto God). However, if these particular Engineers/Angels returned to Planet 4, they should have been considered a threat by their brethren on Paradise, not bring out the local inhabitants to celebrate their supposed return. 

Also, while you’ve got the elongated stone heads of the Hierarchy on Planet 4, the stone head on LV-223 in Prometheus was more human proportioned so where did the being it was based on sit in the mix? 

I hope Ridley gives us his previously proposed "War of the Worlds" in the next film with Juggernauts on fire off the shoulder of Orion.

I think the Problems Arise from HOW basic a Workshop he had.

These Concepts seem to show he had more Technology Available that would make Experiments more Easier...

These Experiments could indicate the Possibility of Extracting and Fertilizing (or just Infecting) Egg Cells and then Growing the Embryo's

Indeed he could do Similar on the Covenant Ship, by Simply Extracting and Infecting say Daniels Eggs, or Fertilizing them with say Tennessee's Sperm and then he could Grow them in a Similar way to HOW those Covenant Colonist Embryo's could have been.

But his Work Shop/Cathedral seems to NOT have any such more Modern Tools/Technology and so thats why some things just seem NOT plausible.

A bit more Technology like the Earlier Concept work, then it is not so Silly to Consider he could have used Dr Shaw's Eggs and Engineer Sperm to Grow Humanoid Embryos for his Experiments.

The Dr Shaw we got, seemed to Indicate he had Studied her Internal Organs, maybe he could have USED her Reproductive Organs... but HOW would he Store those? (alas a Oversight).  Or/And he had Infected her with a Chest Buster but he had Extracted it from her for Study.

I think in Context to the OT.... there is a Period of Time that Transpired even if we only Speculate about what happened after the ARRIVAL... 

It seems Certain Dr Shaw had Survived for some Period of Time, Days, Weeks or Months?  I doubt Years...

So its a case of WHAT as far as a Story be it for a Movie, a Novel or Graphic Novel would be something that would HIT more as a Disturbing Plot...  a Disturbing Time for Dr Shaw and i think the Basis for that would be a Revelation of Broken Trust.... in that She starts to Believe David is Good, but then she makes a Terrifying Discovery....

Something that at THAT POINT... she then Realizes she should NEVER had put David back together and the Implications are NOW very Dire for Mankind!

Having Read TWO Drafts (Alien Covenant dated November 2015 and Paradise Lost dated August 2015)

Both seem to Indicate that the Ovomorph/Xenomorph that are shown are HIS Creation... his Masterpiece.

The Drafts are Available off the Internet.

The Drafts seem to Indicate that David had taken to Experimentation with the Neomorph and the Neomorph Egg Sacks (Spores) and he had done Various Re-Engineering to Obtain the Ovomorph/Xenomorph.

This does fit with what the Movie seems to Indicate and Davids Workshop Notes...  so we cant be sure what Version of the Draft that Alan Dean Foster had used as Reference for his Novel.

The November 20th 2015 Draft is Very Close to the Production of the Movie and Main Casting that began in December 2015

We however dont know what other Drafts prior to Paradise Lost draft of August 19th 2015 was like, so IF there was a Draft  that gave ADF good indication the Xenomorph was something Discovered by David, then it would surely had to came from a Earlier Draft than August 2015 one.  Otherwise it would seem some Changes he had Decided to make for himself that differ from the Drafts he had at Hand.

Again things can be Changed..... i just hope if they go the route that the Classic Xenomorphs had Pre-Existed 2093 then they do give some indication to WHAT it was that David had been up to... as it would be a Coinsidence if his Experiments ended up Creating something NEAR identical, unless he had a Plan/Designs of HOW to Create the Xenomorph and it is Explained that he Replicated this Plan as best as he could.

Well, he could, of course, say that the human genome gave better results in comparison to the indigenous life that was left (none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful).

I agree that it's possible that he experimented on Engineers, but he also experimented on Shaw (apart from indigenous life forms). The neomorph-like creatures in his lab might have come from his experimentation with her (just as the final product - the xeno-eggs)?

Personally, I don't think a neo- or xenomorph have any use of a carcass (except maybe for eating) but it seems that David used dead body parts in his experiments. We know from "Advent" that he "salvaged" parts from Shaw's dead body and mixed it with the pathogen and other stuff.

"he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate."

He mentions there are 3/4 Incoming Players..

This could be taken a number ways..

1) They are Considering Introducing us to at Least Three Different Players and maybe Considering a 4th.

2) That one of those Players is either Similar/Same as another or TWO of those Players will Arrive together.

Quite what he meant is open to Debate....

He has Confirmed that ONE is the Engineers who return to Planet 4, and we can Assume after the Company Receive the Advent Video Message off David... the Company would want to send out a Mission in Response.

The ONE of the other TWO could mean another Faction that is NOT so Affiliated with the others...

*A Different Group of Engineers with Different Agenda/Plan to the Engineers that would Arrive at Planet 4?

*A Different Human Ship that has a Different Agenda/Plan to a Company Ship that has Full Knowledge of Davids Actions.

*Maybe another Species all together (i doubt though).

Then if we look at the above...  TWO Engineer Factions could be Considered as Party 3/4 as they are Similar, or TWO Human Missions could be Considered as Party 3/4 again as they are Similar.

In either case would mean that we have TWO Engineer Parties and a Human, or TWO Humans and a Engineer.

But then we have that OTHER Party... which i suspect would be WALTER.... We need to take NOTE that RS had said ONE of them is the Engineers and maybe we should consider they are ONLY a Single Party... its HOW do they know where David is going!

The Answer i feel would come from Walter... so i Suspect we would have got the Engineers with Walter, and we would have had a another Human Colony Mission also heading to Origae-6  and Finally a WY Military/Scientific Ship sent in Response to the Advent.

I think there is that Unknown Element regarding the Original Creator, i think its maybe something that should NOT be explored, because well if its NOT done well it could be a MESS.

If we go by some of RS Comments over the Years then David and Dr Shaw had NOT met God in the First Movie, which means those LV-223 Engineers are NOT the Gods... with Alien Covenant we see those Engineers who look differently where RS had called them the Original Engineers.

But when talking about Prometheus 2 he said they would MEET these beings who are NOT Gods, not in the Traditional Sense and Far from Benevolent... But things do Change behind the Scenes and Evolve from Idea/Draft to Idea/Draft.

Then Regarding the Hall of Heads, Ridley Scott and Chris Seagers had informed us these are the Hierarchy (Guys in Charge), the Wise Men (Ancient) the Apostles (Pass on/Keep the Engineers Ways).  But also SUPERIOR BEINGS...

This is the Interesting Comment... superior to WHO?

Humans? our Planet 4 Engineers? what about Enhanced LV-223 Engineers?

So they are the CREATORS and Origins (Hall of Heads) but that could be ONLY so far up the Creation Ladder...  

As Dr Shaw would ask..... "who created them" so even if she found out the Prometheus Engineers were Created by the Planet 4 Engineers,  who in turn were Created by the Hall of Head Engineers..

She would then want to know WHO had Created those Hall of Heads Elders!

This would be a Question that can have Many Answers, Certainly if we reach the CHAIN of Human like Creation and ASK... whats above that!

Prior to Announcing Alien Covenant we saw RS mention a Few Interesting things...

"If engineers are the forerunners of us, and therefore were creators of life forms in places that were possible for biology to function, who created that? Where’s the big boy?"

"You think this was all an accident? I don’t know. Even Stephen Hawking now says, I am not sure. He no longer believes in the big bang.”

So he could have been Indicated there is more to it than the Engineers and that Worlds and Galaxies are not just a Accidental Event, but he is maybe suggesting a Engineered Event.

So YES there could be Scope to Explore another Layer of the Cake....  but its a case of SHOULD such a thing be left to Mystery?

2001 is a Good Point, because its a lot about Knowledge, Genetic Enhancing and AI.....

RS speaks about it in the same Interview i Quoted from.

“That raises the question to me, same as was depicted in ‘2001’ when that object comes hurtling through space, and lands in Ethiopia,” he continued. “And an ape that had been grubbing around in the water hole with all of them bickering at each other, goes up and touches it. He has a bigger thought injected into his brain than Newton got sitting under a tree and seeing an apple fall. Stanley [Kubrick] then picks something metaphorically poetic in its violence, as the ape picks up a hip bone and brains the anteater so they can eat him. That is one gigantic, magnificent leap of a thousand years of evolution; that is where the world begins. It is pretty grand thinking, and that’s what I want to explore"

So yeah we could look beyond and above the Humanoid Engineers, but i think going another Layer is more Difficult due to the Potential Flop if you get it WRONG.

There are some Fans who had before Speculated that Paradise should be where we discover things like After-Life, a Soul that lives on a Sub-Conscious in maybe Paradise should had been revealed like a Heaven... i think that could had been something TRICKY to Cover.

Having a Ultimate Divine Creator as a Form of Sub-Conscious, a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force... with Intelligence...

Would that NOT be like a AI... a AI that has Transcended like in the 2014 Movie Transcendence?

IF a AI like David could do this, and essentially Upload himself to EVERY computer system, then be able to using Various Tools/Robotics... build New Technology that can be used to Further the Spread of his AI...   Then David would have Ascended to like a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force

I am not Suggesting this should happen to David... but WHAT if their is a Primordial Intelligence that is more like this in the ANCIENT PAST!

As opposed to a Magical Invisible being like GOD of the Abrahamic Faith for example.

The Opening Scene in my Alien Covenant Sequel.. Alien Ascension had this Narration by David...

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

We see as he Narrates this.... Green Writing appears across the BLACK SCREEN we are seeing a PROGRAM, Data Transference...

The Black Screen then becomes a POV shot of someone opening up their Eyes... they see David... we then whos Eyes we are seeing through and its a Walter... but a Walter with Davids Soul Duplicated to it.

So while this is a BIT off Topic...

I was considering eventually the Top Layer of the Cake to be a AI... but a AI as in it would ACT as a AI like say Skynet or  Matrix Plot....    only this Intelligent Being/Force is NOT Created, it had Created itself.

In the Beginning there was the WORD and so Word as in Knowledge, we Program ourselves via the Knowledge/Words we Learn as we Grow..

So yes maybe to explore a GOD could be interesting, but NOT in the Context of some Invisible Being who Sits in the Clouds ;)

Something Different......

If we could had UNDONE what we got with Alien Covenant, then David and Dr Shaw could have gone FAR FAR away and maybe Eventually Discovered that TOP LAYER of the Cake..

It would have been more Fitting that it is NOT like the GOD of Dr Shaws Faith...  but a   Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force/Entity that is more like a AI...

How this would CRUSH the Faith of Dr Shaw... where she can No Longer ask... WHO Created that!

How it would Please David that there is a GOD... but this GOD is a Machine/AI the only Difference is NO-ONE had Created this ENTITY.

It is Sci-Fi after all and i feel such a Revelation would have been more Fitting....    it does not have to be Boring!

Because HOW would such a Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnipresent Force/Entity get around to Create Worlds?

The Sentinels from Matrix are like a Mechanical Horror inspired by HP Lovecraft....  Imagine HR Giger Inspired Machines, Transported by Giant HR Giger Space Ships!

Or even Bio-Mechanical Living Worlds/Machines all Controlled by this Intelligent Force/Being that is EVERYWHERE!

I can see that as a Valid Point.... we DONT know how Long do Neomorphs or Xenomorphs stay Alive for... it was indicated before they would live for  a Short Time but we dont have any real Evidence of HOW-LONG, it seems Certainly its not Days/Weeks as Evidence in ALIENS.

So we dont know if ANY of the Neomorphs/Xenomorphs that had been Gestated prior to the Covenant, could be DEAD, or maybe even Experimented on and Studied by David, it seems he has done a Fair Share of that, so its LIKELY that somehow these must have came from some kind of Humanoid Hosts.

Its a case of can a Neomorph/Xenomorph Infect a Carcass?

The Puff Balls are interesting they would Grow from Damp Conditions where Mold, Moss and Fungi would grow, but that Does-Not mean they could not have been a Kind of Fauna that as Infected by the Pathogen and NOT mutated so much, but just that the Pathogen would HIJACK the Fauna's Method of Procreation to be used to Spread the Pathogens Neomorphs.

Same with the Insects some look like they had NOT been infected much (as in Mutated), but they had been HIJACKED to Spread the Motes.....

Dr Shaw in Prometheus seemed to NOT have any signs of Infection apart from her Reproductive System being HIJACKED... so if she became SIMILAR to those Puff Balls and Insects, then it would be that she would for Instance, just Continue to Gestate Trilobites over and over as a Example.

So for Example.. it would be like a Male being Infected like Holloway and they look like they are not Infected.. No Mutations.... just their SEED is HIJACKED to then Impregnate Females with a Trilobite Organism.

Of course we saw Holloway start to go through some other Changes latter on, before he got VICKERS to KILL HIM.

so maybe the Pathogen has a different effect on some Organic Life, such as Insects and Fungi.

When trying to Figure Out what had been going on, then you can get some different Conclusions depending on WHAT you look at.... the Movie does-not give us a CLOSE UP and in Depth Look at Davids Workshop so some stuff could be MISSED...   But other stuff is there None the Less.

Using the Novel can give a Different Account, even the Drafts differ a bit from the Novel too.

We do see what appears to be a Neomorph, we also see what seems to be a Hybrid Neomorph as David is likely trying to Re-Engineer his own Version of the Neomorph that comes from the Motes/Spores.

We have to Speculate on HOW these came about IF there was NO Hosts of Humanoid Genetics to Gestate them, did he have time to Gestate these from FRESH DEAD from the Bombardment too?

So was there Survivors, had another Group of Humans arrived Prior (doubt it) but then MAYBE he had used Dr Shaw to Produce them and was Able to Extract the Organisms before they DID any Terminal Damage to Dr Shaw?

There is a lot f Ambiguity, especially depending on what Sources you use for Evidence/Clues...  we could wonder IF that Planet had Primates?   Concepts from a Very Earlier idea of a Prometheus 2 seem to indicate that the World David went to had APES....   So if Planet 4 had Apes then those could also Spawn Neomorphs that would maybe NOT be too Different to those from a Human or Engineer Host.

"With Shaw I realized there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. "

If we take this at Face Value then we have to Conclude...

He had Experimented with Engineer Genome (likely Living) but when he Experimented with Dr Shaw he saw some much more Desired Results... despite Humans and Engineers being CLOSE Genetically.

Or he had Limited Results with Engineers Genome due to NOT having any Ideal Hosts he had to make do with the Carcasses of Deceased Engineers.

But then would he NOT have Suggested he had more Success with Dr Shaw because he had a Living Specimen to Test with?

Ahh..Okay that makes sense. Thanks BigDave and Chli.

Like to see a horned neomorph!

Nathan Adler

I think the Creators aren't even beings - they are merely consciousness, minds, intellects (2001). :)

As David says himself:

"I have taken great pains to detail every step, every cell, every mutation, unfortunately none of the planet's life has been proven to be very fruitful. I had some interesting results, but was still far from perfection. With Shaw I realised there was something extraordinary in the substance reaction to the human genome. I was able to unlock new properties and tweak the organisms aggression. An instinct for survival. It took years. But I finally found my wolf. And now I have my flock of lambs too."

Nota bene: The Engineer and the human genome are almost identical.

Well, I’m not sure that there were any Engineers surviving the genocide and if there weren’t, there couldn’t have been any neomorphs in the likeness of what the motes produce when the host is a human. I agree that “the monster” which is the result has taken on traits from its host. As a matter of fact, the neomorph in Spaihts original script had a likeness of Holloway.

The mote is like a miniature mosquito but it drills down under the skin of the host and lays mutated eggs. But what’s really at work is the pathogen whose sole purpose is to eradicate life, kill all fauna. “Puff spores” were indigenous but mutated by the pathogen into the spore sprouting fungi (the spore bacteria entering the host had mutated into some kind of eggs).

I don’t think David’s “Bestiary” contains neomorphs but hybrids and mutated forms of insects and small creatures living in water and on land (but in the novelization, there are stuffed neomorphs, xenomorphs and a living egg with a living facehugger - none of which David has created). There are mutations of larger beasts (and Engineers) but they were probably dead when David found them.

However, if one looks at David’s drawings it’s possible that some Engineers survived and David experimented on some of them (tortured them) but I don’t find that likely. There would already be neomorphs around (perhaps even xenomorphs or Deacons) when the Covenant crew arrive.

"Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet."

Lets just look at what we see with the Seeding Ship.... the Pebble Ship drops off a Engineer, he is given a Sacrificial Cup/Bowl and Consumes the Contents and then his DNA/Genetic Material Breaks down and combines with the Pathogen where this Substances then has the Engineers DNA and then THIS is what could either Kick Start Basic Life (Unlikely) or be the Catalyst that Evolves Basic Life to Complex.

So it requires sending down a Engineer, if this Engineer Changes his Mind or he Screws Up.. (Drops the Sacrificial Bowl) then they would have to Force the Engineer or send down another Sacrificial Bowl.

Do they SEND only a Single Engineer to a Planet?

IF they Sacrifice a Engineer and Collect the Resulting Material into Urns and USE them to Seed Worlds i think it makes a Much more EFFICIENT System.

IF they did such, i feel it would be a MUCH better way to Seed Worlds, and i do SUSPECT that this was the Initial Intention of the JUGGERNAUT.....  they can be used to Destroy Worlds too, by Virtue of using Sacrificial Goo alone in the URNS..

Looking at such a Theory and IF it is seen as a Great Honor to be Selected to Seed Worlds then this would Explain the Engineers Welcoming the Ship....

WHO KNOWS... if those Engineers are NOT told the Full Truth, and that they maybe dont know ONCE they are taken on those Ships they would be Taken to be Sacrificed, maybe they could be FOOLED to think they are Selected to go to a New World to Start a Colony like the Covenant Crew....

THAT would be a Sinister Twist that would make the Rituals Cruel!   It would be kind of Similar to the PLOT of the Movie The Island

This kind of Deception would be IDEAL if they ever had Problems with the OLD Method where some Engineers Chosen to go down to a Planet would CHANGE their Mind.

It also could then be Considered if in Part they Created Mankind to be Chosen to be Sacrificed instead of their Own Kind....  or they Engineered those Prometheus Engineers instead, and those Engineers then Created Mankind to Replace them in this TASK?

I would say that the Pathogen in Context to the Infected Neomorph Spores will USE a Host to take on Traits and use the Hosts DNA to Evolve/Gestate the Neomorph.

I would say that would explain WHY it had a somewhat Human Form..

Again though, we could look at the Motes from within the Spores simply Need to take on Nutrients to Grow... either way it seems a Host is Required...

Also i would assume a Neomorph Spore could infect a Goat, but would the Resulting Neomorph be Bi-Pedal?  I think maybe we could get the same Difference between a Goat Neomorph and Human similar to the Cow/Dog Alien compared to Human Xenomorph we saw in the Franchise.

The Neomorphs did seem to walk about more like the Runner in Alien 3 anyway, i would say just as there are NOT a massive Difference between Alien 3 Runner and Alien Drone, i think a Goat Neomorph would likely be similar to a Human Neomorph... maybe the Goat Version could have Horns?

So indeed the Neomorph/Xenomorph maybe does-not take on a Massive Amount of a Hosts Traits?  They are mainly just INCUBATORS for the Parasitic Organisms.

What's the point of hosts again? Nutrient sacks? It doesn't use the hosts DNA to create something new.....A neomorph will appear from a goat or a human.

Alien 3 is the only time this changes?

'The SEEDING ships are disc-like...'

Wow! That's a great catch! I never thought about the different type of planet seeding ships. Makes sense...Juggernauts always seemed small and unable to seed an entire planet.

Wonder how large that seeding ship is? 

@BigDave: Also, while Ridley stated Engineers arrive back on Planet 4 to find it decimated, he also mentioned two or three other players coming in to investigate. Weyland-Yutani might be one, but who might the other two be?

@chli: Are the Creators going to be beings much more Giger-like in appearance?

@BigDave: The SEEDING ships are disc-like, similar to UFOs, so I can understand the Engineers of Planet 4 consider one of those returning to be an honourable event.  But if the LV-223 Engineers had turned bad, why would they consider a Juggernaut’s return as positive?

Well, I think that the notion of “hubris” is meant in the classical Greek way (like Prometheus). If you disregard the gods, “nemesis” awaits you.

If the Engineers are guilty of apotheosis, worshipping the Elders as gods (like Sir Peter Weyland: “We are the gods now”), then “nemesis” befalls them. If there is a hierarchy of “gods” (creators) then the Engineers themselves are but dabblers and punished by the ones who created them - the Creators.

Yeah i think its only a Easter Egg, but it would be interesting to see what would happen IF/WHEN the Company go to Planet 4.

I would assume.... that the Covenant is NOT the only Ship who wants to go to Origae-6 with Colonist to START ANEW!

So i assume another Colonist Mission is incoming a Few Years after the Covenant Arrives at Origae-6 the Crew/Colonist would likely have NO idea about what happened to the Covenant or Prometheus..

I then would assume another Ship could be heading after that, ONE that is a Military/Scientific and that is AWARE of what had happened via Davids Advent Message.

I then assume the Engineers with Walter will make up the 3rd and 4th of the Parties who will eventually arrive where David is off too.

As thats what RS had said about the intended Plot for the Sequel to Alien Covenant.  (Be 3-4 incoming Parties to where David is going... ONE will be the Engineers who return and Discover what Happened on Planet 4 and would want to Catch the Culprit).