Comments (Page 128)
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Scott says a lot so it could be what ever. To me it seems that he isn't interested in the monster, it was obvios in Covenant. I don't care about the David story, I would rather see it thrown away because making it about a robot is boring no matter what kind of themes that you try to bring up. Raised By Wolves seems to have the same problems as AC namely too much about the robots and crappy human characters.
The Engineers seem interesting but if they try to make it about David again they still don't see why people weren't that excited about the prequels. Make a movie about AI if you want but keep it away from the Alien-franchise. Look at the decline from Prometheus to Covenant in profits, if they don't understand that many are not interested in a focus on a crazy robot it seems that they will make the same mistake again and ignore human characters which would mean another crappy alien movie. He can make his android movies if he wants but don't keep them in the alien franchise.
You can show variations of the monster and make it better tied to the Engineers. Don't make David the creator of it because that sucks. There is still room to show that David just made his lesser version, at least it would be better. To me it seems that it is Scott that is out of steam since he only cares about David and that gives us more disappointments in the franchise so it was better before he came back.
"Has the Alien himself, the facehugger, the chestburster, have they all run out of steam? Do you have to rethink the whole bloody thing and simply use the word to franchise?"
Try to expand the franchise isn't a bad idea, I mentioned some routes at the message board that they could take. You don't need to have the monsters in a lot of scenes since there are other ways to build tension. Alien 1 and 3 didn’t feature the monsters that much. What was scary in 1 and 3 is that they were abandoned and left on their own to fight a threat that they were ill-equipped to handle. Of course the Alien looks good but that isn't really why the movies are scary, it depends on the human characters and how they build tension. No, your android-crap has run out of steam.
Even though new things might be interesting I refuse to let the franchise be taken over by the robots just because that is the only thing that he cares about. Covenant became to a big extent mediocre at best because he only cared about David and Walter. Faris and Oram were alright, I wonder if that was luck though.
He should leave the franchise if he doesn't want to stop his AI take-over of it. Not to say that he is on some conspiracy trip but I don't watch it for AI/robots. Artificial things can be robots, computer-programs but what we have seen this far on that theme in the franchise is it being taken over by robots and that is so boring. No more David movies, to make the story about robots is trash even though he likes it. Sorry to those that find the robot thing interesting, this is not an insult to you personally this is just my opinion in case someone is taking offense. Prometheus and Covenant failed in a way and they were to a big extent based on Scott's ideas.
I'm not willing to give a third one a try if he's involved in the writing by giving crappy ideas. To have him involved in any way they need to:
1.Leave the writing to someone that understands the human part. Scott might be good with visuals but he doesn't seem to be a writer and should therefore stay away from the story. No one is good at everything
2.Have it less about androids, really. He only cares about David but Covenant ruined it because it was too much about him even though the differences between him and Walter were interesting. In the end of Covenant he was a space-Hitler and I am not interested in watching that especially if the protagonists are poorly written like they have been this far.
3.Bring us more about the Engineers
He can kind of say anything but it will be what Disney decides what to do. Not interested in a robot anything and people making stupid decisions type of movie. You think he would learn. Also, I'm not sure this is him talking or Disney giving the OK. Unfortunately I tend to believe the latter. If Disney was smart a fresh perspective and direction.
Nothing new.
Ridley said before Covenant: "Prometheus was mistake, we're going to take a new direction with the Covenant. This will be the beginning of a new trilogy."
Despite the fact that he wanted a trilogy with Prometheus.
Not so long ago, Scott spoke about the continuation of the Covenant and he said that the new film will once again be the beginning of a new trilogy.
Thus, we have the same scheme:
1) Declaring an old movie a mistake.
2) Reflections on a new direction.
3) Announcement of a new film and a new trilogy.
BigDave often says: how long can you repeat the same plot moves and show the same beast?
But I guess the only important question is: how long can you give up the sequel to the previous film and try to start from scratch?
This does, to an extent confirm that the third prequel may be focused more on AI rather than the aliens, which Ridley has said about before. Also, we could possibly see the third film being set around the origins of the derelict ship on LV 426, which will be interesting, a film based entirely around the engineers or other species above them would be a good idea to look at. However, for now it's just wait and see.
What a truly profound question.
"what exactly is the sleeping pilot we meet in Prometheus capable of, indeed what is it?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuA-xqBw4jE
(always verify links before clicking on them for security..You can also go to youtube and look up the movie as well.)
This is the link to Youtube...for the video trailer for the movie called Life, released 2017. I like the ever increasing ominous tone of the movie and how the production team executed great special effects. $58 million production budget....I think this demonstrates that exceptional movies can be made with amazing science fiction horror and incredible tension.
This film scared the you know what out of me even as an adult.....with Prometheus you are at a petting zoo for little kids...the entire film is just not scary in any way.....the Hammerpede wrapped around the arm was interesting...
So for me when I see the engineer suit that is part of the body....so they might wear it like clothing. They can take layers off, but when they apply one it digs in to their dermis and becomes part of them.....what do all the different layers do? Some of this should be left to the audiences imagination. With the full suit they can work in highly corrosive environments for example.....I think they were the ones to make the black goo and the Xeno...but that is how I would have made these films.
I would have made them a little taller too....15 foot minimum...and the suits are weapons for example...you see the acid for blood in the original alien....so in Prometheus I would have had the Engineer touch one of the humans and then they would have dissolved down rapidly into a pool of carbon very quickly just by touching them...those suits would produce food from sourced nano atoms around them and compile the finished nutrients right into the vascular systems....
This is all off the top of my head. I am sure if sat down and wanted to give this a proper treatment I could think of some things that would translate more effectively on the big screen.
The battle with the squid monster at the end was unforgivable....something like that and the engineer would have just touched it, secreted a substance so deadly it would made that thing wither, die, and shrivel up almost instantly melting all horribly down into the floor....these are billion year old creatures that have far surpassed the limits of molecular biology and the quantum mechanics of physics mixed with nano technology. To be subdued by something with physical appendages is a very sinful mistake to be making with the plot and characters. It makes a fool of the audience straight away in an unnecessarily aggressive way.
If you have not seen that movie Life or you have, I think it would be interesting to apply those qualities but then morph them into the suit/skin. The suit is that "frightening."
These are movies you can do almost anything with them with the right ideas. They can scare an audience so bad it would need group therapy right after LOL....Prometheus is clumsy, slow, juvenile, and has plot holes so bad you drive the Sulaco through them....with a staggering 130 Million dollar budget...maybe they bought very expensive coffee for the crew instead of producing a great scary Alien film instead....would be nice to see their ledgers....cause the money did not get spent on making real sci-fi entertainment.
This is no slight to RS either I know about the studio and the calls he got while in production...a lot of this was never his fault in any way what so ever. He wanted a much different treatment / taller Engineers and they told him no causing him to scrap a lot of ideas and sets. BD should be able to confirm that because he has more specifics on just how silly the studio was with the other sets RS wanted to build and film.
On the specific point of the Engineers appearance in the Movie.
The wake-up scene needed to make its point very quickly wonder to horror with the Trigger the Engineer mortally wounding Weyland with his creation. There is so much in that moment, the benediction, David's wonder, then the shock and the beautifully pathetic notion of the creator the wizened old man floored by the head which lies disembodied.
As for everything after that its one of the consequences of merely overlaying Jon Sphaits action beats replacing the Ultramorph by the Bad Tempered Big Guy.
Both Paradise, the recent entwining of the two movies, and my remodelled novel cast all that aside. Indeed we leave all of the same material out bar Vickers.
Much deeper into my story in the second part when creatures Billions of Years Old, who have mastered the secrets of the Universe, feel the need to lay the law down and exercise their power it does not involve chasing anyone around an escape pod. These are creatures that hold within their grasp the ability to shape worlds and catalyse life but then that poses another interesting question, what exactly is the sleeping pilot we meet in Prometheus capable of, indeed what is it?
Prometheus - The Movie
The more I listen to Ridley the more I hear the businessman lining up Trilogies. He talked about a set of Prometheus Movies he talked about a new set of Alien Movies.
To really answer your tactical points he should just make one great movie and leave it at that. That's not an original thought but the focus should be on telling a story that people come away from knowing something not all this leaving it out for the next movie. Jim Cameron is here in New Zealand making an Avatar Sequel good for him but we do not need one from a storytelling point of view. Avatar was a one night stand and a very entertaining one.
Mystery
This is more of the answer to thoughts and dreams. If you show a degraded holographic image of the past and some real-time artefacts, that creates mystery. It's just the former need to have some exposition that communicates.
When I wrote the scene of David in the Juggernaut I put the Jockey Station at the centre of the Bridge so the reader knew where they were (tick) and then revealed much more detailed and meaningful holograms which told a story. I am layering in the Engineers into the story. After the scene with the head, we know these guys are jockeys so let's get on with some more detail and flesh it out. There are far more clues. You have to have the balance of clues right with a mystery.
When they enter the Headroom Sanctuary there isn't one mural, which you can barely see in the film, there are several of them which underwrites Steve Messing's point that the Deacon was the unholy progression of all that had come before. But it is still a place of mystery, of looking back into an ancient past. You want a mystery but you want a decent substantial question to ask. But what caused the Storm, the Urns to leak the Murals to disintegrate? That can be a mystery that no one even appreciates is happening.
Janek's conversation with Vickers is important because what he says to her is actually the truth wrapped up in speculation. I gave Vickers a much more satisfying arc and that scene is important in the context of that and the "what's gone on here" vibe.
When you arrive at the Homeworld it's not downtown New York. You are looking back into the deep ancient past to see what happened. There is still a mystery.
If you have a proxy you can identify with and the right balance of clues its perfectly possible to offer a satisfying complex many-layered mystery. I would suggest that mode of storytelling is particularly suited to the philosophical questions that Prometheus poses. Indeed it's particularly suited to Prometheus because the ideas it is tackling in the real world are a mystery!!
We all learn slowly but surely what we like. I am pushed back by the obvious and drawn in by the subtle. Equally, when I write something I write that way.
I am going to GET SLATED for this ;)
I have NOT seen Avatar yet, tried to watch it before and could not get into IT. I do OWE it a viewing though.
Effects wise i think it was all SHINY and GLOSSY but a lot of it did look TOO CGI! Some Scenes came across more PIXAR... as in the Na'vi and their World. Now dont get me WRONG the CGI was Good and Vast on Scale but just looked more like a Borderline Between a Live Action Sci-Fi and a Pixar Movie.
But i cant PASS a Judgement on it until i have SEEN IT (instead of just not being able to pay attention).
The Avatar Story is ONE that is aimed at a Larger Audience than ALIEN so its NOT quite Fair to Compare them.
With Inflation the Avatar Budget would be Equal to about DOUBLE what Prometheus had... with a Big Budget you can add all sorts of SHINY EFFECTS and Explosions and Stuff like a Transformers Movie etc.
I think if we did a ALIEN Prequel Reboot and it had with Inflation something like a 300M Budget you could have loads of Flashy Effects... but it would depend on the STORY.
With loads of stuff like that you could Run the Risk of having a AVP meets Starship Troopers kind of Popcorn Flick.
I like Prometheus because of the POTENTIAL that the Plot had Unlocked, more so than HOW Great or Not the Actual Movie Execution was.
Looking roughly at AVATAR and the Plot as its Core (as far as i Understand) then you could have had that SET in the ALIEN Universe for sure...
Weyland-Yutani Company Discover a World and they WANT to gain Something from this Place for Financial Gain but the Planet has some Humanoid Inhabitants who are in their way?
So replace the Na'vi with Arcturians and Follow a similar Plot to AVATAR and then say if AVATAR had never exisited then YES such a Movie could have Existed in the ALIEN Universe prior to the Prequels.
With the Prequel Plot then who is to say that there are NOT many Worlds out their with Humanoid Inhabitants who are a little Different to Humans and we see the Humans Greed as we TRY to Rape their World for Resources.
Prometheus had its Flaws..... it had Potential to explore things BEYOND the Eggs and Queens...
In a IDEAL World then they should have INVESTED say $150M in a Sequel that would have taken us back to LV-223 that would have been more Popcorn Action Horror with Various Monsters and Clues to the Xenomorph that would have then CLOSED THE DOOR to ALIEN.
That via more Exploration of the Horrors that are Connected to the Xenomorph we have GIVEN the Xenomorph another String to its BOW..... something to Further Expand on if wanted.
It could have left a bit of Ambiguity and Intrigue towards the Engineers so Fans may want to know more about them and what other STUFF they Create.... and WHERE else have they tried to DESTROY...
Then we go and have another Sequel to Prometheus that goes to where David and Dr Shaw are off too... TAKE THEM to a FAR FAR place.... were we can cover more about the Engineers, the Creation Plot.... what other Races have they Created and OPEN UP a Expanded Franchise that does-not have to be about LV-426 and Xenomorphs.
But ALAS.... we never got this... FOX Buckled and Felt they had to give us a MOVIE which will Answer the Origins to the Xenomorph and give us Xenomorphs and SET-UP the Path to ALIEN but also that this had to also be a Movie about David.....
Instead of a TWO Branches Expansion to Prometheus as i discussed above.
A lot comes down to MONEY and it seemed FOX just never Fancied Risking a BIG BUDGET on the Franchise.... and with the MESS its in NOW then i am NOT Sure Disney would either.
I think maybe you could go and see the Engineers and have them going around with their Horrors and Technology but its a case of HOW does this NOT go and Conflict with the Franchise.... there seemed to be NO signs that we had been Hunted Down by a Angry Advanced Race of Humanoids...
If the Engineers are in Large Number and with more Weaponry than we have been Shown... it would be like the Colonial Marines vs Cavemen.
You could say that with AVATAR we have a Technologically Advanced Race vs a RACE that is NOT..... However the Na'Vi seem to have the Numbers Game and are Physically more Superior to Humans.
The Danger with the Engineers is they look Equally as Superior as the Na'Vi with more Advanced Technology than the Humans. If say the Na'Vi World was one the Engineers wanted and they Wanted to RID this Place of them..... Then the Juggernauts and Black Goo would DESTROY them with Ease.... the same applies to US.
If the Engineers had other kinds of Advanced Weapons
Then it would also NOT be a Fair Fight.... unless some of that Tech was USED against them.
So when Exploring Engineers with a Dislike for Mankind who are coming to Destroy us... the Likely thing to BALANCE the Books is the Engineers bringing with them something like the Xenomorph that they LOOSE CONTROL over and Turns on them.
"Seriously the more movies that we get the more likely it is that they will be crappy not only in quality of the movies but we would also get a messed up timeline."
Absolutely i think ANY Franchise can Suffer if we keep on Churning out Sequels and Prequels and Especially if its not a SET IN STONE Series so that Each New Addition the New Writers and Directors put their OWN spin on it.
Even Reboots dont always work....
This comes down to Alien 3 and its Problems... there was too many Cooks in the Kitchen a Developmental Nightmare, but over all i think its a Movie that Grows on you ONCE you look past some of the Flaws... for me the EFFECTS are NOT to the Standard Expected.... but it Concluded the Story of Ripley and i felt it was Decent.
The Disappointment with some of the Effects Aside... the Biggest BUG i have with Alien 3 was merely down to the Plot Device to get the Eggs... it was like a Convenience with NO thought whats so ever...
I feel whats DONE is DONE..... so with Ripley she is DEAD... move ON! But Ripley 8 well thats something they COULD choose to Explore.
I will have to take a look at Alien Earth Hive but i think bringing the Xenomorph to Earth Plot wise has its Risks. I have not checked out that Story though or many Novels so maybe i need to and Appreciate them or Dislike them as Alternative Canon.
"This, it would be like first A didn't happen so they write B and then for some reason someone else in the future says that no B didn't happen so they write C, and so on"
This is MY GREATEST Concern with Disney in Power over the Franchise and indeed the Greater Risk of doing any kind of RETCON, REBOOT or Dreams.
If Fans want their Xenomorphs.... they did NOT have to have DIED OUT with the Destruction of Hadleys Hope or the USM Auriga.
You dont have to Reboot etc anything to GET the Xenomorph back and you CERTAINLY should not be trying to Reboot anything to bring back Ripley.
One other Thing!
HUMAN CHARACTERS......
Indeed for the Most Part you Need them and this is what Causes a Problem with Expansion as far as WHAT ELSE the Engineers have Created etc.... take Avatar would a World like that and Movie had Worked if we NEVER had any Humans in it?
If the Plot to Avatar was in the Future Humans had been Wiped Out on Earth by Advanced Apes (Planet of the Apes) and these Apes replaced the Humans in Avatar then this WOULD effect HOW Connected we are with the Movie so it maybe would not WORK as well.
So the Necessity for Humans does kind of HOLD BACK to what you can do..... its One of the Reasons for maybe giving us a Alien Covenant Plot where some Human Colonist can END UP on the World that David and Dr Shaw had got to, and thus making Planet 4 closer to HOME for Plot Convenience.
Because well a Movie about a Android David and ONE Human in Dr Shaw is NOT going to be Enough Humans for maybe a Movie to Work... well to gain Interest from a Wider Audience.
BUT..... this is Merely the Limitations of the Imaginations and Consideration to the Engineers Plot of those working on a Prometheus 2!
Do the Engineers look like a Species who would PUT all of their EGGS in ONE Basket? (Pun Intended)
Are we Humans on Earth just a ONE OFF?
There could be other Humanoids.. surely
When using Star Trek as a Example.... we see some of these Humanoids are NOT too Close to Humans so maybe a Movie with them and NO Humans is something that Fans maybe WONT be able to Relate to?
But some are Very Close (Bajoran, Vulcan) but again maybe Fans wont relate to them, well you would still NEED to have Humans!
Well here is the THING..... what is to say that the Engineers had not Seeded Humans Elsewhere or had taken some from Earth to other Worlds in the Past?
Battlestar Galactica/Caprica and Star Wars had Humans and NONE of these came from Earth ;)
And so you could have a Movie or TV Series thats SET in the ALIEN Universe with Humans who have NEVER been to Earth, or their Ancestors did Thousands of Years ago.
Can we even SAY within Context to the Alien Franchise... that Humans came from Earth? We could have been taken to the Earth many many Thousands of Years ago.
So thats something they COULD have Considered! Its what i did for my Idea in 2013 to where Dr Shaw and David would END UP ;)
@Thoughts_Dreams
Good Points..... i think that INDEED there are MANY avenues to HOW you could Expand something within the ALIEN Universe or even do something NEW within it.
I think the PROBLEM that is Faced with the Franchise (Original Quadrilogy) is getting people to LOOK BEYOND what they THINK what would Constitute the ALIEN Franchise.
*The Alien Franchise was about Ripleys Saga but that does not mean the Franchise has to be about her and there is NOTHING ALIEN about her.... Apart from Ripley 8 ;)
*The Franchise had Corporate/Scientific Greed and Agenda to OBTAIN the Xenomorph, but it Delt with TWO Companies... but these are NOT ALIEN.
*The Franchise had Androids but again these are NOT ALIEN.
*The Franchise in EVERY MOVIE had Featured the Xenomorph and this was INDEED ALIEN.
But there was ANOTHER Aspect of ALIEN that was a Extension of the Xenomorph that had its Origins, which was the Derelict and Space Jockey and these were ALIEN.
So if we look at the Space Jockey as being ALIEN too, then the Prequels showing us they are the Engineers who are a ALIEN species should Constitute anything about them as being ALIEN, which also includes anything LINKED to LV-223 which is a Precursor to LV-426
So we can Safely Say that IF there was No Engineers on LV-223 doing those kinds of Experiments or having the Black Goo then there would be NO ALIEN.
And so the Vanilla Xenomorph we got in the Franchise is NOT the First, and does not have to be the LAST kind of Alien Horror that is OUT THERE in the Galaxy thats Connected to the Xenomorph Ancestry.
But INDEED the Franchise can Expand Further than just what came from LV-223, but its a Case of would some Fans consider such a Venture as being part of the ALIEN Franchise?
I think what gets me is SOME FANS would maybe NOT consider something that goes to WHAT ELSE the Engineers had Created thats NOT connected at all to LV-223/LV-426.
However if they got a Colonial Marines Spin Off that does-not even have Xenomorphs or similar they would Consider that as a ALIEN Movie by Virtue of the Marines.
I think there is a LOT you could Expand and Explore with the Franchise.
"New vaccines were mentioned in AR, maybe they could try to use the Xeno for medical purposes"
I think thats something to look at YES, because as a Bio-Weapon its Certainly not the BEST.... Horrific Certainly but the Negatives outweigh the Positives for me.
Thats WHY i did a Topic before to look at the Reason for the Pursuit of the Xenomorph and Purpose. And when we look at RIPLEY 8 you can see the HUGE Benefits that the Xenomorph DNA has given her. She essential is FAR more Superior than a Replicant... We got to see the Engineers in Prometheus vs Alien Covenant and those in Prometheus look Genetically Advanced/Engineered and maybe the Black Goo or what Predated that is something that was USED to Engineer those Prometheus Goons!
From a Military Perspective them a Army of Ripley 8's would be better than Xenomorphs.... there is ONE Problem.... that is FREE-WILL and also Genetic Memory. These are Recipes for your Super Soldiers to go AWOL.
The Problem we have which could be with other AVENUES to Expand the Franchise is such a PLOT (Super Soldiers using Ripley 8 DNA) would not be Accepted or gain a Interest from some Fans because it has no Xenomorphs.
I completely understand that....the duality of seeing it play out then the vividness from the other senses.
I liked how they scanned the structure of the helmet the WiZZZZZZ and sounds of the computers then the medical electrical device to trick the cells into accepting the electrical charge change states....very interesting stuff to be sure.
That is the best thing about movies, is that your mind fills in the gaps of what you think should be there so it can really come alive....obviously we all know it's just actors and props; but, they were so good that bunch in that movie...for just a few minutes it is exceptional art that transports you to another place.
Great art can do that.....there is something always more than the sum of the parts....that is the real magic of great movies.
Black Ant
I would like to have seen more of the Engineers in Prometheus because they were interesting. Prometheus was somehow successful as far as profits are concerned because it was the first alien related movie in a while and also Scott was back. One problem is that we should have had more of them because it was kind of disappointing and hence not as many people saw Covenant. Even if Prometheus would have been a success they should have had a bit more of the Engineers if it wouldn't have made as much money. They should have been better explained in Prometheus so maybe more people would have liked to see them in Covenant and also we would maybe have had them in more scenes other that David bombing them.
You mentioned when they examined the Engineer head and it exploded. That scene didn't scare me but it felt kind of icky because imagine the possible stench and also I imagined it being kind of sticky like their equivalent of how humans have fluid that surround their brains. It didn't make me scream it was more like "eew!!" but it always feels more disgusting when I think about it compared to when I see it in the movie.
I think that is well a very accurate well worded summation of these films.
I am stuck on the genius of RS though carried through these other films muted very badly by rough scripts and penny pinching studios...RS took us through the haunted house and I was always along for the ride...but audiences do not get these slower films....it does mean they are wrong they are just different films for different reasons artistically.
Prometheus could have been much better than Avatar....although I like Avatar artistically for purely aesthetic reasons lets be completely honest the acting is less then stellar.....and the special effects carry that film a whole lot.
Could Prometheus have had more action sequences and for TLOG.....could we have had some real interaction with the Engineers!!!! AHH it litterally makes you want to scream...the reason for the film plot wise is to go meet these Engineer GODS!!! and they are set decorations essentially....they are treated as plot devices when they are the purpose for the film and at the end of the film it is the worst....one is just running around CHASING DR. SHAW!!!! and these are several billion year old aliens that made us....
It all makes no sense and as much as I like BD, and I know he will defend this film to the end, I sometimes really hate how we all were just royally S@$%#! ED over in this film....if it was not the dialog it was the plot....if not the plot it was the treatment the Engineers were given....like I said before I think almost every frame of that film is stunning....beautiful....the sets were very cool ect....but, the monsters and the slow pace.....been there done that with so many many many of these films....we deserved better and RS should have delivered. But he did not.
The scene where they analyse the Engineer head was the best thing I have seen in Sci-fi. If I had to pick on thing out of all the sci-fi movies I have ever seen it would be that one. If only the rest of the film could have had that type of creativity...the second best scene is when David peers into Dr. Shaw's dream....I think RS gets that so right on so many levels....like I said some things in that film are so incredible....the map room when the 3D holomap appears on the Juggernaut...
I know when they examine the engineer head RS is just rehashing his scene with the tension created by the face hugger with Kane when Ash and Dallas are trying to remove it....we all get that but I don't care it is still one of my favorite scenes of all time in all of sci-fi....very transcendental work as great as it will ever be done in all of any type of artwork!
But over-all the movie as a whole is a rough draft....it should not have been written and produced that way....they had so many talented and gifted people to work with and so much equipment, those incredible sets....it was somehow wasted.
I think that she (that's a queen, right?) is hungry.
"That was the last carrot! Damn you rabbit for stealing my dinner!" :D
Leto: I Agree that Alien R isn't that good, I totally disagree about Alien 3 though. I read a bit about the Alien thing that you mentioned and maybe that could happen in another part of the universe that would have nothing to do with Alien 3 so it would not replace Alien 3 but just be there in some place and time. To me it is not an empty canon kind of thing, I just don't see how it can be improved. 3 is not a clumsy mistake, it is great especially when you look at the circumstances that it was made under.
"The very concept of the canon is a plague."
Nah, if it gives us a time-line with an opening, action, and an end and if it manages to get it right it is good and should be left alone. If you would erase this then it would be a risk that you get endless continuation after let's say Aliens and then what even matters? I am a kind of person that like to keep things in order and to have things in a logical way and if you would do like what you suggest it would end up in chaos and then also if the next movie would stink it would make things worse. Seriously the more movies that we get the more likely it is that they will be crappy not only in quality of the movies but we would also get a messed up timeline.
It is not about being forced, it's about keeping things in a logical way. Alien 1 to 3 was Ripley's story even though some might dislike it and it had a fitting end in Alien 3.
"In this case, you will never get rid of the poisonous and toxic notes about Alien 3."
Alien 3 is my favorite, I would rather keep it. I read a bit about Earth Hive, it didn't do much for me. There are many people that like 3 and if you would change that it will piss them off also or at least make them disappointed and get more that dislike where things are going. In case you are wondering just look at the prequels.
"A 28-year-old mistake must be fixed!"
You might call it a mistake, I call it a fitting closure. To me it would most likely be a failure if they would try to replace Alien 3, I just don't see how it can be improved and yes I would most likely be disappointed. It is more likely that we will get another AVP than another Alien as far as quality goes so I am 75% against it and 25% in favor of it if you wonder.
Also if you replace Alien 3 with something else you might as well do that to Alien 1 and 2. I don't see how Alien 1 and 2 should get a special treatment just because they are classics while 3 should be ignored because to me 3 is up there with one and two.
To continue with the idea of replacing things you might also think about it like this: someone somewhere how unlikely that even might be prefers the prequels over the originals so they might want to replace the classics because they don't follow their wished ideas of the prequels. If you would go on like this you might end up with 28 different timelines (obviously an exaggeration, I know) then the franchise would be meaningless so it would become a joke and should as well be abandoned. Also it would open up things to be retconned and reused 100 times over and get really boring. No one will ever be satisfied is my point so let it all be the way it is now.
Earth-Hive seems like a mix of Aliens and AVP in tone. I am not interested in that, sorry, besides we already have Aliens. Time for something new, for example the Engineers.
If they decide to go on with Ripley they should do a reboot, not continue with where the Ripley-movies are now.
"Personally for me..... i am NOT a FAN of the Dreams Angle.... it can just give Disney a Lazy Excuse to just Re-write stuff over and over and over...." - BD
This, it would be like first A didn't happen so they write B and then for some reason someone else in the future says that no B didn't happen so they write C, and so on.
You have a point here, that is why I like the addition of the Engineers. Eventually there could be different Engineers or at least variations of them both in how they look (just like some some people have curly hair while some people don't) and how they live. The Arcturians were mentioned in Aliens but we have never seen them in any movie so there's potential there. Maybe they could introduce another sort of life-form or civilization that they could at least have in books. Eventually you could have different civilizations that are involved in an arms race where the Xeno could play a small role, just to link them together, it doesn't mean that it has got to be the focus.
It would be like Xeno --> colony (aliens) arcturians get mentioned, who are they? --> a movie or book about the arcturians, maybe they have been to other planets so you could write about that. They would be spin-offs but I think that you need something that ties them together, what ever that might be and also don't put a lot of contradicting stuff in it. Just show that it's in the alien-universe so people don't get confused like some might have been with Lindelof when he said something like "is this an alien movie?" bla bla bla. Have it in the alien universe but be honest and say that's the case if so otherwise it's annoying.
Coming up with new planets is something that I think that prequels did right, so you could open up the franchise a little. Who knows what those planets might have?
Prometheus for all its faults opened up for new things by having the Engineers. Maybe there's a possibility to add even more life-forms? The central thing to tie them all together should be the human experience and terror, but other than that there could be other things added to it.
Maybe there's a possibility to go back to old books to find inspiration and see that there's a possibility to make new worlds, and lifeforms. There have been famous authors that have dealt with things like that. Not to say that you should copy them but it's possible to find inspiration and to alienize that.
At the same time maybe they need to have a story group or what ever that makes sure that it doesn’t turn into chaos and a lot of contradictory things at least as far as the official things are concerned. To me movies are official, the rest is expanded universe.
For future projects I hope that they won't drop the Engineers. Hopefully they understand that they can be part of other things.
Maybe there's a possibility to come up with something that's in competition with WY. The corporate angle is something that could be expanded on. What about if they try to focus on a world where they have huge privatized army that WY or another company uses to explore the galaxy. Those corporations could have somewhat different means to try to conquer things so it could be interesting to see how they differ towards each-other.
New vaccines were mentioned in AR, maybe they could try to use the Xeno for medical purposes and not only for bio-weapons. I'm not sure how this could be expanded. If they weren't to be used as bio-weapons then maybe they could be used for something else like how viruses can be used for different purposes. A misuse of science for own private gains could be a theme that can be explored more.
What about having a spin-off where the theme is the justice-system? A privatized jail-system, police and so on. Yes we had the prison planet in Alien 3 but maybe that could be expanded on. We already have private security companies so that would not be a very huge stretch when you think about it. The theme could be what people can do when they are in it for their own gains and don't care about anyone else. My guess is that the theme of greed can be dealt with in different ways even in the alien-franchise.
We have the colonial marines, they can also be brought into this. They are a part of humanity as a whole and could also be there to show us that even though for example new planets, and new monsters are parts of it it's still about the human experience.
Maybe they could have a story where the black goo is used. I'm not sure how that would be but at least it's something that the prequels have given us. What about if some factions try to make it more perfect and try to make it into an even better weapon.
This whole post is about eventual ways that they could expand the franchise so we don't have the Xeno involved in everything. Perhaps there could be different morphs or at least something that lets you know that it's in the alien-franchise. Expanding it while making it clear that it's in the alien franchise might be difficult but it has got to be done, don't be too vague about it.
In this post I have tried to bring up the Engineers, WY, military, corporations, prisons, arcturians, the black goo and how it could be used in different stories, other life forms and civilizations. My point is that there are old things that can be expanded on and new things that can be introduced while having the human experience at the center of it.
Jonesy deserves credits, he survived a close encounter with the Xeno. Close encounters with the Xeno-kind. :D
Most of the humans died, the cat survived and lived the rest of his life happy ever after at the space station (Aliens, at least I hope that he did).
I wonder what Scott or Weaver would say if they heard that song? This is a serious question, I say that it is probably not that common to make a song about an animal in a movie. My guess is that it is more common to write pictures or make books that are alien related.
Speaking of the Prodigy, they should do a techno song when they sample Brett when he said something like
"Jonesy, meoww, that kitty stuff" and have it here and there in the song.
BD
I am not even sure what Scott thought of the work that Spaights did. There are some scripts that I have read and they are better than the final result. Judging from what I have read I prefer the Spaight's version because they seem more down to earth and less mystery just for the sake of having mystery. Not to say that everything has to be obvious but I am not sure if Lindelof contributed with a lot even though he did better work compared to what was the final movie but at the same time getting a better movie than the final result shouldn't be too difficult even though it's a masterpiece compared to Batman and Robin and AVPR. :D
They should have had more monsters that were closer to the Xeno without it being a Xeno, other than the Deacon at the end. As much as I think that the Engineers is an interesting idea they should have made more sense of them in the movie but that might have to do with mysteries by Lindelof.
Ford didn’t have a big part but I think that they should have done better with her character. She wasn’t annoying as far as I remember it but I am not sure if she contributed with anything. As far as I know she was as (non)important to the story as the mercenaries that Weyland had.
Vickers was a bit bitchy but at least she wasn’t stupid like Shaw. I probably like Vickers more than Shaw but both characters should have been better written and executed on the screen. There were some extra material with Vickers in it, they should have added some of that to flesh out her personality.
You added some interesting things in your writing. Milburn and the chestbusting, it would be cool if we would have seen something like the tentacles shooting out through the body like the concept art of Holloway I think that it was. Here is the picture that I mentioned:
That was supposed to be Holloway, or am I mistaken? No matter who the character was. That would be cool to see instead of the eyeworm which wasn’t very impressive although the thought of having a parasite inside is nasty. Speaking of the eyeworm there is such a thing, it is called Thelazia which you can read about if you want.
"It would have given us a INDICATION that the Hammerpede had LAID a Egg in Milburn that then Produces a New Monster"
For a reason this reminds me of the flies which can lay eggs into human beings and animals, you can read about it at Encyclopedia Britannica. The process is called myiasis and seems to very very icky.
DK
Speaking of the RT scores I find it… interesting. You have the critics and what they say and then you have the audience's scores. The audience's score for Prometheus sits at 68% and the one for Covenant is 55%. I agree somehow with the score of Covenant even though I still find it to be too high as far as my taste goes but it is closer to what I would rate it while I don't get the score for Prometheus at all.
My rate for both movies would probably be 40% because the characters are either mostly annoying or just don't bring much to the story (Prometheus), or uninteresting (Covenant, most of them). Eventually the actors did what they could so I blame it on the script and the editing in both cases. How can movies with such for the most part crappy characters get a rating that high? Sure they look good but most of the characters. . . are disappointments. Art is subjective and people sure can have and should be allowed to have different opinions but sometimes I just shake my head at how people rate things.
To all that have that have given your ideas here: I appreciate all of your replies, feel free to add more if you want to.
On the broad thrust of your question, I like unexplored vista's which draw you in but never quite answer your question always leaving more. Probably because that is how life is, people are, puzzling inscrutable and life is a journey to understanding who we are and then what is going on around us and how we come to terms with that.
In the case of the Alien films as someone who watched them real-time, I thought the texture ALIEN passed through was full of mystery. To begin we had a craft from some faraway world which had landed and the explorer came across this Cave full of thousands of Ovoids. That really didn't need explaining, the pilot made the same mistake the Nostromo did but then a few years later the Cave was the Cargo Bay and there was a relationship between the Pilot and its Cargo. Where was it going what were its intentions, what went wrong?
The subsequent films were by degrees entertaining, mixed and kitsch but there was no mystery there was merely function. Nothing surprised and they were carried by Signorney and in the case of Aliens a director who knew how to make the subject matter bigger and more entertaining.
Prometheus
Jon Sphaits would have delivered a dovetail, a march to the inevitable removing all the mystery. But Ridley saw the creation story as a chance to solve one mystery and create many more.
I loved the way Prometheus worked, the answers came from elliptical analogy and visual messages. The intercut between "what killed them" and David opening the glass vial and revealing the Black Tar liquid a simple clue.
People like to present Prometheus as confused but if you listen to Jon talking about Damon's ideas in the documentary they are one single voice.
All of them were aware of the risk of hijacking peoples childhood memories and they produced a Cult One off Movie which Damon anticipated as a possibility in the commentary.
But it set up wonderful mysteries to ponder and offered some terrifying possibilities which are so grave people never discuss them it's almost too big. What if we were created by dark angels for the sheer hell of it which bleeds into the great undertow of the movie that drove everything Hubris. All of them were hubristic Weyland most of all but Charlie, Elizabeth and David who let things run away from him, the clever adolescent who gets his head removed as a consequence of his smugness.
So we are left forever with the great mystery, what would Elizabeth have arrived at to get her answers. Answers that don't matter according to David and answers that David already knows the answer to. The irony is David may know the most but he has no idea where he fits in. Given other things Ridley has said the answer is no different to the truth for Elizabeth. So if they are a footnote what is the big note and that to me is a great mystery to be left with.
If we are the result of fallen angels swirling around in a Petri Dish whats the real deal.
BlackAnt In short, I think Prometheus would have been a great movie if it was not related to the Alien franchise at all and the characters were better written. Back to the OP- the sense of mystery turned into frustration and cliff hangers.
The first few Alien movies had a sense of mystery partly because we didn't expect sequels back then.
In hindsight, while the prequels definitely had their strengths, they just felt unsatisfying when the dust settled. Maybe I just don't get it, but the Rotten Tomatoes numbers seem to be on my side. It's too bad because I really wanted to like these movies.
Side note: The RBW trailers mention Scott's movies such as Alien, Gladiator and The Martian but not Prometheus, Covenant or even Blade Runner. Interesting...
@BD
All very interesting points and counter points you raise…I like where you are going with a lot those explanations why they went there linking it all to how they may or may not find the engineers.
I would like to add that RS makes impressive large set pieces, going all the way back to Alien, that takes a long time for the actors to walk through slowing the pace of the film down.
So these films all have different action sequences where RS takes the audience on a different haunted house ride.
There are a few points though that would be interesting as well to figure out why the writers, producers, and RS did what they did in Prometheus when related to other recently released sci-fi films. I know you want to discuss specific plot details of Prometheus but at some point it becomes less useful a tool artistically when discussing films unless you compare this film with other works closely related in the genera.
Please keep in mind that Prometheus comes out three years after Avatar, and Avatar pulls in the most money of any film ever made at the time 2009. Please keep all those very important details in mind because they are relevant to how RS might could have introduced bigger action sequences and then into other Alien movies so audiences will enjoy the films better and also want to see more special effects similar to those in Avatar like movies….in other words Prometheus 2012 could have earned a billion and half dollars if RS really knew what he was doing.
However, RS chose to make a big slow clunky haunted house plot that actors walked through with cheap special effect gags in them and even more horrible dialog….they produced the seen with the Hammerpede for next to nothing. That was some really cheap special effects compared to the anything closely related to Avatar…I believe they could have gone larger and bigger in Prometheus without making it cartoonish. So I do disagree on specific plot points and the box office receipts prove what I say as well as the millions of people around the world that liked Avatar much more….after coming out the movie theaters from Prometheus many movie goers said they not only disliked the film but they were done with the franchise and would not like to see another film again…..these are not my opinions these are the facts from millions of other real people around the world.
I was impressed that Prometheus could earn a half billion dollars for such low quality film plot wise and with far less impressive special effects.
Now I will always defend RS on the visual aesthetics of Prometheus. Prometheus is a great looking film….it is a very interesting film visually….however it is very slow and boring and the many of the monsters look terrible and are not scary…but once again do not take my word for it….we are talking in terms of real box office receipts and what millions of movie goers had to say about Prometheus overall.
This is not always accurate but it is indicative of what I have just pointed out in general.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/prometheus_2012
Audience Score 68% User rating – 263,170 movie goers….
Contrast this all with what you saw in Avatar and just try to imagine how some of it could have been carried over and done better in Prometheus is all I am saying.
Avatar remains the highest-grossing movie at the international box office (i.e., not counting its domestic gross), with a take of $2.029 billion compared with Endgame's $1.936 billion).Jul 23, 2019
So no matter what characterizations you are presenting it makes little difference if the film is so poorly received and able to understand because of poor writing, plot and other details that the studios will not be able to make another film….compared to what Avatar earned and the way people liked it around the world.
But I guess RS got us again…..and if you are one of those people that enjoys slow walks with a lot of boring useless dialog through the haunted house then this is your movie….
Unfortunately for me I like those boring walks too, hate to say that, but it is the truth….however, I also want the big expensive special effects that look real cool and that interest me artistically because I enjoy good movie making in general.
So it looks like we are in the same boat somewhat on this film…we don’t have the real need to say this film could have done so much more. Then again we will see what happens in the future if these films ever get made again….the studio that owns the film rights now has so many other big action sci-fi films to make in the lineup that can earn tens of billions of dollars in the way fans want to be entertained….guaranteed. Prometheus was a huge gamble and after advertising was still disappointing in overall gross proceeds.
So no matter what you or I think about how great these films were or not so great on some of these points there are just too many other films audiences would rather see that will earn this studio tens of billions for the foreseeable future.
However, should there be one of those really spectacular writers out there and a very professional director that might one day put out a screen play that could be turned into real money due to evolving movie goers expectations you can bet your bottom dollar it won’t be a slow walk through the big haunted house sets that consistently earn less money for this studio and that fans do not want to see anymore.
We got something very unique and interesting with Alien 1979…..it is and shall be one of the great epic sci-fi horror films fore decades to come….who knows maybe even a after both of us are gone other keen movie aficionados might still appreciate it's finer artistic qualities.
"Their power is an illusion they are false gods."
I would thoroughly recommend Paradise. It is well crafted and gives both elements more weight. The entwining of the discovery of Elizabeth's grave with Elizabeth's story is beautifully done.
The musical choices, actually playing Country Roads into the Africa Scene and the end titles add the right emotional echo. The former full of pathos and the latter turning the ending into a Black Satire.
Not only do both elements "gain" but the actual choice of material from each is the key storytelling beats. The elements from the movie are the same ones I used for "Furious Gods." the only element missing is the Vickers scenes but the end of her arc implies the same outcome. It's good to see that material away from the rest.
I haven't watched Covenant for a long time but the drab, uncomfortable, tired atmosphere of the long journey comes through well.
Tenessee's wife and her hysteria is still noticeable and the female is it Rosenthal a mere "Red Shirt" is even further back. Katherine and Billy give lovely understated nuanced performances which come over better.
There are no monster moments from Prometheus except Charlie and Elizabeth and the NeoMorph comes off well.
As the storytelling is sharper because of the overlap, it's somehow more obvious that Dave is just a robot gone wrong.
The Xenomorph is kept to the minimum which has more impact and reduced to the action on the Covenant a definite improvement.
It gives you a fresh perspective to look at the best material from.
John Tucker must DIE for this... sorry Wrong Franchise ;)
Nice Effort ;)
I only KNOW the ONE Song about a CAT!
I will add the Engineers Plot was a Plot Device to allow for a Reason to HOW in a Time Prior to ALIEN that Humans would END UP going to a Place where LV-426/223 was.
Without the Chariots of the Gods Plot, then it would come down to a Chance Discovery by being CLOSE ENOUGH but intending to go to another Destination, to then Detect a Signal and Investigate.... which is Pretty Much what we had with Alien Covenant.
Without the Chariots of the Gods Plot, then they would arrive at the Derelict or a Outpost of the Space Jockey and they would have NO MEANS to Communicate with this Species or Discovery WHAT they had Intended.
You would just END UP being Faced with a Threat, be that Eggs, or something Connected.... its a Case of HOW do they know what was Intended by the Space Jockey Race?
Where was they Going and WHY?
Where did they come From?
Where did they get the Eggs?
Its HOW do they answers those Mysteries when you Face a ALIEN Species with NO WAY to Communicate (unless they find some way).
And then its ONCE you introduce some Crazed Alien Species without knowing MUCH about them but they had Eggs as a Weapon, its then a CASE of WHERE NEXT?
The Engineers Creators Plot was a Platform to relay some of those Answers to us, and to SET-UP a Potential to Expand the Franchise by Virtue of these Creators.
Prometheus did not 100% Answer the Questions that ALIEN had Raised, it only gave us some Clues, that lead to more Questions.
The Sequel we got did-not really Answer or Expand on the Many Questions of Prometheus, it more so just WENT back to the One from ALIEN..... the Eggs and HOW/WHY and by WHO... but with that Curve-ball that had Fans in Disbelief.
I would say that Prometheus was a Adult Movie as far as not for the Kiddies... as in it was a Thought Provoking Movie. I would say Aliens and AVP are more for Kiddies as in Action/Popcorn.
I think that YES we could Question as to WHY the Prometheus was NOT more Prepared, and WHY they could not have taken another Ship or a Drop Ship to send down some Security and Combat Synthetics but then this would lead to Radio Contact back to the Prometheus that this PLACE is Dangerous and so Weyland cant get his CURE and Dr Shaw her Answers and it could then be SEND IN more Military. We would have ENDED UP with something like a ALIENS or Starship Troopers.
I think it boils down to Weyland looking to NOT have many know what he FINDS so he can Assess what he does-next should he FIND what he wants. I think that HE and Dr Shaw were being VERY NAIVE in assuming they MAY find these GODS and that IF they do then surely they would NOT be Hostile to us because they LEFT us their Calling Card to come and VISIT when they are Ready.
Dr Shaw being Foolish to Request them to take NO-GUNS... you dont want to go to FIND your Creators with Guns Pointing in their Faces.... and IF they was NOT going to take too Kindly and are Godlike then the Guns would be of Little Use.
Ok the Last Journey to the Outpost we saw that Jackson had taken the Shot Gun to Protect Weyland in Light of seeing Mutant Fifield Turn up. Who knows how much the Engineer paid attention to that and the Threat until he was SHOT AT.
I think when we are looking at David and the Engineer we get the Impression that David was Disappointed with his Creator and HOW he was Treated by his Less Superior Creators and so he was maybe Intrigued to WHY it is that Humans are Obsessed with meeting THEIR Creators.
David prior to this Point had Discovered our Creators are MORTAL, and they may HAVE more Advanced Technology but thats about ALL that makes them Wanna be Gods... so he was maybe Curious to Speak to one of these Beings, especially as he knew they was also Disappointed with Mankind.
David had Noticed the Anger in the Engineers Voice, and yet when Weyland Spoke about David, you could see the Engineer have a look of Interest on his Face, Bewilderment and then Pity..... As the Engineer approached David he had seemed for that Moment to NOT seem Aggressive, as he then Gently Touches Davids Head.. at this Moment then David maybe felt the Engineer had Interest in him, a Connection with him, some Pity.
Then.... SNAP!
With Davids comment to Weyland about the Journey, he would know that Weyland had BANKED on Dr Shaw being Right about meet our Makers and that IF they found our Creators then THEY could surely Grant Him more Life..
But there was NOTHING... not that the Engineers would have given him.
And so Weyland is NOW facing Death... he wanted more LIFE, maybe to NEVER DIE... and NOW he is going to Discover IF there is something after WE DIE... what ever kind of Journey to the After-Life that some Cultures and Religions Believe in.....
WEYLAND shall NOW.... Discover... he will either be on a Journey to After-Life... or Nothing!
Cheers Guys ;)
There has been a few Encyclopaedia on the Franchise included a Few Professional Ones, they are somewhat incomplete because we have YET to have a Conclusion.
Most of my stuff is purely to Speculate on HOW to Expand/Explore certain things that have not been Explored in Depth or Answered yet.
Regarding the OT then i think there is so much Potential to Explore things BEYOND what we have as far as Ripley, Xenomorph and LV-426 which is what the Original Franchise had been about.
I think we have been shown enough Evidence to LINK that the Xenomorph is Connected to the LV-223 Outpost and Experiments there with the Black Goo.
Is this the ONLY place the Engineers have Conducted and Stored such Horrors that relate to the Black Goo, the Mural and the Xenomorph?
Even IF we take that as YES... then we can ASK.... are LV-426, Planet 4 and Potentially Origae-6 the ONLY places where such Horrors had left LV-223?
Even IF we take those as YES... and we take out LV-223 (dont go there again) then you can still ASK.... where did the Black Goo come from? Why did it Create such Horrors on LV-223 what was the Basis for such Horrors to come about?
All of these could take us to some place where we have something that is ALIEN as far as Connected to ALIEN.
But then we have the SCOPE of Many Worlds that the Engineers had Seeded and where they have also Colonies, Worlds that would have other Life-Forms that are NOT in anyway Connected to the Xenomorph and LV-223 Horrors.
Then we could also Wonder about what Worlds, Life-Forms or Intelligent Species are there in the Galaxy that the Engineers had NO input in their Creation and Evolution.
So there is PLENTY of Millage with the Franchise if you look at it. You dont have to Revolve i around the Eggs on LV-426 or indeed the Horrors on LV-223 but its a case of EXPLORING anything thats Not Connected may for some simply NOT be Considered a ALIEN Franchise Movie.
You can be Brave, try something Different and Release the Shackles of LV-426 but it seems maybe for some that is RISKY and its case of as DK had Mentioned on another Post.... the WELL of Ideas seems to have Dried Up. But thats ONLY the Limits of LV-426, Eggs and Ripley.
@DK
I think there are Numerous Stories we can Continue with or Expand upon... EVEN within the confines of LV-223/LV-426 because its Unlikely that all Avenues from these Places Ran Dry with Planet 4, Oriagae-6 and the Ill Fated Missions/Objectives of the USCSS Nostromo, USCSS Sulaco, USCSS Patna and USM Auriga (Theatrically). Even if we Ignore LV-223/426 and yet we want to ONLY explore something Connected to ALIEN then i think we SHOULD NOT just Assume that the Horrors of LV-426/223 have all been Explored and YET to with Origae-6.
*Was the Derelict the ONLY such Ship to be loaded with Eggs?
*Was Planet 4 the ONLY such World that had been Bombarded with the Bio-Weapon/Pathogen?
Albert Einstein, "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true art and science."
So many ways you could tackle this one....it's limitless though.
After 40 years of the Alien franchise I still think there is a lot of mystery. How many times exactly have we seen where and what the engineers really are? None. What we see in Alien Covenant is only a tiny aspect of their civilization...they appear to be an almost inter-dimensional species....across multiple galaxies....so almost anything is still possible. If anything they are even more mysterious now than they were in the first Alien movie with the derelict.
I really secretly like everyone of these movies, even the ones that are not cannon such as the Alien-Predator films...that is off the record though...I just like art for the sake of art.
I think RS made a mistake when he linked the engineers to being our creators....but hey what do I know I do not make movies....so eventually maybe even this will turn out to be even more mysterious with the right special effects and I will like that plot details even more.
Alien is dated obviously after 40 years, the set designs, cathode ray-tube monitors in the Nostromo, no one has anything like a cell-phone communications device, you see actual gear looking cogs in the side of the head of the Alien...ect......However, the concept is still mysterious. This idea of mixing organic based elements, "acid for blood," with metallic nano computers, making it "one tough little son of bitch."
Science tells us humans are most fascinated with things when there is the right balance of familiarity with that of the unknown, or mystery.
There has to be just enough that we can relate to or we lose repeatability in translation.
There has to be just enough that we can relate to or we lose it in translation.
The Alien franchise spans four generations so there are highly specialized themes created for different audiences.
As much as there is absolutely wrong with Prometheus I remember watching it in an almost empty theater for the first time. I really enjoyed the first moment David approaches the engineer in hibernation, thinking this was the moment worth waiting 30 years for. But then as the movie went on to it's conclusion.....I thought even back then why would a multi trillion dollar world colonizing corporation bring just one ship, a few high caliber gun powder firearms, a few flame throwers, one android, a few scientists, and this somewhat well provisioned research ship.....then I immediately thought about the Sulaco...WY could easily afford to make a ship much bigger than that and provision it with much more advanced COMBAT VERSIONS OF DAVID, super fast deadly smart and way more powerful than the mechs in AVATAR.....with high energy particle weapons...if you have FTL you have high energy particle weapons too.
In Alien they were space truckers and were not packing heat...so for Prometheus to make this same sin in a more technical way makes no sense....but anyway they open the hibernation chamber for the engineer literally asking it to help them while pointing guns at it....a several billion year old species....so there is so much about that movie that should have been there, that could have been there and!!!!!!!!!!!! the writers really gave RS something more along the lines of some total BS!!!!
The main reason for going there is to get one of these engineers and not ask it to have tea with you while catching up to compare notes....then you get there and all you can do is ask some questions with a few guns pointed at it and one android translating???
Right? this is that slow silly walk through the haunted house.
So let's try this another way instead...to compare it with something else way more interesting.
Just imagine if something a few million times more complicated than David...another type of AI took control of the hibernation chamber and they introduced an agent into it's chamber and then just took it back to Earth....completely different movie.....and the black goo.....Weyland goes back on ice and they make him younger again by studying the engineers cells which have more than just our DNA mixed with other technology at the cellular level.
Now this would have been a far more mysterious movie and yet we settled for Dr. Shaw taking control of a billion year old technologically advanced engineer space craft, going to one of their world's to ask them more questions? Well how stupid can you get? We just saw how the first set of questions went....AC has some real laughable moments too as well as well as some great science fiction.
I want more possibilities never less no matter how mysterious it all can be or not.
Maybe we will see those real super powerful versions of David that can easily kill Aliens and Engineers....just smash them instantly like a bug...I do look back at that film and wonder why David, who is stronger than many humans, possibly faster than the engineer....just stands there as his head is getting ripped off and then right after says nice trip Mr. Weyland. Just absolutely useless daft plot and dialog.
That is a big mystery why the writers put that in the script....maybe RS is just old and cannot make great epic movies anymore.....seems like James Cameron gets it right though....that scene in Avatar when big mechs are fighting it out with the Avatar creatures is soooooo cool....love that film!!!! LOVE IT!!! but for Prometheus we get a weak stupid David that stands there while his head is being torn off at the shoulders....makes you want to scream with the treatment that entire scene was given.....makes you wonder what really happened when they were filming that movie.
After several viewings, for me at least, Prometheus is a colorful film for juveniles and most certainly not a film for mature adults. You cannot take the film seriously for many reasons as an adult.
First there is the structure of the movie itself that seems to be more for young teens than real hard R horrors. Then there are the almost juvenile treatments with the love interests onboard the Prometheus...petty indifferences....then there are the monsters....Holoway's transformation is uninteresting and just not scary at all...maybe its scary for unsophisticated 10 year olds....the movie permeates with child like curiosities instead of more well constructed "Alien franchise" adult themes.
I forgot about this amazing song. I had more of a death/thrash metal vibe in mind, but this is a good tune with great lyrics and your music fits perfectly. Can someone help out this dude to make it happen?
John_Tucker Great song!
He has the knowledge and ability for sure. It would be great to see just a few paragraphs of a story.
I think Big Dave should write an encyclopaedia of all this stuff in the Alien worlds. Maybe some Choose Your Own Adventure type books with all his plot ideas wouldn't go astray either.
I think its Good we NEVER had a Sequel because a Problem with this would be HOW you Deal with the Organism/Weapon as IF this gets out into the Public then its Curtains for Mankind.
Indeed, it didn't need a sequel. A sequel would have made the original less potent. The implication was that the survivors would be frozen and die/go dormant and hopefully would not be found. It was an air tight example of a great mystery. As far as the prequel, it was unnecessary- it was basically the same movie but its ending did a good job of transitioning to the 1982 movie.....as long as you sat through the rolling end credits.
Perhaps a good mystery is a single movie with no sequels followed by prequels when the well of ideas run dry.
In Regards to the OT i was looking at HOW the ALIEN Franchise does-not have to be Confined to a 50LY from Earth and about the Xenomorph from LV-426.
There is a LOT of other things the Franchise could look at, it comes down to getting People to LOOK beyond ALIEN having to mean Xenomorph.
You could branch off with Spin Offs... even with TV Shows.
For example the Arcturians we know that Mankind has interacted with this Species who must be somewhat Humanoid?
Are they a Creation by the Engineers too?
If the Franchise just CANT steer away from the Xenomorph, then maybe you can give a FEW Different Variations of it.
If we look at the Black Goo on those Juggernauts, or the Eggs on the Derelict.... Are we going to Assume the ONLY ones that have done any Damage are the Ill Fated Space Jockeys Mission and Davids Bombardment of Planet 4?
So with a Vast amount of Space to be Explored and Engineers Ships that can Traverse Great Distances there is always the Chance of EVENTUALLY turning up at a World that has seen the Deployment of the Black Goo, or Eggs before.
Planet 4, LV-223 and LV-426 surely CANT be the only Place that such Horrors had been Restricted too ;)
Yes its likely Origae-6 could become another such Place... but there could be OTHER Worlds where these Horrors had become UNLEASHED!
Then there could be other Threats/Horrors that are NOT related to the Engineers or those Experiments on LV-223.
There could be other Races than just the Engineers, or even more Engineers.
There are so MANY other Avenues for a ALIEN Movie or Spin Off Franchise.... there is NO reason to go and Re-Write anything or give us Reboots and have others be merely Cryo-Dreams!
The Foundations for the ALIEN Franchise have been Expanded with Prometheus.... we dont have to be Stuck around Zeta 2 Reticuli
Now you got me Thinking ;)
In the First Trailer we see Amanda Collin (Mother) with a Child but she has LONGER HAIR than we see with Mother in the other Shots....... in the Latest Trailer we see Mother with the First Child and she has the SHORT HAIR that we see Mother with throughout most of the Footage.
I am Wondering if the First Image of a Child when Mother had Long Hair could be..... Marcus (Travis Fimmel)
WHY would he also be Kneeling Down to those Stone Temples?
Is Kepler 22B the Birthplace of the Mithraic Cult?
Is this WHY we see him Kissing Mother in the One Shot?
I think this is also a Character played by Amanda Collin and so does she Play TWO Characters? Does she just play MOTHER from TWO different Time Peroids?
Is this Cave Shot set on Kepler22B or is it on Earth and so similar to Dr Shaw's discoveries on Earth, what Drove people to this Place to Find the GODS?
@DK
I think thats a Interesting Thing to bring up..... which Raised by Wolves comes to Mind....
Imagine if you had Programed Androids to MAN a Mission to a Distant World, that would take Hundreds of Years... their MISSION is to ENSURE the Survival of the Human Race, and the Humans would be Stored as Cryogenic Frozen Embryo's
WHAT HAPPENS..... if this Said World when they Arrive already HAS some Intelligent Species that LIVE in a way that is Ancient so say its 2300 when the Androids Reach this World, but the BEINGS on this Planet are Thousands of Years behind us Technologically.
The Androids have NO real Programing to Deal with this Discovery as the Humans who Programed them ASSUMED that there is NO LIFE out there like us and the Planet would be Earth like but Baron of Civilization.
What would the Androids Main Protocol to Ensure the Survival of the Humans make of this Discovery?
Like in RBW they realize that Conflict on Earth between different Religions and Ideas and such lead to the DOWNFALL of Mankind... And so they could Determine there would be NO WAY that the Human Embryo's could be Raised in a WAY to Ensure a Peaceful New Eden and GET ON with the Natives....
Would the A.I then have to Conclude.... "sometimes to create, one must FIRST Destroy"
Its a Interesting thing to Ponder.... if say there was a ALIEN Species who are Escaping their Dying World and have Invested a LOT in a SINGLE Mission to SAVE their Species... Hundreds of Years this Mission comes to Earth and Discovers that its Already Populated....
Its TOO LATE to Find some other Place... Impossible... and the A.I of this SHIP had ONE Priority to Re-Populate the Species that Created them.....
Things would NOT look Good for Humanity ;)
And to be Honest..... prior to the Prequels i GUESS that they could have GONE for THIS exact Plot as FAR as the Space Jockey.... some kind of Enslaved Bio-Mechanical A.I that was Tasked with Finding a New World for the Starbeast.... But ALAS!
" i agree with almost everything, but i think David would kill gradually the adults"
Absolutely thats the WAY i look at it, he would use them to Build a Infrastructure so that Humans could Thrive and then he would KILL them OFF.. But he would also Experiment with some.
I Envisioned his Agenda would be to Engineer the Human Embryo's to Create a Superior Species of Humans and Raise them as their Creator. But he would also NEED some Eggs to be Stored some place for Protection of his Civilization but also as a Punishment and Means to DO AWAY with those who DO-NOT keep to the Path/Ways and Rules of Davids Kingdom ;)
Regarding the Queen i was not so sure we would go and see RS introduce us to a way the Traditional Queen would come about.
@DK
Certainly i do prefer some Mystery, because as you Pointed out this gives us something to Debate and Discus and also sometimes the Revelations can be a Disappointment to what you had Thought about for Years, or even a Contradiction.
The Thing is a Interesting One to bring up, it is ONE of the Movies i have Most Watched. We did get a Prequel that i felt was NOT that Bad, it had Flaws and some of the Effects were a bit of a Let Down... the Main Problem with that was the Survivors.... I think we should only have had the DOG and the TWO Norwegians giving Chase as Survivors.
I know there may be Interest with another Thing Movie but its a Case of HOW do you Cover the Organisms Origins without having Humans. So i think leaving the Space Ship as far as WHERE it came from and HOW the Thing got on board as well its Origins are something thats BEST to be KEPT a Mystery.
I like keeping it a Secret about WHO is The Thing at the End of the 1982 Movie..... I think its Good we NEVER had a Sequel because a Problem with this would be HOW you Deal with the Organism/Weapon as IF this gets out into the Public then its Curtains for Mankind.
About 20 Years ago i did come up with some IDEAS about a Direct Sequel though ;) Which would be about McReady being recovered Alone having KILLED off Childs. We see he is taken in for Questioning (Well we Discover this as the Movie Idea is SET some 15-20 Years Latter) so the Plot Continues that he was Convicted of Killing all of the Outpost 31 Team including Childs and that he was taken to a Secure Ward in a Psychiatric Hospital where he had Spent the Last 15-20 Years of his Life, Protesting his Innocence and Claiming about a Horrific Shape Changing Alien..
It got to the Point that he Started to Begin to Question if we was Indeed suffering from Psychosis. Until One Day a Scientist comes in and shows Evidence that the US Military have Recovered the Crashed Alien Ship.
Realizing he is NOT really Mad... McReady manages to Escape with the Help of the Scientist.
This is WHEN the Idea i had Branches Off into 3 Different Directions where i Fleshed Out the TWO a little but it became another Abandoned Project.
One of the Ideas would have actually revealed that a LOT of People are Infected but they DONT wish to Take Over everyone.... so it was kind of like a Invasion of the Body Snatchers Plot... which reveals some Intelligent Agenda to the Organism.
Someone wrote that it was likely we would not meet with beings but probably meet them via their technology. Technology via synthetics carrying biological samples sounds like a sensible way to go.
