Comments (Page 170)

>>>The Problem that RS faced would be these Scenarios

What makes you oppose Alien 5 and Prometheus 2? In other words - why do you think that Prometheus 2 not about xenomorphs?

>>>But as FAR as avenues to a ALIEN V then i think there are avenues you could explore that do-not have to Directly Continue a Ripley Saga.

1) It's a bad idea - to make a film to close gaps / explain some things. The film should live independently, and not serve as a guide.

2) We can assume that Derelict was destroyed after a nuclear explosion. In any case, the ship already had a hole in the hull, so everything inside was well fried.

3) Dead.

4) Maybe only a black box. Not xenomorphs or something fleshy.

5) Planet 4. And we already explored this planet. There is no one reason to return to this lifeless world (also applies to LV-223 - we have already seen everything about this planet).

You talk about new ideas and ways, but at the same time you are talking about returning to already explored planets. No. If you insist on new ideas, you must forget about the planets already seen. Otherwise, this is the same as talking about the return of Ripley and the gang. Just the other side of the same coin ;)

But as FAR as avenues to a ALIEN V then i think there are avenues you could explore that do-not have to Directly Continue a Ripley Saga.

1) What became of the Derelict after 2122 and prior to 2179 as it appeared to suffer some Damage on the Arm Section... could there had been another Mission?

2) After the Destruction of Hadleys Hope did this RENDER the Derelict and its Cargo as Unfeasible/Useless?  Or could something had been Salvaged or Attempted and something after this Happens to leave the only OPTION of Ripleys DNA a few Hundred Years latter?

3) What happened to the Failed Ripley 7 Cloned Queen? Could it have been sent somewhere?

4) Is there anything to Salvage from the USM Auriga after its decent to Earth/Destruction.

5) Prior to 2122 and after.... is the Derelict on LV-426 the ONLY source of Xenomorph Eggs?

So there are some Avenues that would not have to connect to a Ripley or Conflict/Touch upon the Prequels.  Prior to Alien Covenant however...  Option 5 would have been a ideal way Forwards... its this kind of Scenario that many of the Novels/Comics would tackle.

In light of Alien Covenant there is the Potential for other Eggs as we have some on Planet 4, we can assume some more would be on Origae-6 and maybe others on LV-223 before we got to the Derelict Event and then we have to ask was the Derelict the only Ship loaded with such Cargo.

But the above would all have likely been Answered when/if the Prequels were Completed.   So a ALIEN 5 would be better of looking at OPTIONS 1-5

But indeed we have to look at the Reality that they may not be willing to INVEST in  ALIEN Movie on the Big Screen and so the Small Screen could be used to Introduce the Franchise to a NEW Generation that can Sew the Seeds for Future Movies.

But then so could a REBOOT!

And i would NOT be surprised if we got either..

1) A Complete Reboot in the Year 2029

2) A Alternative (AKA Blomkamp Alien 5) sequel to Aliens in 2026

"which was only speculated to cancel out Alien 3 was cockblocked by Ridley Scott"

To a degree this is Correct, but what RS was trying to do is Protect his Prequels so that they could get Finished, you could argue that Blomkamp attempted to Derail the Prequels by releasing Snippets of his Fan Service Alien 5.

It seemed RS wanted to get his Sequels to Prometheus Finished and then he would have worked in part with a ALIEN  5 but after how Disappointing that Alien Covenant was, and the Disney Takeover has all but in Effect but the Franchise on ICE!

The Problem that RS faced would be these Scenarios

1) Release a ALIEN 5 and Prometheus 2 within 12-18 Months of Each-other; The Problem with this would be if more Anticipation and Excitement came from ALIEN 5 it may effect those who would want to see a Prometheus 2, especially if Fans felt a Prometheus 2 was NOT going to be ALIENY enough.  IF we saw ALIEN 5 do Very Well then FOX/Disney would likely Continue with a ALIEN 6 and it could effect the Prequels.. especially if Prometheus 2 did-not do well.  HOWEVER... if ALIEN 5 also bombed then they would see that there is NO interest or point in ALIEN Movies as its Risky and this may effect any Plans for a Prometheus 3... unless Prometheus 2 was a HIT.

2) Is similar to above but assuming that ALIEN 5 is made First and if it does VERY WELL... maybe it could effect the Chance of the Prequels being Continued or FORCE them to be more ALIENY.   If ALIEN 5 came out like 3+ Years prior to a Prometheus 2 but ALIEN 5 sucked then it could potentially make FOX/Disney reconsider doing a Prometheus Sequel.

3) If we have a Prometheus 2 come out but News that Alien 5 would be out 2-3 years after, then maybe Fans would be more willing to want to WAIT for that Movie instead.

So you can understand why it is that RS would want to have Alien 5 put on Hold..... and to be Fair looking at the IDEA it was just mainly a Fanservice... and worse is that ONCE you make a Movie that Ret-cons what happened in Alien 3 and if this becomes a HIT then its a case of where does Disney then STOP?  They could just Reboot everything.

I think Blomkamps idea has some LEGS... i just dont see why it had to BRING THE GANG BACK.... Originally his idea did-not feature Ripley and Co.... and so regarding that Versions i would be interested in seeing what it could have Evolved to.

"I don't want to look rude, but  - what variants? What kind of aesthetic?"

Certainly we can have Variations but i am not suggesting we have something that is TOTALLY different,  The Neomorph and Deacon are designs that you can see a Connection, it may NOT be so clear to some.  There have been a lot of designs and concepts for ALIEN Movies which include the Prequels and some are more CLOSER to the Traditional Aesthetic (by that i mean what we see in ALIEN, ALIENS and AVP Movies).  Some are different and i think its a case of NOT being too close but also to NOT give something that any ALIEN Fans would be Unfamiliar with as far as a Connection.

Prior to the Prequels the MAIN design that people are Familiar with is the ALIENS design.  What we saw with ALIEN 3 is that a Different Host can Slightly Alter the Aesthetic of the Xenomorph.

With Alien Resurrection what we saw was some Hybrids due to there being some Human DNA in the Process but the Xenomorphs still had a HIGH % of the Traditional Look.

The Newborn offered something Different, and i know some Fans was displeased with the Outcome, i saw the Potential but it did look at bit too Comical.

If we are to IGNORE the Prequels then what we pretty much have is Eggs and Face Huggers and where the Differences mainly would be Host Dependent but if the Hosts are the same then the Differences are NOT that varied.

So the above could be what is expected if a T-Rex was infected.

With Alien Resurrection it opened the Door to looking at what a Hybrid of DNA could create, we can see some variation in the Failed Clones.   But essentially the Xenomorph does create a Hybrid anyway, in that the Face Hugger would take on some Traits of the Host in the Final Product thats Gestated.

For some Fans this is as FAR as it should be taken.

But as far as a so called Perfect Organism then i think its interesting to see some Self-Evolution to change things about and give us Variations, such as to adapt to different Environments.

What the Prequels seemed to indicate is that the Xenomorph is a Engineered Creation and so when your trying to Design/Engineer such a thing then its likely you would have had Variations prior, and also would be looking to see how you can Create more Variations.

Alien Engineers/Genesis seemed to touch upon this going as far as to suggest the Engineers had created 8 different Variants of the Xenomorph.  I think this is something Interesting that it would be NICE to see explored.

Rather than just discovering the Same Old Eggs over and over with as much difference in Variation as we have seen in Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 and AVP Movies.

I found the Pred-Alien to be interesting and also how it attempted to explore a different kind of Procreation.

I understand some Purest much prefer to sticking to the Formula of Queen => Eggs = Face Hugger = Alien Quadrilogy Xenomorphs.

And under certain Circumstances you can get a Queen Embryo that is Gestating inside a Host.

I think when we are looking at any Humans wishing to obtain and USE the Xenomorph its interesting to wonder for WHAT reason..  Because to USE just a case of Dropping Eggs off to a Place you want to Infect or you Obtain Xenomorphs (AR) and then you Contain them and Ship them out to Worlds you wish to Destroy is something that can be Limiting if this Agenda is Done over and over to Constant Failure.

I think its interesting to explore experiments on the Organism and what Horrors this would Reveal/Create.

But most of the Comics, Games and Novels just revolve around Discovering or Attempting to obtain a Queen or Eggs.

I am not saying that you have to DITCH that idea/formula but that it would be nice for a Change once in a while... But you get some ALIENS purest who view the Xenomorph in a Certain way.

Few Alien Fans i personally know are more in the ALIENS Fanbase and they Personally see the Xenomorph as a Ancient Parasitic Organism they are not Creations or Bio-Weapons or Engineered...  And that they Originated from some World that would have had Thousands, Millions of Eggs and the SPACE JOCKEY is a Race that had came across these Eggs on their Homeworld and they attempted to Carry them off on that Ship which DID-NOT work out well for them.

Just as the W-Y Company Discovers trying to do the same in the Franchise.

These people i know were not a Fan of the Deacon and Neomorph they felt they was just NOT ALIEN.  They did however like the Pred-Alien and LOVE the KING.

So some Fans are Protective over how much to Change the Xenomorph where as i think after seeing a Repetition of same Aesthetic then having something a bit Different is interesting.

I think especially if we ask HOW MUCH could the Xenomorph Evolve/Change itself, and more so in Context to Experiments on it, be this by Humans, Predators or Engineers.

I think the Black Goo and LV-223 Experiments open the door to changing the Xenomorph a little too.

But some people prefer that things should stay how they are as that is what the ALIEN is after all, and its a case of each to their own ;)

Everybody is responding in the same way wireone login. This is awesome.

Im quite familiar with Scott Sigler's works. He's novels are.... dynamic to say the least, with more than a little melodrama from eccentric characters and wild plots. 

I can't say im surprised he's finally done an Alien novel. 'Infected' is probably his closest to an Alien novel, tackling endo-parasitic sentient aliens with plans of galactic domination. Despite its eccentric-ness it was a page-turner, full of surprise, dark twists, and body horror. 

This novel could be a wild ride on an express elevator to hell! 

Gavin Scott block Alien 5 for the Prometheus sequel, namely covenant not for the third movie. Guess why did they introduce the Xenomorph...

How can you call Underwater a success? It barely made 40 million world wide, 6 times less than covenant, on a budget of 65 million. Annihilation performed better and was considered a flop. The Harley Quinn movie made more than double it's production cost back and every anti-SJW claims are ecstatic on how big a flop it is.

F. the Xenomorph, come up with new ideas / situations already.

Heres another look at assessing the future of our beloved franchise...

The last two movies, the prequels, have divided the fan base and although Prometheus did well at the Box Office, Covenant did not. Diminishing returns have sealed the prequel trilogy's fate.

Alien: Ressurection was released 23 years ago, that's a generation ago, and the movie is considered the worst of the Quadrilogy. The last arguable good/successful Alien movie was Aliens, and that was released 34 years ago. A direct sequel to either Aliens or Alien: Resurrection makes little sense considering the investment that would be required.

Blomkamp's movie, which was only speculated to cancel out Alien 3 was cockblocked by Ridley Scott and no doubt David Giler in favor of following up Covenant with a third prequel. This experience and whatever led to Blomkamp exiting RoboCop Returns has soured his taste for working with high profile studios on existing, established franchises, as highlighted by the development of new ideas released through his own venture, OATS Studios.

Recent trends have seen once-popular franchises being rebooted. Sure, with the right production team, cast, and director a reboot/remake that surpasses the original in every way from a technical perspective is possible, but such a movie would require too high an investment when considering that the fanbase would prefer the 1979 original no matter how much more proficient a remake could be.

Popular speculation is that Alien could be coming to the small screen. With recent successful small screen franchises, with many Hollywood stars turning to the small screen, and with small screen properties being a safer investment when considering their smaller production budgets, it would seem that a small screen Alien serial would be the next logical step for the franchise.

However, movie trends change and change often. The recent success of Underwater shows that there is still an appetite from movie audiences for similar properties and the epitome of those type of movies are the Alien movies. Should the title creature be executed on film with the necessary respect and reverence that is sorely needed within an interesting narrative populated with relatable and well-realized characters there is no reason that the Alien cannot retain its crown as the pinnacle of science fiction horror creature feature movies. Though, if this was the case the movie would have a much less inflated budget and would likely follow a fresh narrative within the universe.

It is no secret that I consider the Aliens Colonial Marines Technical Manual as non-canon, and the postulations in the OP of this thread are a clear indicator as to why I feel this way...

The Technical Manual was originally published in 1995, three years after the theatrical release of Alien 3 and nine years after the theatrical release of Aliens. The Technical Manual was also re-released in a revised edition in 2012 to coincide with the release of SEGA and Gearbox Softwares Alien: Colonial Marines. ACM was originally labeled as a canonical sequel to Aliens, but following the outcry toward how the game was misrepresented to consumers its canonical status was swiftly revoked.

The Technical Manual was written to address inconsistencies in the individual and cohesive narratives of Alien, Aliens, and Alien 3. However, the "evidence" within the Technical Manual is fan theory and fan speculation and, as shown in the OP deviates into narrative threads not present in the movies.

I do understand that some cling to it with some reverence, but I believe than many that do so would not if there was an alternative "dossier" that did not deviate beyond the narrative and evidence of the prime canon; the movies.

>>>Yeah the MONSTERS should only be a PART of the Story, but i dont think by Exploring different Variants would make a ALIEN Franchise any less ALIEN ;)

>>>And all with the ALIENS kind of Aesthetic.

I don't want to look rude, but  - what variants? What kind of aesthetic?

Giant spiders?

Or some creature what we can see in any another horror film?

Where is the Alien here?

The franchise called Alien. Alien is a title person. Not an Alien, but the Alien. If anyone in the world said "Alien", you will think about this:

Alien is not another monster, which you can leave on the sidelines. Even Prometheus led to the Alien, not to the ~1000 "interesting" worlds with humanoids.

The one question what you should ask. Really one question - if Ridley can't play with the Alien, maybe he just doesn't know - how?

Well i think thats the Pickle we are in ;)

Unfortunately the FATE of the Covenant is in David's Hands if we are to Carry on with the Covenant Mission then Unfortunately its going to be HARD to remove David.

What we have to remember is that the Covenant Ship is at the WHIM of David.... its HOW do any of the Colonist manage to get RID of David and what becomes of those TWO Face Huggers.

Daniels being aware of WHO it is that Walter really is, does prove a Problem and as such Davids options are to either.

1) KILL HER... then how does he explain that to Tennessee.

2) EXPERIMENT on her or keep her Captive, and have her Escape and Awaken the others.  Then it leaves David to unleash the Face Huggers.

IF we begin a Movie where David is done for... its HOW and then the BIGGEST PROBLEM.. what kind of Jeopardy is in Store for the Colonist if David is GONE? 

Only the FACE HUGGERS and so how do you introduce them?

For those who are not interested in Daniels or David, then the ONLY option that remains is a AFTERMATH kind of Movie.

The Covenant Ship is stranded on Origae-6 (or some other place) and then its HOW MANY Colonist had Survived, and what Horrors are there on what ever World they are on, that surely have to have something to do with what David had brought on board the Covenant.

The prequels didn't do well enough to excite FOX or Disney to carry on with more. Given that it's been more than 20 years since the Quadrilogy, a movie that directly connects to it might not be such a great idea. A whole generation is here who may not have even heard of the franchise (I know plenty of 20 somethings who haven't even heard of the movies) and scifi can be a risky venture in theaters though it appears to be improving.

A continuation would only appeal to the fan base and casual sci fi fans- hardly enough to justify the budget demands of a tripple A movie. 

I think the series should continue via other media outlets such as streaming at this point.

Certainly Good Points...

Monsters are ONLY a part of the Subject, it has to have them but without a Good Story and Characters then you could END UP with a Rotten Egg ;)

I think the Prequels are a Poisoned Chalice, i think any continuation of Story that would touch upon what they had been showing could be FOLLY!

I dont think we have to touch upon Ripleys either, which includes Amanda, but i guess you could reference them.

There was a PERIOD between ALIEN and ALIENS where we have to ASK did anyone go back to LV-426 between 2122 and 2179?

Amanda Ripleys story fits between this TIME but we could wonder what Happened after the Conclusion of her Stories?

Then we also have the PERIOD between 2179 and 2379 had there been attempts to Obtain a Xenomorph between Alien 3 and Alien Resurrection, what lead it to leave it for SO LONG with only Ripley's DNA as the Source to Resurrect the Xenomorph?

We also have what happens after Alien Resurrection as a Alternative path to give us a ALIEN V.

I think what some of the Alien 5 concept/ideas showed is it had taken Alien Resurrection and seemingly took it the STEP further.  

By that i mean as FAR as having spent more time with Specimens and Experimenting on them.. in AR they had not LONG managed to Obtain the Xenomorph before HELL broke loose.  And so it would be interesting to see what the Plans was, and what would have happened if they Successfully Contained the Xenomorph and to what END would they have experimented on them.

I think something like this has to be that NEXT LEVEL that they take us, as just Discovering more Eggs and seeing people get Face Hugged, Chest Busted and killed off by Xenomorphs and then seeing a Queen go on the Rampage has been done to almost DEATH ;)

I dont think you got my point ;)

I will admit maybe its a little unfair to JUDGE when i hardly read the Novels, my point is NOT suggesting it should be about Androids and Engineers.  But that it seems a Majority of the Time all we seem to do is cover the Traditional Formula of Queen and Eggs.

I think the Prequels opened up other Avenues to Explore as far as Variants of the Xenomorph or similar.  But then so did Alien Resurrection and some of the Project Work on what i think had to be Blomkamps Alien 5 also showed a LITTLE variation. 

I understand the LARGER Market of the Franchise is to cater for Queens and Eggs and ALIENS morphs, and its BIG Money.

But i think RS made some Good Points when he said there was only so much Snarling and Face Pulling that you could do.  He made a Good Point regarding the Beast in that you can go back to it, but you have to Evolve it and Explore Alternatives ways of Procreation.

Yeah the MONSTERS should only be a PART of the Story, but i dont think by Exploring different Variants would make a ALIEN Franchise any less ALIEN ;)

This applies to the Franchise in General and NOT to just this Novel, it seems this Novel could be approaching a WHAT IF kind of Scenario about Xenomorphs being Discovered by a Civilization who are NOT as Advanced as that we see in the ALIEN Franchise.

So i think this BOOK does give a different perspective as certainly it would be more Horrific to be Facing such a THREAT if we had the Technology from Hundreds of Years ago or more.  

So my comments are not mainly about this Novel in Particular but just that we see Game after Game, Comic after Comic and Novel after Novel that rarely touches on anything different than Finding Eggs, getting KILLED by Xenomorphs and then meeting a Queen.

And all with the ALIENS kind of Aesthetic.

I think we can try something a bit different and by that i dont think a case of having Xenomorph Queens attached/linked up to Weapons Platforms would be the only way to try something Different... but some Fans would love that ;)

About fixing Daniels and Tennessee, I agree but that could also clash with how they were in AC. I do not disagree with it but that is why they got to get the characters right from the beginning. They changed David (for the worse) but maybe that could work for D and T. Get a better writer next time and stop having Ridley interfere with the story telling. Yeah there is a risk that only David will be the survivor for the next movie, something that I do not like but maybe that is to be expected so they could try something else so we think that we will know what will happen but we get something else and hopefully better.

I know that I write about the characters a lot but yes the story was a problem too since it was about a mad robot. I do not oppose the idea of humans trying to find a better life somewhere else, that is actually quite interesting how it is with global warming and that but it took a turn that was not good – interesting idea but poor execution of it.

The eggs and the derelict is interesting, it is just that I am afraid that they will still go "hey let's make A B C an D about David." In the end only XYZ is about something else because a lot of it is focused on a robot that is not even likable and even if he was better it is still too much about him.

What happens to the embryos and how the humans will grow up there could be interesting but they are still at the mercy of a megalomaniac and that is why it most likely will not work. I am not too exited about it unless they do something really great and get an interesting story but then something really unexpected must happen and I am not sure if that will be the case.

Maybe we can hope that WY will know about David so they will get there and sort of ambush him and blow him up. Xenos versus WY soldiers anyone? Perhaps this would be too much like Aliens so they could do something different. I am just trying to find out a way to get David killed, LOL!

"We just then NEED a Engineer Ship which is likely where the ENGINEERS have to come back into the FOLD or a TRIP to LV-223."

That could be interesting, I would like to see the LV-223 ones again. The question is just how to reduce the role and screen-time of David. I am against any kind of movie that has David at the center, he could be important but have limited screen-time though.

"This Path makes him Part of the Eventual Creation of the Xenomorph, and makes the Xenomorph as something that DOES-NOT exist prior to Alien Covenant."

No thanks

"The Fans then would likely want to see XENOMORPHS but have someway to indicate they are NOT created by David."

I would like that, it is a lot better than what they have indicated with Alien Covenant.

Those questions that you asked where the eggs came from and so on is something that I do not think that we need the answers to but we will get some answers to some parts of the link to how the Xeno came to be. By doing this we can still continue to discuss things and that is a part of the fun.

I think that Fox really made a crappy job with this one (the prequels) and now we are in shit.

Yeah, I am against anything that would remove Alien 3 from the official timeline. The way it is in the timeline I would suggest a Rogue One movie that could be set between things. It does not need to be Ripley or some version of her and those that we recognize as long as they know how to write characters I am for different things. Many of the alien movies that I have watched did not fail with the story, it was the characters that were not well written or executed. There has to be some way that they can write interesting characters without repeating the same old thing. No to resurrecting Blomkamp.

They can maybe have some references to old things but do not make it about what we have seen before. Ask yourself how many times we can see X (characters, suits, what ever) without it getting old.

Having it connected to something that came before is not a bad thing. Make it clear that it is a part of the alien universe could be a good thing otherwise we will get a new Prometheus situation. I disagree that it is about the Xeno, to me it is about the human journey and that is what the focus should be on, not the monsters even thought they are a part of it.

I encourage artistic freedom as long as it makes us see that it is in a universe that came before if that is the case.

Really? REALLY?! REALLY?!!

This goes beyond the reasonable! Aliens: Phalanx is one of the best books about Aliens. And you whine about the queen and the lack of anything new? Weak to say this personally to the author of the book?

Something like: "uh, oh, why your book about Aliens... well... actually about Aliens! How dare you! Why not about philosophical androids?! Why not about Engineers?! How dare you not to consult with Ridley Scott about the difference between species and civilizations!

P.S. Don't forget about Disney! They wants Cameron's xenomorphs! And dare not tell me that people love Aliens! No - every new book is Disney’s desire to see just Aliens! Not philosophy!"

LMAO. I said it earlier, I will say it again - this is the Alien universe. And if you are looking for something fresh - it is already here. Very organic, very logical and very tasty!

"They could even bring it back to Disneyland"

But on a Serious Note it does seem a Vast Majority of Novels, Comics and Games all cover the same BEAST.

As in they Discover Xenomorph Eggs or a Queen, regardless of what World we go to, or where these Eggs Appear/Discovered we always seem to come across either Eggs or a Queen and as far as the Normal Xenomorphs they seem to appear as the ALIENS Variety like 60-70% of the Time, the ALIEN variant about 15-20% leaving about 15-20% to cover Versions like the Alien 3, or Slight Variant on the ALIENS Xenomorphs. (inc Different Colors).

It seems that 90% of any Games/Comics and Novels are afraid to give us something more Varied as far as WHAT we Discover and WHAT they look like.

If this TREND Continues for another 5 Years i think we can SAFELY assume that Disney are ONLY interested in Camerons Xenomorphs and we would have a Repetitive Plot for Games, Comics and Novels and likely MOVIES too :(

whats the news on the sequal . . . .cant wait

Indeed!

The demon mother from the Black Smoke Mountain must be the alien queen.

I suppose Disney would like the idea of a medieval world and some youngsters fighting the xenomorph. They could even bring it back to Disneyland. 

Awesome ;)

I think to look more at the OT.

Then the Term Malak and Mala'kak do seem similar but maybe that is just Coincidence as far as the Coining of the Mala'kak as our Space Jockey Race.

It is still interesting to debate though, as while our Engineers are known now as Engineers i think its UNLIKELY that this is what the Engineers call themselves ;)

So as far as ISLAM goes then Malak are Messengers of God, in Biblical Accounts the Messengers of God are Prophets, but they are Influenced by the Angels (Act on behalf of Certain Angels). So these Chosen Men become Messengers of God but the Knowledge/Messages they send are given by Selected Angels.   So in Biblical Terms these Prophets are like Emissaries, which is what RS had said that Jesus was in context to the Engineers.

Now we dont went to get BOGGED DOWN by being to Literal here, but we can Speculate in Context to the Engineers that there could have been some Malak (Messengers) and these could have been the LV-223 Engineers who were tasked with Visiting Earth.

But they could also had been merely Emissaries/Prophets that are Chosen by the Engineers to be Messengers.  We could even Speculate that the Malak are the HALL OF HEADS guys as these are the Disciples of the Engineer Ritual Culture and Ways.

I think the BIG thing to look at is WHY would the Engineers Create Mankind?  Are we the Intended and Designed Creation and Planned Outcome of the Seeding of Worlds?

IF SO... then indeed some Engineers would Return to Guide us and Teach us Certain Things to a Certain Level.  There would likely be Limits to what we are Intended to know, and Rules/Rituals we are Intended to Follow.

Any passing on of Knowledge or Genetic Upgrades that are NOT by the Plans of the Hierarchy could be seen as constituting the Engineers/Messengers who pass this FORBIDDEN knowledge/upgrades as becoming FALLEN.

IF however, the Planned Outcome is NOT to have Created Mankind or at least how Evolved we are compared to Primates, then the Engineers who had Created/Evolved us to that Level could have been Committing a Violation of the USE of their Technology and Knowledge which would again make them FALLEN in the Eyes of the Hierarchy.

When it comes down to the NEPHILIM then in Context to the Engineers, this would Indicate that either the Creators/Hierarchy of the Engineers had BRED with Human Females to Produce the Engineers.  Or that the Engineers had BRED with Human Woman to Create Giants!

I had debated such things in a TOPIC i created a while back, Certainly looking at it in Context to prior to Alien Covenant, because at that Time we had No Confirmation of Female Engineers.  So at that time it was ok to Speculate that what if the Engineers had LOST their Females or Never had any... then they would surely be Interested in the Daughters of Man ;)   back then we could have Speculated if the Space Jockey was a Nephilim

The Nephilim were not just considered to be the Off-Spring of Angels and Humans, in some cases Nephilim is used to describe the Fallen.

I think Alien Covenant does change how to look at things to a Certain Degree, but again there is NO explanation to those beings ON SCREEN and so they could be revealed to be a Hybrid like the Nephilim are.

The Initial Concept for the Engineers was to be Giants of sorts, 12-15ft Tall and a Sequel had the Opportunity to explore a Taller Faction which would have made us look at the LV-223 Engineers as a Sub-Creation of the Engineers Hierarchy.  However with Alien Covenant and RS who confirmed those Planet 4 beings are Engineers then what we have is a 8ft Race of Humanoids.... which could be Considered somewhat Giant?

Ancient Depictions and Tales do have a Habit of Exaggerating Sizes and so Cultures from Thousands of Years ago would Describe and Draw a Group of 8ft Beings as being more TALLER than actually 8ft.

Also as being considered Powerful Beings, and Godlike then Ancient Cultures also Depict those of POWER those of Royal or even Godlike Decent would be depicted as much TALLER than a Normal Person.

so in Context to the Franchise, then the Ancient Depictions and Tales of Giants could STILL be a Reference to our 8ft Engineers.  Also if a 8ft Engineer would correspond to a 6ft Human then some Humans do grow to 7-8ft Tall and so we cant rule out the existence of 10ft Engineers ;)

Well maybe it could be Interesting.....

But seems all they have is the ONE TRICK PONY!

By that Classic Xenomorphs!

A Plot about another World inhabited by Humanoids that are Close or are Humans, that are only as Advanced as a Medieval Kingdom within the ALIEN Franchise could worked still if this World was another the Engineers had Seeded/Visited and attempted to DESTROY and the Humanoids Uncover something that is a Result of a Ancient Black Goo Bombard.... like the Neomorph Spores.  I think the Prequels opened up many avenues for Various Alien Forms that are related but are NOT just Carbon Copy ALIENS BUGS ;)

"Black Smoke Mountain--the lair of the mythical Demon Mother."

Wonder if this Demon/Dragon is Guarding some Treasure?

Will we see some kind of George Slaying the Dragon? or more a Joan of Arc..... AKA Paladin Ripley ;)

Certainly i think we can Speculate to what the Dream Visor could have been used for, with Dr Shaw what David had been viewing was more a Memory of hers, she could have been dreaming of a memory though. Who knows how many HOURS of Dreams that David had watched, and if the Visor could also ACCESS other types of Memories/Experiences then David would have these STORED and so we can Speculate if this Technology had Advanced could it have Recorded a Persons Memories?

So the Dream Visor was a Technology that i had as part of Operation Rook, but the Synapse Restablizer was also a Technology to be used with this as it could Re-Activate a Dead Weylands Brain in order to obtain some of his Last Memories.

Regarding Bishop i think the BIG thing to Consider is WHO owns his Technology and so IF the Company had some Shady Agenda then we could Speculate if they would assign another Android but have them pretend they are Different, and so while Synthetics could have Protocols to prevent them from Harming Humans, the Company could have other Protocols that can OVERWRITE those in Order to obtain whatever Objective they wish.

So you CANT 100% Trust a Synthetic as their Programed Orders which could be a Secret are what they would Follow as Priority.

I will say that looking at ALIENS however, IF he was Operating under some Secret Agenda to OBTAIN a Specimen there would have been a Number of things he would have done Differently to had Carried out this Operation.

We do have the Various Alien 3 Conspiracies... but i just cant see any TIME where Bishop would have been able to obtain a few Eggs and get them onto the Ship.

But in Alien 3 it seems Bishop had contact with the Computer Systems that showed via them, the Company Knew about the EGGS on the Sulaco and the USCSS Patna was conveniently not FAR away.

We do-not however know when Bishop would have been Aware of the Eggs and he was not in Good Working Order to be able to do much about them.  You have to wonder when he was aware though and could he NOT have Remote Accessed the Ship to Open the Cryo-Pods and Warn Ripley etc?

The thing to Consider is we cant rule out the Computer Systems having Protocols that would be Hidden from Bishop and that cant be Overrode by him.   So Bishop was likely a Innocent Party to the Events.

Any Prometheus vibes?

P.S. Sounds like the Beowulf legend.

The novel is set on planet Ataegina, below.

"Ataegina was an isolated world of medieval castles, varied cultures, and conquests, vibrant until the demons rose and spread relentless destruction. Swarms of lethal creatures with black husks, murderous claws, barbed tails and dreaded "tooth-tongues" raged through the lowlands, killing ninety percent of the planet's population.

Terrified survivors fled to hidden mountain keeps where they eke out a meager existence. When a trio of young warriors discovers a new weapon, they see a chance to end this curse. To save humanity, the trio must fight their way to the tunnels of Black Smoke Mountain--the lair of the mythical Demon Mother."

This is great news, thank you for posting daliens.

"Regarding "Allowing Bishop to kill a bunch of people"...that part was excellent in my opinion because Bishop had to choose sides and was lethal and very fast in showing it."

He has protocols to stop him harming humans.  He could try to help humans, but not harm other humans in the process.  Allowing him to do precisely that is a lazy cop-out.

Also the Rook from Cold Forge wasn't the same one from Broken.

And the bit where he meets the marines at the end was the best bit. :)

It's not a 'fantasy medieval kingdom'.

"The Rook was a Building that inside was a Rook Shaped Mainframe that Stored all of Weylands Work, and his A.I Soul which would get Unleashed to the Network (well indicated) at the End of my Prometheus 2. Which would be a Tease to Indicate that a A.I Weyland is in control of the Company with the Humans not being AWARE!"

That is a nice approach to what I'd describe as the digital records vault for COMNET BigDave. Nice touch! Might it reside in Antarctica?

"Create a A.I that could be used to Obtain and Store the Memories, Emotions and Experiences of a Person and then Pass these onto a Synthetic or other Body... it was Weylands Attempt to gain IMMORTALITY"

The Engineer waking up to Peter Weyland's request, explanation of entitlement to more life or maybe a transfer of consciousness into David didn't go so well.  

One could expect "backup" plan from Peter Weyland and the yacht below might give us a little insight.  David was able to interact with Weyland while he was in hypersleep.

If David is able to use the NeuroVisor tech to communicate with Peter Weyland while he's in hypersleep, then we can expect some "mapping" of his brain in an attempt to capture consciousness.  Why wouldn't he do this?  

Yes, if Peter Weyland's brain is successfully uploaded into COMNET via this mapping, then I think it's curtains for the humans.

I certainly think a A.I Conspiracy could be something that RS would have eventually taken us to, Creating a A.I that then becomes Sentient and has Emotions is something that ONCE that Genie has been let out, it may be Impossible to Truly Put the Lid back on ;)

So we can speculate what kind of Hidden Agenda our Bishop had... some Fans would only see him as the Friendly 100% Trust Worthy Synthetic, but then such Fans likely want to see Ripley, Newt, Hicks, Bishop and Jones return and all live HAPPY EVER after ;)

I think a A.I Conspiracy is Interesting it fits well with the Themes of the Prequels about the Pitfalls of playing GOD, Advancing Technology too FAR and Sub-creation and what KNOWLEDGE you pass to them.  These also FIT Very well with the Alien Resurrection Plot well in part as far as the RECALL and Synthetics creating Synthetics (Autons).

The naming of Androids would depend on what their Purpose is, would we assume as of 2170's that Synthetics are used in Limited Roles and had not become a Tool for Humans like having a ALEXA?  Because if Synthetics were to become a REALITY then each Owner would give their OWN name to their Servant if you would.

In regards to Bishop then this is a Model Number but would every Bishop Model be called Bishop? I guess as a piece of Property they could be given any name really.  But they would still have a Specific Model Name.

The CHESS names is interesting as i never came across that, i dont read the Novels really.  When i worked on a Prometheus 2 Story, i had a Flash Back of David and Weyland playing Chess... with some Dialog.

Where Weyland revealed the Importance of the Rook... my Story would go on to explore a Project Rook, which was that Weyland had attempted to Create a A.I that could be used to Obtain and Store the Memories, Emotions and Experiences of a Person and then Pass these onto a Synthetic or other Body... it was Weylands Attempt to gain IMMORTALITY

He had almost reached Perfection with a Body/Vessel (David) but the A.I could not handle Human Emotions and Memories and would become Unstable and Insane and THUS is why Peter Weyland turned to Dr Shaw and her Chasing GODS.

The Rook was a Building that inside was a Rook Shaped Mainframe that Stored all of Weylands Work, and his A.I Soul which would get Unleashed to the Network (well indicated) at the End of my Prometheus 2.   Which would be a Tease to Indicate that a A.I Weyland is in control of the Company with the Humans not being AWARE!

I was being drawn to maybe Ridley Scott would attempt similar but with David's Soul had he been allowed to Finish the Prequels.

@jdvyne

Certainly there was the Intention of a Loose Connection at play (Paradise Lost, Chariots of the Gods etc)  that maybe we should NOT be looking Too Literal into, but there are intended connections for certain.

It is indicated that the Engineers (or related Race) had been coming to Earth and leaving us Clues to LV-223 for at least 35'000 Years.  We have had Ridley Scott tell us the Engineers would come back and EVOLVE us both Technologically (Knowledge) and Genetically.  

And so ONE of the Big Questions would be WHY would you leave the Clues to a Bio-Logical Weapon Facility to Various Cultures around the World over THOUSANDS OF YEARS?

What we do know is it was NOT as a Invitation, if it was a WARNING then WHY would they Continue to Come and Support/Visit us and yet WARN us of LV-223 for Thousands of Years until a Certain Period when they Abandoned us?

I think it is likely that LV-223 was quite Different 35'000 Years ago ;)

I think we maybe have to look at the Engineers in Context to IGNORE what we know of LV-223 and its Experiments/Outbreak.

They had been indicated as our Creators, they at least play some role in the Seeding and Engineering of Life on Various Worlds, they are Genetic Space Gardeners.

If you look at yourself as a Engineer from that Stand Point and you have to ASK yourself... WHY do you seed Various Worlds and NOT just ONE?

If you was a Gardener and you wanted to Experiment, Cross-Hybrid and Create Various Plants, Fruit etc. You want to take something and Experiment with it then it makes more sense to NOT experiment with all Varieties in just ONE location.

You would have PLOTS of Land that are Separated so one Failed Experiment can-not Infect another, so if you are trying to Create a New Kind of say PEPPER then you would want the Various Experiments to be Separated, if One Experiment is a Fail or becomes Corrupt you can just DIG-UP that Plot of Land and START AGAIN.

Also when looking at Gardening what we have is a Greenhouse/Nursery where we would Grow/Nurture our Experiments and WHEN we are pleased with them, then you take them to ONE of your Gardens and SEED them.

This is how Historically i saw LV-223, as a SANDBOX if you would where they would Carry out Experiments and then Seed the Desired results to Worlds.

The Engineers like to leave Monuments and Recordings of their Success to give them Self Praise.  So those Various LV-223 Clues from the Cave Paintings to others throughout History could be the Engineers simply saying.

"This is where you come from" or "This is where you were created"

They likely NEVER intend us to EVER go there unless some of us are taken their by the Engineers (for Upgrades). It could be the Engineers would ONLY teach their Creations a Certain Level of Knowledge.

We have to remember that LV-223 has Various Temple Complexes and a Good Reason for this is to Contain Different Experiments apart from each other.

The Interior to the Complexes where being Tera-formed so they could Support Life from Earth (other similar Worlds) the Environment outside is HOSTILE and this would be Beneficial so that any Experiments that Escape would NOT make it to another Complex and cause any Contamination etc.

So i think LV-223 was where they would maybe go and Collect Creations from Worlds and take them to LV-223 for further Experiments/Enhancements and then SEND the results they are pleased with down to the Worlds they Visit.

HOWEVER.... at some point in the Past this Place became a Place to Experiment with HORRORS which are Connected to the Deacon/Xenomorph in some way.

There could be some FALLEN way of thinking or Event that leads to this Change...

Because if the Intention of the URNS and Black Goo is to RESET a World, to make it a CLEAN SLATE and the Engineers Agenda is Gardeners of Space and they ONLY would USE such Horrific Bio-weapons on Failed Experiments or Rebellious Experiments.

Then look at the Outcome?

NOW... look at the Sacrificial Scene and ASK.... would it NOT had been more ideal to DROP Thousands of Urns of Sacrificial Goo as a RESET TOOL?

This is what i feel the Purpose of the Juggernauts are, they are a more Modern/Advanced and Efficient Seeding Ship.

The FALL! well we have to ask WHY do they Seed their OWN DNA?

And then WHY do they seem Obsessed/Interesting in other Horrific DNA... they or a Faction must have seen the Deacon DNA Ancestry as something more PERFECT than their own DNA.

I would say jdvyne that your last Point is the Most Interesting one, in that Sub-Creation, Hierarchy, Knowledge and Power are all Very Important to what the Prometheus Themes were about.   There is always different ways to look at the God/Angels and the Titans/Olympian Stories.  There is a lot about Creating a Sentient and Intelligent Sub-Creation and then WHAT kind of Knowledge you pass on to them... and the Risk of Eventual Rebellion. 

We are seeing the same kind of thing between David and Mankind.  So we could assume that one Faction of Engineers may have Rebelled against their Creators/Hierarchy.

The more i look at the LV-223 Engineers then i see David/Replicant Connection compared to the Planet 4 Engineers.

@Leto

I have looked and i cant find that comment either, as well as the Engineers live for 150 Years.  I am 95% Certain i came across such a Interview in the past... maybe it was from a Alternative Dimension as i cant seem to find it anywhere too! ;)

I think regardless all we can  do is Speculate as NOT a lot has been Uncovered/Revealed regarding the Engineers, as far as ON-SCREEN. And so the Origin and Connection of those Planet 4 Engineers could be Changed.

Well the Civilization part was Interesting, if i recall he had said they are NOT a Race but a Civilization and to me this Suggests that there could be a LOT of Mixed DNA as RS had indicated before that just as their are Many Races of Man (we have some differences) then WHY cant the same be said with the Engineers.

The Gardeners of Space and Genetic Engineering does seem to be a KEY element of the Engineers and RS had indicated that the Earth is NOT the only place they have Seeded/Visited and so maybe they do this for some kind of Diversity to their own Genetic Gene-pool?

I think some fans look at the Planet 4 Engineers as NOT being the Engineers because they seemed to LACK that Certain Look of the Prometheus Engineers, and you could be Forgiven for thinking that the Planet 4 Engineers are some kind of Hybrid of a Engineer and Human.

What RS had refereed to a number of times was calling the LV-223 Engineers as the Militant Variety the Military Arm of the Engineers, but i have always found the Engineers as a Race just involved in Experimenting, Creatinging and Unleash Xenomorph like Horrors as something that seems to only be a Smaller Part of their Overall Agenda/Purpose..

The Creating and Seeding of Various Life seems to be the Bigger Agenda to me.  It just seems the LV-223 Goon Squad are called up to CLEAN UP the Mess/Worlds when their Plans dont quite come to Fruition.

Regarding the OT... we have to Wonder if ALL the Engineers are Fallen?

Rook in Alien: The Cold Forge was working for the Seegson Corporation and was described as:

"Rook has a different skin tone, bone structure, and eye color from Marcus, but somehow they're exactly the same."

So, the name above isn't a total confirmation that Bishop models adopted the names in Broken.  Seegson can call their Artificial Persons anything they want I guess. 

The names in Broken didn't reconcile to me because of the Bishop AP in Aliens was embedded in the military and seemingly independent of Michael Bishop...and was still named Bishop.  And the thought of calling a Bishop "Castle" just didn't sound right.

Regarding "Allowing Bishop to kill a bunch of people"...that part was excellent in my opinion because Bishop had to choose sides and was lethal and very fast in showing it.

Then, Bishop was treated as one of the team for the first time after being repaired by Private Hudson and his first handshake was from Sergeant Apone.  Good ending.

I'd forgotten about the other android names in Broken.  That was stupid too.  Bishop model androids would all be called Bishop after the guy who designed them.  Allowing Bishop to kill a bunch of people and say he was 'broken' was very lazy writing.

All the conspiracy theories surrounding Bishop have no basis in the source material.

Artificial Persons' Names

Another part of Broken that I found interesting is that the other Bishop-Model Artificial Persons in the story are named Rook, Castle, King, and Knight.  This part of the story matches the Artificial Person's name in Alien: The Cold Forge "Rook".  A confirmed "canon" novel.

"'Our names are based on chess terms,' Knight replied."

Alien: Bug Hunt, Broken, page 50.

"Rook returns to a console and keys something into it."

Alien: The Cold Forge, page 426.

 "You certainly cant RULE out Bishop as having a Sinister Agenda, we also cant RULE OUT that he has a 2nd Chip that Activates a like Sleeper Cell Program that Bishop may be Unaware he is Carrying out."

That certainly sounds like Special Order 937 to me BigDave. 

I believe I read where you wrote that the short stories in Aliens: Bug Hunt were not ALL considered canon S.M.  So, a special chip could certainly be the reason for Bishop's behavior.

There were parts of Broken that I liked...especially the very little mentioned regarding the factory where Bishop was made.  And the "Sync link" descriptions. 

That Broken story was broken.

Excellent topic Codexas...great find! Thank you for posting.

I edited the manual cover above to include the Bishop Artificial Person cutaway diagram from inside.

" A custom mod?"
"More than that.This was one very special android. Just look at these responses — this thing was a lot smarter than your usual synthetic; it was making up some of its own emotional responses to events."

This segment from the manual above reminds me of the Broken story where there was a change in programming initiated by Bishop opposed to a special chip or hardware upgrade, see below.

“Until he programmed himself.
He opened his sink link to the masks, and turn them off.
He saw the exact moment that they realized they couldn’t breeze, that they taking in lethal gobs of Prevox – laden air. He expected them to shoot, but instead, they drop their weapons and grab for the mass, slapping them as if that would make them work, then wrenching them off to try and gas clean air they didn’t exist, and then...

He closed his eyes and didn’t want to watch the rest. There was a new feeling. Guilt.”

Aliens: Bug Hunt, Broken, page 63.

Bishop was able to bypass, overwhelm his behavioral inhibitors and smother his enemy by accessing their respirators via wireless connection and turn them off.

"In the Apocalypse comic, Keitel refers to them as Giants."

Again this would match (Nephilim meaning Giants). I'm not saying, that the Engineers or Planet 4 people are 1:1 (fallen) angels, Nephilim or whatnot. But I am suggesting, that these stories might provide a background to Prometheus and Alien: Covenant.

At least we know, that Engineers (or a faction of them) visited earth repeatedly in the last 35.000 years. They pointed to LV 223 but didn't outright give humans the technology to go there (probably humans were supposed to develop this technology on their own, as a kind of test weather or not they could get this far). But then when humans arrive there it seems as if this was some kind of military installation/bio-weapons facility (with religious touch, as everything about their culture seems to be deeply religious). This ONLY makes sense, if:

a) LV 223 initially was supposed to be some sort of "welcoming site" built by the "good" Engineers for all of their creations that would manage to get there. But during the last 2.000 years it was raided by the "evil" Engineers and turned into a trap (placing the urns everywhere, which would lead to the destruction of every creation that would get there). This would mean the Engineers leaving the star maps on earth were the "good" ones, the Engineer at the end of Prometheus was an "evil" Engineer and the corpses seen staggering in the caves (as well as the decapitated head) might have been the "good" Engineers, who were being ambushed 2.000 years ago (or they were all killed and burried).

Or b) it was a bio-weapons facility all along (a facility built by the "good" Engineers) and the "evil" Engineers covertly went to earth and incited humans to go there, knowing, that this would wreak havoc (like Satan in Paradise Lost not destroying humans himself but inciting them to apostatise, do something which they're not allowed to do, which leads to God - out of disappointment/anger - destroying his creation HIMSELF). This would mean the Engineers leaving the star maps on earth were the "evil" ones, the Engineer at the End of Prometheus was indeed one of the "good" Engineers and we didn't see the "evil" Engineers in this movie - maybe the Planet 4 humanoids were the evil ones.

So obviously - as all the religious references by RS indicate - there MUST be at least two factions among the Engineers (God - Satan, Zeus - Prometheus): one faction giving or teaching humans stuff that the other faction disapproves of. The hints at Satan and Prometheus seem to suggest, that some "evil" Engineers (like the Watchers in the Bible and Book of Enoch) covertly came to earth and taught humans heavenly secrets (like agriculture, technology and the art of war) without the "good" (God/Zeus) Engineers "government/elders council" knowing it and thus giving humans divine knowledge - knowledge that humans aren't supposed to have (forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge). And as soon as the "good" (Zeus/God) Engineers realised what has happened, they would set out to punish or even destroy humanity.

In my mind it was a huuuuuuuuuuuugh mistake by Ridley Scott to not have developed the Engineers story arc further in Alien: Covenant. You just cannot open one door (Engineers' story arc), make the audience and fans wait for the continuation and then in the movie, that is supposed to be the continuation, show the Engineers, their planet, their city but just ignoring it completely and instead open another door (Davids' story arc) *facepalm*.