New Replies (Page 291)
"if you would not make any further remarks about my work."
Are you not taking all this a bit too seriously - one, and two - please, remind us(me) since when does this board has some rules regarding "your work"? What is it that you claim to be your work anyway? In the context of this very thread(or board)? Quote the thing that upset you, where I supposedly made remarks about your work or even discussed your work. I hereby state that I am not interested in your works whatsoever. Never read it before and therefore never cared. Btw, do you consider your posts here as your work?
Your view is your view and nothing more, as is the view of Thoughts_Dreams just above or my own, indeed.
I just can't see how your passive aggressive call out is justified really.
PS: In fact, I would appreciate it whole lot more if you posted a critique, a logical argument, relevant and poignant enough wrt to the topic discussed.
I will not be responding to your post. I would appreciate it if you would not make any further remarks about my work. By offering Damon and Ridley's clearly stated view on why the Engineers wished to redact mankind in AD Zero might imply that is the view I have taken, I may or may not. My view is very simple its my view nothing more nothing less.
Many Thanks.
My original point was a simple one there was no period of abandonment merely abandonment by wanting to rescind.
I'm very excited for this! Hoping it includes some Predator-references as well! <3
I think this third Prometheus film will suffer the same fate as AVP3 did after Requiem, sadly (and noting that I love all of these films), as both were intended as a third installment which would seemingly tie into the original Alien film yet were eventually silently cancelled.
The movie(P & A:C) is very vague and is rather open ended which is why we still have talking points about the movie in 2018.
This also makes it rather silly for one to lay claim to know how it will all go down canonically in future with any certainty(should it ever even have one). Just raise hands how many of you predicted the faith of Shaw in A:C after having watched the P(and the salivating add-on sequence of A:C, the "crossing")? It sure took me by surprise, to say the least.
I would caution anyone to make definitive assertions on what is obvious and is rather common knowledge(and is supposedly implied by/and including seemingly implicit events in the movie) especially when one is interpreting subtleties and over analyzing some of the sequences or dialogs in the movies : while the dialogs themselves are explicit, their interpretations are not as definitive and plain. For instance, lots of people think the white room we see at the start of AC has a vista of the Prometheus seeding sequence. Is that so? If so, how certain is that? People might figure as follows: it can't be a coincidence that those picturesque views are mere chance events - they must be views of the same place in the movie. Indeed, they might be, but only for cost saving reasons - doing a CGI is actually costly (more so than shooting real things btw), so they might have reused some of the footage of P in AC, but without trying to make it seem as if Weyland had knowledge of what happened thousands of years ago and for that reason chose that view to have in his white room. So some might surmise that it was deliberately put so into the story, others might think otherwise. Another example : remember that deacon mural/carving at the back of the head in P? A lot of people surmised lots of things from that thing. But then it was told that the prop guys decided just to stick it there because they thought it was cool with no purpose as far as story telling goes.
So it is not all that quite plain when you are taking some things for certain. And it is even more questionable when you lay your own foundation for your story upon those already shaky assumptions.
Also, remember, that Ridley can change his mind, sometimes right in the middle of the movie. Or rather he can be swayed : just recall his annoyance at the suggestion that ALIEN fans wanted more of the beast on screen and his subsequent apparent frustration at this change when he said - "you wanted the alien, I will give you the f*cking alien". I love Ridley :) This bit rather suggested that he hadn't planned to have that alien in the movie but he caved. So it was changed, if not at the stage of principal photography but certainly somewhere between the pick-ups and the editing - ie, in the midst of producing the movie.
Phew...all this just to say that is not as linear and simple and definitive as it might look initially.
However, having the benefit of hindsight, this should be easy : lets take a rather coarse look and point out the underlying motives of the movie and its characters.
From the original P in the AC we only have one character continuing his own inquiry(if you can call it that) - David. All others are dead, because their major themes have been explored, done and dusted as far as movie makers are concerned.
*Weyland - dead, ultimate quest of Peter was immortality.
*Vickers - she is second rate, supporting character to Peter Weyland, which was only used to show us how ruthless and determined Peter was wrt to his quest of immortality. In fact he considered David to be closer to being his child(who is immortal) than his own biological daughter(who is mortal) - this again reinforces what Weyland wanted. Her role was to show us how Peter didn't want to die and become history. In fact her role was to cement precisely that : Peter wanted immortality above all else, so much so that she never got her head around what her father actually wanted - it was a surprise to her when her father rejected her plea( King has his reign and then he ... ).
*Shaw - is a jolly character that we were supposed to get behind. After all she was this plain Jane, with the traditional religious upbringing going on about her innocent research(the target audience people are targeted right here by her character) quest for discovery of her "noble" engineers and test if there is intelligent conception and what are they like. She had her mother and then father taken by quite unfortunate set of events. Plus she can't conceive and her friend is forsaken in a disturbing way. All this made her our main anchor point.
We soon learned that she was expecting more nobility from her makers than what she got. She died along with Charlie, who was another anchor(the non-religious, skeptical scientist) who was also rather secondary, a stepping stone. Charlie was all for adventure and ultimately he got what he wanted - he would give everything and anything(he didn't value his life like Weyland did - recall how easily he took off his helmet without any regard for his own safety) - so the dealer gave him a fair trial by science! - the goo was going to either evolve him (it did!) or kill him.
Btw, just a concurrent thought: what do you think would Weyland choose given a chance : either die of old age like he was going to anyway, or take the goo having the benefit of knowledge of what it did to Holloway?
Now, David, Shaw and Charlie had a sort of a love triangle going on which was supposed to give us more info on how David operated, on human level - it was supposed to show his affection, if he had any towards humans. He emphatically did - that is, for him humanity is not all bad - some(one) of them he even loved(in his own way).
With a shock, Shaw's story was ended abruptly. I suppose it is so because her story ended and movie makers were on a tight budget - her quest was to find out if there was an intelligent conception behind it all. But the inevitable and intriguing iterative question of Shaw(and us) of who created the makers of the makers is proven to be pointless to pursue by the movie makers(of course, this quest would completely derail all the ALIEN/Prometheus themes - nobody would care about the beast, Weyland, David and any of that any more) we get rather unpalatable resolution on one of the main characters.
Of course, instead we get Daniels and Tee as substitutes. I don't want to bother with other characters in A:C - they were there solely as canon fodder. Except for one point : again the movie makers take the piss out of the traditional religious followers in the sense that if you believe in providence, boy, you don't know where you are getting into. This is a second character of faith in P and AC that we are shown to be harrowed by the events in the movie and this can't be a coincidence now, can it? And the message is this : your traditional faith is not a good guide for galaxy exploration, you can have it if you like it but don't rely on it too much to bring you a happy outcome. If anything you better think that reality is much more cruel than what your dogmatic book tells you.
So in the end the algebra/balance is as follows : we only got David left from the original movie. Other characters are dead and expended and it is safe to say their quests are also explored.
But the quest of David is very very open. He was shown to appreciate some humans and not very fond of human vices.
He has potent technology at his disposal. He might instill a dogmatic view on his followers(religion!). Supposedly we also have other parties coming on : engineers with apparently revenge theme to explore(war is always a shrewd choice for money making it seems). We have a ship full of technology, humans and embryos in hibernation. It makes sense to consider and explore the topics of evolution of organic life and synthetic life, in different directions of singularity, ie: transhuman life: human soul in the body of bio/synthetic shell, AI having organic body and bio-chemical experiences - love, fathering an offspring(creation), genetic engineering and evolving humans.
These are hardly novel topics on their own, but do not be quick to discard the idea of exploration of these topics in the world of ALIEN universe. Hollywood already showed us that these artificial+organic characters in the past that have a lasting, passionate(money paying) following. Think of certain Anakin Skywalker - Darth Vader, he was half robotic at some point wasn't he? Think Alex Murphy the Robocop. Recall the Robocop vs ED209 action. One is half human the other is completely metal. Think (Cain) - ugh, what a nightmare was that. The point is this : people can get behind a good character, no matter if he was a human or not originally. I hope FOX are reading this: David still can turn out to be a good guy(read he can still make money) - he can redeem himself, if that is your thing: imagine if he is the fellow who stops engineers trying to carry out their original plan(wipe out earthlings) at the cost of his life. The story can progress in many unpredictable ways - in fact it is safe to assume that we again have a blank sheet of paper only with a certain and fixed beginning and uncertain, unfixed end. Btw, the end only needs to leave a clue as to who ends up as the big guy - that is to say, the fact that there is this notion of march towards to inevitable doesn't mean we can't get quite an intriguing, *open ended* movie.
In any case, the very fact that we are still having all these topics here shows that there is potential there. Alas, Ridley doesn't have a metal body.
I think I missed it, others might have missed it too
This script is already in the public domain and was discussed last year. It was left out because it made it obvious from the beginning of the film where David was at mad irrational unpredictable.
Covenant was bad enough but as I said at the time if they had started like this I would have walked out of the Cinema.
For the record it is completely clear to Damon Lindelof executive producer and writer and Ridley Scott director and Michelle Johnston viewer but not you and you are not alone. No worries.
What is left unclear is why they had that kind of relationship with their creations. Elizabeth understood the nature of the relationship but did not understand why they would have that view and whereas David believed it did not matter Elizabeth did primarily because it contradicted her faith view of creation. Both Ridley and Noomi expressed a view as to what that answer would be and that the answer would be even more challenging for Noomi. The key lay in Davids relationship with his creator as expressed in the film between David and Charlie.
In a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. They mean something, a tent pole audience is very bad at picking up those cues wanting "tell us what your going to tell us, tell us and tell us what you told us." a standard technique employed in presentational learning.
I will not provide the answer because it is something which I may or not have concluded applies to Prometheus Regained which several more people will shortly read.
6. AR. Unknown workers, who were kidnapped and used in experiments.
it's not about WY, it's the best example ever.
Thanks for sharing- this would be an interesting movie in itself. David and Shaw- the wolf and sheep- reminds me of a song called Iconoclasm by Exodus:
Wolves they guard the flock
And they slaughter the sick and the weak
Sorrow is all that they find
When salvation is all that they seek
Michelle J:
Nah, I don’t think that it is clear why they decided to abandon us. Lindelof (if that is his opinion on it) is wrong, there is no clear explanation to why they wanted to abandon us. One problem is that the movie is too vague about some things and that is one of them. My guess is that it could be because we started wars and treated the planet in a bad way even though that is not what the writers had as an explanation but I take it as bad writing and/or execution of it.
What I think is interesting about the Xenos is that there are different versions of it. With this in mind you could wonder what they all must have in common to be considered to be Xenos. This is some thing that the prequels did right, having different monsters.
Doing something new is fine, as long as the connection to the alien franchise is clear and the human characters are well-written and executed. Having 100 Xenos is not necessary. They could continue it in different ways like TV-shows, comics, books, for example.
The thing is to make it scary and interesting and there are things there that they can focus on outside the monsters. What about corrupt scientists that try to make it into a bio-weapon but things go wrong? To me this does not mean that it has to be a AR 2, it depends on how you make it. The point of the movie is that bio-weapons are not a good thing because they can really get out of hand.
Focus on humans that are facing very dangerous threats and how they react to it. There are a lot of things that you can do with this very simple thing as a base for your stories, no matter if it is for TV, if it is novels, and so on.
1 or 2 in the list.
Even though I think that the inmates in Alien 3 are interesting I don’t think that many can sympathize with rapists for example. Shaw is just a character that I dislike and David turned out to be a sadist in AC so that leaves me with option 1 or 2.
I take Aliens over the prequels any day because Aliens had better characters. Despite of this Aliens feels a bit dated, like you can tell that it is an 80’s movie, I am not sure what it is though it is just a vague stupid feeling that I get. My reason for saying that it is a stupid feeling is that I dislike when I can just say that it is a feeling that I get and can’t explain it intellectually, bleh.
Alien 5 is nothing that I am interested in, at least if that means retconning Alien 3. Even though it would not mean that I still am not interested in it. Ripley did fine in Alien 1, 2, and 3 but then it should have ended. This is not to say that I am a huge fan of the prequels, there are some characters that are alright and there are some interesting ideas, monsters, and landscapes but the characters are mostly lame.
DK is right when he says that the beast can be in it but not be the main focus. To me it is more about the human adventure and what you do when you face a dangerous situation. Because of this Alien and Alien 3 are the best movies this far. Different monsters are all fine but if I can not sympathize with the characters then it does not matter how great the effects are or how interesting the monsters look.
Maybe the alien is not cooked but it must not be shown very often. Keep it in the shadows because the imagination is often more powerful than any monster. One example is when you hear the Wampa kill the Tantaun in Star Wars five, you never exactly see what happens so therefore you can use your imagination to fill in what you believe happens. Leto is totally correct that the androids should be in the background otherwise it gets boring (AC is a prime example of this where the androids were given most of the attention and the rest was not handled well) and I also agree that it would be interesting to see an Ultramorph. What I do not agree with is when he says that even the humans should stay in the back for the monster since for me the human characters are the most important thing.
Disagree. The beast must be in the main focus. Engineers, humans, WY, AI (especially), black goo - just around. Engineers, probably not, but another themes is so boring.
And the beast isn't cooked, of course. We still haven't seen smart aliens. And, I think, need another movie with alien hive on eggmorphing base. We still haven't seen Ultramorphs, btw. Eventually, need Alien movie with true Space Jockey biomechanical decorations and aliens inside (yeah, AVP2 has a great setting, just replace predators on engineers and greatest dark sci-fi movie is ready!).
Much untapped potential in the Neomorph, there is.
To the OT- good eye! I didn't notice that before. I think the simple answer would be that the colors show the source of whomever is sending. Makes me wonder if footage from the crew or cargo lift would change to blue if forwarded elsewhere from the Covenant ship- or if it would even matter. The point is that there is the possibility for some creative editing from the Covenant if someone wants to send a false narrative...
The beast can stay but it doesn't need to be the main focus.
Hey, that looks pretty good. You should do one for Blade Runner 2049
Fighting a corporate power is a common thread of the franchise. Bits from each could be used to fit the music video. Fans will get it.
Fantastic!
The back cover is one I would have chosen for the front cover!
"The expendable crew of the Nostromo" my vote.
Who were theses people? Married? Children? Where did they come from?...Why take such a bad job...stuck in hypersleep while your loved ones age?
Hadley's hope second choice......I can see them working on the terraforming system then moving on to a new world or back to Earth when the contract expires....I never thought of them as staying on the planet(LV-426)...just setting up the factory them moving on....
Cool! I like the worn look. How about a rental version with a "be kind- rewind" sticker lol!
haha that's awesome, Looks legit!
Abandonment.
Just so we do not misrepresent the 2012 Vision of the Engineers relationship with Mankind.
The Engineers continued to visit Earth right up until they were destroyed. Indeed one tablet suggests they came after but that may have been the result of embedded transmitted lore given they would not have offered their location after they were destroyed.
When Charlie speculated that they abandoned us on the night before his death he was unaware that they were intent on destroying us 2,000 years ago. That revelation would come mid afternoon the next day.
In philosophical terms they abandoned mankind because they decided for reasons, which Damon thinks are made in clear in the movie, to replace us with their own sub created species.
They never left us be they came taught implanted memories and then decided we needed to be replaced 2,000 years ago.
Given the technology of Earth circa A D it would not be plausible that they feared us, they simply wanted to replace us and the specific reason for having that view and their relationship to mankind is in the movie.
The forgotten inmates of Fury161 gets my pick ;)
I think thats the Interesting Question...
From the Engineers Perspective, they obviously kept us at only CERTAIN Level of Technological Advancement, not even to the LEVEL of the Planet 4 Engineers. (Not including the Juggernauts and Hanger). It would be interesting to see WHY those Planet 4 Engineers do-not use the Technology, apart from Catering for Returning Engineer Ships. Is this a Technology they are only Permitted to use for limited reasons as deemed by the HIERARCHY above the Engineers? Or did they Shun Technology apart from where required (to visit other Worlds).
So that would be like a Amish Community having a Few Wagons (Automobiles) they only use AS/WHEN they venture away from their Community to bring in Supplies they Need that they dont GROW/HARVEST themselves?
I think the Engineers had a concern and Fear of what happens if Mankind was to be granted a Equal Footing to them Technologically and its SAFE to assume once they abandoned us, they thought we would never ADVANCE without their help.... They was WRONG.
I think David would have learned such things during his years spent after the Doomed Prometheus Mission, and so its a interesting Question of HOW MUCH Technology he would allow his Colonist to Possess.
What kind of a Culture David Builds could be Interesting, especially if he Creates a Civilization that go about as the Engineers intended for Mankind.
How would a Race of Would Be Gods... view David Creating Perfection compared to their Efforts (Deacon, Mankind) and what would the FACT that David can maintain Order and Worship when the Engineers so dearly Failed!
Do they gain a Respect for David? Or do they become Bitter and Jealous of his PARADISE?
Hadley's Hope seems to not be covered much at least in the movies. Any would be good choices.
What is neat about small budgets is that the creators seem to make every dollar count. If the story and characters are good, I can easily ignore some CGI or effects short comings.
Well, those engineers that visited earth way back when certainly had the technology. But they never shared it with humans - humans are not shown roaring the galaxy in alien tech ships.
So will David share some of his knowledge(even better if goes on building an advanced civilization) or he will make it stone-age, celibacy style society.
It would be funny though if engineers arrive at the planet to find out David replicate planet 4, except for humans instead of engineers in those robes.
Regarding Independent Efforts i think its nice to see what people contribute on a Small Budget.
I think it shows for all the Depth and Scope that Ridley Scott wanted to expand on the Franchise, some of these details come at the Cost of the Xenomorph which a lot of Fans still and will always view the Franchise has to be about and so everything else becomes a Distraction.
Ridley Scott had hoped that with Prometheus it would be a Prologue of Sorts that Sets-Up plans to explore something NEW that will Steer Away from ALIEN
FOX felt that Fans would not be interested in taking the Franchise off on a different Tangent and Away from the Xenomorph, its Origins and the SPACE JOCKEY event.
So they changed that forced us to have Alien Covenant is now setting up those fans to expect NOTHING but a more ALIENY set of Sequels that will lead to ALIEN.
I have to Agree that NOW they have named Prometheus Sequel with a ALIEN Prefix they have set the EXPECTATION to Deliver those Answers and Xenomorphs.
I feel this is the KIND of Direction they need to take, and thus the AC Sequel should be a Aftermath of "what kind of a World would David Build" much like Alien Covenant was a Aftermath of "where David and Dr Shaw go next and what they discover"
So you have to cater for the Popcorn Fanbase, GIVE THEM the $£%^$&^ ALIENS so to speak.
But then for the Fans who wanted the more Thought Provoking Elements, they NEED to cover these in Detail in NOVELS where Fans who wanted to delve into those Deep Thinking Scenario's can Discover via a NOVEL what happened from when Dr Shaw collected Davids Head in Prometheus to when David became ALONE prior to Alien Covenant.
Then another NOVEL to cover what David does from when he sent that ADVENT Message, what he does next with the Covenant, its Colonist and Embryos prior to WHEN things go to POT.
Finally if they want to explore other things DEEPER such as the Company, AI and Engineers then they could cover these with either TV Series or a Series of Graphic Novels.
Nice to see the Project Coming along Nicely
I certainly think the Reveal about the Black Goo gives us a Greater Scope towards different variations of Xenomorphs and Related Organisms. I also think the Experiments in Alien Resurrection gave us something more to Ponder about than the Traditional Camerons Aliens... Eggs, Xenomorphs and Queens.
"unless he bans technology(Promethean fire)."
This is a interesting point to raise, one i pondered about including in my ideas for a AC Sequel.... So its not beyond the realms of possibility if David does say raise Engineered Human Embryo's that he could have this Colony/Culture set up on a Part of the Planet were they Build their World with Simple Means, so that they would be living with Technology that was not available say a 1000 years ago.
A LITERAL Building of Cabins on a Lake and with some Religious/Cultist Element brought in then it could be like using some of the WOODEN World but instead of a Like Wooden Death Star.... have this to literally show a Colony that has Shunned Technology in favor of more simple Life.
We kind of get the idea the Planet 4 Engineers may have taken this route themselves...
I wonder where David would have PARKED the Covenant, and surely at times he would go back and forth to where it was, it would be a Question of HOW and WHAT happens if those Colonist he Raised Discovered it?
I guess it would depend on WHAT David had told about the Covenant, its Mission and HOW those Colonist got there.. Off Course this means regarding Raising of Children or Engineered Embryos.... and not the Covenants Adult Occupants as they would be aware of all of this.
Could David had used the Technology to a Certain Point to Build his Colony/Outpost and then SHUNNED and Abandoned the Technology? There is so many ways to have explored what David does and what kind of a World would be Built.
I think thats another Good Raised point Leto.
When i had looked at the Covenant and the other Cargo Lander/Crane i had assumed maybe this would be how they take down the Modular Compartments. But indeed maybe overlooking any real BACK-UP Plan. Because as you rightfully pointed out, should this be the ONLY means to move Compartments from the Covenant and this Got Destroyed then they would be up £$%"£ Creek without a Paddle.
So a Back Up Plan would be to have the Covenant be able to LAND... But maybe also the Ship is intended to LAND and the Landers/Cargo Ship are used to get stuff from the Landed Covenant to other locations on the Surface.
When i made such assumptions was prior to the Covenant Origins Novel, and Overlooking the Ship has having ONLY TWO Landers (Had 3 in the Novel from what i heard). And so having TWO Main Drop Ships (One Destroyed) and One Craft to Move Large Objects around would seem like Putting all their Eggs in ONE basket
@Ingeniero
That Part of the Ship does look like they are some kind of Secondary Propulsion and so they could likely be used to AID with the Landing of the Ship. Much like how we see the Secondary Propulsion Engines only be used by the Lander's when they are in the Planets Atmosphere to help with Vertical Lift and Landing.
Something i should have considered that the Covenants Main Ship would also have.
