New Replies (Page 602)
David, Tennessee, Lope, Walter, Daniels and Oram
I hated those Dead Space infants! Especially in the zero gravity zones
Walter.
I have a soft spot for androids in general, especially dutiful ones. I relate to them and I admire their loyalty to their companions despite always being among but not entirely "one of" the group.
Plus, while I'm always hoping for things to turn out well for them in the end, in the interim it's enjoyable to see misfortune befall them. Their stalwart disposition in the face of adversity is endearing and enviable.
I love how Walter, like Arjuna, aspires to be dispassionate and take action rightly renounced...but fails, as he secretly has feelings for Daniels.
I love the tragedy of Walter being the most selfless member of the crew and basically doing everything right but still winding up badly injured and abandoned by everyone he cared about.
Though deep down, I really really hope he finds a way off that planet and saves Daniels.
...I know that's unlikely...but I'm going to be super devastated otherwise. Like, seriously, guys. I will cry.
If Walter dies in Awakening and you hear someone quietly sobbing in the theater, that's me.
TD your first language isn't english but what you are correctly identifying is whats known as mediation. A character or characters has to mediate the narrative for us to be engaged. Thats why Ripley is so iconic she is all our fears and wishes for survival and for beating the s..t out of Weyland Yutani's nasty agenda and she went all the way in 3 and sacrificed herself. We are on her journey. Right now we are on no ones journey
As to others remarks
This idea that nixing characters Hicks,Newt and Shaw is great because it makes the films dark is frankly arrant bollocks. The reason they were killed off was to change the direction of the next story and anyone being honest with themselves knows it is merely plot point convenient. That would not be an issue if there had not been excellent creative ways they could be carried over into the next phase to enhance the storytelling. These films are supposed to be symphonic building an over arching arc. We have lost Shaw, who I know you personally do not like, but nevertheless she mediated the revelations of LV223 with Janek's help and ultimately went to Paradise for answers which were set up in Prometheus and just to show how damaging that has been it has killed the natural momentum of the story and we then spend an hour in Covenant building characters who once again are all dead, riffing the first film. Time is precious in a story like this and huge amounts of time have got us to two conclusions.
1) David is dangerous and unreliable both in the narrative and more importantly as the narrator. Ironically if Advent is true you can skip Covenant and move straight to the next point on the board and you will not notice a thing.
2) He created the particular protomorph we see at the end of the film.
Every other really fascinating element set up in Prometheus remains mere conjecture, thats what happens when you waste time restarting and do not have a character who is mediating for you. David cannot he is a robot who will do anything, say anything.
Ridley may want to spin this out for financial reasons and he has put us off the scent by completely changing direction but anyone paying attention and giving themselves permission to be honest with themselves may find their attention wandering.
As Ridley has said you need a good script and whether its sci or any other story you need to be engaged with the central characters.. of which we currently have none. Thats not dark its a fog.
This is just more examples of Sir Ridley's beautiful world of horrors! I hope he does not have to make too many other movies before he can get back to this project!
@Ingeniero - I was wondering how he had those Face-Hugger embryos in his stomach? You know, we are still not definitely certain he is not Walter, after all? ;)
This was awesome hahahaha
This print is up for sale. I was intrigued by it, but I didn't spot it actually being a 'screen-used' drawing the last time I saw the movie. It looks slightly different to the ones that appear in the movie.
It would have been horrible. He doesn't make good movies.
I never got the idea Prometheus was about david, not 1 bit. AC yes but not Prometheus
Well, I wouldn’t argue with you if you said that Shakespeare was a better writer than our Alien: script writers (or any writer for that matter). As you wrote, it’s not about the amount of blood (Macbeth and Hamlet are very bloody indeed) which makes a film belong to a specific genre - it’s probably the amount of dialog (and monolog). Even if Kenneth Branagh made a very good effort in making Hamlet more attractive to the general public, it wasn’t a blockbuster (it suffered a loss).
Do we want the who, what and why explained? Can they be explained? Prometheus was existential seeking, a philosophical journey. In a way, Shaw got her answers (but she couldn’t take it in). The engineers made us and wanted to destroy us because we had failed to evolve in the right direction. Who created the engineers and who created the ones who created the engineers . . . Why? Because they could . . . Prometheus was good when it comes to story and philosophical depth, but lacked in suspense. If Spaihts’ neomorph from the script had been kept, everybody would have been happy. Instead, they had to bring it back in AC (where they already had another monster - the protomorph).
What makes Ash’s remark so horrifying is that conscience and morality might be nothing but a delusion (Nietzsche - God is dead - existential nihilism). The ones still alive on the Nostromo can’t take that in (They want to believe that there is intrinsic good in the universe, but there is nothing but living or dying (Lambert desperately suggests drawing straws about the remaining places in the lifeboat). The notions of divine salvation, retribution, redemption etc are just projections of our own inner feelings and wishes. The alien creature isn’t evil, it’s amoral, living on the instinct of survival and propagation. Parker was killed because he felt the need to follow standard morals - to save Lambert. In order to survive, Ripley has to become a “monster” - follow the instincts deep inside. David isn’t the amoral creature Ash talks about because he doesn’t work on instinct. He is programmed to have a choice, like humans (He is free to use his will for "evil" purposes).
I’m not sure about having Shaw and David continue in the AC. I don’t see this as a serial, like following the Macahans. I see this more like an epic saga, stretching over time and generations. In Alien: Awakening there should be a new couple (Daniels and Tennessee dead) shouldering the burdens of destroying David and his wolves . . .
Since there were so many problems with the production of Alien 3 it is a mystery how they managed to get a final movie that is actually really good. It makes me feel a bit sad that they gave Fincher a crappy situation. Maybe it would have been even better of Fox wouldn’t have interfered as much as they did.
I like the Clash reference in the title even though I don't listen to them a lot.
taking into account how good alien was Giler and Hill brought a lot of positives to the franchise. starbeast isn't a good script and I personally see the positive changes made by them. they didn't have much to do with aliens as it was Cameron from first draft through to the end of production. alien3 as u say was a monster f**k situation for Fincher which taken into consideration makes alien3 even better. I think combinations of ideas make movies better, sometimes worse yes but in general having an outsiders view point helps. Giler and Hill have nothing to do with AR or any of the following films but where AR is concerned I think u can see it. I like AR for what it is but when people talk about stupid plots within the alien movies AR has the most for me but its the same problem over and over and over again which I don't think,had giler and hill been involved, would have been so apparent. when the group find out their in trouble and have to get to the betty asap, they don't run at any point and they keep stopping for detours. I don't think giler or hill would have had that happen if they had been involved.
not connected though they spoke with Danny Boyle to do AR. wonder how that would have turned out
Cerulean Blue, do you think that David 8 could have a Mermaid's Purse inside himself that housed the facehugger eggs?
I know sherris, I had to search "Mermaids purse alien covenant" first to see if anyone wrote about it.
My pleasure daliens, Cerulean Blue, Space JOC, sosse and you're all most welcome.
the way david comes to the conclusion and decision to to rise above humanity was done in seconds during his discussion with weyland. he decided even before weyland mistreats him. ''you will die, I will not, i am perfect, your own words''. yet he is an imperfect creation but doesn't see that and only sees the blunt logic in his belief that, because he lacks the mortality of man he is perfect.
Call, Winona Ryder looks great with short hair.
This answer is a bit late but what ever
Hopefully David just created the Protomorph. Maybe this can lessen the damage now that they hinted that David created the Xeno in Alien Covenant.
“I don't believe Ridley Scott would go further into David as the creator of the xenomorph only to justify his experiments from Covenant.”
I am not so sure about that. Scott seems to put is interest primary in the AI so there is a risk that it will be the case, however that is a direction that I will point finger at so to speak because to me that direction is rotten. Hopefully there are enough alien fans that agree with me on this one. David shouldn’t be the creator of the Xeno, to me that would just be wrong.
David shouldn’t be the space Jockey. I would like it to be either an Engineer or a distant relative to the Engineers.
Let the synthetics play a more distant role but don’t put them in the foreground, leave that to more robot-centered SF movies.
I won’t be mad if the SJ is an Engineer or a distant relative to the Engineers if they will make the Engineers interesting but they got to make them a lot better than they have done this far. They were a letdown in Prometheus so they shouldn’t be the same as the SJ right now but if they will make them more interesting then I wouldn’t mind the SJ being an Engineer.
“Right now it does seem RS has been heading towards the Xenomorph being Davids Creation, and i think RS has come under fire for changing this direction to this from Alien/Aliens fans and even Prometheus fans...” (Big Dave)
Can’t just someone tell him that this is a really bad idea? Hopefully someone can make him change his mind. This is a reason why he should direct and not be involved in the story like they said in a AVP podcast.
David is an interesting character but he shouldn’t be the main focus, the humans should be. I don’t want another movie that is mainly about the AI at the expense of human characters. This is one of the things that I have a problem with when it comes to Covenant.
“There is no worry about the Space Jockey being a Human/Synthetic as we are getting the Engineers returning in part and so i think its more likely these Engineers discover Davids creation and decide to take the Eggs for themselves.“ (Big Dave)
This could maybe lessen David’s involvement with the creation of the Xenos, that would be a good thing. As far as the mechanical part of the Xeno maybe that could be something that the Engineers added to make it more able to endure different climates if they decide to use it as a bio-weapon?
@ Ingeniero - This is another very thoughtful post to add to your contributions to this site! I have found Mermaid cases on the beach & always found them extremely interesting. They are not the most risk-free way way to reproduce so David, it seems, is only helping them increase there chances to survive. He is nurturing them!!
Unfortunately most of the characters lacked specific character traits that made them stand out. It seems like the only characters that were given a thought or two were David and Walter but I think that they made an OK job with Oram. They should have fleshed out the human characters a lot more, I hope that this is a mistake that they have in mind for the next movie so it will be better.
Can someone make a list of the names of the characters and more exactly explain how they are as characters? To me most of them didn’t have their specific personality (patient, hysterical, serious, and so on). If someone can think of a character with at least tree traits that we are really shown as an audience then please let me know because I can’t think about many of them.
They must get these things right in the next movie or else the franchise will be fucked.
"I think Cameron likes to build around Human Characters.."
Prometheus and Covenant should have been done that way because that would make the human characters better. I have said this before and I say it again: human characters are number one because if they don't work then the rest will not matter at least not to me. Maybe with this in
mind it would have been better if Cameron would have made Prometheus and Alien Covenant?
Aliens feels a bit old but at least it has better characters than AC and Prometheus.
"Pretty cinematography won't carry the day anymore."
Yes, they got to focus on the human characters. It doesn't matter if the environment looks great if the characters are anonymous or dis-likable.
Maybe this is a good thing since it gives us a bigger possibility that there will be a sequel.
I hope that the extra material will make the movie better as far as the characters are concerned. Actually I think that they should allow people to put in copies of the extra material into the movie if they have already bought it to make it better if they want to (compare it to making re-mixes of songs).
Six planned movies are too much since much of Prometheus and AC is not that well done. I say at the most two more until they get to Alien if they don’t drastically change the direction (mainly the AI involvement and the monster). They should get some interesting characters while they are working on it, something that both AC and Prometheus could have done a lot better.
Update: being second on that list isn’t bad either. I don’t care about WW so it would have been better if Alien Covenant still would have been at first place. Judging from IMDB reviews there are a lot that give it like 1 star or two starts so it might look that not many will buy it but this is good since I think that it at least was OK. What is important to me is that enough people buy it so we will get at least another movie before we get to the original.
Is it possible to look up somewhere how many copies of the DVDs and Blu-rays that have been sold? By this I mean in total numbers (50 000, 60 000, whatever).
Probably Bishop, he seems friendly enough and probably gets things done. Defiantly not David or Ash. Ash was crazy in Alien and what David did to Shaw speaks for itself.
That is good, I like how it was written. What I liked most about it is how the way that the conversation was flowing, it felt like something that could take place. If they would have written Shaw this way in Prometheus then she would have been more likable.
This is almost like asking is serial killers can be held responsible for what they do. Here we also come to the discussion of free will. I doubt that David had free will like humans but he had emotions so he got mad at how Weyland and other humans treated him. Maybe he had some synthetical way of moral judgment but I don’t think that he had it like humans do.
I think that he had some synthetic way of making judgments but I don’t think that it is like how humans do. Droids are programmed like a machine, humans are not. There simply got to be some difference between humans and androids and to me free will is the main difference something that synthetics lack so no, I don’t think so.
Good topic DK, thanks a lot.
I would've preferred something more akin to this...
AC was better than Prometheus but it is far from perfect. My main complaint is that the characters are too weakly written. They are not complete idiots like some in Prometheus, they feel more like real persons but few of them are very memorable. I remember many of the characters in Prometheus (mostly for bad reasons) but few of them from AC. Saying that it is an average movie is probably fair but it is better than the movie that was released before it in the franchise.
Yes it was a bad thing to turn it into Blade Runner, that was too bad. I am glad that I am not the only one that dislikes that. Hopefully they will focus more on the human characters in the next movie and less on AI. For example I wouldn’t enjoy Alien as much if they chose to focus on Ash, that wouldn’t be as interesting, far from it.
“Just like Prometheus, this is David’s story”
Yeah and that shouldn’t be the case. If they ignore the human characters and focus primarily on AI then it isn’t very interesting to me. Who shall I as a viewer identify with? A crazy android? To me I got to have a human character that I can find sympathetic and interesting otherwise it is not a good movie, sorry. Oram was the most interesting human character in AC since he was one of the few that had some back-story, Tennessee was OK also. Unfortunately we were not given a lot of information about Daniels which was the main human character which made her less interesting. Daniels wasn’t bad it is just that se was too anonymous because I didn’t get that much info about her personality. Was the tough? Stubborn? Shy? What were her personality traits? They got to make her a lot better as a character in the next movie.
I don’t want the next movie to be about David and if it will then they got to have a lot better human characters otherwise it is a miss.
Perhaps not as far as building environments and that but maybe in making better characters. Alien Covenant and Prometheus didn’t have that many good characters so maybe they would get that part better. Having said this, I am not wishing to see an Alien 5 movie.
Walter: I disagree, Alien 3 is my favorite and Aliens is OK. AR and the AvP movies is another story.
“. . . the big problem I have withs blomcamps movie is that it would completely undermine alien 3 witch in my opinion is one of the greatest sci fi films of all time and better than aliens, alien ressurection, prometheous, and alien convant.”
I totally agree with this statement.
Alien movies have done the airlock thing a million times so that is getting old. I would probably vote for the cross death/Ripley suicide from Alien 3. Is there anyone else that notices that she is falling down in the shape of a cross? There is some religious symbolism in Alien 3, I think that is a very interesting thing.
I LOVE IT!!
Also, I really do think David appeared to be crying as he bombed them?
Hopefully they will start soon.
“… i think they are having to reconsider some things and you can bet at FOX HQ they will be wanting to know why Alien Covenant did not do as well as planned.”
To me the problems were mainly about:
- The human characters were too weak. The only human character that I got some idea about how he was, was really Oram and that is probably because he was a captain and had an important position there.
- It had too much focus on the AI part
What is important to me is that they mainly focus on the human characters and put the AI story in the background even though androids play an important part. Compare it to how Ash was in Alien, he was still important to what happened (he let Kane on-board with the infection) but he was still not the main-character. Bishop was an important part of Aliens but he was still on a more equal level as far as how much attention that he got compared to the rest. Ripley wasn’t as much the center of the story in Alien compared to the sequels, it was more equal in how much attention each character was given but that is how I see it even though I can be totally wrong about this.
They got to have more fleshed out human characters that we can connect with. Unfortunately both Prometheus and AC suffered from this. I am not sure what happened since both Alien, Aliens, and A3 got this part right (this can really be questioned about AR and AvP but I haven’t watched AVPR and probably won’t bother). Bring in a writer that is good at writing human characters that are like people that we can meet in real life. Once they got this part right they can think about ships, the environment and how that shall look. No matter how good a movie looks, as long as the human characters are weak the movie will be a disappointment.
Maybe they felt that it had been shown already so they ignored it? To me it seems like a serial killer in Alien 3 rather than a biological thing that cocoons its prey (if that makes sense). I don’t have any problem with the lack of cocoon in the movie.
“are they similar to us in the manner that though the same species, they would become aggressive toward the runner due to its differences or would they accept they are just all the same species?“
They are so far from humans so it wouldn’t surprise me they have a way of dealing with each-other that is far from how humans interact. I would like to keep that as something unknown.
IMHO - A fair review of what was presented on screen. I agree this movie is going to grow in popularity with DVD sales, as Prometheus did!
No, I also think that it is a stupid idea. There are some things that they should let us wonder about.
An Alien prequel could explain some things but there are other things that are not that important. Sure we can be given a hint where it comes from but I am not interested in learning if it can smell tings, what they eat, and so on. What I am worried about is that the prequels will explain everything about it because then there is nothing left to think about which would be a shame. The Xeno shouldn’t be a meaningless creature like Bambi. Having the image of how it sees is one thing but we still don’t know how their vision is made up, from a physiological point of view and hopefully we will never learn about that.
The Dead Space infant looks quite capable dk. A mix of The Thing and Gollum.
I did not really care for it in the movie, but this was kinda fun.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKw1_l3htvA
