Comments (Page 732)

@ Hox,

While I appreciate your enthusiasm it is well known that the Alien series of movies ignores time dilation and its effects, as shown in Aliens special edition when Ripley says that she promised her daughter she would be home before her eleventh Birthday despite going on a mission spanning almost 160 light years (Zeta II Reticuli half way between Thedus and Earth makes it around 80 years away from earth).

Also unless Private Crowe was bisexual, it is inferred that Arcturian males and females are indistinguishable from each other, thus making them Alien, as in not human.

Remember it took the Prometheus around two and half years to travel to Zet Ii Reticuli, arriving there in 2093. The USS Sulaco only took around two weeks (Hicks said 17 days for a rescue - up to 3 days for the marines to fail to radio in plus two weeks flight time) in 2179. And I think I remember hearing somewhere that Ripley was on an 11 month trip aboard the Nostromos return trip to Thedus in 2122. Nearly six months there, and another six back, means around three months travel time to Zeta II.

Covenant is set 10 years after Prometheus in 2104, nearly 20 years prior to Alien, which at a ball park number would suggest 12-18 months flight time to Zeta II, but the Covenant was only in flight for around 7 months.

Neutrinos themselves would do no damage. Tonight, when you are lying in bed, consider that each second trillions of neutrinos are whizzing through your body, having started their journey 8 minutes earlier in the centre of the Sun, and belted right through the body of the Earth unimpeded. The reason being that they are tiny neutral particles and rarely interact with matter. A neutrino is to an atom as an atom is to the Solar System.

Massive changes in a star's core can result in bursts of neutrinos. For example, a supernova sheds most of its energy in the form of neutrinos. They travel at or very close to the speed of light. Such changes can result in a star blowing off shells of plasma (stellar flare). These travel very quickly, but not nearly so quickly as neutrinos. So, the neutrino burst in Covenant is a little like the lightning before the thunder, except it's the thunder that is destructive. It's the stellar flare, which is actually a blast of high speed protons, that does the damage.

Arcturians are not necessarily 'alien' any more than Russians are 'alien', unless you use the word in the sense of 'foreign'. Arcturians are presumably denizens of the Arcturus system, which is some 37 light years from Earth in the constellation Boötes.

The planned flight time of Covenant contrasted with Prometheus suggests that Origae 6 is not tremendously far away, in the low hundreds of light years at most. That's nothing compared with the distance to the edge of the Galaxy (around fifty thousand light years). It's inconceivable that Origae 6 would be in another galaxy, because you're then talking millions of light years as a minimum.

Some of this can be reconciled  with Special Relativity: you don't have to exceed lightspeed to travel vast distances. The faster you go, the slower your clocks run, and it is entirely possible to travel a million light years in a human lifetime. The problem is, a million years will have passed on Earth. Not much use to the Weyland Company.

So, when Van Leuwen says there have been colonists on LV-426 for 'more than twenty years' in Aliens, this must mean that these ships are exceeding light speed from our perspective. i.e. a real faster than light drive.

@Chilli

Thanks for your reply. Its important to stress that Matt and Dane's remarks start this discussion from a position of conjecture and deliberate ambiguity. In the sameway ADF wanted to create ambiguity over the creation story of the XX121 (that the Alien Pathogen was created by the Engineers no one seems to be in doubt about, though how that came about and why and its relation to the catalyser remain again interpretation).

Note 

I must quickly point out that after the ambiguity of Prometheus I am surprised they deliberately pursued ambiguity. 

As to my interpretation there are two elements in the movie which visually suggest a straight crash, one the appearance of the docking vehicle in the fly over scene at the end and the fact that the bomb doors are open in the crashed juggernaut. However if I wanted to rampantly follow my interpretation I could find plausible outcomes. 

The real point is the one of time and point of departure and where she lived on arrival. You mention that living quarters appeared in the Juggernaut, a great edition to the book, but I take it this was established in the first phase pre cryo sleep.The period between David being repaired and Elizabeth entering cryo sleep is unknown but she is seen drinking and looking out reflectively suggesting the passage of time.  Once landed they then move to the Cathedral or alternatively only David. Her period in the cathedral may mark her incarceration post escape attempt and during David's experiments on her. 

What is extremely notable at the time of the Covenants arrival is that several precious items of Elizabeth are not in the Cathedral but the alcove she made her most intimate living area in the Juggernaut. The journal, the crucifix, the photo of her and Charlie.  

So I am Elizabeth I am going to make my escape I know some items were left behind from the crossing and after we landed but I am absolutely going to take my crucifix, photo and journal (they are me), thats assuming she lived freely for a period in the Cathedral. The fact these incredibly important memento's are on board the Juggernaut suggests her last independent actions took place there. Its also worth remembering that Oram on hearing her singing remarks "So much regret. And distress". This for me fits perfectly with the notion of her recognising the truth of the planet and the disaster, her foolhardiness in supporting David so she gets to make the crossing, and her newly developed fear of him.  

I am grateful to your playing devils advocate because it makes me think harder not just about a plausible vision but what is implausible. If she wasn't trying to escape what are those items doing on the Juggernaut. If of course it landed securely she may have never moved out of the Juggernaut pre escape attempt. Whether she lived only on the Juggernaut pre escape attempt or lived for a time free in the Cathedral, it is very telling that her precious possessions are on board the Juggernaut both foot paths lead to the same conclusion the message and her important possessions on board the Juggernaut represent her last point of freedom.

If the Juggernaut crashed immediately then once they are certain the air is safe they would leave and Elizabeth would have taken her treasured possessions with her.

@Vaita 

Reproduction without a moral compass and for its own sake thats always been the A L I E N for me and its broadly what David says in the cathedral in the book. Its why the Prometheus mythos of creationism within a wider creationism was such an interesting subject. Put simply perverted creationism following a fall in Paradise, or even that mankind is merely an experiment to be redacted by this slightly superior species who amongst other things stole the fire and created a number of unscheduled outcomes. 

That he is marooned with a woman whom has treated him with dignity and repaired him and his programming allows him to enter the human emotional dynamic with all power and no wisdom or circumspection is an extension of those whose sexual motivation is not informed by humanities saving grace, love. 

The curse of men is impotence and that of woman being barren. I think Noomi was right there was the potential in a follow up to explore Shaw and a darker side driven by the co dependent relationship of a barren woman and a robot. Definitely a missed opportunity. 

Even if he did have or later developed romantic feelings it would be an unsatisfying relationship for Daniels. I assume she is a sexual person and I doubt Walter has proper equipment, and even if he did, it and him would not work like a human man. I feel as if something would always be off, seem like taking advantage of one meant to serve. I do think Daniels had developed a tender feeling for him though, the extent of which unknown. 

Speaking of romantic relationships...if those big, strong, handsome engineers show up again...hmmm.

I’m starting to wonder if Shaw died twice. The Crossing seems to suggest to me that Shaw was ill. As well as a way of using less food supplies etc, Shaw going into hypersleep may have been a way of slowing down her deteriorating state. Using hypersleep in this way certainly worked for Peter Weyland. David, I imagine would also have been to communicate with Shaw in hypersleep state, just as we saw him communicate with Peter Weyland in Prometheus. At some point David learned of the Engineers ways, but was this knowledge communicated to Shaw during hypersleep?

Now to my point about Shaw dying twice, if Shaw had an infection which was brought on by the side effects of the goo would the end result of not being able to treat her, result in her becoming a zombie. Although her body is alive, would the personality Shaw have died? This being the point where David decides he has lost Shaw as person. Something we do not know, is that if Shaw was ill, did this affect her mental state. This could also have acted as a trigger for David to make a judgement call and decide if Shaw was no longer Shaw to him, and then treat her as a lab rat.

One thing that does stand out from The Crossing is that David and Shaw did develop a relationship, but the problem is deciding at what point David’s personality took a downturn. We have been lead to believe that David has gone mad by the time we see him in AC, but trying to decide when he became one bit short of a sub-routine is tricky.

I think The Crossing works well in that we can take it seriously. From a practical movie making perspective, would AC have worked if we had seen Shaw as a zombie?

Maybe Shaw did become some sort of zombie, but the idea might have been ditched because it would not have worked well cinematically and what we could have got, might have been a very second rate xeno/zombie movie with very little credibility.

@Michelle Johnston I had made a previous supposition when I first posted here that David had killed Shaw after she sent that distress beacon, although I thought he had initially crashed the ship, marooning them for some time on the planet as a sort of Adam and Eve.

I am going to make a couple of more guesses about David. He was made completely sexually impotent by his creators; able to understand and observe sex and creation, but not partake...thus, he has no genitals or seed. No genitals! There I said it! He's a Ken barbie doll. I'm going to hazard a guess that Weyland was asexual himself and saw no need for his perfect creation to have a set, or be able to engage in sex acts. Vicker's is probably an in-vitro/artifical or surrogate womb baby.

This could give some further essence to Giger's art being David's weird android dreams in these movies. In Giger's art there are numerous explicit images of human-like female creatures being penetrated anally, vaginally, and orally by biomechanical tubes. In the case of David's drawings of Shaw, there is an oral penetration, and this may be David's only way to potentially act out sex and an impregnation (violent creation). He can potentially do this himself via expectorating up embryos (like his creations the face huggers) into his victim mouths/throats (could have been attempting this on Daniels).

Food for thought! Violence and sex are trademarks of the human condition, possibly the Engineers as well, and now David!

And then with Resurrection we have autons, robots created by robots. A way to create, by a desire to create still manifested in  androids hundreds of years after Ripley.

David didn't swap programming with Walter. It's David in his own body we see on the ship at the end, he's wearing Walter's clothes pretending to be Walter. David cutting his hair early on foreshadows this. Walter is still on the planet, presumably shut down or disabled in some way. If it was a simple programming thing then David and Walter would not have to look alike for it to work. 

Ridley Scott explains the switch in this Podcast: Alien: Covenant Spoiler Special With Sir Ridley Scott

Actually, the book very vaguely describes that it is not Walter, but David.  This only becomes obvious right at the end of the novel.  The novel doesn't spell it out that David switched places with Walter like in the movie.  We can only think it's David after the following paragraph in the book...

p.344 (2nd to last page of the whole novel):

David says to Mother, "Use security hailing code David 31822-B.  And in the meantime, I'd like some music.  Richard Wagner.  Das Rheingold, act two.  The entry of the gods into Valhalla."

p.345 (the last words of the novel):

Turning, he walked out into the holding room, gazing contently down at row upon row of sleeping colonists.  His colonists.  His subjects.  He smiled.  His future.

Walter wasn't listening to music on the Covenant at the beginning of the book and, from the movie and novel, we know that David likes music.  Plus, the music selection just seems like David's style.  The last sentences in the book almost spell it out that it is David and not Walter.  Using the David code could almost spell out that it is actually David too.  Thankfully I watched the movie first, so it was easy to think through the ending of the novel and actually know that it is David and not Walter.

So, there is no inclination that David switched chips or bodies with Walter in the novel.  That theory can only be deducted from the movie and not the novel.

Yea, I don't know how David could trigger a neutrino burst, but the Engineers could have developed one for "Paradise" to protect the people living on the planet, like a nuclear bomb, but to cause damage to space ships.

I like to think that David knew of the Covenant mission before it left Earth and hacked the computer to alter the Covenant mission to pass by "Paradise".  When the Covenant would be near "Paradise", it would be passing during an active phase of a nearby star which would caused the solar flare which damaged the Covenant.  Naturally, they pick up Shaw's signal and discover "Paradise".  This whole idea is based on the question of what actually caused damage to the Covenant.  Walter describes it as a neutrino burst in one part, then a stellar flare in another, and then some crew left on the Covenant late in the movie describe it has a solar flare.  My memory could be wrong according to Kethol about what the space phenomena was described as, but I remember the movie saying "solar flare" in one part and if they said "stellar flare", the theory is still good.

@BigDave But i think they went for the differences in the Movie to show how David is different to Walter and that Walter Models do not have the Emotional Ability or Understandings of the earlier models. So Walter is a Straight up Robot who does not have these feelings.

Its to kind of show us the differences like in Star Trek TNG with Data and Lore

Ah, but Data did acquire feelings eventually, and even though he didn't have human emotions throughout most of the series, he could still feel in an android way. He explains it to Deanna once that when someone he knows dies, his brain misses the loss of the familiar connections it makes when previously interacting with that person. In effect, he is used to them, as we become used to our friends and family.

Perhaps Walter is a more evolved version of that... As much as he doesn't have David's emotional scale, who is to say he can't learn? He may never love as a human does, but then, he's not human. So, maybe he's not supposed to... He's supposed to love in his own way.

However, I think keeping the Engineers mysterious is NECESSARY. The Gods having some type of ulterior motive incomprehensible by humans is absolutely vital to keep them interesting. Alien: Covenant ruined that by making them humanlike with all their Ancient Roman architecture. Giger, the brilliant artist, laid the foundations many years ago. I just wished Ridley would follow that. 

@BigDave

It’s interesting that the sci-fi industry has neglected Einstein’s theory of relativity. If you were to travel at light speed (which is impossible) space-time would contract and you would get to your destination in 0 time. No need for hypersleep chambers. :)

Anyway, the time it took to get to Planet 4 apparently is almost a year (but David might, of course, have been up to something on the way). As you suggest, they might have been floating around in space for months before Shaw decides to trust David and put him together. They must then have brought plenty of food from the Prometheus wreckage or Ms Vicker’s life boat.

I agree that it’s a bit hard to see how she “slowly” puts him together. One cord at a time? What were they doing all this time (as they floated about)? Playing cards? David would have a problem with poker hands. :)

Has anyone looked into the extras ??

I seen there was a few different versions which have associated goodies?

Wondering if anyone has their heart set on a particular version?

Hope mine will be a free 2000 page Engineer Bible with so many answers we dont have enough questions ;)

Maybe on the directors cut lol

@Michelle

“The unreliable narrator” is interesting, especially when it comes to David. It makes me think of “The Tell-Tale Heart” by Edgar Allen Poe. The narrator tries to convince the reader that he is not insane (which he is).

In Foster’s novel, Shaw not only lived for some time in the juggernaut, she also had living quarters in the temple (as you point out Michelle). So, she lived for some time in the juggernaut where they had manufactured furniture and paper by using wood from the surrounding forest, and she also lived for some time in the temple where she had living quarters of her own. It seems like years before David made an end to her freedom, privacy, and life?

Apparently, they arrived on Planet 4 in December 2094. On the carved urn (made by David) purportedly containing her ashes, Shaw died 2094 (36 years old) in the crash. We know she didn’t, but how long did she live (and in freedom)?

Did Shaw try to escape and was the one who crash landed the juggernaut? It’s a good theory but the problem with it is that she had living quarters in the juggernaut as well (with wooden furniture and paper made from wood from the forest around them). She lived there for quite some time. Walter notes that the juggernaut didn't crash but landed, but it might have been shot down (engineer defence)?

Although I agree that it sounds feasible that Shaw would try to escape from an increasingly crazy synthetic, how do you explain her dwelling in the juggernaut, filled with fabricated things by using the surrounding environment? They must have learned how to make pulp etc. If Shaw crashed, survived and lived there by herself, wouldn't David have found her right away?

“Take Me Home, Country Roads” is probably what Shaw wants (but she also wants answers), but that doesn’t necessarily mean that she tries to escape from David? A distress signal is sent and she hopes that someone will pick up the signal and take them away from there?

The stuffed bipeds in the lab are xenos (or perhaps deacons?) and neos. How could David create them when there were no hosts in sight? David could recreate the xeno, but needed victims (like Oram). But as you point out, he compares the birth from a human with that from an engineer. In that case, there must have been engineers still living after the Holocaust?

Good comparison with “Misery” and the need to control (and keep). Did you notice the allusion to M.R James’ ghost story when, as Walter is playing the flute, David playfully remarks: “Whistle, and I’ll come”?

That was sure some cool source !!

There are far too many consistencies for it to be unreliable. Whoever it was shared some very trusted information with you. I have to take it all on board. Indeed if you do have the Xeno explanations I would love to read them when you have time.

The creations theme lead me to believe the Engineers were themselves a creation. I thought that the way the Engineer looks at David before ripping of his head was a major clue. The look he gives him, to me looks like symphathy and empathy. As if to say "I know I know how it is" then rips his head off.

Also my thoughts were that a factor of these creations grew tired of endless space travel and checking on planets for the elders. It maybe got to a point where these creations grew tired of giving their lives in order of creation and so a stand off or war began. It was these Engineers on LV223 who were a part of that.

This also fits with what you were told and about the Fallen Angels and stolen Green Shard. It could be these Engineers who were responsible ????

Im having a further look over these later as so much seems to be posed with these findings.

Thanks

I'd say that without a doubt, the two scenes are identical. I was under the impression that backdrop in the white Weyland room was a window. I took this to mean that Prometheus was the seeding of earth and Weyland's building was also on earth.

Or even better, maybe it was just to relate the sacrifice scene of Engineers being creators of life at this location, with the Weyland scene being in the same location the seeding took place, but now it is Weyland who is the creator. Since the scene is has to do with him being the creator of David.

@BigDave

"My point about the first door, was that if she ever came back up to look into the ship, then how the Lifeboat had crashed i think with the door closed she would have a hard time getting to stand up on the out side and peer through that door and then to peer through this window and the 2nd one considering the gap between the two i think she would have a hard time seeing what is past the 2nd Airlock Door."

Still not sure I am following you, as the first door (outer airlock door) was open when she left. She can walk right into the airlock without opening any door and look through the window.

Or are you talking about the inner door, which is actually two doors with the windows on each about a foot apart? If you watch the movie closely, each of those doors has its own entry keypad, so she can open them independently.

"And so i ASSUMED after she leaves this door will close because it had done so after she had entered it the first time"

Actually, she closed the outer airlock door when she entered the first time. It did not close on its own. In the full deleted scene, when the Engineer entered through the second airlock door (the double doors) it closes after him. When Shaw went through the inner airlock door as the was leaving, it auto closed behind her, as you pointed out. When she jumped out the outer door, the shot stays on that door for a second. It was not closing. It seems they do not close automatically unless someone pushes the right button, other than the inner airlock door.

"As far as the Image goes that i posted indeed, i assumed it was from inside the ship past the Main Room, it seems similar to some of the corridors we see Vickers in during the movie."

I found the movie set layout. Much clearer on this one. Bottom arrow is Shaw's path when she first entered and the top arrow is the way the Engineer entered. In the full deleted scene he chased Shaw through that upper hall.

There were also storage lockers in the airlock where she could have gathered supplies from, without even entering the main room. We saw oxygen and an axe in the movie, so presumably anything needed for an excursion outside the lifepod would have been stored there. There was also one of the 8 wheeled EVA vehicles left at the pyramind, probably lots of useful gear and supplies in that too.

Here are a few screen grabs from the crossing. The tools and bottles are clearly not Engineer manufacture. If this is a maintenance/repair kit for a synthetic, that would have been inside the Prometheus or the lifepod. The lifepod was originally meant for Weyland, not Vickers. Since David was his son/servant, it would make sense if his maintenance gear was in there.

It's all speculation, of course. Interestingly, in Lindelof's script, it does say Shaw pulls everything she can out of an emergency cabinet as the Engineer and trilobite are fighting. She watches the trilobite incapacitate the Engineer, then leaves.

@Bigdave 

Thanks for your response. The docking ship indeed the entire way the flashback in the movie is explained, as you can imagine in prose is quite different. Its much more about how he tells his lies and absolves himself from responsibility. You do not get a descriptive prose version of what we see in the movie.

As to her singing take me home country roads as she is trying to escape, for me full of nerves and wondering whether she can pull it off I could see her singing the song as a way of geeing herself up letting off nervous tension. 

Why it works well for me is it fits perfectly with David and how at crucial junctures he snaps into a judgement. His super fast programming allowing him to make the tea for Sir Peter (passive), whilst recognising within seconds he is immortal and Peter is not, suppressing his really superior aggressive feelings, a point that Ridley makes well in an interview. Within seconds he has made a judgement about his creator. 

It applies to all of his responses where he is picked on. Ok Charlie I am not a real boy but lets see what happens if I spike your drink you arrogant little git, who will do anything for his answers (the perfect passive/aggressive response).

With Elizabeth, whom he came to love, like movies like Misery once the protagonist tries to leave and is unsuccessful in order to dominate, retain and control of their victim, the antagonist will descend into humiliation and overt control. To experiment on Elizabeth after she proved "so disappointing" makes perfect sense of his previous behaviour and that of a coercive controller. Like Misery his humiliation is in the view of the humiliator a bizarre warped expression of their love and care for the victim.

Two other matters are noted in the novel :-

1) There a number of bipeds in the laboratory. They suggest a "missing link" morph between the Deacon and the XXX121 had already been achieved in the ten years by David. As well as a chilling description of an insect forerunner version of the lifecycle which David boasts of creating. 

2) When the burster emerges from Oram David notes it makes much collateral damage of a human host as opposed to an Engineer host which is so much bigger, which intriguingly suggests David has seen an Engineer burst previously.  

The novel hints and suggests David had achieved a great deal during his ten years which makes the "I found this one lying around" feel on second reading even more incongruous other than to put Oram at ease. He also describes the Eggs in the cave as immature and offers him an ointment which suppresses the odours of the Eggs and is vaguely intoxicating, all of these points  trying to disarm Oram.

Well this source had mentioned over 2.5 years ago about the next movie will have TWO Monsters, both related to the Xenomorph but different, and one with Transparent Skin to a degree.  They also implied more than One David. 

And that Dr Shaw plays a Small but important Role and Technically would not be dead.....     They also said Concept work showed a Human Figure connected to a Bio-Mechanical Machine of Sorts  and that it looked like a HR Giger Take on the Superman 3 Robot Girl Scene....   Low and behold 2.5 years latter and Concept works match this.

Regarding the Xenomorph..... it was vague but they said that in order to RE-CREATE it all you needed was the Tools and Knowledge and David has both, now is this the Deacon? or Xenomorph?

They claimed that we will not see any Xenomorphs but clues would be there to show us how the Xenomorphs came to be, and the TWO Monsters... One is a Creation by David, and so the other is either a past event or from something David did not directly have his hands in...   Now its Ambiguous because the Sources way they put this was..  there are TWO Monsters, both related to the Xenomorph, both different and one David has a direct role in its creation.

One Monster is like the Ultramorph/Necronom 4 and the other is a Fresh Take on the Original Designs... now the Original Design was Necronom 4, so how can it be two of these, but they could have refereed to HR Gigers other designs for Alien.

They did say and they are ambiguous so only gave jigsaw pieces, that One Monster will have Translucent Pale Skin, the other would be more closer to the Traditional,  One Monster has the Xenomorph Pipe/Tubes and the other has Spikes, One Monster has a more Elongated Head compared to the Xenomorph and the other has a more Bulbous Head, One Monster will have similar jaw features to the Xenomorph and the other would be different.

They also mentioned that with regards to Paradise Lost, that without SIN there would be no Xenomorph... now is this Sin as in to go against the Will/Wishes of God and then resulting Punishment?  Or SIN as in Satans Daughter who was punished to constantly being in Labor giving Birth to the Hounds of Hell who daily are Born and Rip at her Entrails (similar to Prometheus Punishment) .. now SIN is depicted as Half Human and Half Serpent.

The source does seem to indicate the Prometheus Punishment is connected.

I cant figure out if they mean some Engineers were Punished with a Parasite or Similar Organism....   of if their Punishment is from Hubris of using Forbidden Knowledge or Stolen Knowledge.

It appears they hint the Green Crystal in Prometheus was Stolen from Paradise from the Obelisk which is where the Sacrificial Goo comes from and these Engineers who Stole it and used it against the wishes of those who created it or in a way not intended... Eventually become infected with some mishap.

Now the Source did mention the LV-223 Outbreak being similar to the Movie the FLY.... where a Benevolent Experiment can lead to disastrous Results.

This was the Fly getting into the Teleporter with the Human to make a Hybrid... now the only way this connects to LV-223 would be that something had contaminated the Sacrificial Goo, something had been in contact with it and its DNA then leads to a Hybrid.

They did prior to AC, well October 2016 spill some more beans regarding the Xeno Origin as a Parasitic Life Form which i can explain if you wish.

But indeed from the clues they give .. which they never gave direct answers only clues, it leads to me to think the Engineers took it upon themselves to Engineer themselves to the point of losing the ability to Procreate and had to then Clone themselves and Produce Genetically Modified Clones for a Purpose and so in effect the LV-223 Engineers are just Bio-Logical David 8's

They also seemed to point me in the direction that something happens to Dr Shaw where she is connected to something and used for her Eggs to create Hybrids that lead to Organisms similar to the Xenomorph.  Maybe even eventually becoming some kind of Hybrid.

Its funny enough some of the Concept team and done designs showing a more hybrid Dr Shaw... so these may had been ideas that was then abandoned.

I think the Engineers are expensive to portray if we go the whole LV-223 Suited guys...

The Sacrificial Engineers scene would be cheaper for sure, and those Alien Covenant guys very inexpensive.

I think for FOX to commit to this depends on how they would feel it would make $$$$ and how the next movie is received as far as Praises for the Engineers and seeing Sites like this and how the Fans wanted to see more about them.

It was Fans Reception of Prometheus and the lack of Xenomorph Clues and related Monsters that prompted FOX to introduce them in Alien Covenant.  So Fan Power can go a long way.

I think they need to look at the criticisms of Alien Covenant and right now, a majority of fans would be disappointed if the Derelict ends up being a ship that is piloted by a Human or Synthetic.

The ever shrinking Engineers bugs some people, and so explaining the 15ft Space Jockey as Human/Synthetic could be a stretch.

But having the Space Jockey being a 15ft Race would work, and the only way to do this ideally without being a Ancient Event (which we have to ask how does Davids Eggs get on board). But they could go that route... David plants them on that ship as a Trap!

But a more ideal route would be to introduce a Race above the Engineers/beings on Paradise who are more closer to the 13-15ft Space Jockey and have one of them Ultimately become the Space Jockey in Alien.

I do think with RS comments about the Engineers returning to find Planet 4 destroyed as far as their Civilization is a Big Clue that eventually RS is going to for the route that some beings related to the Engineers eventually end up with a Cargo of Davids Creations.

And so yes i think we will see the Engineers or related covered a bit, i just dont think it will go into massive detail, just as none of the Alien Movies included Prometheus and Alien Covenant have never gone into detail about the Weyland-Yutani company and Merger and why etc.

@chli

Indeed thats a great point and a nice break down, i did consider the time gap and so it had to be 4-5 days when we discussed this before, including 4-5 years ago.

The Time-Line to AC as you pointed out indeed means they could have been on Paradise for up to 10 years as nearly 11 years passed from Jan 1st 2094 to December 2104

I do find it hard to believe the Juggernaught would take a year though, not when we consider the Covenant had taken 7 weeks from its location after the Neutrino Burst, we dont know how far the Covenant has traveled but due to the Weyland-Yutani Merger it would be no more than 5 years and 7 weeks away from Paradise to Earth's System and so i would think the Engineers ships can travel more than 5X the Speed of the Covenant.

I think Dr Shaws Hair is the Big Clue, regardless if she remained on LV-223 before David was put back together and then they left, or if they left while he was in two pieces but they could not head to Paradise until Dr Shaw put him back together (which i think makes more sense as far as avoid Plot Holes).

She clearly had some time to think about putting David back together, i think this adds up with RS comments how he had said before AC that Saw will SLOWLY put David back together again, this seemed a very odd comment, how does she slowly repair him?

Does it take her a while to perform this task, and again how long is slowly, hours, days?   Well now we have THE CROSSING and seeing Dr Shaws Hair Growth we can clearly see the Slowly part must refer to her having to take some time to consider putting him back together and so they would interact for a number of Months while David has to persuade to Shaw that he would be NO HARM to her and after a Period of months i would say at least 6 she FINALLY felt Safe to put him back together,  i think when we look at the Bond in the Crossing it appears considering the end of Prometheus that this Bond had taken more than days to reach.

The Next thing is when David puts Dr Shaw in cryo-sleep we really dont know what he gets up to, he could head right to Paradise, but i think he has been lying to Dr Shaw as he does with the Crew, both in the Movie and Novel.

Clearly the Ship did not Auto-Pilot to Paradise, i think indeed it could be set to do so, but i dont think its a case of no soon as that ship leaves LV-223 it then automatically goes to Paradise, would it not go to Earth?  or where ever the Target was for that Ship.

So its quite open for David to go any other place in the mean time, but this is a area of pure speculation where we have no real Solid Proof her did.  I guess a lot comes from how he Learned their Ways.

Is there enough he could learn from the Juggernaught?  And we have to try and look at it from Davids point of view, a very curious Robot he was and he was fascinated with the Engineers Technology and no doubt he would want to learn more about what as that Outpost all about.

So did he already know enough before Dr Shaw recovered his Body?  Would he know enough from that Juggernauts systems, or what he finds out when combined with what he already knows.. gives him the answers he needed.

Or would he be tempted to check out the other temples?

@Kethol

Indeed this is kind of the points i was trying to make, if Dr Shaw peered through the 2nd Airlock leading to the Main Vickers Suite she would indeed and as i was trying to point out, she would only see what is in that room and what would appear at the Door Way to the other Rooms, anything a few feet into those rooms would not be seen from the other side of the Airlock 2nd door, the best view would be up close rather than a bit further away trying to peer through both windows.

My point about the first door, was that if she ever came back up to look into the ship, then how the Lifeboat had crashed i think with the door closed she would have a hard time getting to stand up on the out side and peer through that door and then to peer through this window and the 2nd one considering the gap between the two i think she would have a hard time seeing what is past the 2nd Airlock Door.

I see your point as far as this Door was open, which i also mentioned in another post, that this Door was closed after the Engineer Entered... Dr Shaw had to open both these Doors and the first one had closed afterwards and the only time she peered back was as she went through this door.  She then had to open the main Entrance Airlock Door and jumped down..   And so i ASSUMED after she leaves this door will close because it had done so after she had entered it the first time and after the Engineer entered unless he came in from another place, which i doubt.     But there is not 100% way to see if this Outer Airlock Door had closed after she jumped out as we dont get any shots of the door.

As far as the Image goes that i posted indeed, i assumed it was from inside the ship past the Main Room, it seems similar to some of the corridors we see Vickers in during the movie.

And so indeed the Full Scenes would no doubt cover more of the lay out and show where this was, as you clearly pointed out.  I was going by what limitations the Threatrical Cut showed.

Where Editing makes things not go as smooth, one example is as soon as she is free from the Trilobite and leaves that area she grabs her Helmet and it seems this was located much closer to where the Trilobite/Engineer was... due to cutting but the actual full scene would show that she had to leave that area and then go up to the Bar which is where she left her stuff while she had a drink of Vodka etc

I have not seen the Full Deleted Scenes for a while and so details on the door lay outs are sketchy but jogging my Memory indeed its as you suggested and the corridor area beyond the Main Room that leads to the Med-Bay is larger than it appears in the Theatrical Cut because they cut down a lot of the sequence.

I still think Dr Shaw just wanted to get out ASP, and we see her only peer back once (not sure how many times in the Deleted Scenes) but i would assume she did not catch the point where the Trilobite got the upper hand and then Implanted its Embryo etc.

And once she went past the Airlock Door and then outside i dont think she would be able to look inside and spot anything in the main room unless she climbed up back into the Airlock and had a peek.   Which she did not...  But the Topic is about the Crossing and so potentially she could return and then have a peek into the Main Room and watch for a little while and not spot the Engineer and Trilobite... which we can only assume then she may decide to have a closer look and Spot they appear to both be dead and then used this time to get what ever supplies she needed.

I think the fun part is speculating to cover any potential flaws, and so its more likely that Dr Shaw would have needed supplies and while some could be salvaged outside, i think its more logical that a lot was also inside the Life Boat and so after not seeing the Engineer come after her... i would assume she thinks the Engineer was killed by the Trilobite and she may think the Trilobite cant open Doors or else it would have escaped before, and so i think she would enter the Lifeboat and peer through the window and check it out for a while.... then not seeing no signs of either the Trilobite or Engineer, she would then take the Chance (maybe David reassured her) that its seems they are both incapacitated, and so if she then went into the Room and looked into the Corridor that had the Engineer and Trilobite she would then notice they are Motionless, and at this point she may think they both died... i dont think she would know the purpose of the Trilobite and so she would feel more at ease to have the confidence to go and get supplies.

I would then assume when she heads off to the other Temple, that the Deacon has no Chest Busted yet and has a longer Gestation Cycle.

AdamPD - 

I too get addicted to the same shows (amongst other things in life) and always feel that if it is something I really like then it is bound to be cut because it wont fit the mainstream. It is terrible when a show gets cancelled.

About the Engineers, I think Fox made a mistake backing away from them. Now they will feel a backlash with every review slating A:Cs U-Turn. 

So i guess we will get more, even if it is only down to Fox pandering to the crowd. But anything is better than the nothing we got from A:C (scraps aside plz)

Now it is such an interesting story that someone else is going to tell it with their own characters and slant on it. 

Fox cant do an Engineers film as it will be slated as a complete U-Turn and then battered because that no one likes them, they are useless (going on current evidence) And it will be easy pickings for the YT influence.

HOWEVER -

How about an 8 part TV series spin off ? 

That IMO would be given more of a chance especially if they go the Legion route and make it an 18 Certificate ??

@Batchpool

I also agree that they surely cant leave the Engineers out after investing Prometheus to introduce them, i will have to agree with ali81 and not to expect to much as far as their history etc.

I think they will return at some point and RS comments regarding them being one of the Key Players in the next movie is interesting, i wonder if this means we would see some of them return to a devastated Paradise/Planet 4 or if we just see them arrive and intercept David where we get a bit of clues to how they arrived there (found Planet 4 was decimated)

I am just not sure we will ever see too much answers as far as their whole Culture and Purpose, and so not a movie about the Engineers, as far as like dedicating more than 30 Minutes to them as far as any such answers regarding their history and culture.

I certainly think these could be explored in a Book/Comic and if the Engineers are well received in the next few movies and they do release a book that covers them more and this does well.

Then down the line maybe FOX would fund a movie that covers them more, but i am not so sure at the moment because i feel they have lacked some confidence and commitment to the Franchise  and by that how Alien Covenant had a 25% less Budget than Prometheus and thats not taking into account inflation and so the same level of Financial Commitment would have required a good $45M extra.

@I Moon Girl I agree about alien isolation---just never got scary for me, and was way too tedious. You want scary? Try Outlast (or outlast 2, it's fairly new and I haven't tried that one yet, but its gotten decent reviews and seems to carry on the "scariness").

I have almost pulled the trigger on the Last of Us, but just haven't yet, so I'll have to give that one a try, as I know it is supposed to be supremely scary as well, and apparently you feel it is too!

BUT, try Outlast, if you haven't yet! Turn the lights off and put on headphones...but don't say you weren't warned, lol!

The Engineers will probably hug David again after the planet 4 events.

@AdamPD - The question you ask is the reason I am here every day!  We do need an Engineer-involved movie sooner than later!

My two cents, and as far as I know no-one has mentioned this possibility as-of-yet...

It is my belief that David has used the crashed Juggernaut on Paradise periodically over his ten years there to check for passing traffic. Upon picking up the Covenant passing nearby I believe David instigated the neutrino burst that incapacitated the Covenant and activated Shaw's beacon, thus luring the crew of the Covenant to him as a means of escaping the planet. How David triggered a neutrino burst is beyond me, but his Juggernaut, while grounded was seemingly operational. The fact that the crew was there, suggest his lure worked and as such, they had found the crashed Juggernaut with it being the source of Shaw's beacon.

Further to everyone else's comments, I feel David assumed or knew via "company protocol" that Oram was most likely a scientist, as a team of scientists would make for better colonists, logically speaking.

Hey BigDave !!

Thanks for taking the time out for that. It is a great list and it had so many connections with Prometheus and with what ended up being A:C  (rather than P2).

The green shard in the Obelisk reminds me of Jon.S A:E script. Also the mention of it being a loose link to "The Forbidden Fruit" or knowledge which when gained leads to their downfall seems to fit in rather well too.

Even Mankind being closer to the Xeno than the Engineers. We could say that is down to David. Even if it is only a refined version this still can fit.

The Engineers are closer to David than mankind could suggest that my opening theory on here where the "Engineers 223 / Sacrificial" are CREATIONS of The Elders or of The Hierarchy above them. This would mean that "The Elders" are nothing but CREATIONS themselves. Which again leans towards the multi-layers of the creation theme.

The Goo is a powerful tool for everything - Now considering the debates on how the goo works and what some called inconsistencies, this could explain it all away. 

The source mentions that there may of been statues of Engineers, those who look LIKE Engineers and some non humanoid looking statues. You never know maybe when the BR drops we can examine the screen further and we could look for such statues. I think it is very possible we could find something? 

Im not saying your source is 100% but it looks like a very credible source with insight on some level. Then we consider the changes which are made after the fact.

Either way it is a great list and something i will be examining further later !!

Thanks ;)

Walter would have to had to either downloaded David. Why would david make the exact same cut on his face as walter? There would have been no need for it as no one was there during the fight when walter got cut

from the perspective of getting more historical info into the connecting between the engineer and xeno, what happened to their society and are they spread through out the galaxy, I doubt it. I think itl just be a flashback as to why david did what he did on planet 4. the potential is endless for the engineers but im not holding out much hope of them reaching their potential in the movies

the main area directly after the airlock is where the enigineer and trilobite are as shown. in the movie the trilobite leaves the med pod room as when it incapacitates the engineer, who never entered the med pod room, falls backwards so they are both in the open area directly adjacent to the air lock. yes they both die but shaw doesn't know this, she ran and doesn't see the conclusion of the fight so again, why risk it? from her perspective she has left 2 huge and highly aggressive species in there fighting it out and im sure she doesn't want to risk dealing with either of them, especially after it would be logical for her to believe there would be a winner and therefor she wouldn't have much chance against who ever won that epic battle.

According to “The Alien Universe Timeline” (Canon?), they arrived on LV-223 in the morning of December 25, 2093, and David and Shaw left the planet on January 1, 2094. Shaw’s “daughter” impregnated the engineer (and Shaw fetched the parts of David) in the afternoon of December 26.

This gives Shaw and David 5 days to prepare the journey to the Engineers’ homeworld. The Deacon must then have a longer gestation period (which many of you have suggested) than neomorphs, xenomorphs and protomorphs (more than 5 days).

David and Shaw left LV-223 on January 1, 2094, and arrived on Planet 4 in December 2094. The journey would then have taken just under a year.

The Covenant arrives on Planet 4 on December 26, 2104. This would mean that David has spent 10 years on the engineer homeworld.

Alien Covenant has certainly taken some knocks from critics from all angles, but has still managed to pull out of the hat a decent amount of takings that will see another instalment. Despite all the negative comments I have seen I am still a believer in the overall project. For starters , The Crossing imo opinion was something of a teaser, and has suggested a back story about the Engineers, which by the way has not gone into novelisation. No one seems to be questioning this fact. Also, why go into all the trouble of creating an Engineer mythology, so to speak, for nothing.

There is a massive storyline gap that has not been told in any shape, size or form. I think this all has to reach a point of resolution. I reckon that the Engineer back story will re-appear, because there are too many clues and references for it not to. There is just too big a gap. I think part of the problem is that The Crossing was intended to be much longer, but has been reduced down to a viral. I believe this demands to be re –visited.

Ridley has a habit of making movies that can be stand alone, and in order for the next movie to work, especially if he wants to go down the war route, then there has to be a background given, and not just David wiping out a colony without any real justification other than him being insane, which I don’t actually believe. I think the insanity angle is only really being played for the marketing purposes of AC. There has to be more to the logic of David’s actions than just saying he is mad, or in need of some updates.

AC is a bridge to the next movie, and as such I am not disappointed in what we have got up to now. I really could not care less about any negative thoughts at this point. This is a long project (which it was always intended to be) and the crescendo of war may be the answer to what all fans are seeking.

"i would assume for sure that if you peered from this window you would likely not see what is inside the area where you marked Shaw as heading from."

How would she see around a corner? She would only see the main room and the open doorway to the med pod hallway, and the open doorway immediately to the right as you walk in the main room, which also connects directly to the med pod hallway.

"Also the distance between the inner door and outer door is a god 10ft or more.. maybe 15ft?  i think its between 10-15ft foot and then with the outer door closed she would have no place to stand"

I am not following you. The outer airlock door was NOT closed.

"So i think the only way she would be able to check out if the Trillobite or Engineer had left the room would be to enter the Lifeboat and peer through the 2nd Airlock Door which you circled above and i am not sure she would have a clear view of what lies behind the door area where the Corridor to the Med-Pod is."

Through that inner airlock door window - actually two, as it is a double door, each with a control panel - she would only have a view of the entire main room and the two open doorways I mentioned above.

"I think a interesting thing is the effects of the Edits to the movie and what we get, as this image i found on the internet shows the Engineer Entering some part of the Lifeboat before he attacks."

That view is from the full deleted scene. It's the same door he appears from in the theatrical cut, this is just the reverse view. The little area the trilobite attacks the Engineer in has four doors. The big one from the main room, the one to the med bay, an unidentified door, and this one, which is the doorway to the short hall the Engineer chases Shaw through in the uncut scene.

If you walk into the main room from the airlock, immediately on the right is another large doorway. Walk in that small area and there is a short hallway to the left that goes directly to the small area the trilobite attacked the Engineer in. It has a malfunctioning door that keeps opening and closing. Watch the deleted scene and you can see the layout clearly.

Oh dear....

How Tempting is it to Purchase the Australian on now...

Mind you i am not sure my Blu-ray players are Multi-Region?

i know the DVD is different one... like Region 4 and UK is 2

I do wonder if FOX feel that exploring these themes and Mythos too deep is a distraction from the Main Focus which was the Xenomorph....  the Prequels set out to cover the Xenomorph Origins... something which the first did not do enough and the 2nd movie attempted to do.

The other unknown from Alien was the Space Jockey Race, and they did try and cover them, but the Plot was so Bold, Gods, Creation etc etc... that i feel FOX has felt that at the start this was a interesting route to take as the Xenomorph had been done over and over and so this was FRESH!

To now thinking maybe going the whole Engineer Back Story route is a distraction from the Alien Franchise.

I think and hope we can learn a bit more about the Engineers and what role they played, why we was created, who created them etc... But i think we will get some answers... i do not think we would be going to deep into them.

Maybe FOX feel Ripleys Origins are more important? I hope not...

I do think for sure FOX will give us more about the Engineers as far as a Novel goes, but as far as the Movies go, i think the emphasis is on the Xenomorph and David/AI but indeed the Engineers are a key to this and so its the Weyland-Yutani Company.

But i do think FOX feel Ripley is more higher up the ladder than some of these Elements...

@originaldarthnugget

Indeed, this is something i have covered a number of times and one of the Big Themes at play, which is that We are what we are, and no soon as we try and Perfect Ourselves Experiment on ourselves and even try and create our own creations... Playing God in effect...  will Ultimately and Eventually Bite us in the Butt...   Hubris can be a  wicked fate.

Its a theme we have seen in Terminator and The Matrix and i think this the the Big Theme at play with Prometheus where they mix this with Gods Mythos and Creation.

So if we continue this route... then it maybe has to lead to Davids Creations Ultimately being his undoing...

As for the other replies, i think people are raising some good points and i agree a lot with Michelle. and as far as BioDegradable goes some very good points also.

I am not so sure on the Ants though... i think to the Engineers we are just Ants... but to David who knows, i think yes Ants are insignificant to us.. But not if they propose a Problem for us.

If we have a Agenda, a Plan a Goal and Ants are going to get in the way of this... so say if you Plan to Build a Building and Ant are becoming a Plague and Nuisance that affects your plans.. Its at this point they are very relevant and then you have to go about bringing out the Pesticide.

I think i made my points regarding Reasons for David Hating us, so i dont think i need to touch upon it again... i will say that we have to not take RS comments as Facts and Face Value, while RS says David Hates us.... we have to remember what RS can be like, and so i think indeed David dislikes Mankind and has problems with us.... but HATE?  Thats a Powerful Word and Emotion.... and i think there are various levels of Hatred which dislike can be the minor version and right to a very Bitter Hatred but who knows how much David Hates us and the Engineers.

In Spain is also 13 of september like France, I think It is "early" with other films I waited about 6 months