Space Jockeys, Aliens and a whole lot of confusion

Prenihility

MemberOvomorphApril 13, 20121458 Views12 Replies

Alright, now... Before I start... PLEASE, all you Alien franchise lovers, don't freak out when i say what I’m about to say (you'll know exactly what i mean when you read those specific words). Ever since i laid eyes on the Space Jockey in the original film, i guess i was one of the few people who ever questioned it, and realized that it was clearly there for a reason, was of significance, and that it meant something important for the Alien franchise. So Prometheus is a very important movie, of course, which means on a scale of 1-10, my excitement level is at a 25! The original , to be honest, was the only film that was of importance, since it was the first; the introduction to this entire series' universe. The ones to follow (ok, I’ll give Aliens some credit, because it's not like they pretended Alien never happened) were pretty much pointless. They were just excuses for Xenomorphs to kill folks... Especially Alien 3 (my god, that was pointless). Practically a horror movie, with everyone getting killed off one at a time. If you seriously review every movie post Alien, and really think about it, where did the story go? What was the point!? In the end, in MY opinion, the only good thing we got was Ripley's character development in Resurrection... I only wish she could make a return, and the story could move along with her after we learn what we need to learn in Prometheus (wishful thinking, but i really think there's much potential for the character of Ripley). Now, which leads me to a...Well, pretty unrelated question, and hopefully some answers from Alien fans and what they think; Predators. Now i just have throw this in here; in a HUGE fan of Predators :). Love those things. But im not going to go ahead and talk about MY view on Predators in the Alien universe, i want that answer from you guys. Do they belong in the SAME universe? Or do you think the Aliens sort of just made a cameo (an unnecessary one at that; due to the aftermath) just for the hell of it, and it spawned Aliens vs Predator, and cross-cameos, if you will, between both characters/creatures? Should it be official? The Predators and Aliens are BOTH in the SAME fictional universe? Or has it just blown out of proportion? Yes, quite a few questions, but i want to hear what you folks have to say! So please, bring your answers. Going back to my view on things, i believe that they SHOULD, JUST based on Ripley. Now why, you ask? Well, because i believe that Prometheus is giving us the answers and story we should have been given, or at least given a vague blueprint of it in subsequent Alien films after the original; then Prometheus could have followed with the definitive completion of the Alien story. Not the ENTIRE story, rather, lay down the foundation for what the Aliens are all about, what their significance is, and why these movies have been focusing on them, and them alone. Lastly, my previous paragraph in this giant wall of text coincides with what i'm about to say. ...In the end, ask yourself... Is there much they CAN even do just continuing to solely focus on the Xenomorphs alone? I think it will just result in more horror-like Sci-fi ala Alien 3/Resurrection... The Space Jockeys are in the game now... I’m excited as all hell, and i can't wait to see them, it...Whatever, hopefully multiple examples of them, but i won't complain. I mean think about it: **SPOILER WARNING; just in case, i don't want to get people angry, although it's...Pretty obvious, and, not a secret/surprise anymore, or at least i believe so ** These are the beings that created the Xenos... The things of nightmares, that scared the living CRAP out of audiences in 1979, and sure as hell STILL does. Which in turn makes each and every one of them worthy of carrying "Bad Motherf***er" wallets. Lastly, one final question in this behemoth post (if you've read this far, BAHAHAHAH!) Based upon the aforementioned, does this necessarily mean the Space Jockeys are Evil and/or immoral, simply put: Do you perceive them to be the bad guys, here? Or will you wait to make judgments until after you've watched the film, or perhaps until the sequel (im considering it set in stone, i don't care hehe...) or other official/canon content that instill what the Space Jockeys are all about, and delves deeper into them in general? Sorry i couldn't fit all that into a couple of paragraphs, folks. It was the only way i could get that out. I have a lot on my mind in regards to Prometheus/Alien.

Ashmodean
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April 13, 2012

Personally I feel that putting Predators in the Alien universe sort of turns it into a Godzilla style "battle of the monsters". Not to say it couldn't be entertaining if done right (stop teaming the predator up with the humans) it's just not scary. Also remember that it's Aliens vs Predator not Alien vs Predator. It's based on James Camerons vision and therefore doesn't exist. Just like unobtainium.

BigDave
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April 13, 2012

First of all, i think Aliens made sence they expanded on the Alien idea and turned the Thriller into a Action Movie. Had we gone the route of the Xeno catching its victims and then turning them into Eggs like in the deleted scenes of Alien, i think the franchise would not have gone far it would have got a bit bland. So the Aliens take was a good one and i think was better than the Orignal, thats just my oppinion. As far as Alien 3 it could have been done better, but it made sence, the only thing that did not make sence as much was how did the Face Huggers get on board? Maybe the Company already had them on board. The idea that the Xeno embrio Organism infects its host and then takes on a mix of its DNA and its host is also a very good idea. Alien Resurection was pants... the action was fine, but so was the AVPs its just the Story made no sence. Ok hear me out..... if you came across DNA of a Poroxide Blond say Angelina Jolies DNA taken from when she was filming Gone in 60 seconds. And you cloned her the clone would not come out with Blond Hair, just like if you got the DNA of someone who had a nose job, the Clone would have the original nose and not the new one. Lastly if you took the DNA of a pregnant person and cloned them, i cant see how that clone would then be pregnant. Alien Resurection could have made sence if they cloned Ripley and also Alien DNA found and spliced the pair together, but the whole idea of cloning her while she was carrying a chest burster Queen before she died and thus her DNA was infected with Alien DNA is a little odd. I can understand how Ripley may have come out, but the whole clone DNA and being able to also have her cloned with the Alien Queen makes no sence. I also dont think Ripley could be in another movie, it would be pants how do you explain that? Especially a prequal... Its ok for Arnie to Apear in any future Terminators because he was a Robot Cyborg. AVP could have worked if it had been done in the same Time Line. A bigger budget, bring in Cameron on board and set it during or after Alien 3 and it could have worked very well. This movie (Prometheus) could be a risk, especially if we are going for a reboot. Ridley is a great director but he is a little arogant and if he had a idea of how he wanted Alien to go before Aliens, i would not put it past him trying to reboot the franchise and thus make a joke of Aliens etc. Its a risk as this movie could be the one with Egg on its Face.... or should that be Facehugger?

R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

BigDave
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April 13, 2012

I think the movie could be a hit.... But depending how it goes, it could be a risk... if its a reboot. The Xeno is one of the if not the most iconic Alien creations, and Aliens did help to put it and its Evolution/Life Cycle on the Map. Ok the Story behind the AVP movies that being 21st century does make the movie not tie in with Aliens and thats maybe the main gripe with its critics. But even so the Xeno was still awsome.... If Ridley goes the route that then means the idea of a Queen and how the Aliens act in Aliens and Alien 3 is all just BS, well what good would that do for the orginal franchise. some are a fan of the orignal movie, because it invented the lifeform the movie was a thriller and well done. But surely everyone could see that this Organism if it got to a large populated place and we saw say 20 people get face huggered, the resulting Aliens would more likely go on a Killing Spree. As Ridley did sugest this Organism was a Bio Weapon, with one Purpose to wipe out and clean out a Civilisation. I think the movie is best to explain that the Bioformer Technology creates one Organism in this movie that then leads to what was in Alien and Aliens etc. And then also leave open for other uses of that Bioformer to create other different Organisms that then Ridley can use to create a new franchise and not have him reboot the Alien one.

R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Guest
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April 13, 2012

To be honest, I really struggled to find your actual point in this. If it's do with "should Alien and Predator belong in the same Universe" - I say,"No". Neither, speaking personally, do I see how the answer could be otherwise, nor am I even sure how the question can arise in the first place. We get diminishing creative returns in both stories after 'Aliens' and after 'Predator'. A fact which didn't go unnoticed by whoever decided to mash them together in order to reap that cash that fell out: that's Life - and it's very clever financial planning and an example of why some Studio Executives live better than Kings. I applaud it from that perspective, it's a Masterclass. However, that mashing together was only possible because of the distinct divergence that the whole Alien concept took, under Cameron - the Alien became a dumb infestation, something to be eradicated like an egg-happy roach etc, etc: then, we have a spare, lizard-faced hunter around the place, with nothing to hunt apart from humans, when [i]that[/i] cat-and-mouse had already gotten stale before the credits ran on Predator 2. Perfect. The coincidence of Alien and Predator was a financially expedient opportunity that was exploited only because the opportunity was there - and that was only because the Alien had been [i]immediately[/i] devalued in it's sequel. I say the Entities don't, naturally, belong together, sit well with each other and they are actually mutually unnecessary: the Alien story, told as it should be, (or should have been), doesn't actually need a Predator or anything else to give it purpose or meaning - [in that Universe, if anything, it's the Predator that should be concerned]. Predator might well have had it's own depth, but it was lazily dealt with, taking advantage of the undermined Alien story - ultimately, this made money but, creatively, it did neither of them any good. The concepts involved in the Alien story have such a maturity of psychology and depth that the story is, (and would have been), self-sustaining and not requiring the services of a Space Viking. There is more than enough in the undiluted Alien Universe that can provide us something to really worry - and think - about.

allinamberclad
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April 13, 2012

To be honest, I really struggled to find your actual point in all this. If it's do with, "Should Alien and Predator belong in the same Universe" - I say,"No". Neither, speaking personally, do I see how the answer could be otherwise, nor am I even sure how the question can arise in the first place. We get diminishing creative returns in both stories after 'Aliens' and after 'Predator' - a fact which didn't go unnoticed by whoever decided to mash them together in order to reap that cash that fell out: that's Life - and it's very clever financial planning and an example of why some Studio Executives live better than Kings. I applaud it from that perspective, it's a Masterclass. However, that mashing together was only possible because of the distinct divergence that the whole Alien concept took, under Cameron - the Alien became a dumb infestation, something to be eradicated. An egg-laying Roach etc, etc, etc: then, we have a spare, lizard-faced hunter around the place, with nothing to hunt, apart from humans, when [i]that[/i] cat-and-mouse had already gotten stale before the credits ran on Predator 2. Perfect. The coincidence of Alien and Predator was a financially expedient opportunity that was exploited only because the opportunity was there - and that was only because the Alien had been [i]immediately[/i] devalued in it's sequel. I say: the Entities don't, naturally, belong together, sit well with each other and that they are actually mutually unnecessary. The Alien story, told as it should be, (or should have been), doesn't actually need a Predator or anything else to give it purpose and meaning - [in that Universe, if anything, it's the Predator that should be worried]. Predator might well have had it's own depth, but it was lazily dealt with, as discussed, by taking advantage of the undermined Alien story. Ultimately, this made the Studio a great deal of money but, creatively, it did neither Universe much good. The concepts involved in the Alien story have such a maturity of psychology and depth, that the story is, (and would have been), self-sustaining and not requiring the services of a Space Viking. There is more than enough in the undiluted Alien Universe that can provide us something to really be frightened of - and [i]think[/i] - about.

BigDave
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April 13, 2012

Well some will think that Aliens did no justice to Alien and gave the excuse to the AVPs but i think that Predator 2 is the one to point the finger at, it was that movie that indeed showed the Space Jockey and Xeno amoungst its Trophy Collection and in effect, would rewrite in its universe the timeline of the Space Jockey and Xeno, in that they was about over 120 years Prior to Alien. At that time Alien gave no explanation or Aliens to how the Xeno was created or how old it was, so again the Predator 2 reference does not go against the timeline because at that point no one knew how the Xeno was created, and by who and how old the Jockey Ship and Race was. AVP was non Canon also and it was silly because the timeline, if they did indeed attempt to make a AVP set after Alien 3 i think it would have been better recieved because like the Games it would have fited more in the universe. Likewise some dispise Alien Resurection because the whole story of how they cloned Ripley made no real sence, after Ripley was killed in Alien 3 that should have been he end of her. Ok maybe clone from DNA but surely not have that clone be impregnated. As i said if i had my legs cut off for some reason and i also had Tattoos everywhere, if someone cloned my DNA then my clone would have legs and it would not have my Tattoos. I can enjoy the Action of Alien Resurection and the AVPs but the Stories was very flawed in the context of connecting it to Alien/Aliens. While Aliens and Alien 3 did follow on from Alien, they made some sence... only way they dont is if you look at how the Alien movie was if you took the deleted scene as being a ligitament part of the movie and also the orginal ideas and script of Alien that never made it into the movie.

R.I.P Sox 01/01/2006 - 11/10/2017

Kauldron
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April 13, 2012

Clonation: Do not mix inheritance of adquired characters with clonation. Simple example: If you have a VIRUS that spread through all your cells, and then you are clonated, obviously the clon will have (adquire) the virus through by a linkage drag phenomenon. And more than that, the cloned individual will have the virus not at a certain age like the original host, but since the very begining (embryo). The implications that it will have on the embryo development may be the artificial creation of an hybrid species. As the first stage of Alien life cycle is a viral stage that modify your cells to create xenomorph, we have to admit that the plot in Alien Ressurection is a good plot. You simply deny it because you don't have enough scientific knowledge to understand virus, development, parasites and evolution in deep. Most people is profane and only understand the surface of genetic inheritance that is learnt in the school. Sometimes I freak out with the scientific misunderstandings that most people have. Today everybody think they know a lot about science, but actually, it is better to know nothing that having a limited, wrong and naive idea about science.

enceladus_is_alive
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April 13, 2012

"Ever since i laid eyes on the Space Jockey in the original film, i guess i was one of the few people who ever questioned it, and realized that it was clearly there for a reason, was of significance, and that it meant something important for the Alien franchise." didn't read past the above craziness.

Spartacus
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April 13, 2012

Ya know what the best thing is? For the first time today I watched the 13 minute slow motion version of the trailer and noticed that Jockey Suit coming undone. Most exciting thing I have seen in film in 33+ years, I have goosebumps just thinking about that right now.

craigamore
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April 13, 2012

BigDave...I believe Dark Horse Comics is responsible for the crossover actually... "Dark Horse laid the foundation for connecting the two franchises in late 1989, with a three-part Aliens vs. Predator story in the company's ongoing anthology series Dark Horse Presents, issues #34, #35, and #36--with Dec. 1989's Dark Horse Presents #36 being the first comic book to feature the title "Aliens vs. Predator" on its cover. This was the first ever officially liscenced material featuring a crossover between the two franchises, later released as Aliens vs. Predator #0, and was a prequel story to the first full-fledged, four-part Aliens vs. Predator mini-series, which followed shortly in June 1990. The initial idea for this marriage of monster movie franchises had come from Dark Horse Predator and AVP artist Chris Warner during story meetings. This original Aliens vs. Predator comics series (released roughly simultaneously with the film Predator 2, which featured the first overt on-screen hint at a crossover between the two franchises) was written by Dark Horse vice president, creative director and editor Randy Stradley." [url=http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Comics]http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Comics[/url] 1990 was the same year as 'Predator 2'

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April 14, 2012

When I saw Alien, the big questions were raised by the Space Jockey. Who, how, when, why? I always felt that the encounter with the Alien was secondary to the immensity and richness of the world(s) the film created. I am BEYOND excited about this film. I don't care if the other Aliens films are even considered. Somehow, in my mind, Prometheus shares the universe of Alien, Outland, Blade Runner and Moon. Just the trailer for Prometheus already puts it at the top of the films I'll see this year, and probably the next, and the following year as well. I can't wait to see this.

Prenihility
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April 14, 2012

Aha... That would explain the Xeno skull in the Predator's ship. Seemingly a reference to AVP in Predator 2 opened the floodgates... FFS... Well, the Xenos will be given more clarity, and significance once Prometheus comes out, and this story can finally go somewhere. DAMN i can't wait. Most of all i can't wait for the Space Jocks... Who will hopefully be officially named. Can't wait. There's so much excitement built up for this movie that it's ridiculous. It's gonna be very, very colourful... They better get a good amount of screen time. *COCKS SHOTGUN* Oh, and...Anyone ever wonder what that cloaked thing is in the trailer? *Waits for joke about someone remarking that i'm hoping it's a Predator*