Comparing Engineers

O'Bannon started it all, Giger imagined it, but they didn't follow it through the end (sadly): Alien was all about the survival plot, Aliens had the bioweapon premise and a great deal of insight to the xenomorph's life cycle, Alien 3 derived to the bambi version and enlightened about it's strenght and instinct, Alien Resurrection had the interspecies mutation factor and suggested that a human could become an Alien; AvP was an intergalactic war of the worlds (human, alien and predator) off the concept of Predator by the Thomas duo, AvP Requiem followed again the whim of Paul Anderson and the lead of similar parasitic host present in Predator 2 as well as depicting predators like some kind of space swat wiping the galaxy from the alien menace. Predators had yet a different storyline exchanging the alien hunt to the human hunt by the predators. Basically anything and everything is possible in the Alien-Predator universe as it is the work of several individuals, no point in trying to see the big picture. Tolkien wrote a masterpiece, the films were words coming to life, no interpretation needed, everything was laid out. Each Alien, AvP or Predator film is to me each and every one a gem on its own merit. The only real question here is why do writers suffer from axed scripts from the very beginning? Money concerns, mostly, directing issues also. Prometheus started another God versus Science debate and the possibility of weapons of mass destruction at a galactic level - a really good theme, but not as good as Jon Spaihts originally wrote it, I believe.

Yes, I must ask. Where is this "predator face"? I've seen this movie many times. Never seen anything remotely close to a Predator in it.

Hello, everyone! This is my first post on this site, so be gentle. :-) I have seen Prometheus many times now, so here is my take on the 2 different Engineers that we see in the film. I believe that the Engineer we see in the opening scene represents a group of Engineers that worship and create "Life." They also nurture and protect it by guiding it during its infancy, as evidenced in the pictorals and drawings by early man. The Engineers on LV-223 have a completely different point of view. There are some who have blogged on this site that believe these Engineers represent the military wing of the Engineers. This is a distinct possibility, however I have another theory: the LV-223 Engineers worship and create "Death." I believe this because of the fresco in the Head chamber depicting a xenomorph and its life stages. They believe that the xenomorph is a physical manifistation of Death. Also, there is a kind of "altar" with a mysterious green stone on it just a few yards in front of the fresco. Both types of Engineers have the same black goo, they just have fundamental differences on its application. The only thing that I don't understand is why would the Life-worshipping Engineers point to a star system used by the Death-worshipping Engineers as a place to stage their attacks? Can anyone speculate on this?

Welcome kevthedm! I was never on board with the faction thing, just seemed too busy a plot device, but your life/ death idea works for me.  I figured the pressure suit we see on the last Engineer was either a manipulation of the Alien DNA, for protection from the volatile substances they were housing, or SJ tech for the same reason. It seems like an engineered variant of MORB biology ( I'm using MORB as an alternative to Xenomorph, a term some of us don't like ). Those cave paintings and tablets seem to me one of two things: either a warning, or a vain depiction of the cradle of human life. I think humans originated on LV223, as tissue ( cloned from Engineer DNA )  for their experiments with the MORB. Upon working with their "samples", they became vain ( as David seems to be becoming. His arc drives a lot of my ideas about this..) and decided to play God on other worlds. I think if there's a conflict, it's between them and the Space Jockeys. I think the Engineers are themselves small cloned tools, designed by the SJ much the way we would design, say, a hammer. A really incredible hammer. 

It could be that they are divided by faith, but rather than to a God, it's simply life and death. That is their God, universal constants, Yin and Yang. That sounds suitably alien and enlightened to me. Another member suggested the Engineers created death, but their mortality contradicts that, unless their creation somehow got ahold of them, which does seem to be the case. I work the Space Jockeys into the story because until shown otherwise I like to believe they are the Creators Shaw will ultimately face. Many stories have been written about the horrors of true immortality, that it is of itself a form of eternal suffering, and that idea dovetails for me with the various clues in Prometheus. The Morb could just be a byproduct of their studies, a form of waste. There are many Earthly parallels with the Engineers, that left a lot of people dissatisfied, but for me it presents the idea that power is a universal pursuit and it's pitfalls are universal as well, it's just a matter of scale, another tie in with the myth of Prometheus.

In the beginning they seem like angels in the service of someone else. Obviously I could be wrong, but anyway Ridley said that they were created by God. If this appear in the sequel, then, I hope it's some kind biomechanical entity, creature, machine or whatever.

Pluss there is that mural with the Deacon in crucifixion position...that seems to keep a meaning beyond the life cycle.

The opening scene features the "old school" engineers as they visit our planet and "seed" it. We evolve (some would disagree). We decide to visit them; however, they've gone through a rather nasty change themselves. Seems they weren't paying attention to Dwight and allowed their military industrial complex to get out of hand...so much so, that it just about wiped them out. They became so enamored of their little beastly weapons that they created a cult-like faction (thus the crucifix-like xenomorph hanging on the wall in the chamber). So hibernating Engineer wakes up to find these moronic humans not only looking for selfish answers but also treating one another badly. He doesn't need to understand English; he's advanced. And he's advanced enough to know (as Kurt Vonnegut knew) that the Earth or universe would probably be better off without us. We're a lousy animal. And the Engineer knows this. To conclude, oh, please, please don't tie this in with Predator.

If we're not dealing with two different factions of Engineers, then perhaps the Engineer we saw in the opening scene represented a time when they believed in the creation of life. They seeded many worlds, including Earth. For thousands of years, they dedicated themselves in guiding the lifeforms that they created. The star system that's depicted on the different drawings, engravings, etc. found by Shaw and Halloway were truly meant as an invitation. Perhaps it was one final step that an Engineer-created species had to take before thay could be considered as equals among the Engineers and other space-faring races. Unfortunately, somewhere along the way the Engineer's ideology of creating life shifted. Why? No one knows. Perhaps they had a change of heart and realized that they had no right to play God by seeding other worlds, creating life. Or, they had seen how other races that they created evolve and were not satisfied with the outcome. They were hoping that the Engineers would one day embrace their children as equals, hoping that they would have advanced, not just in technology, but also in how we treated one another. That's why the Engineer on LV-223 had nothing but disdain for the humans that wanted to meet him; he saw that they were not mature enough and were therefore another "bad crop" that needed to be eradicated. They have spent many centuries trying to identify all of the worlds that they have seeded in order to destroy them with the same black goo that created them. In other words, they were trying to erase their mistakes. Earth was suppose to have been wiped out 2,000 years ago, but something happened on LV-223 that made that impossible.

Kev the DM- I love this post..... the opening scene is unclear on setting. You also raise some interesting points about the glyphs. Im going to post a new discussion with some of my new questions. Please post and tell us what you think.

The Engineers from the opening scene and the Engineers from the film are not the same! There is a time span of some thousand years in between! :) I guess, their culture has changed during that time.

The facial structure of the Engineers looks suspiciously like the face in the Shroud of Turin...

Why can't it be a simple as Shaw suggests - they changed their minds. because, as simple as David suggests, to create you have to destroy. No factions, just that they and our purpose changed. Like Ridley originally thought about suggesting with the whole Jesus thing - sometimes you realise your children are just too bad, too far down the wrong path and you have to take them out.

A predator was inside the head room looking at the captain with his signature, three-red-dot-triangle targeting system, and you can hear him in the background. The predator was also probably the lifeform one of the pups detected. It was walking down that passage until it reached the closed door, where it may have stood for a while trying to open it before walking back.

The predators are an important race in the universe.

Well there are many possibilities... But as for the differences...... Well Lets look at these... [img]http://www.aviationbusinessconsultants.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/fighter-pilot.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/img/themes/society/language/446x251/modern_druid.jpg[/img] Now i am not implying that the Space Jockey Suit is a Flight suit, i think it has many purposes. Inc Bio Hazard Suit. My point being that the Pressure Suits and Space Jockey Suits are just that, a suit but one that bonds to the Engineers skin, so its like what if you had a Gorilla Coat that when worn the Fur attaches to your skin so you actually wear the Fur just as the Gorilla does. However the question is why do the Engineers at the start now have these... Well.... Maybe.. one of more of these... 1) They dont need them as the planets environment was hospitable and not hazardous. 2) It was a religious Sacrifice/Event as such that bishops and monks where religious robes at Church etc but they dont when they are at at home. 3) Maybe they never possessed the Tech for the Pressure/Space Jockey Suits and Juggernaut at the start of the movie, remember these scene could been many many hundreds of Millions of years ago. 4) Maybe the Bio Tech of the Suits and Juggernauts was obtained at a latter date by reverse Engineering or Stealing from something or some race they came across.... i.e connected to the Xeno. My other point and reason for those images... is well look at the Prometheus Crew do they walk around in their Space Suits all day... Nope only when they are needed for a purpose and that purpose is that outside that Ship the Environment is Hazardous to them. The Engineer Ships Produce a Environment that the crew can live in, and the Engineer did get to the lifeboat without his Mask, so the suit is maybe not needed for them to breath in that environment . Nope maybe its to protect the Urns and Cargo of Eggs from what ever Atmospheric Changes/Contamination are caused via the breathing of the Engineers. By that maybe had the Crew not taken off their Helmets maybe it would not have affected the Ampule Room?

As far as the Agenda and Star Maps.... We do not know if the Engineers used LV 223 as a outpost to watch over Mankind, maybe they was working on Tera Forming it as a place of Worship for Mankind to one day when ready come to find their creators. Maybe then as we upset the Engineers in the past and they decided to do away with us, they decided to change what they may have started as a Paradise for Mankind to now be used a Weapons/Military testing Facility to create a Bio Weapon to destroy. Like a God changing the Garden or Eden into a Garden of Death Harbinging now just poison fruit.

LV 223 is an outpost of the Devil, and the head statue is he. They were stopped from destroying humanity 2,000 years ago because they were defeated and humanity saved by God at that time.

The Engineers at the beginning created the bio-armored Engineers, like Weyland created David. This is why once awoken he does 2 things: 1. Admires David, strokes his face gently...then uses him to kill his maker. 2. Automatically kills and embarks on the original mission. He's a far more advanced Android, but an Android nonetheless, following his orders... Which I might add isn't necessarily to destroy us, but could be to evolve us further, after all, we upgrade our Androids too...

I hear much talk of this, of bio-mechanical suits for some of the engineers and such, but I'm not convinced at all that any of them are articifial lifeforms. The message from the film was clearly that they share our DNA, that we came from them biologically, and that they break down biologically as seen in the very beginning. The idea of bio-mechanical suits is just someone's idea, theory, and probably the suits are just suits.

I think the engineer may have attacked because David was an android, out of hatred for androids even though he gently touches his face like he admires him. The engineer just wanted to surprise attack like he did, because Weyland was saying he was proud of creating David and by doing so he was on equal footing with the engineer.

I love that they left us with so many unknowns. It's an awesome universe. Looking forward to the sequel.

Thats what i was saying and have been along, these are merely suits. But they are advanced and are able to actually weld on and attach to the wearer. Its as i have said if you take a Gorilla or Fur coat and you wear it, it is a coat and the Fur is not worn by you the same way it was worn by the animal it came from. Now imagine if you could have a Fur Coat that when worn the actual Fur bonds to your body so it actually becomes part of you, so when you stick say this Fur Coat on your actually wearing it and are a part of it just as the Original Animal it came from. This is what the Engineers Bio Mechanical Suits do.

@Big Dave: How do you know that, though? Is it something you are guessing by how tightly the suits are worn? I've seen the movie many, many times, owning the deluxe DVD since it came out, and it never occured to me that the suits do that. I'm glad you weren't saying some of the engineers were androids as I thought you were.

The impression I got was that the suits were in their own way alive, given their fleshy texture and overall Morb appearance, maybe some tech worked up from Morb DNA? I also thought they were fused to the body, the way it sort of interfaces with the flesh at the neck and wrists, as if those guys were in fact part Morb. I took it as a clue to their experiments on and manipulations of Morb biology.

Well its only my own opinion from the clues that the movie showed. The Pressure Suit seems really tight and in sections its like it actually is part of the Engineer, much like how a Gorillas Fur is on them compared to a Man in a Monkey Suit..... This makes me think that the suit must some how be worn and when it does it bonds to the Engineer, and more clues come from how the Space Jockey Suit attached to the Engineer in the Pilot Chair Scene. This does not mean thats whats going on though... A alternative could be that thats just how the Engineers are and its not a suit but its there skin, but then why do the Engineers at the start of the movie look more Human as far as their bodies. Mind you if they possessed Highly Advanced Bio Mech Teck and they tinker with Advanced Genetics, then maybe they could have created or mutated/evolved themselves to actually be like the pressure Suit Engineer. As far as the Android goes then how different is David to a Engineer, David just has Synthetic Materials that look and feel like Human Skin and Hair and his Organs are Synthetic and he does not have all Human Organs because well he does not need them. Essentially David is near Human only he does not have.. 1) a Soul 2) His brain is Synthetic and Mechanical and not Organic Computer we have. 3) David can not reproduce. 4) David has limited freewill. 5) He is much stronger and intelligent. 6) He would live for a very long time, until his materials and mechanics fail. 7) He does not eat food or need it like us, but does have to consume some substances to help maintain his Synthetic internal parts. Now the Engineers we see may also have 3-6 just as David, and thus they could be the same as David only they are Organic and not Synthetic. Does that mean they are Androids? Maybe not, but then we are also just Robots only we are Organic Robots that can reproduce...... Engineers Organic Robots that can not maybe? I thought before Prometheus came out and the (Big Things Come from Small Beginnings) Scene that maybe David would use the Goo and Secrets of the Engineers to make him more Human... so he would be more like a Replicant than Android. And i thought maybe this movie could have been set as a prequel to Alien in that maybe David taking the Goo to make him more Human was him stealing Fire from the Gods.... David thus Prometheus and as his punishment.... he gets Face Hugged by Shaws Baby and alas this is where the Part Mechanical and Part Organic Xeno Queen or Proto Xeno came from... I feel this would have made for a great part.. the whole Davids Agenda to become Human, via the Goo and then gets Face Hugged..

It is unclear to me how a discussion about 'comparing engineers' has devolved into assertions that a Predator (of all things) was present on LV-223. I've watched the BluRay edition more times than I care to admit and I've seen no Predator references anywhere. And if Ridley's feelings have been accurately reported here and elsewhere, Predators do not exist in his Alien universe. On Topic: The sacrificial engineer shares similar qualities with Bob (skin color, size, etc.) but he travels in a different ship. Is this difference due to engineer evolution, scientific evolution and/or advances, a combination of the two or perhaps something else - a totally different and separate race who share a common ancestor? It's all speculation folks, just more mental masturbation :)

@Big Dave: Thanks for the replies. I think the report post feature is broken. I tried to report the last post in this discussion by "OldGuy", who is being insulting and just disgusting in his last sentence. Please do what you can to get rid of these kinds of posters.

"Insulting and disgusting"? You're kidding, right? I believe most of us are adults here and can handle the above without difficulty. If my post offends you simply move on.

lol.... Mind you its not to bad a comment, seen worse...... I used to be a Mod on here but for some reason ages ago i could never log in or register a new ID on here, so i contacted Chris and he reset my password and account so dont have those privileges now, or i would removed any offending comments and spam etc on here. I guess depends on the viewer as i dont find Mental You know what a bad comment lol @OldGuy There is a scene where you see 3 Predator Lights, this could be purely a reflection and not intended to appear as such, or could be done on purpose which i doubt... Also the Markings on the Urns are similar to Predator writing and not Engineer ones on the Walls, and Consoles etc etc. Again this does not mean that its Predator at all. As far as different Ships go, well again we have to remember the opening scene is many many Millions of years before the fall of LV 223 and no doubt implies the Saucer is maybe Millions of years older Tech, but then again they are two different craft. A Nuclear Sub Marine and a Tank look different to a Cruise Ship and a Bus..... Thus the first ship we see is a seeder ship or just their main long distance vessel that carries a lot of Engineers. And the Juggernauts are just Bomber/Warships and Cargo Ships designed to carry only a handful of Engineers.