Prometheus 2 plot, possible just speculation not FACT

The source did in past and of late seem to drop hints to things vaguely like Ridley Scott has, and especially with stuff before they hint at things that seem a bit odd or bizarre that dont quite fit....

Only latter for information to come out that fits..

i think it would take a long time to discus certain things individually but they do release interesting information that seems a bit odd, but then seems to latter match what Ridley comes out with... one example being latter about if the Engineers are forerunners of Mankind, and who create life on Worlds, then who makes those worlds what they are.. is the big bang a accident, did it happen?  And where is the big guy in all this.

This seemed to back up what the source said many weeks like 7-8 prior...

And maybe it would be interesting to tackle every hint they drop, regardless of if its Legit.... one of those i had been thinking off was the last thing they said last weekend.

In that without SIN in context to the Paradise Lost, there would be No Xenomorph?

Its that Sin as in to displease God? or as in Satans Daughter, and when i looked into it a bit today you can link Sin to Lilith, to Lamia and Echidna which links to Gorgons, and Gorgans link to Athena that links to how Sin was Born...

Also Sin, seems to have given birth to horrific monsters, who break out of her womb ripping entrails (Chest Buster) and also how she is constantly Pregnant and these beasts, go or grow back inside her womb... which could reflect to Prometheus Punishment, which then could both link to that Fresco in Prometheus.

Sins offspring is mainly Hell Hounds, Dog like guardians of Hell that links to the Cerberus that links to Echidna
who bore many Monsters.

Which then made me think about how one new Alien Novels had a Race of Dog like beings as being behind the Eggs? (Alien out of the Shadows) that i was not aware of until a matter of a week ago.

Also the way Sin is depicted similar to Lilith, to Lamia and Echidna and Gorgons and how Serpents and Dragons fits in with Satan and how Ridley said about Paradise Lost and referred to the Xeno as Dragons and Serpents.

And the source a long time ago refereed to the Punishment of the Fallen Angels in Paradise Lost as far as turning into Serpents freed them from Bondage.

Maybe this may all fit?

This always brings me back to Gigers Li, which was his ex Wifes name, but Li is connected to Goddess and also to Lilith and Gigers work on Li does fit with Lilith.

So does something like it play a part in the Xenomorph?

Could Shaw be Lilith/Sin or a reincarnation or recreation of her?

if this is right and follows Paradise Lost then that maybe it means the Deacon and Shaw play a role in the creation of it all?

Just checked out more on Alien: Out of the Shadows and it fits in with Two Different Alien stories that i was trying to work on for over 2 years that i mainly had a broad Plot and not full story complete lol Both my stories had elements that matched Out of the Shadows lol

 Michelle: Interesting post, thanks. This is a reply to your post from June 2^nd by the way.

By refocusing on I guess that you mean that they first intended to focus on the engineers but now they have changed their minds so they will give more attention to the Xenos and the Weyland Yutani company and how it came to be and their agenda which in turn would fit with what that guy said to Vickers (“Is there an agenda here?”). This could be interesting although I would prefer if they would focus on other things than the agenda of the Weyland-company but still have it as a part.

I don’t mind to learn more about the Engineers but their relation to the Xeno should be expanded on I think which is the opposite to what they thought about first. Remember what Ridley said that the beast is cooked and so on. The Engineers probably have made more monsters than the Xeno so I wouldn’t mind to see what kind of monsters that would be. Yes in some way the beast is cooked and in other ways it isn’t. Maybe they have done monsters that are more interesting and dangerous than the Xeno and if so they could show that, I wouldn’t mind that. Let’s say that the Xeno is a metaphor for bio-weapons, there are different bio-weapons in the real world so maybe there are different monsters that the Engineers have made also but that maybe the Xeno is the most successful one if we look at its purpose?

As far as human characters I think that an improvement is a must (compared to Prometheus). The movies where we see human characters getting in trouble and when we see ourselves in them and realize that this is a situation that could happen to us or something similar then we wonder how we would react in a similar situation. In my opinion this was what made the Alien movie so good because many could imagine how we would react in a situation like that even though people just got a feeling but didn’t really think about how they would react. Since this has been done before it could work again if they put some time and effort into it but then they must really try mostly with the human characters. You can’t just sell a movie by having good monsters in it or nice looking landscapes no matter how much CGI or what ever you put into it. The characters are number one, at least to me.

By effort and time they could make David and Daniels work. They made David work in Prometheus so they might have learned something. I am not that worried about what they will do with David but I wonder how they will handle the character of Daniels. Even if they have side characters they need to make them a lot better than what we saw in Prometheus (Chance, Ravel or what ever their names were).  For example I remember some of the marines and their names in Aliens but I remember very few of the side characters in Prometheus which to me proves that they were a failure.

As far as world building I think that you mean how they do the environments and planets. Please correct me if I am mistaken since English isn’t my first language. We could see that the world building (creating the environments) wasn’t a problem in Prometheus at least not to me so I think that they could get that right.

Big Dave:

I don’t mind that we are told some about the Engineers but you got to make them interesting and have them making sense to the story. This is why I think that they made a mistake when they toned down the Xenomorph because it is obvious when we look back at it that they had a role in how the monster came about. Because of this I think that they need the Xeno when they tell the story about the Engineers. Without the Xeno the Engineers become less interesting at least to me. This doesn’t mean that we need another Xeno only movie just that they should let the Xeno play a bigger role than they intended to when they decided to tone it down.

To me the Xeno is a sort of bio-weapon that the Engineers did. Eventually they have created more monsters also so the Xeno might be one of those that maybe they could keep as the most advanced one. I hope that we will see some other monsters also which would have the focus less on the Xeno but still let it have a role in the Engineer culture and still keep the Xeno and Engineers relevant. Compare this to how you can use different forms of biological warfare.

My biggest problem with Prometheus was that the majority of the characters were lame (for example Shaw, Fifield, and Vickers). Some of them were alright but you can’t just have 2 good characters that drive the whole show while the rest are annoying or don’t make sense. When you think about it the theme in Alien(s) is how humans get confronted with something that they don’t understand and how it affects their lives. This is heavily (I would suggest) dependent on good human characters because if you don’t have that then the movie will fall flat no matter how many interesting monsters, Engineers, or landscapes that you have. This is one of the things that didn’t work in Prometheus. Because of this I think that they should focus on these things (in this order):

1. Human characters
2. Monsters
3. Engineers

I put the Engineers as number three because to me the Engineers are interesting because of their connection to the monsters, not the other way around but I want the Engineers to be well developed also as characters/species or what ever you prefer to call them.

As far as Weyland I really don’t care about him. I think that the company could play a role in Alien Covenant because they have done so in the movies this far although mostly behind the scenes at least in Alien and Aliens. In Alien 3 there were more about them but they were in it the right amount of time. However in Prometheus I just didn’t care for Weyland, he wasn’t interesting but David was a well done character (the best by far).

Xeno clues in Prometheus: they were too few and sometimes confusing if you haven’t watched alien 1 2 and 3. This was a mistake I think even though I am not sure who was responsible for doing that.

Prometheus is OK as a whole but not more but I am looking forward to Alien Covenant which I hope will be better. I don’t try to have big expectations but then if I get happily surprised then that is a good thing. After reading some about what happened in the production about Prometheus (comments by Lindelof, Scott, and Spaights) it feels like it could have been so much better if Fox wouldn’t have messed it up.

My preferred version of Prometheus goes in this order:

1. Spaights
2. Lindelof
3. The finished version

Yes it was only after a while that I understood that it was connected to Alien. I didn’t get that in the beginning. Because if it is meant to be something and if it does a lot of detective work to even figure that out then it is a movies that obviously lacks things which isn’t to say that the movie is a disaster. Prometheus isn’t a disaster but it could have been so much better, this is how I would explain my general opinion about it for some one that would ask about my opinion about it (without going into detail). There are good things about the movie and there are things that are just lame in it.

I am not very interested in Alien 5 or 6 (to be honest I have never been) but if some people are interested in it then good for them I guess.

It is alright to tell the story about the Engineers but then they should be clearer about how they are connected to the Derelict (Alien, 1979) and the Xenomorph without letting us know all the answers about the monster or the Engineers/Space Jockey. Some things in movies should be left for the human imagination to figure out, that is one of the interesting things about the Xeno so yes I agree with you that a movie with 1,5-2 hours with pure Xeno action would also be lame. Maybe let the Xeno get 15-20% of the screen time and then I also mean Xeno related things so we wouldn’t need to see the Xeno all that screen time. This was one of the interesting things about Alien 1 that you didn’t really see it that much but you know that it was around. For example Alien eggs are alien related but they are not the same as the creature so this could be used in Alien Covenant during the 15% of the screen time dedicated to the Xeno (just my example).

I am not sure if I would watch an Engineer spin-off movie but if they will keep the Xeno connection and have good human characters then maybe. Compared to you Big Dave I am probably less of an Engineer fan even though a movie about them could be interesting if it is being done right but only then would I probably watch it if it would be a small Xeno connection but then the other things surrounding the Engineers would need to be done right and also have good human characters. I have the same opinions about spin-off movies about Star Wars characters also. Maybe this paragraph sounds a bit confusing but I hope that it isn’t well I blame the fact that English isn’t my first language so I have an excuse. LOL!

This became a long post but I blame it on my need to explain why I reason the way I do.

@ Thoughts and Dreams

Hi this is a response to your post of the 4th June. I am always impressed when individuals apply their second language skills in these kind of discussions and I am glad you mentioned it. The way you express yourself is a good deal better than many whose first language is English !

World Building for me is expressed in both the visuals and the creation of a rich mythology. So Ridleys visual ideas and the formation of an Engineer or more to the point Space Jockey back story in Prometheus worked well - to a point.

I have been listening to the three commentaries in recent weeks (Ridders/Spaihts and Lindelof)  two matters are clear :-

1) Whilst I know many were  distracted by the behaviour of some of the crew and saw them as weak that was a very deliberate theme. As Lindelof said this mission by a vain glorious CEO was alway going to be a disaster and the crew were hired guns who were opportunistic cynics. I did not "like" or "warm" to any of the characters but that did not concern me. For me the movie was about warming to the ideas and the intrigue of those ideas. I wasn't rooting for the characters as I did in A and A's I was rooting for the answer which brings me on to point 2.

2) Where the film lost slightly was in how to resolve the ideas and communicate them. It is quite clear from Lindelof's commentary that the Engineers history included redacting humankind, whenever they considered it appropriate, and having Noah moments and starting again. The holographic images and the star map were quite specifically recording another redacting mission. But Lindelof by his own admission is poor on exposition and so we never saw that idea more than emblematically. Janek and Shaw's dialogue was at a fast paced point in the movie and only dealt with the hostile nature of the airfield rather than move on just a little further and include dialogue along the lines of "Janek do you see, they may have done this before, they are not Gods they are f…… scientists playing God. Well this time it stops will you promise me……..

This finally brings me to the black goo which has been discussed in the other thread and what it is about. Many of us believe it is a tainted catalyser from the first scene I describe it as pro creation on steroids thats why you end up with the multiple vaginal Trilobite with a kind of over extended female reproductive "kit". Big Dave talks about it being the result of an accident  and like the tele-porter in the fly. Again just a little more exposition in the headroom even lingering over the mural and holloway commenting would have made it clear to the A L I E N audience that the mural was record of their experiments and the christ like image of the deacon and the green crystal representing them shutting it down by which time it was to late.

To move from Spaihts literal this is LV426, the Jockey and the Derelict to this is LV223, a Jockey and another Juggernaut gave the movie a fresh ness rather than a dot plot join but having done that they left inconsistencies or lack of clarification regarding the world building, (Vases v Eggs), timelines the Deacon as progenitor as Lindelof calls it. If the Deacon is progenitor the A L I E N lifecyle we know is in the future and then we are off into our speculations as to how to fit the two stories together, that should have been more elegantly handled and I think Ridders knows that and is informing what is going on New South Wales at the moment.   

@BD 3rd June. Your thoughts about Li and kick starting the cycle with Shaw somewhere in the food chain makes a lot of sense its part of my speculations and I think CP. It heightens her role in the sequence which feels artistically correct given her input to the proceeding chapter.

On a separate point you know my thing about how many more movies?

John Logan said if you are going to explain the how and why the Zeno you have to have the life cycle in the narrative. I agree with that, but if you come out of the cinema next year with the answer is it not baked and done, to twist a metaphor. Ridders himself has said maybe one more maybe another I place the emphasis on maybe. He maybe thinking box office but unless he has a clear idea of the next pre equal already which makes sense if you know where your heading (LV426 the derelict and its pilot ) then someone has to come up with another highly original way to present the Zeno yet again and after A 5.     

"I put the Engineers as number three because to me the Engineers are interesting because of their connection to the monsters, not the other way around"

If we go back to Alien (ignore draft and Star Beast) then the movie was about those Eggs and the Organism, the Space Jockey was connected but never answered....  Aliens went further away from who the Space  Jockey and Derelict was and why and so did every other movie they all concentrated on the Xenomorph

They decided to make a prequel because no one ever asked who the Big Guy was, who was he, why that Cargo..... and so they wanted to explore the Space Jockey and also cover why they had links with the Xenomorph... they never gave us reasons for why they would used it deeply or how it came to be.

We was shown that the Space Jockeys (Engineers) where experimenting on various related experiments that all related to the Xenomorph, they was testing and cooking up various kinds.... for use maybe as a Bio-Weapon but then things went badly wrong.

The side Plot was that these Engineers also played a role in the creation of Mankind, but we never had a reason why and then why they would wanted to use the Xeno on us after creating us.

Fox then felt while we have seen Xenomorphs done over and over, the Space Jockey never was and by moving from LV-426 to a LV-223 near by Outpost to create and test a Bio-Weapon while having another World (Paradise) being where these Engineers come from.

They decided to get Lindeloff in and explore the Engineers more, as far as being creators of many things and not just creators of the Xeno Bio-Weapon.

This change was not accepted well by many fans who wanted to see more Xeno movie, and answers to the Xeno Origins and the Space Jockey Story as opposed to about his Race.

Like saying do we do a movie about Steve Jobs and his Apple creation... or a movie where we look at Mankind and its other role and creation.....  to then find out nope people just wanted to know about how,when and why Steve Jobs created Apple etc.

And so back to your comment... "I put the Engineers as number three because to me the Engineers are interesting because of their connection to the monsters, not the other way around"

Fox felt that the Engineers and what else they are behind is more important as they are a Race who did more than just create Xenomorph Eggs to drop onto Worlds...

But now it seems they are going back to showing us the connection with the Xenomorph more, and maybe not cover what else Engineers did in depth.

But i think that would be covered too, because you dont need 2 movies to explain the Xenomorph and how they said they may do a 3rd on the Space Jockey means that we dont need to see the Space Jockey as far as how the Eggs get put on, or laid on or what ever on that ship, and the Space Jockey setting off from A to go to Z but then during that he gets infected and Chest Busted.

We dont need a movie for that, if the Xeno is covered in another way. Once we are shown how the Eggs are created, and how maybe they could be handled safely to transport them and why the Xeno was created then the rest is not needed to be shown as we have the answers.

i will try and summarize what the source over the period of time hinted at towards the Xeno, Ridley said we would find out why they would create such a thing, but then he also said such Evil Biology...

So it could be the Engineers created the Biology but  maybe they did not use it? or that the  aim of the Biology was when created was purely for the Xenomorph?

If the Engineers created the Sacrificial Goo, and David used that to create a Human/Indigenous Snake Hybrid and this Hybrid then went on to terrorize future movies...  Its then who created the Snake Monster... David? or Engineers?  when its a case of as for the Origin and how it came to be then it would be about the Origin of the Goo that was misused by David.

So we dont quite know for sure how this would be covered....

The source references the FLY aspect as merely how contamination maybe create something new that was not desired.

They had hinted that the Xenomorph is maybe seen like how in Paradise Lost when the Fallen Angels are turned into Serpents and how this gave the Fallen Angels freedom from bondage as in terms of Engineers connection.

They also hinted  that Mankind plaid a bigger role in the creation of the Xeno, but they was vague and so it could be do we create it from scratch? do we create it by using something of the Engineers? was we used to create the Xenos... or was our role in the reason for the Engineers deciding to create the Bio-Weapon.

They was vague.... but they did say also Mankind had been to the System before... Prometheus Mission and then also that Mankind are 4th/5th Generation of Mankind and again they are vague....

They claim that we cant connect literally the Bible and Paradise Lost, because literally Heaven is above Earth, Paradise is on Earth, and Garden of Eden is in Paradise and Hell is a pit below Earth.... but the movie shows us that Paradise is not near Earth, and so Hell is not near Earth and also how Hell was created before Earth.

They also said the events of Paradise Lost and Bible are not to be taken literal and are hinted at but not to consider them as happening literally to our Generation.

Does that mean Generations before, like great great great great grandparent etc.. i.e Noahs times?

Or is each Generation a upgrade, such as maybe if we use Darwin and how Mankind Evolved from Primates, then we have stages of Primates

This shows 5 Evolutionary stages of Man, is Man 4th or 5th Generation?

So maybe the source means that as the Bible says we are not born from Apes... but also how Darwin says we are not created from thin air.... but something connected that goes through Evolutionary Stages.

The above image and conclusion is not what the source said, just me maybe trying to figure out what could they have meant?

So if we replace Apes... with Engineers... then maybe we evolved from them or related?

when i see this scene...

Then to me i dont see these beings being Bald because they are Humans burnt, if you look at the Males they are all in Perfect Physical Specimens the females are also representations of ideological perfect female form.

Are these Engineers, or some Race that connects the dots between Engineers and Mankind, are they a generation/evolution of Engineers but a previous Generation to Humans and so did the source mean Mankind as in our Evolutionary Ancestors?

So was our Evolutionary Ancestors the ones who created the Xeno for use against their creators?

I am not quite sure.... but i am trying to piece those clues together... but again the SOURCE could be Wrong and all Fiction and Lies.

But when i look at it and make some connections as i did above and think how long ago these things was said before we had Alien Covenant Synopsis and never mind these onset photos that confirm we are not going to see just David+ Covenant Crew + Xenomorphs.

The source said over a year ago, about the next movie had a much bigger cast and hinted at covering Engineer/Human history and fall more and thus Flash Back Scenes.

Michelle:

Thanks, I try to do my best.

As far as opportunistic cynics that might explain some of it but that explanation isn’t totally satisfying at least not to me although it might answer some of the weak characters. Even though that might be what they were they should have been done better for example Chance what was his role?  The Ford character was totally forgettable, I am not sure why she was even there. To me those two characters were not interesting one bit (there were also other characters in Prometheus that I don’t remember that well). Compare this to for example Aliens where I thought that most of the characters were done well even those that were not very important so even though I don’t remember their names I remember what they did and why, this is not the case with Prometheus where many did things that were silly or they didn’t leave a mark in my memory so they become forgettable.

To me a movie where you don’t care about the characters is a movie that seriously lacks something even though the themes might be interesting. Don’t misunderstand, the themes in Prometheus: life, death, immortality, our purpose in all this – these are interesting themes but they went a bit over-board in Prometheus and since most (capital M since I think that some were well done) of the characters were bad that didn’t make it better. If some people think that the themes are more important than the characters then it is probably fine for them I am not going to bash them even though I disagree. I have seen some discussions about Prometheus where many people get emotional which doesn’t make sense to me. Getting mad about a movie doesn’t make sense, although I understand if people get in a bad mood when they think about poverty, starvation and so on. I just wish that people could put things in perspective so getting mad about a movie doesn’t make sense.

The black goo wasn’t a bad idea but they should have expanded a bit on the explanation about that. It mutates life forms in a way into angry monsters I am fine with that explanation but I think that they should have expanded a bit on that. Yes I didn’t understand the mural either but one guess that I have is that it is either an imagined God that the Engineers have or a result that they want to reach by their genetic experiments. Unfortunately we didn’t get an explanation about it, which is lame since it obviously plays a role in the story.

I don’t mind that they moved the story from LV-426 to LV-223 but they could have done it so much better with the characters and how it connected to the Alien movie. The lack of explanation (and bad characters except for some) is what made this movie worse than it could have been but if you look under the surface you see how good it could have been which is a bit frustrating but better luck the next time. Some might complain about the Deacon but I liked it because we don’t need another full on Xeno movie. Ridley is probably aware that they need better characters this time since that is what many people (including me) complained about so hopefully they will make the characters better this time (having their actions making sense, and so on).

Big Dave:

Yes I am totally aware that they explained very little about the pilot from Alien (/1979). I think that the experiments on the Xenos that the Engineers do is interesting and could be explained to an extent but it must be done in an interesting way.

I understand that they had a role in creating mankind but I am not very interested in that part even though I understand that some people are. There are other parts of the Engineers that could be interesting to see.

The Xenos have been featured many times but I still think that they should give it a bigger role the next time around since they are what started this franchise in the first place. I don’t say that they should only have the Xenos because as far as I understand it the Engineers are responsible for other monsters also.

Lindeloff should probably have been given a smaller role than he was given. I don’t say that he was responsible for everything that went wrong but they should have kept more of the things that Spaights did.

The Xeno should be featured a bit more in the next movie (compared to Prometheus which is not to say that we should see it the whole time). Hopefully they will do it this way but to have the Xeno in every scene would reduce it. If we look at Alien 1-4 they didn’t have it in every scene there either. Maybe they will try to balance that, I hope that they will think about it. New monsters and new characters would be interesting. As far as new monsters the monsters in Alien-Alien 3 were fairly similar. Resurrection had some new as far as I know but the movie lacks in general.

To just show the Engineers and how they did the Xeno would also be lame because there are other things that the Engineers supposedly did. I think that there is a need to find some sort of balance here. The Engineers could be done in an interesting way but you got to find a way to make interesting human beings first. Hopefully they will try to make sense of both the Engineers while keeping some mystery about them. As well as we don’t need to be shown everything about the Xeno we don’t need to be seen everything about the Engineers either. Some times it is better to leave some things up to the imagination.

“Once we are shown how the Eggs are created, and how maybe they could be handled safely to transport them and why the Xeno was created then the rest is not needed to be shown as we have the answers.”

So if we are shown how they could be handled safely then we can use our imagination to try to make ourselves a scenario how it could have gone wrong. Is that your point? I think that could be a good way because then there is still a mystery about it which is better.

@ Thoughts and Dreams. 

I think you summarise beautifully your concerns about Prometheus and I think they are entirely legitimate.

As a 61 year old I view this new type of discussion with complete strangers a part of our evolution in communication. To be honest a great deal of it particularly on Facebook is based in the notion that we all have to have an opinion and we all have to transmit as some kind of gratification or attention seeking. The number of people who are actually listening to each other and learning to see other peoples point of view is much smaller. Reaching out and understanding takes more time than simple dismissal that I think covers one of your points about people getting het up.

I have found the conversations here extremely stimulating and set me off on number of thoughts which enrich my understanding of the movies. As a completer finisher it is good to exchange views with people who merely wish to postulate and reign in the conclusion.

On two points :-

1) Prometheus in retrospect was not only tangental and elliptical in its relationship to A L I E N but also operated in quite a different way. I do not enjoy Prometheus in the way I enjoy A L I E N so for those looking for an A L I EN prequel they would be rightly disappointed on two levels.

2) You have indicated you are more interested in somethings than others and want to retain a sense of mystery. This is the central prequel dilemma how much of the mystery do you unravel to tell more of the story. Personally I think the next couple of movies are rich with possibilities.

To know why Paradise Lost ?

To know why the Zeno and whether tantalisingly mankind was involved ?

Then there are the specific plot points.

How do you make Weyland Yutani's experience of the Covenant mission consistent with A L I E N.

Why did the Engineer "Space Jockey" set the Juggernaut down on LV426 and set off the warning beacon. That decision can be the fulfilment and closest we get to the Engineers but keep them mysterious with only glances back wards into their history but make the deductions clear and logical. We do not have to go there we just need to understand what happened and why.             

That may be the level of understanding combined with mystery you are looking for and I would be interested if I have that right. It also happens to be what I hope for. I do not want a public information movie on the Engineers I want glimpses of their history in the mythos.

"I understand that they had a role in creating mankind but I am not very interested in that part even though I understand that some people are"

"The Xenos have been featured many times but I still think that they should give it a bigger role the next time around since they are what started this franchise in the first place"

You are not alone in these kind of hopes, i think Fox felt that maybe those things are not as important as trying to branch off about the Space Jockey... but for the General Public the movie did not link to Alien enough, many maybe never knew or if they knew they could not connect with Alien.

A lot of interest was gaining with Alien 5 and so i think Fox in hindsight while trying to explore and create a Mythos of of the Engineers that connects to Ancient Mankinds Gods, and so they also create other things and the Xeno was just one element of their total History.

It seem they then due to how Prometheus was received and how hype was for Alien 5, they decided on changes.. that those Two Quotes i took from you Thoughts_Dreams hit the nail on the head..

Those two Quotes are perhaps exactly what Fox saw and reason for Alien Covenant and Logan being brought in.

And so the rest of your post also hits the nail on the head as far as changes.... yes its ok to go on about in detail some interesting Plot devices.... but then are the fans going to be interested in these?

And while they could try and take us on some journey of a story... without Good Characters its not going to work for a lot of people... as you said for example how we engaged the cast of Alien compared to Prometheus yet the Prometheus Story was more Bold and bigger.

This is why i think changes are being made and John Logan has been brought on board.

If i can try and continue with the Source in regards to the Xeno as i went a bit off and more onto Mankind..

Then at the time when Ridley said the movie was moving away from Alien and that Prometheus sequel would be Alien in one direction and then another would be Prometheus 2.... No more Gods, and Dragons the Beast is Cooked and only so much Snarling you can do.

At around or just before this.... is when the Source first passed information.

Regarding the Xeno, they said the movie would introduce not ONE... but TWO Monsters... Both different from each other but yet when we compare each to the Original Xenomorph in Alien we can see they are connected.

One of them is from a New Event, which they hinted as being either at the hands of David, or via something related to David, that could be David creates this New Monster, or its created in response to David.

so a new event it seemed they was pushing as far as post Prometheus and maybe post when David left LV-223 in that Juggernaught.

So while they never directly said... this means maybe the other is a older event... prior to David leaving LV-223.

But we dont know what event, it could be from the Deacon, or the Hammerpedes, or it could be something from way more in the past be that the LV-223 outbreak that wiped out the Engineers or something even further back? or between that event and Prometheus.

But then they also said how one Event was at the hand of David and so he played a role in it, even if it was not him it was by virtue of his presence that created the New Event...   which maybe rules out the older Event as being the Deacon and events of Prometheus as David had his hand in that...

Which maybe then we come to a event before, maybe related to the Space Jockey, maybe related to the LV-223 outbreak.... but when the source said these TWO NEW Monsters he meant as in never seen before and both are not the Xenomorph but are related...

This maybe means the older event is not even the Xenomorph and so something related, something created from... or something that leads to the Xenomorph.

But we have to remember also the next movies was to hint to the Xeno and Goo origins....

So who knows what these TWO MONSTERS meant....  but i guess if we look at Prometheus we saw the Deacon Mural that did not look quite like a Xeno and not quite like the Deacon at the end but related.

We also saw Shaws Deacon Child that David played a hand in, and then the creature from the Fresco that was from the past....

Both of these do not look the same, and yet we can connect them to the Xenomorph... however i think the New Event could be something David creates after Prometheus...now he has knowledge of the Goo and maybe what the Murals was showing and Shaws Baby etc.

And something from past is maybe something that connects the Xeno to the Fresco?

Either way if the Source was correct then i think they was trying to show us that a new related Organism would be created after Prometheus but we shall see from a Flash Back Scene something from the past that is connected..... or maybe something from the past is lurking on Paradise and David uses this to create something new?

Who knows.... they did say that the one of these but they did not say which... was similar to Gigers Necronom 4, and that one of them would have like Translucent skin... but they did not say so in a way that means which one is connected to Necronom 4 and which is Translucent or if one of them is both of those.

They did latter say that indeed, the one is based of unused Spaights Ultramorph which itself was based off Necronom 4

But again its not said if the Necronom 4/Ultramorph looking Monster is the event after Prometheus or one from the past.

They did suggest, that Prometheus had the Answers, but they was vague but they was there... no coincidences... they also suggested that Fire and Stone held clues also.

So its kind of like the whole Connection was in our Face but it was not shown or covered in a way that we get a none ambiguous answer.

When i look at what Prometheus showed then i gain this.

*Black Goo in Urns has a Xeno DNA Connection.

*Hammerpede, and Shaws Baby have a Connection, DNA wise they do, and other drafts and concepts Fifield and other creatures did more so.

*The Mural shows a related Organism, is this God, who they worshiped as God, who they Sacrificed or who Sacrificed itself? Or its it a Prophecy?   But we also have Two Different Face Hugers that where HR Gigers other Face Huger designs that was never used... Purely East Eggs?

*The Frescos show a Organism and then what appears to be this Organism or a Xeno holding a Xeno Egg, again another Prophecy or was the Xeno Egg already known?

*Juggernaught and Derelict are similar, they had similar task and that was to hold and either transport or deliver deadly Cargo or Cargo that can be deadly when used. The Space Jockey and Engineer Flight/Bio-Hazard Suits are similar?

*The Juggernaught had 3 Chest Busted Engineers and this event must have happened a long time ago, is it connected to the Outbreak 2000 years ago?  Did it happen prior or after and how many weeks, months or years prior or after?

*The outbreak happened 2000 years ago...

*LV-223 is located near LV-426

And so those * points i came up with are connected but we dont know how, does the source mean that from these things or something else we missed we have our answers only they are not spoon fed...

For example... the Egg Fresco, the Chest Busted Cryo Pods on the Juggernaught the casual viewer would have missed these... its only those who study the Concept work and full images that was hardly shown clear in the movie, that could have some insight.

@BD and T & D.

The ingredients are :-

1) A juggernaut arriving at Paradise with a consignment of urns.

2) A big idea David and a small part/no part for Shaw.

They arrive on Paradise Lost.

Lets look at what would be dramatically illogical.

That David is merely a bystander.

Therefore he is wound into the story of the evolving creature they find.

That Paradise is thriving when the Covenant arrives.

No so either calamity happened as a result of David's arrival or as retribution from the hierarchy. Either could be the prologue but that takes away the mystery before the Covenant arrives but it would be visually powerful. It feels to me more like a plot point to be discovered rather  than a set up.

So what are we left with that feel definite.

Act 1 The Covenant arrives believing they have reached Paradise.

Act 2 Members of the crew explore and find disturbing evidence which needs explaining.

Act 3 Catastrophe.

Is David likely to remain in the same mode through out the three acts.

He is as likely as the W-Y in the know official to work through Protagonist/Antagonist/Redemption, simply extending his butler servant role from Prometheus makes no sense.

Of all the characters who is going to know about

Paradise Lost.

The Why the Zeno.

There may be "The Engineer" to help with the former but its difficult not to see David as a shoe in on the later.

So with so much investment in the sole survivor of Prom he will lead us down to Paradise Lost and the evolving creature.

For that reason I suspect the prologue is either

1) The reason for the Covenant Mission though I suspect that starts the first act as we get into the body of the film.

or

2) Davids' big idea (Shaw cannot be entirely ignored we must have a sense of what has happened to her) and the initial few moments of his arrival on Paradise. We see him restored and changed but its not clear how and where the Covenant are coming to, an "idyllic paradise".      

With Number 2 we get the fluidity from Prom and David's positioning and a fantastic opening visually but it is done entirely without dialogue so precisely what is going on is explained later.  

I will have to have a good read of all the information from the source and see if i can paint a picture of what those links could have been trying to set up as far as Plots, and i think its close to what Ridley came out and said prior to Alien Covenant Name Change.

As far as the new Alien Covenant then with more information we are getting, we can start to piece it together.

If Ridley means the traditional way of scripting when he brings up First Act and Third Act, as in a 3 part progress for the movie.... and his comments and if the introduce something fresh in the 3rd Act applied to AC re-write then i think we would see.

Act 1, i think we would start off as with all the franchise (aside from the Prometheus prologue) with the Covenant in space and then we shall see the Crew awaken from Cryo Sleep... (who knows if there is a Android and if they are shown being active while the Human Crew are Asleep?)

We would then get introduced to the Characters, and i think we would get some kind of Mission briefing which would give us clues to WHY the Covenant is arriving at the location of this UNCHARTED WORLD as far as what the crew know and audience will be told at this time.... i would suspect the Crew for most part are not aware of Prometheus or as far as David and Shaw being on this world.. i think they would be sent there via long range scans, or a probe that has detected a Earth like World...  but this is what the crew would be led to as far as reason they are sent there.

Then i feel they latter uncover maybe David first, or some evidence of maybe previous culture on the planet... we would see those things but what order.

I feel David will charm the crew, he would have to explain why he is there and how he got there and i am not sure he would go into too much detail.

Then maybe as he shows them ruins of the Engineer Culture he may start to talk about them.....

Act 2 starts with i think David telling them about the Engineers to a degree and i think we shall see Flash Back Scenes.....  I cant imagine a lot of what the 2nd Act would cover, but it could be study of Ancient ruins and Artifacts and i think David would mislead the crew or maybe be working with someone on the ship.

I would think maybe some find out his Agenda and are seen to......  then i think maybe this is where the Shuttle is blown up, and the crew or some are stranded.

We then see Davids Agenda, and what ever is evolving on that World... this is when things start to kick off and we end Act 2 with a Face Huger or a few.

Act 3 i think is when we would see the Chest Busters and Aliens and when Daniels realizes whats going on, and maybe also that the company was in the know... i think maybe this is where the Ship gets sabotaged.

Maybe we see something created related to the Xeno but different before the climax?

I think then we would end up seeing maybe most of the xenomorphs or similar creatures delt with and it would climax with confrontation between David and Daniels.

I would assume something from Xeno related DNA survives and David and Daniels at least... to then maybe draw us to the next movie.

THE ABOVE is just my interpretation of comments and clues so far for Alien Covenant.. which inc Facts like we shall see the Covenant Crew in the First Act.... they will find David on his own... then we have those scenes of disaster on some group of beings (over 80 of them). 

We know they would be introducing the Life Cycle... we know we see a Ship or Drop Ship Blow up, we know we see a explosion on what looks part of a larger ship (Covenant) after some event relating to the Xeno DNA, or as a attempt to prevent it.   And we did here Ridley say they are introducing a Fresh Form of the Beast in the 3rd Act....  maybe this however is regarding the earlier Paradise Lost Draft?

"3) Shaw and David will not be getting the Answers they want, what they find is truely Horrifying Agenda. "

What a bloody shame! I've been asking myself and other people the very same questions David and his crew were asking.
But that's okay, I answered them myself. As a matter of fact, I might make my own film about it!

Michelle:

Hi, yeah I also think that it is interesting that you can communicate with people all around the world. People can say a lot of things but to listen and to learn is another thing. I am fine with listening to people but that doesn’t mean that I agree with everyone just as it is in real life.

Sure it is probably difficult to decide how much you want to tell. Do you want to tell about everything or some? What is most important for people to know? Do you want them to be able to debate things or have a closed all answers in your face kind of movie. Yes it is very open and they can explore many ideas.

As far as the Weyland Yutani company that is a part that I am not very interested in but if they make it in an interesting way then sure. They could expand on their agenda and how it relates to the Xeno and also how the Engineers fit into that. Do they think that the Engineers are in the way of their agenda and how do they deal with them? Remember that the Engineers are responsible for the monsters so there got to be some connection there how ever vague it might be. Weyland had his idea about the Engineers but what about the rest of the company? Will they know what happened on LV-223 or not? How will they respond to that?

The warning signal connected to the Engineers and LV-426 is an interesting thing. I hope that they can make it interesting while at the same time keep it somewhat of a mystery, like you said we need to know why but not every detail needs to be told because then you can make your own conclusions. It seems that we agree on this one so that is cool. For example the Engineer/Space Jockey (I think that the Space Jockey was an Engineer) got chest busted so maybe they could show when the monster starts to get through his chest but we do not need to see the rest before he dies. If they just show some of it we can still make our own mental images of what exactly happened. There would still be answers that we would have to fill in ourselves like:

• What happened to the Xeno that busted the Engineer’s chest? Did it die from lack of food or what ever or does it hide somewhere in Alien (1979)? Remember that the Space Jockey ship in Alien is big so it could be anywhere really and how come that the persons in Alien didn’t meet the Alien.
• What were the exact damages that the Engineers got?
• Did the Engineers came and looking after the pilot (given that they know that he left and what mission that he had)?
• How long from his home planet did he get?
• How close to earth did he get?

You can see that there would still be answers that we would need to fill in ourselves so that could work.

“That may be the level of understanding combined with mystery you are looking for and I would be interested if I have that right.”

Exactly, that is what I am looking for and hopefully the movie will meet some of my expectations. I understand that people have different expectations on this movie so some will probably be disappointed but hopefully they will find this movie better than Prometheus. No movie is perfect, for example I like Star Wars 5 (Empire Strikes Back) but there are things in it that could have been better, the same with Alien, and so on. Hopefully the next Alien/Prometheus movie will be as good to the point that people will find it acceptable because that sure didn’t happened with Prometheus for various reasons that have been debated here a lot.

Big Dave:

That could be a possibility that Fox felt that the Space Jockey was more important but like I said I don’t have anything against that they tell that story if they do it interesting enough. As far as the connection to Alien I think that Prometheus was a failure to an extent, it doesn’t mean that they did everything wrong but they could have been clearer about the connection and they could also have made better characters. They had some things in Prometheus about the Space Jockey that were interesting but they failed to make sense about a lot of these things but that is to a big extent a mistake by Fox and maybe Scott also.

I hope that the Xeno is just a part of the total story about the Engineers. What if their home planet has huge buildings, temples with sacrificial parts where they might have prayed to the Xeno. What if they also looked at the goo as a part of a religious ceremony or something similar? Maybe they did the Xeno as a defense against what ever. I guess that these could be things that could be told about. You could really make this as interesting as the Xeno but it requires a lot of work to get it right.

As far as the fans being interested in what ever part I think that some of them are interested in maybe the Xeno, some of them might be more interested in the Engineers, about David or what ever. Sometimes you got to get people interested, which requires a good story and characters that make sense and that also can be developed (as far as good examples of character development take Luke Skywalker or how Ripley evolved from Alien to Alien 3). For example David was a good thing about Prometheus and there were things that were less good. They had some good details but missed that whole picture. This time I hope that they are thinking about the whole picture.

One thing that I am thinking about is the picture of the slayed Engineers. I wonder how that happened. This is a thing that I am looking forward to see and I hope that they will have an interesting explanation to it. Maybe this is an attempt to make the Engineers more interesting and if so that is something that I welcome. Here is the picture that I am talking about:

https://twitter.com/skymovies/status/733626395847450625/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Hopefully we will see other things that the Engineers have developed. There are many possibilities with this one so I hope and guess that they will do something interesting about it as long as it is also making sense as far as the relation to whole story is concerned.

You can have interesting monsters, great CGI landscapes or what ever but without good human characters it won’t work. David and Janek saved Prometheus in my opinion but the rest of the characters were not good. Having Shaw as a main character was a huge mistake although she wasn’t the only character that lacked a lot (take Holloway for example, duh). We can also take the mohawk guy that screamed “I love rocks!” it was either Milburn or Fifield, what did he really contribute with to the story? Did they just have him there for comical effects or what was it? This isn’t just a rhetorical question I am honestly wondering because my reaction to him was just “what ever, he is annoying”. Milburn and Fifield brought nothing to the story except for being annoying and under developed as characters. I am sorry to say it but that is how I feel about them. We can also take the woman that Shaw did tests on the Engineer head with what ever her name was, what did she really contribute to? The only reason why I remember her is because of her Scottish (not Ridley Scott, LOL!) accent but she is just another “what ever” character that doesn’t contribute very much either.

Going a bit off topic here but you could sample the “I love rocks!” and put it into a techno song, I bet that it would be fun it its own strange way. You could play it at a high pitch or low, I bet that it would be fun.

About John Logan, the only movie that I have watched that he has been involved with is Gladiator. Even though I haven’t watched that movie in a long time I remember that it is good so maybe this is for the better. Russel Crowe was in Gladiator, and also in Tenderness, which are movies that I also like.

An Ultramorph would be interesting to see but if they already have the concept painting (or what ever is the correct word for it) for it then they could use that and twist it a bit into something new. Maybe they could use the Ultramorph and make a new twist on it if it looks too similar to the Xenomorph, Like I said even monsters that are not that Xeno looking could be interesting because who is to say that the Engineers have only been involved in making Xeno monsters?

You wrote that they suggested that Prometheus had the answers but what good is it if people don’t care to watch it because they think that it lacks what ever? If many people think that Prometheus was too vague then it is better luck the next time as far as the sequel to Prometheus is concerned. There might be people that is going back to Prometheus and try to understand it but there are also many people that just won’t bother to take the time that is necessary. Nope they got to get it right this time for those that won’t bother to go back and re-watch Prometheus because it takes time and interest to do that and not all people have that time and interest.

Maybe it is good that they re-named the movie into Alien Covenant to be more clear that it is a prequel to Alien but I don’t think that the title Prometheus was a big issue compared to many other things about the movie as far as the question if it is an Alien prequel or not. As far as how they start the movie I wouldn’t mind if they start it in some other way than to have a space ship flying in space since they have already have that an X amount in the Alien movies this far (but not in Prometheus).

David’s agenda would be interesting to watch and what motivates him. Hopefully he won’t be all evil like Ash but that there are some good things about him also.

If they will make a third movie it means that some character or characters from Alien Covenant need to survive but I am not sure how that happens or where the story of Alien Covenant will end.

Ridley and the comment about a new beast: well he said earlier that the beast was cooked right? With this in mind it makes sense that they will have a fresher version of the monster.

"I wouldn’t mind if they start it in some other way than to have a space ship flying in space since they have already have that an X amount in the Alien movies this far (but not in Prometheus)."

Yes Prometheus had the Prologue and then the Shaw and Holloway with the Cave Painting finding... So it would be nice to start in some way, but i think the start of the movie is the Covenant Crew.... but this does not mean to say we wont have other scenes shortly before that like Prometheus did.

As far as Ridley and the Beast is Cooked at this time he said there would be no Xenomorphs they wont be returning..... after this is when the Source said actually the movie has not ONE but TWO Monsters Niether are the Xenomorph but both are connected... then the source said the one is based off the  Necronom 4, and how they would use unused ideas from previous movies which included Prometheus...

Ridley latter said they would then be re-introducing the Xeno in a Fresher Form..

They source after this comment, went further to say that the One Monster is based off the Unused Concept that was the Ultramorph and One Monster would be see through to a degree... now that could apply to One monster but maybe differently to both i.e One looks like the Ultramorph the other is see through, but it could be the Ultramorph is see through and no explanation to the other.

Only they both look different to each other but they both look similar to the Original Alien, One is from a New Event that David has a role in......  the other thus has to be from a past event.

They did say in other comments that Mankind (not Humans) but Mankind played a bigger role in the Xenomorph Origins.

But it seems that Alien Covenant is going to be more a Fan Service flick and i think we would see the Original Xenomorph return...  but is this as a Flash Back? Or as in the time frame of the movie?

The source did say, recently and mentioned it before also, that Once you know how the Xenomorph was created, then you can re-create it...  i dont know if this applies to Alien Covenant or what was going to happen in Prometheus 2.

Thoughts_Dreams..

Those Questions are a Mystery we dont know how long the life expectancy of a Xenomorph is...

But i can try and answer these two.

• How long from his home planet did he get?
• How close to earth did he get?

If we can take Ridleys comment on the Space Jockey, he implied that the Space Jockey was off to a undisclosed location but he did not get far before he fell victim to his cargo.

If this is to be considered true, then its a case of how far is not far? In Galactic Terms how far is not far for a Juggernaught?

30 Min Walk dont get you far, but 2 Miles is not far for a walk... 30 Minute drive can get you say 25-50 miles which is further but not far as in journey time in a Car.

So was Ridley meaning distance? or time of travel... if he means distance then the Space Jockey may have left LV-223 or some place not far.  That we have yet to see. if ever.

The destination was never mentioned... Ridleys comments as above was after Prometheus though.... so maybe the Space Jockey was not going to Earth?  Could he been going to Paradise or some other place.

Ridleys comments suggest and has is others on the subject in the past... that LV-426 was not a planned destination.

So with the clues in Prometheus and how close LV-223 and LV-426 are and connections, then it could point to the Derelict having left LV-223 but only got as far as LV-426 ... i had a theory on this but its for another subject i think i covered it before... well its 3 related theories.

One being he went into Cryo Sleep... awoke by himself and set off not knowing in the hundred years or so he was in Cryo-Sleep his cargo had evolved...  I think this is what they are going with...

The source did say that Prometheus did have lots of clues to the answers, i,e Space Jockey and Eggs. But they was vague and not explored in depth but they was in our face the whole time.

Big Dave:

It is probably alright to see new monsters but if they will not show the Xeno then they should at least show a bit of how it was made, better than they did in Prometheus. Maybe they don’t need to show the whole process but they should show enough to let us piece together one + one knowing that we could be wrong since some of the puzzle has been left out so to speak but that we understand much of it. Having an answer like this would be alright to me because it wouldn’t be extremely obvious whole at the same time it wouldn’t be as confusing as Prometheus was.

To see the new one based on Necronom 4 would be interesting. So I did a search for Necronom 4 and it looks interesting. Hopefully the unused ideas for Prometheus are good enough but seeing how Prometheus became I have my doubts not that the monsters in Prometheus sucked even though they were not better than the Xeno. Anyways it will be interesting to see what kind of monsters they will make.

As far as Ridley’s next comment about a fresher version of the Xeno it contradicts his first idea that the Xeno is done with. It just seems strange so I am not sure what he thinks.

Hopefully they will use some kind of Ultramorph or something similar to that. It would have been interesting to see how it would have looked like. My guess is that the Ultramorph was one of the good ideas that weren’t used in Prometheus but they did a lot wrong though. What if we say that the human skin would be so you could see all the muscles and so on under the skin. What if this could be used when we see the new monster? Maybe this could work eventually that is what you mean.

Maybe mankind played a big role why the Xeno was created, like the Engineers created the Xeno as a response to mankind’s growing power but that mankind wasn’t involved in creating it. I guess that this is what you mean. This could be interesting but we will see how they will make it work.

The Xenomorph in Alien Covenant, well it can be debated how much they should use it if it would be featured at all. Maybe they could use it a little but I would rather see new monsters most of the time so maybe they could have the Xeno for some minutes or what ever in the movie while they spend more time on the new ones but the new monsters must be interesting enough. Hopefully it won’t be a new born like in Alien Resurrection, that wouldn’t be very great. The newborn wasn’t a total failure it had potential but they could have changed how it acted and make it more murderous and changed a bit about how it looked like. At least they were trying something new. What is your opinion about the newborn Alien in Resurrection?

About where the Space Jockey was traveling to yes it could have been anywhere but it could have made sense for the destination to be earth if we look at the Xenos as a punishment for mankind. Maybe he wasn’t heading for earth that time but to some Engineer base or maybe a place where the Engineers had created other life forms to rule over but that they started to disobeyed so they would be punished as well as mankind would? I have nothing to back this up with, it just a thought that I have.

LV-426 seems to be a place where the SJ crash landed as far as I have understood from reading about it.

I am thinking this about the evolved things in the SJ cargo. Wouldn’t he have noticed it like if he would have seen a mark (burn like in I think it was in Alien 3)? Maybe he started to feel sick after a while and drew the conclusion that he was infected by the Alien but by that time it was too late to do anything about it.

About the eggs in Prometheus it could have been that the urns turned into eggs, but I think that has been discussed before. I am not sure how that would work in practice but in a sci-fi movie then maybe. The urns should have been something else I feel but the urns are alright. Maybe they contained some material that the Engineers did that the Engineers through some sort of scientific kick-start turned into eggs, like pushing a button when you shall get light – you push a button and the rest takes care of itself.

“The source did say that Prometheus did have lots of clues to the answers, i,e Space Jockey and Eggs. But they were vague and not explored in depth but they were in our face the whole time.”

That is one of the reasons why they failed, they felt that it was in your face but obviously much of the audience didn’t feel that way. I am not sure if we shall blame Fox or lazy writing but I think that Spaights would have answered that in a better way than what we saw on screen.

Prometheus had many interesting ideas, I got to admit that. The problem is that they were executed in such an underwhelming way so much of it (not everything) became a disappointment.

Isn't in your face another way to say that it is direct and obvious? Maybe I am mistaken but English isn't my first language but if in your face is the same as obvious then it wasn't. Sorry but they failed in many ways.

The sources claims about in your face was vague and i think they refer to what Prometheus had shown us, but i think the way they shown us was not explained.  I guess it also depends on the edit of the movie.

So by in your face, i think they mean many things which include how close LV-223 and LV-426 are located and how the Juggernaught had Chest Busted Crypods, i also think maybe how the Frescos and Mural hold key if we look at other things, the time frame of the events of the Outbreak 2000 years ago.  The Xeno DNA especially the Trilobite and Deacon.  I think visually yes there was clues that if we saw them explained more or had more time on screen with a odd comment from a Member of Cast to Narrate a bit about what is happening like Holoways "just another Tomb"  which implies the Mural is actually part of a Door to another chamber.

Maybe they meant the Answers are there also by comments made by cast members..?  Like how Janek mentioned and maybe linking that LV-223 was a place they made something they was not supposed to and they (Engineers) where not stupid enough to do so on their own doorstep.   These told us LV-223 is not the Engineers Homeworld..... before the ending where David says the Engineers did not come from there.

So yes there was clues and connections but they are half done, or vague and need you to think and then no one can really come up with the correct answers.

Few things was less ambiguous, like LV-223 being a place they created and tested such Horrid and Evil Bio-logical Warfare that they intended to use on Worlds.

Big Dave:

Alright but that isn’t what in your face means to me, to me it means that it is obvious or maybe forced down your throat so to speak, well Prometheus wasn’t that it was more like the opposite. There were answers but they were very vague. As far as the editing they might have decided to first show the scenes in a particular order but then they changed their minds so maybe that made it difficult to follow it. Why couldn’t they have decided in which sequence that they should have it before they decided to shoot the movie?

The Trilobite and the Deacon were OK but they could have been done better. I think that you wrote how the Engineer got face burns from the Trilobite and how they edited it away. My example of the movie have them left but it seems to me that there are editions that removed the face burns and if so that it totally stupid and makes it more confusing. The tomb comment didn’t make sense to me but now when you say it then it makes more sense but this is also a problem with the dialogue and how they created the characters and not only the connection to the Xeno.

You might be correct that some of the answers in the dialogue for example how Shaw said “first they created us and then they tried to destroyed us.” but that was far from enough. There has got to be a way for it to be explained better than that.

If there are connections that are half there and half not then it seems to me that they haven’t really thought about it as much as they could and to some it results in a movie that is confusing. Vague clues plus a bunch of characters that don’t really work together makes it a confusing movie to many. They should really release a movie where they explained what happened behind the scenes before they were releasing the movie, that could be interesting in itself. Since it would be a documentary you could allow different parts of the creators to give their version of what happened and what could have been better.

LV-223 was like a lab where they were testing different animals for warfare; that was kind if obvious even though that part wasn’t very much explained either. The monsters were parts that made this movie enjoyable except for the Hammerpede since I am not sure how it ties into the Xeno except for the fact that it has acid for blood. If they would have been smart they should have replaced the Hammerpede with something that would have been closer to the Xeno even though I am not sure what that would have been. Hopefully Alien Covenant will explain this better.

“Just another tomb” wasn’t very obvious to me either because I understood it as the whole place was a big grave yard maybe I can be excused since English isn’t my first language. Yes it could be the way they mentioned things. Janek’s comment about that they did something that turned on them makes sense.

Hopefully they will think things through better the next time so it fits more logically even though they don’t need to spell it all out.

Yeah im not 100% sure on what they meant by in your face, i think they mean that clues are on screen or also from when we watch the movie.

But they are very open...

So i think maybe they mean that if you "knew" where they was "going" or they show us the answers and then we look back at Prometheus we would go.... "oh i missed that"  so i think it was in a way that the answers are there but they are in a way that the Audience has a hard time to piece them together.

The source is very vague so as to not give much away, this is assuming they are telling the truth, and i think indeed the Full Shooting of Prometheus would maybe given more clues.

Or was they referring to only the theatrical release. And i am not sure if when they said this comment if they are applying it to the Xenomorph Origins, the Reason for the Xenomorph, The Space Jockey and Egg Cargo or what ever.  Its hard to see if they meant all of those had answers to a degree or just a few or one of these but never said which one.

Only the the questions left about the Space Jockey and Bio-Weapon and connection had its answers in Prometheus but you had to really look for them.

Like i said previous, could that be via dialog, could it be by the DNA connections i.e Hammerpede, Shaws Trilobite Squid Baby, could it be the Mural, Fresco, the Cryo Pod Chest Busted Engineers.

I think the source is implying that the movie had some of the answers, but like you i cant see them as in your face because to me in your face means Spoon Fed.

We see that Shaws Trilobite Baby, acts like a Face Huger, that is Spoon Fed, but we dont know if this is showing us how they came to be, or how they could etc.

If we are talking about the connection.

Here are some points they have made.

*The Xenomorph was created or influenced more by Mankind than the Engineers, well Mankind played the bigger part.  (what they meant they wont say)

*Mankind had been to that system prior to Prometheus.  (how, when and why, was never said)

*Mankind is 4th/5th Generation of our kind, and there have been Generations before, that the creators had evolved and wiped out. (what they mean, they are not clear, but i think maybe they hinted Engineers are maybe a earlier or later Generation?)

*LV-223 and LV-426 Incident are connected.

As far as the Sequel went....

*The Organism can be re-created provided you have the knowledge and tools to do so. (i think that means if David has the knowledge and tools he can re-create the Xenomorph). Thus shows how its created, but not showing how it was first created.

This would tie up loose ends for sure.

And so who knows... but i think maybe it does point to LV-223 being used for many experiments, but its all a bit vague.

The idea behind Prometheus 2 was not really to go all Xeno Origin and a Alien movie... these was maybe a small part like Prometheus but maybe have more explanation, so i think if we consider The Black Goo in Prometheus and everything that lead from it being Xeno DNA in Prometheus and its screen time, i think maybe the source was trying to say we would only see such similar smaller amounts devoted to the Organism, maybe less but the appearences would make more of a connection to the Original.

I think the movie was to give more screen time to the Engineers and reasons for why LV-223 and a little about the Agenda and Fall/Rebellion they had with their Hierarchy more than anything else.

But the source has never come out and exactly said this is going to happen or this, they had expanded loosely on a few things.... one being the Monsters we was to see, in that one was a past event, (Prior to David and Shaw leaving LV-223 or maybe prior to even Prometheus)  one was a new event that David had a hand in and was post Prometheus.   And that they are both different to each other, yet they both are similar to the Original Xenomorph..... one would be similar to the Ultramorph, Necromon iV design, and they are going to have one that is partially see through.  Again they never said if this applied to the Ultramorph or the other one.  Or if David has his hands in the Ultramorph one or the other.

So i cant be sure what they are saying, apart from the movie was to have Two Monsters, and that Two Monsters we cant be sure if they are in same timeline i.e one plays a part in the other, or if we have Two Monsters as in only 2... it could mean Two Types...

Such as Prometheus had (excluding Fifield) Two Monsters too, we had the Hammerpede and Shaws Baby.

But then there was 2 Hammerpedes, and Shaws Baby lead to the Deacon so we could say Prometheus had 4 monsters, in which case maybe Alien had 3 (Face Huger, Chest Buster and Big Guy).

Or do we take the stance that Alien had One Monster the Xenomorph and Prometheus had two the Hammerpede and Shaws Trilobite. (that lead to the Deacon as part of its lifestyle).

And so when the source said Two Monsters, it may not mean only Two but Two kinds?

But this was maybe not going to be the main focus as it was not going to be a Alien movie, only it would have clues.

But thats saying if the Source is right or True, and now we have Alien Covenant it seems a number of changes are made to bring back the Xenomorph, and even Ripley into the Picture.

Oh also as far as Two Monsters being different, and yet both similar to the Original Xenomorph... i think the same thing applies to the Fresco Creature and the Deacon at the end...

Both of those never really looked the same, but they both shared similarities to the Xenomorph.

But when they said one was similar to the Original Necromon 4 idea and unused Ultramorph, it depends which design

I think both are Awesome, and i like how light the Skin is, and i think actually something like this that is partially see through would have been Fantastic.

But i think we are going to see a more traditional Xenomorph in Alien Covenant

Which is more Mechanical looking than the previous two.

Big Dave:

Yeah that might be so but those clues could have been better. I read somewhere that there were a lot that was cut out that could have made more sense in the movie, what a pity. To me it seems they made a lot of dumb decisions when they edited it.

It could be both through dialogue and through visual things. Hopefully they will have better dialogue this time because the dialogue show a bit about how they characters are, their motivations, and so on. Prometheus could have been better when it comes to this.

The Trilobyte was cool but they could have made more of it so it could have had a stronger connection to the Face hugger. One thing that I wonder about the Trilobyte is that it was very big so wouldn’t that be a dis-advantage when it would move? In Aliens we saw something similar when Ripley said that “It was Burke” (after Ripley and Newt were rescued by Hicks and some other of the marines) but it was smaller and hence it could move faster. Are the murals and fresco different things? I am not sure, can you explain that?

When they say that mankind played a role in the creation of the face hugger it seems to me that it was created as a weapons against mankind by the Engineers. Mankind could have played an indirect role.

Hopefully they will explain a bit about how LV-426 and LV-223 are connected except for that they have similar names. They don’t need to explain that very much since I think that there are things that are more interesting. Prometheus had interesting environments so they will probably succeed in that this time also. Some people were very negative about Prometheus and complained about the worlds also but I think that is something that they managed to get right.

Maybe it would be alright to show how it could be re-created but not how it was done initially because it would keep some of the mystery. This would probably be my preferred scenario/explanation so they won’t show too much.

I am looking forward to the new monsters, hopefully one will be a see through monster. I am not really sure if all need to be connected to the Xeno because if they aren’t then it would show that the Engineers are far more dangerous since they would have the knowledge of how to make different biological weapons. Hopefully they will make the Engineers a bigger threat in the next movie but I am not really sure if you can see them as very bad since they are very human looking. The less familiar a threat is the more dangerous it becomes. Eventually this is where one of the failures with the Engineers lies that they are too similar to humans. Remember that they said that the DNA samples of the Engineer head was similar to human beings. Unfortunately that was a bad choice since it feels less threatening that way. I think that it was Shaw and another woman that took the samples. I am not sure what the name of the other character was but she probably wasn’t that important or interesting but I think that she was supposed to speak Scottish.

As far as bringing a Ripley connection I am not very interested in that. To me the Alien movies are not even about Ripley but rather about humans that get into situations that they can’t deal with very good and how they would act in a possible situation like that. Ripley could be replaced and we would still have the same kind of movie. Maybe this is to have too much of an Alien connection. Prometheus had too little so maybe this one will have too much, I don’t know.

The Engineer hierarchy might be less interesting than their agenda. Maybe a little would be explained about their society also. I mean their hierarchy as a connection between them and their Gods. As far as seeing a little bit about their hierarchy as far as how their society is organized it could be interesting to see a little about that.

Big Dave: I hope that it will not be very traditional. As far as the pictures I prefer those that have no eyes because it leaves more up to the imagination about how they can sense things.

The Trilobyte was how it was and not more like a Face Huger because it was a Hybrid between the DNA in the Black Goo Urns that has Xeno Traits and a Humans.

The Fresco and Mural dont seem to have a direct connection not one that can be made easy, but they are supposed to be connected.

The Fresco is the more interesting Mystery, the Creature featured in it, does appear to be the one holding the Egg in the other fresco.... how all this fits its open to debate... i have covered it on related Threads.

What i am interested in is how to me the Fresco was more like the Prometheus Punishment Fresco than Adam and God one, also the Alien Egg one, it is held in a similar fashion to HR Giger's pose with the Xeno Egg Prop... maybe shows us the Fresco Creature is the creator and origin of the Egg? 

But then tying into Star Beast maybe it is the Sacrifice for the Egg?  It has to be connected some how.

To me also i see the Fresco Engineer with a C-Section Scar like Shaw had...  and the way i interpret it is that something was sent down to Punish the Engineers and they or a Faction are the Prometheus, not maybe one Engineer but symbolic of all those rebellious Engineers.

Either the image shows a Punishment and Fate that connects to the Fresco, and in relation to Prometheus those Engineers will forever endure this punishment where the Eagle pecking the Liver from outside, is replaced by Something pecking its way out. i.e Chest Buster.

The C-Section?  Maybe those Host Engineers have the Organism Cut from them, and then re-stitched up to then have to go through the whole thing again.

Take Shaw.... she removed the Squid Baby Trilobite, what if David managed to Qaurantine and keep the Organism.... if he then caught Shaw and infected her Eggs again would she not become pregnant again?

And then see David C-Section the Organism and repeat the process over and over?

Like Prometheus and his Punishment over and over...

I think maybe there is a connection?

The Result of this Chest Buster, then led to something else and then experiments on this, to create different types of Face Huger in the aim of Perfection.

Which the Deacon in the Mural was, and its DNA was then seeded into the Urns... for use to then upgrade Mankind.

I think these Engineers created something or did something against the Hierarchy and was punished, but then they turned their punishment to their advantage created something new from it and used this on their Homeworld and then intended to use it on Earth?

I think something similar is what could have been happening.... thats just from the clues i had.

I will have to look at the sources clues and see what i can gain from them, but we cant take them as Fact as they could be incorrect.. even though some of those clues could fit with my ideas.

We dont know what route the movie is going as far as Alien Covenant and monsters, and how much has changed from Green and Paglens drafts... it would be interesting to find out if they are close to what the source said however?

But i do think we are going to see a more Bio-Mechanical Xenomorph close if not the same as those in Alien.