Bio Terror

@BD firstly I really think your series of posts pull it altogether and I personally do not see any flaws in your interpretations. I think on the past I am with you on the "facts", as regards the speculation on the past to take just one we cannot be sure of the precise relationship between the Engineers and the Gods. I think their gardening was sanctified but I think their subsequent reinvention's with the Black Goo with its "zeno"strain represented a fall and their actions of re-creation was not sanctified but that is because my personal faith is the Gods are ultimately benign and at the end we will all be restored after finding our own wisdom as a species, so thats a projection of my personal faith into the mythos Sir Ridley is creating.

As to the future and summer 2017 and what it will reveal. The amoral David is coming with the Goo, a negative history with the Engineers, and will break faith with Shaw. My guess right now is he discovers a broken Paradise which he can profit from. For him alone to overcome a thriving Engineer population is narratively complicated. For him to gradually reveal what he found a broken dangerous world and how he "perfected" it and played God ending with the specific Zeno cycle that we know seems likely. That to use your other analysis is Zeno/Engineer rather than Engineer/Zeno.

For the actual Zeno we know and hate to be in the past then David has to explain its origins from the deep past. That echoes that first AVP thing and for me feels repetitive. 

I would rather he allude to the Engineers Fall and the creation or theft of the zeno as a strain, which had outcomes, the Deacon, but he then acting as God King turns on his creators (the other big theme we all agree with) and adds mankind into the lifecyle through Shaw and finally our incoming crew. 

The Invitation

This is one of those items which looks like a plot hole. When the cave drawings where etched the Engineers were all powerful and we were pre history. I think they were simply saying this is where they came from and showing their superiority but the ancients did read the stars and this was simple reference. Shaws hubris was to assume that once we had the means we were to go visit putting 2 and 2 together and making 6.

In Prom. 2 we might have found early advanced mankind had visited LV223, before being redacted but from all you say thats off the plot now and its more linear and literal. I just have a feeling we do not do time travel the one argument against that which is compelling is the sequel from Officer Ripley maybe thats explained by time travel lets go back and resolve the bitch once and for all and that ability to travel through time is leant to the much later narrative.       

@Lone-

Hello thank you it's great to be back!

You know there was so much subtext in that vehicle alone. Ridley took every opportunity to mess with our heads in its presentation.

At first glance it's a basic flying saucer, a nod to vintage science fiction and a foreshadowing of the entirety of Prometheus being an homage to the golden age.

Then there's the fact that it can't sit still, it's sliding around on a cushion of energy and once you see it you can't unsee it, it's restlessness is disturbing.

It's also a great distance from the Engineer. Did it drop him off and move on to observe from a safe distance? Was he teleported there? It's epic and creepy. Already we're being told that there's as much information in what's unseen as there is in what's on view.

Then, as the Engineer drinks the liquid, the vehicle becomes erect. And seems to change shape, into a massive seed. So simple, subtle, scary, funny and brilliant all at once. This is about actions beyond human comprehension. About nothing being as it seems.

Then it floats away. They don't even stick around to observe his fate. So, so cold. I love too how you see it's arrival from the vehicles POV. Anyone else would've given you one money shot after another showing it off.

That scene is pure economy, everything that wasn't needed was excised from it. No elders. No dialogue. No explanation. All you have to do is let it sink in, and it reveals itself to you, a brilliant little silent movie that rewards deeper consideration.

It seems that flashbacks may be necessary to tell the story moving forward. If so, I hope they do it this way, as a prologue. And with no dialogue, just a quick, elegant vignette. If there are to be Space Jockeys (one can hope) , I imagine there would be no other way to express the surreal horror of their reality.

@Michelle-

There's a lot of parallels between the story beats of Alien and Prometheus, though in Alien there was more resolution, it being a self contained story.

In Alien, our heroes responded to a signal, believing it was an invitation only to discover it was a warning. With so much of Prometheus paying homage to classic concepts of science fiction in general and the Alien universe in particular, it's likely that the cave paintings were a warning. Shaw basically confirms this in a roundabout way, rather than straight exposition: "We were so wrong"...

@Aorta

"That scene is pure economy, everything that wasn't needed was excised from it. No elders. No dialogue. No explanation. All you have to do is let it sink in, and it reveals itself to you, a brilliant little silent movie that rewards deeper consideration.

It seems that flashbacks may be necessary to tell the story moving forward. If so, I hope they do it this way, as a prologue. And with no dialogue, just a quick, elegant vignette. If there are to be Space Jockeys (one can hope) , I imagine there would be no other way to express the surreal horror of their reality".

Without wishing to patronise you this sums up perfectly the dichotomy for Ridley Scott in the reaction to Prometheus. Like you and a couple of friends who have discussed this in detail we love the films for the kind of film making you describe and I hope that elements of A C will retain the same economy but I am sure you are aware that many find the opening scene confusing.

As an example I for one do not mind if the Gods relationship with the Engineers remains enigmatic and mysterious BUT that we see explained the history of the Zeno strain and how the life cycle we see in A L I E N came about.

On the question of Shaw and we were so wrong, for me I connect that desire to explore and find out the consequences as yet another example of "Playing with fire". Peter Weyland's vain glorious attempt for immortality and Elizabeth's Shaw's search for Paradise were part of the same incautiousness and hubris neither were attempting to do this to enrich mankind but they were on the same road trip "playing with fire". Shaw's journey on the croissant to Paradise with David is an extension of that incautiousness and the fact that she will "not remain the same" as a result of that decision seems appropriate to me. If in the end radically transformed she becomes the saviour of mankind through sacrifice that would for me powerfully connect two key themes together and represent an elevation in the story telling 

To the Black Goo.

As we know one of the big themes of Prometheus expounded by the initial scene is the concept of sacrifice. One thing others have alluded to in these current discussions and probably at the time of its release is the notion that the christ like Deacon mural also represents sacrifice and that in the same way the Engineer from the opening scene breaks down and passes out into the life blood of the planet as a catalyser and re orgnaiser of DNA so might the Deacon have operated in the same way and the "vases" and the embedded head (like a skull) represent the distillation of the strain and a memorial to that dark sacrifice.      

Great to see you back Noob/Aorta! Though i haven't been around much myself recently either. And yes, that topic you started about renaming the alien was fun! Can't remember what the topic was titled as though?

"Why go to such lengths when any culture that could produce such a thing could easily come up with any number of less baroque alternatives?" - Aorta.

I have often pondered this question myself. Why not just create an arsenal of nuclear bombs? One possible explination could be that they create these ORGANIC weapons of mass destruction as they don't want to ruin the planet itself with concentrated energy that would leave that planet un-habitable because of the radiation.

Another possibility is your Bio-Terror explination, I like it a lot. I personally believe that the Morb/Giger Alien was used by the Gods or Engineers? To rain hell on the civilisations that they once seeded. To terrorize, torture and punish certain civilisations, which raises the question, what did we do that was so bad to deserve being punished by means of terror and torture?

On a slightly different note, I'm really hoping that Alien: Covenant will show us that the Alien was the very first creature to come into existence after the creation of the universe and the engineers came across it or its remnants millions of years ago and harnessed its genetics or back engineered it. Or, just leave the why's, who's and when's a mystery.

Great topic btw!

As far as a ideal Bio-Weapon if we assumed the Engineers were Millions of years more advanced then all you would need is to create a Virus that can spread fast but only targets a certain Genetic Strain i.e Humans/Primates.

Drop this to earth and its bye bye Mankind.

So we dont quite know yet who the Xeno Bio-Weapon was intended for, it may have been for the Rogue Engineers?

Ridley had alluded to how Mankind made the Gods Angry and how they may have destroyed life on Earth  a number of times before.

Many Cultures have described the Gods destroying life a number of times too.... A common one was the Deluge/Flood.

When we are trying to work out WHY?  in Prometheus there is not much of a Answer.... Ridleys comments however did provide a Answer and that was that we had started to behave in a way that was against the Engineers desires and they sent down a Emissary to try and change our ways but we Crucified him...

We dont have to take this as a Literally Christ Space Jesus... we can ignore that but look at in detail and then the Biblical reasons for Gods attempts at our destruction and even Greek Mythos and we have these reasons.

*Mankind had gained forbidden knowledge not meant for us.

*Mankind started to not worship God and started to worship things and do things that were offensive to God.

*Mankind started to gain pride in itself and our own needs and indulgences and only looked after our own desires and wishes.

*Mankind had not stuck to the Rules that God had given us.

*Mankind had started to try and play God ourselves.

These are all sufficient reasons for them to Pull the Plug, all the Gods where doing is exactly the same as what John Connor was trying to do in Terminator 3. That was pull the Plug on the Machines before they could rise and overthrow or rebel against Mankind.

@N4-

Hello, good to hear from you! The topic was titled 'Xeno Schmeano!'.

I also like to think that the Morb is truly ancient, that the liquid is possibly waste from the forge of reality itself, and something found it, and managed to capture a sample. It fits for me because it echoes the more primitive efforts of Weyland to do the same thing. 

That would make a great prologue, the Engineer's or SP's first encounter with the Morb, or the Liquid. 

@Michelle-

Yes many found the opening scene to be confusing, but I wonder how many were just jumping on the Troll Wagon because it's more fun to just trash everything everyone else is trashing. 

It's true that one had to use their imagination to decipher what was happening there, but really, is it that hard? Please. And if you have to think about anything, how nice that it's something so unique. And besides, it makes sense that it's somewhat inexplicable, these are extraterrestrial beings. People are going "oh no, it's not the Space Jockey" and then they go " oh no, it doesn't make any sense" Make up your minds! Do you think anything a Space Jockey does is gonna make sense?

But I digress. We should really start a new debate thread about that scene alone. I think it has relevance to the new movie.

OMG DOUBLE POST

Yes as far as the Goo it would be interesting to find out if we will get more information on it.

The Source which we cant not take as serious unless the movie backs up what they said.... or we get a release of the earlier drafts.  They claimed this about the Goo.

They said it was a Forbidden Fruit/Fire/Knowledge and a Tool to the creation of everything living... a Tool intended to be used under Permission of the Hierarchy and Engineers are tasked to use it with their consent.

Using the Tool in a way not intended can lead to disastrous consequences, and using the Tool against the Wishes of the Hierarchy results in Punishment for this Theft.

And basically play with Fire and you get Burnt.

I think we need to look at it that the Origins of the Goo, its uses and Knowledge of its uses that the Hierarchy to the Engineers had.... if Mankind possessed this Tool/Knowledge we could then become as Gods ourselves.

They did say that Fire and Stone touched upon in some way not what exactly happens to LV-223 or the Goo, but what potentially could happen all the same.

As far as Engineers, they hinted that they was Punished, but this Punishment released them from Bondage in the same way that the Punishment and being thrown from Paradise by God allowed the Fallen Angels such freedom....  also how in Paradise Lost some of the Fallen Angels where changed to Serpents.

As for the MORM/XENO while we cant be sure how Ancient it is..... the Organism and Method that its Progenitor was created would indeed be very Ancient

We could maybe look at the LV-223 Engineers as being maybe like Weyland and what End Game Intentions he and the company would have wanted if they could gain all the knowledge and technology of the Engineers.

We would reverse engineer, re-engineer and manipulate this to our own End...

Xeno Shmeano! That was it, great topic.

@Dave; "They claimed this about the Goo. They said it was a Forbidden Fruit/Fire/Knowledge and a Tool to the creation of everything living... a Tool intended to be used under Permission of the Hierarchy and Engineers are tasked to use it with their consent."

This actually makes a lot of sense and could explain 1) Why the goo in the opening scene is different from the goo on LV223. And 2) Why the goo on LV223 turned on the engineers. It also ties in with the Prometheus myth.

Lets say, an hierarchy, which we have not yet seen, created the goo with good intentions, to create life but upgrading/evolving life was forbidden. But, a rouge element of the engineers (or one particular engineer) decided to take some of the goo to upgrade humanity.

The punishment for this theft of the fire/forbidden fruit resulted in the hierarchy changing it from a tool of creation into a tool of death which the rouge element were unaware of until it got out and destroyed them.

@BD-

Yes, this brings us back to punishment, or even revenge, which may be programmed into the Liquid itself. Tampering would bring dire consequences. Possibly the Engineers understood this, and possessed science that would enable them to get further than most in subverting it's functionality to their whim.

For me, Morb describes any physical manifestation of this idea. I agree that whatever was first encountered was likely the first order of Morb, and the ones we've seen so far are descendants of that DNA. 

@ BD "They said it was a Forbidden Fruit/Fire/Knowledge and a Tool to the creation of everything living... a Tool intended to be used under Permission of the Hierarchy and Engineers are tasked to use it with their consent.

Using the Tool in a way not intended can lead to disastrous consequences, and using the Tool against the Wishes of the Hierarchy results in Punishment for this Theft".

For me this is the kind of thematic positioning that the film makers will retain whatever the narrative chosen.

The catalyser (opening scene) is a rare and precious gift of the Gods to be used by the Engineers.

There is a fall and it surrounds the application and use of the Goo.

In any of the plot outlines discussed this seems to me a universal truth, a strategic view of matters. The question at a tactical level is how did the virus/zeno strain get into the catalyser was it on LV223 and taken to Paradise or vice versa thats for me where the mythos needs to be fleshed out through David who can tell quite quickly the story of the fall. Another way is a fantastic emblematic opening scene which shows the crucial moment when the     zeno strain was stolen acting in the same manner as the opening of Prom.

As far as the planned attack on Earth armed with the Black Goo, the Engineers took it up themselves in an unauthorised action to redact mankind "because they could" and they did not like what their creations were up to. That shows in itself a lack of genuine authority because they were considering a "before you can create you must destroy" whilst they were in the middle of an uncontrollable plague. Hardly a "God sponsored moment".

Zeno strain verses Zeno. 

I think were I am veering off from a number on this is the story so far is about the strain. We have seen a good deal of its impact in Prometheus and we know wedded to an Engineer (who shares our DNA) it produces a Deacon.

The big one now is are we :-

1) About to see a Zeno for the first time with the what why and how.

2) The story cocooned in time travel or flash back or 

3) An ancient creature released set free in an unscheduled, from the Gods point of view, act.

If its one and the bio mechancoid element is part of its make up then its desire to bring pain and humiliation (@ Aorta) makes perfect sense. By taking the victim and transforming it through its deadly serum and convert it under hideously painful circumstances into an Egg equally feels like punishment on the creator by the created.   

"You will become the engine of your undoing."

The once deleted scene from ALIEN which was re-introduced in the ALIEN DC, shows us that the alien is a creation of torture and pain. It terrorises the crew of the Nostromo, slowly picking them off one by one. Raping Lambert and making Dallas suffer a slow, probably painful transformation into more misery. So yes, this thing is not just a destroyer, it is a bringer of pain and misery.