Human to Alien morphing in Alien: Covenant and Black Goo effects on Male vs. Female hosts

Michelle J:

"Incidentally if my theory that mankind's direct involvement triggered the Zeno strain is correct it was a mistake to make him into an un-relatable mutant."

I think that was one of the bad things about this movie. They could have used the more Xeno like version and it would have made so much more sense (the Alien connection would have been clearer) and also it looks way better than the Zombie version. My guess is that they thought that it would be more of an alien prequel in the beginning but then for some reason they changed their minds and one of the results was the Zombie. While Zombie movies are fine (many of them) having the Fifield version that we were given didn't make sense which is one of the things that I don't like in this movie.

A lot of time when I see the Zombie in Prometheus I just think "well that was a mistake". Maybe they will use something that is close to the Fifield Xeno in AC, we'll see. Perhaps something could happen to one of the Covenant crew members that would turn him or her into something similar to the Fifield Xeno?

By saying something similar to the Fifield Xeno I mean something that is very angry, fast, and extremely deadly and that is closer to the Xeno.

@T_D 

I think there a number of ways they could go from Mankind to Zeno in C O V E N A N T but if this a suspenseful fast paced movie it needs to be very clear story telling. If we are having the hugger back and the big guy and a new event then two strands of evolution revealing Shaw and Davids input is plenty. 

@Charza

Some interesting things and yes this has been discussed before and we really dont know what the MORB Origins where... they was vague in Prometheus. It left many possible outcomes and i think Alien Covenant will attempt to draw us down a path that would help us to narrow down the Origin....  While the Engineers may have created the Xeno or a Strain that leads to the Xeno...  we still dont know the Original Organisms that the Xeno/Deacon and Black Goo in Urns DNA all trace their Origins through ORIGIN

The Starting Point....  do we have

1) A Xenomorph as the starting point, or a related Organism that the Xenomorph is a Evolution of.

If so.....

2) Is the Xenomorph or the Original DNA something created? or is it from some Natural Organism the Engineers found... and experimented on?

or

3)Something the Engineers were tasked with Pro-creating i.e was the Original Ancestor to the Xenomorph something the Engineers where tasked with being used as Sacrificial Hosts (Alien Mural that was unused could fit with this).

expanding this..

4) Could some related Organism had created and used the Engineers for this purpose... is the Organism above the Engineers related to the Xenomorph DNA as we are to Engineers... (this fits in with Star Beast).

5) Or is it simply a mistake, a using of the Sacrificial Goo lead to something not expected, something had gotten infected that was not intended and the result was the Origins that lead to the Xeno strain.

6) Was the strain, or organism created for the sole purpose of a Bio-Weapon, but then experimented on... or was it used latter as a Weapon?

These are all possible....  as it is we cant be sure which one it is... they can all fit in with it...

We could have it that for some reason the Hierarchy produce the Xeno or Related Organism and Engineers are required for Sacrifices, but they rebelled and Mankind was created or the Engineers created them to take their place as Sacrifices... (Pretty similar to the Annunaki and Igigi story only instead of being used to mine for Gold, the Agenda is used for Sacrifice).

The above maybe the Hierarchy are Genetically related to the Organism... i.e like Star Beast

Or could the Organism Ancestor to the Xeno had been used as Punishment or a result of Punishment?

Hopefully Alien Covenant will help to narrow it down.

Sometimes the simple answers are the best however... and there has been more clarity from Ridley and also the name of the movie Prometheus and its sequels planned Paradise Lost are not to be taken as namesakes.

This could be the CLUE in our Faces..

Lets look at Ridleys comments regarding the Xenomorph.... and sorry this has gone off Topic from what the Goo does to Male and Females.

*The Xenomorph, or at very least  a related strain of DNA is used as a Bio-Weapon, however its purpose is also to create from destruction...

*The Engineers (on there own or by order of the Hierarchy) created the Xenomorph.... or at very least the Evil Biology that gave rose to the Xenomorph

*The Experiments on LV-223 are very related to the Process that could eventually lead to the Xenomorph.

*The Biology that leads to the Xenomorph may not have been Bio-Mechanical as it was in Alien, the Origins may have been more Organic but something that made the 1979 Alien Bio-Mechanical and we could be finding out what.

*The Derelict and Juggernauts are used to carry Experiments and biology that is the purpose of destruction or replacement.

We dont know the reason for it, Prometheus hinted that it was intended to destroy or replace us which comes with a Question Why, and why was we created in the first place..... i think Alien Covenant would attempt to answer this... but maybe Prometheus gave clues but maybe again they are so ambiguous that we cant work out if they are coincidence, or clues or red herrings.

The Mural and Frescos again never really explained... they only show us..

*There is a Genetic Connection between the Deacon Mural, the Fresco Creatures and the Xenomorph DNA.

*The Organism or strain of DNA is at very least praised by those Engineers on LV-223 but we cant figure out exactly why as its left ambiguous... but i dont think they worship it because its above them or God.

Prometheus Mythos....

In a nutshell is about a Faction of Godlike beings Rebelling against there fellow kind and creators... in which Prometheus had sided against his creators, and then he also sided with his brothers creations... where ever there was rebellion via Father/Son Creator/Creation... he had always taken the side of the Creation.

He played a role in the creation of Mankind, and he had Stolen Fire of the Gods, he had taught Mankind and helped Mankind to Evolve to levels that the Gods had forbidden.

For this he was Punished..... a Eagle was sent down to Eat his Liver and it would re-grow and he would have to endure this Punishment over and over (but he was freed from it one day).

Paradise Lost Mythos....

Shows us again a sub-creation no longer seeing the reason to serve their God, a Rebellion against their creator of which the Rebellious Lucifer was punished and banished from Gods Kingdom.

God created Man, in the hope that this New Creation would serve God, faithfully without Question...

Lucifer once the symbol of Gods Perfection is replaced by Adam, Jealous he intends to Corrupt Mankind, by giving us Forbidden Knowledge... (Freewill)  he (Satan) attempted to destroy the Will of Man, so that Man could Question God and the devotion to God... this worked as Man started to be loyal to Woman and not God.

Man was punished and thrown out of the Kingdom of God, and Man was told that at latter times Mankind would face a lot of Turmoil and Punishment for its Rebellion and Sin against God.

Lucifer's Punishment was that he was to give birth to Sin his daughter a Mutant Serpent/Humanoid who is in perpetual labor with horrid monsters.

A number of the Angels who sided with Satan where Punished and mutated into Serpents.

 I think we cant not rule out these when we are trying to work out what is going on.

And so i think that the Fresco shows Prometheus Element, that was Punished by the Hierarchy and this Punishment had led to something that was the Origins to what became the Xenomorph.

This Punishment of the Rebellious Engineers, did not punish them all and eventually the Engineers came to Worship this Punishment as its results lead to something else.... which they they experimented on until they ended up with the Deacon... and they then decided to use this Punishment on them as a means to Punish their creators.

@BD 

The Prometheus myth was played out in the movie its there for all to see. We just do not know precisely how it happened e.g. how did the Black Goo become bad news. 

The Paradise Lost Myth and the breaking of the Covenant will be explained in the movie. We just do not precisely what the fall was and how retribution was applied and how David will use that situation. Hopefully the movie will explain it all.   

Your right you can over think things or not separate out the confusing detail from the strategic narrative. We need more clarity in A. C. then we can rest our minds. 

Michelle J: I agree about clear story telling if the movie is fast paced. To me pacing is maybe third or fourth, having good characters and a good story are the most important things.

Yes they should explain some things but on the other hand it doesn’t have to be equal to explaining something to a three year old where you have to be extremely clear and cover point 1-10 in a ten piece story but rather explain point 1-3 very clear 7-9 a bit more vague while not explaining 4,5,6, and 10 because you can figure that out by having a very good background from the parts that you have very good explanations to but that is what I think that they failed with in Prometheus.

Everything wasn’t bad about Prometheus really but it could have been so much better. These are things that you can fill in about the Xeno let’s say if you really try but some things should stay ambiguous in order for it to stay interesting, Alien managed to do this but then it has good characters which Prometheus mostly hadn’t.

About David’s and Shaw’s input I am very interested in what role David has in it all. I am less interested in Shaw but maybe they have done her into a better character this time (which really shouldn’t be a very complicated thing to do, LOL).

Indeed we really dont know what the exact connection is apart from Rebellion seems a common theme, and knowledge that was not intended to be used or for the eyes of the lower chain in the Hierarchy this is a common theme.

Prometheus (Higher caste of Gods) helped and sided against his fellow higher caste, by siding with Zeus a lower cast off spring of the 12 Titans.... he then also betray Zeus in favor of the next lower caste to the Olympians... The Tier as in Titans ==>Olympians ==> Humans.

Where perhaps stolen knowledge and tools had been used against the will of the Hierarchy.

Paradise Lost (Lucifer) again a lower cast of Gods (Angels) under God, and Lucifer Rebelled and lead a 3rd of Angels to follow him and Rebel against God...  Latter Mankind was created and Satan then also interfered in a way that Mankind had now also Sinned against God.

God===>Angels ===>Mankind

And so Prometheus and Lucifer are kind of connected... so can Enki in the Sumerian Mythos.

And so there is a pattern, and i would not be surprised if this pattern is loosely followed..... but we dont have to literally consider them.... i.e God as in One God... instead he could represent a Hierarchy of Gods.   and like wise Prometheus... he does not have to represent One Titan...  but could represent a faction ==> Fallen Angels.

I would not be surprised if such things are connected.

A interesting thing to me is when the Source claims that without Sin as in context of Paradise Lost there would be no Xenomorph.... and they also said that the Punishment of certain Fallen Angels to become Serpents in Paradise Lost should play out as freedom from bondage in relation to Prometheus 2

They also hinted that indeed Prometheus Punishment is very connected.

And so maybe they mean Sin as in the daughter born from Satans Head, who Guards the Gates of Hell as is cursed with constantly being Pregnant with Hounds of Hell who cause her Entrails to be torn over and over... she gives birth to Hounds of Hell who are part serpent and who Guard the Gates of Hell.

She could be connected in context with Greek Mythos to Echidna and so the Greek Echidna  and Paradise Lost Sin could be inter changeable

And maybe its via that where we get our ANSWERS?

If we assume Prometheus/Satan are the same in context to the Plot.... then yes Sin/Echidna  could also be the same... and her offspring are the Hounds of Hell in both cases.

And so if the Engineer in the Fresco is Prometheus who is punished and gives birth to something from this punishment and this Organism is then the Mother to the Xeno Origins... maybe this could tie in the Fresco?

Maybe the Eagle is the Daughter? as with Satan Sin was born as Punishment for Satans Sins...

Just a thought and its what the Sources comments seem to be steering me towards.

How do we get from the beginning of the movie to LV223.

Breaking of Bondage 

The Engineers rebelled against their role as sacrificial victims and sought to replace themselves (The Sumarian Legend). 

The creating of the life cyle was meant to free them from bondage. Egg>Facehugger>Engineer>New Sacrificial Outcome.

The experiments are shown in the fresco (one version) and the mural (another version) and thats not to deny the connections you made. However what they created, after attempting to refine their experiments, in error was the Deacon, whose sacrifice created the Black Goo and lead directly to the retribution on the LV223 population. In this outcome the Black Goo is now a mutagen and tainted by the mistake and echoes the Paradise Lost notion. Turning the Engineer hosts into Deacons.

The fall was deepened and made more terrible by the vain glorious decision to re order their achievements (in order to create you must destroy) and head off to earth, mercifully self inflicted retribution destroyed that notion. Play with fire and you get your fingers burnt. 

Echidna could be the role model for Shaw and the sin is to corrupt her capacity for reproduction so she delivers the Eggs which with David's input leads to the Bio Mechanical Outcome.

We need to think that a lot of the ideas of Prometheus Pandemonium have survived but in a more connected fashion so the connection with the over arching themes are there but in a more personal and connected Loganised way, to leave Shaw out of  the big event seems unlikely (she is technically alive). As you may recall I am very big on the ten years being significant in giving the timeline to achieve this outcome. 

The big one for me is when did Paradise Fall, before or after Davids arrival. Given LV223 happened 2000 years ago I am expecting him to stumble on a dead world which will yield up its secrets to him so he has the tools and knowledge of how to deal with the evolving creature and create a new event. (What if David comes across a deacon which has survived the holocaust of the temple scene (Engineer>Deacon echoing P L)  

For a fast paced movie to pick up big ideas as it goes along does not need over complicated side stories just well executed exposition and Ridders superb visual flashes akin to the beginning of Prom.          

I think a good deal of where the source is pointing you is where we are going and indeed where we have gone. Its fun to speculate (The Zeno is the God head or another race the Engineers were fighting ) but The Engineers stole the fire and fell. The result was there own destruction and the creation of the Zeno strain which is evolving. Why did they fall to release themselves from Bondage how did the fall manifest itself, sub creation and then decision to re order (because you can).       

@BD Building on the theme of simplicity here is another fundamental marker. 

Before Prometheus was made Ridley had reached a point where a Space Jockey was setting out with a cargo of Eggs set the cargo down on LV426, set off a beacon to keep away and was chest busted. Whether the flight of the Juggernaut began with aggressive intensions and changed his mind we may never know. I know we can get side tracked by other theories but thats Ridley indeed it has alway been a bomber with a cargo for the longest of times.

What we know is there a relationship between the SJ and the Alien Life cycle. 

However at this point mankind was not in the picture.

Two things happened in Prometheus.

We saw evidence that the Engineers/Space Jockeys subjugated themselves to the lifecycle and created a Deacon. Indeed we saw it real time as well, done invasively rather than consensually with mankind/goo initiating the food chain.

We saw the revelation that we are them they are us.

We know an infected human creates a Bio Mechanical Alien.

A C only has to provide us with two answers :

1) How was the Egg created (we have seen one extra curricular method). Shaw is one/ creates them bringing female procreation start up to the party ?

2) Why it is Bio Mechanical. (we can take a very good educated guess and Ridley has dropped substantial hints).

The only other missing part of the jigsaw is to explain the exact nature of the Engineers fall, and in the context of their creators, and the precise punishment meted out on them. Curiously this could be left as conjecture through David and survivors set out to find the answers in the final film. Whoever survives they cannot return to Earth unless their intel rather like the Ark of The Covenant is known only to a handful in Weyland Yutani which might spring board the knowing enquiry in A 5.  

Put simply I think we can see how the big picture will evolve as the fast passed horror filled narrative moves forward what will be fascinating is to see how its left for the next one.        

Indeed Michelle a long time ago, the theory of us being used as Sacrifices is something i considered too, a lot on here was wondering is the Agenda for Mankind that we was to be used and created purely for Xenomorph procreation so as that all that remained was Eggs and this is what the Engineers wanted. 

I was not so sure on mass scale of that, but indeed i did feel at some point Engineers could have been used as part of a Sacrificial Role to Procreate Xenomorphs,  and the HR Giger Face Huger Concepts and his Alien Mural seemed to hint at those beings Sacrificing there own kind for this purpose..

Which then ties into Star Beast, only in this the Top of the Hierarchy is a Creature that Procreates itself.... using Sacrificial Animals.   And not Sacrificing each other as we see in Gigers Concept works... but taking this into account with the Annunaki Tale.

Led me to the same kind of conclusion that you made... this is that Engineers may have created something else to replace them as Sacrifices (Mankind)

The reason for this and order we have to wonder was it

*Engineers (or faction) creating Mankind to replace them as Sacrifices thus freeing them from doing so...

*Hierarchy above the Engineers, creating Mankind to perform the role that Engineers (before Rebellion) was intended for.

And so yes this could be a valid reason for whats going on.... but we still dont know if this is TRUE then WHY!

What purpose or importance is the Xenomorph to them.

There is off course conflicting clues and information that suggest otherwise..  It seems that the Xenomorph may had been just a Weapon... and a Weapon created from the Evil-Biology they possessed but we still dont know how and why...

This is one thing that is still very open....

Although Ridley did kind of hint it was in re-action to Mankinds misbehaving and rebellious nature towards the Engineers.

But that does not rule out the Xenomorph being  something created in general thousands of years prior as a Weapon and not something created only to deal with the Threat of Mankind.

The source did a while back bring up the Xenomorph as a way to deal with a threat and also punishment... but they also said Mankind played a bigger role in the Origins than Engineers.

Again they are always  ambiguous and not direct and so that could mean anything. Does not have to mean Mankind created the Xeno.... Ridley said they created it (Engineers) but then he refereed to the Evil Biology and so the Engineers role could have been just the Tools that led to its creation.

As i said with the Sources comments about how in relation to Paradise Lost..... Without Sin there would be no Xenomorph

Which likely means two things... i touched upon the first above in another post

*Sin as in Satans Daughter, Born from his head as Punishment and Sin is constantly Pregnant and giving birth to horrific hounds who guard the gates of hell.

*Sin as in rebellion and going against the Will and Rules of God, the act of committing Sin resulted in a action as Punishment.

But this latter point in regards to the Paradise Lost, could mean Original Sin and the First Sin was that of Satan and then his followers (Fallen Angels) of which many where cast out and punished and changed to Serpents.

So the Origin of the Xenomorph is maybe from what the Source (if correct) was suggesting as a reaction to disobeying God and then resulting Punishment.

Be that....

* Satan gives birth to something (sin) that is then the Mother of the Xeno Origins.

* Fallen Angels are mutated into Monsters that lead to the Xeno Origins.

So if i assume this is what they was meaning then the Punishment was sent down for a purpose.... but this Punishment backfired in that it created something Horrid.... that perhaps others then used to their advantage?

Indeed prior to Prometheus Ridley had mentioned the Space Jockey a number of times and as time went on his story evolved.....

*Originally it was a Mystery but they was going for the Space Jockey being a Pilot who was carrying a deadly cargo of Eggs... with no explanation.

*This soon evolved into the ship being a Bomber or at least a Cargo Ship for Bio-Weapons and the Space Jockey got infected with his Cargo and set off a SOS Warning.

*Ridley then mentioned this action was heroic or benevolent.... however is this only regarding the safeguards of his own Race.

*Ridley then said the Derelict had been there for maybe thousands of years.

Then we got the Prequel.... starting with Spaights his story may or may not have (Red herring) shown us the Engineer in that draft ended up being the Space Jockey but the time frame was not far prior to Alien and his intentions seemed Hostile to Mankind and also the Beacon was different.

We then got Prometheus where they was stepping away from the Space Jockey but trying to give some clues. However Ridley did expand on the Space Jockey in comments.

*The Ship was a Bomber, its purpose similar to that of the Juggernaught.

*The Derelict Technically never crashed.

*The Derelict was off to a undisclosed location but it did not get far, before the pilot was infected and then he had to attempt to land and Quarantine the cargo and warn his fellow Race.

*The event had occurred within a few hundred years of the outbreak that killed off nearly all the Engineers on LV-223 (thus 1800-2200 years ago).

His latest comments are just the same as above but he added that something in the Cargo Hold Evolved and it got to the Space Jockey.

So all hints was this event was prior to Prometheus and Alien Covenant but we cant be sure if they will change that now as whats not shown on Film can not be taken as Canon and can be changed.

"However at this point mankind was not in the picture"

As far as recent time yes, i.e after the Engineers stopped visiting us and to the time Prometheus Mission landed on LV-223

The earliest comments the Source made, was that Prometheus was not the first time Mankind had been to that system (assume is Zeta 2 i.e LV-223 or LV-426).

Other comments regarding Mankind was that we as of now and 22nd century are 4th/5th Generation of our kind and Evolution of Mankind is not how Darwin had suggested.

They hinted that previous Generations had been wiped out by God, and that sometimes to create one must destroy.

And so i can only assume that they was hinting at Mankind Evolving from Engineers or something related and not a Ape.....   and maybe one of these earlier Generations had been involved in Rebellion and intended destruction and maybe also been to the LV-223 system prior.

We certainly need to ask why did LV-223 have a Big Head Statue was it for self worship and to showcase what these Engineers Achieved and then throughout Ancient Mankind was we left clues to that System. It certainly was not a invitation.

So we still cant rule out how deep or what role Engineers interactions with Ancient Mankind went... or if Mankind or some of us where ever taken from Earth to that system in the past... or did we originate from there.

Ridley also said the Sacrificial Scene did not have to be Earth its just how they did things.. This leaves it very open for us to ask..... Was Earth the only place they seeded Mankind or indeed Humanoid life in their own image?

Maybe the Answers is with regards to Paradise Lost..... Ridley said the Poem has a similar tone etc but thats where it ends... 

So its not a case of God a powerful being who lives in Heaven above the Earth, created Angels, created one Angel as Perfect that the others who Rebelled and was cast out of Heaven and to Hell.... Then God created Man (Adam) placed him in Paradise, in the Garden of Eden... then he gave Adam a companion Woman (Eve)

Satan had plotted to get revenge on God for being thrown out of Heaven/Paradise by corrupting Gods new favored Creation Mankind.    Which resulted in the eating of  the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge and saw Mankind banished from the Garden and Paradise and have to Dwell and Toil the Earth.

Mankinds Fall would pay a heavy price, Mankind will thrive on the Earth and Rebel and do things against Gods Will over and over, and they would get punished for this over and over... but in the future Adam is told that there would be someone who would Sacrifice themselves so that Mankinds Curse would come to a end.

Satan and his Fallen Followers are also kicked out of Paradise and are punished by being turned into Serpents.

This is Paradise Lost in a Nut Shell....  but i dont think we would see a Literaly retelling but in what i have put above has to in some context play a role...   Key themes are.

Creation, Creation seeing itself as not inferior to Creator and Rebellion, then Punishment and further Creation a new... and repeat of the same cycle.

By not going literal... the Source did claim such and that events of Paradise Lost and Bible did happen, just not in exactly the same context as we assume... as far as being a event that happened to Mankind but rather Past Generations and that Paradise is not located on Earth as in context to the Bible and Paradise Lost.

So i think this means the Scope is further than Heaven being a place in the clouds and Paradise being a place on Earth and Hell being place under Earth..... as literally they are represented as such in Ancient Culture.

Prometheus had shown us Paradise is actually another World far from Earth....

So i think we also need to look at Key themes...

Creation, Rebellion, Sub creation and Punishment.

And as far as Sin and Rebellion it seems to stem from having Knowledge that is not intended, Satan did not see himself as being in superior to God (maybe as David sees Mankind) The Angels were intended to only see God as all powerful and to worship and obey him and only him. And to know their intended place in all of creation...

Satan was the most perfect of his creation, but he had pride and saw himself as being perfect and started to see why should he worship God, why should they (Angels) live under the rules of God, Satan saw the Angels as having more potential than merely being Gods servants.

After a Rebellion and War... God chose to create Mankind... a new Race who would then worship, and obey God and see only God as supreme.

It was only after Satan tricked Mankind to eating from the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge (of Good and Evil) that this was seen as a Sin by God.... we have to assume this Gave to a degree a kind of Freedom of Will, this Knowledge must in itself had given Mankind something not intended... that there is no way back from.

Maybe Satan was given such Knowledge by God, that allowed Satan to view himself as no longer Servant to God and that God is not as powerful a being.

And so Knowledge is key.......

If we look at context of David 8 a Android who would be created to serve Mankind in every way... such as Data from Star Trek,  Androids who can never Question Mankind, always have to Serve them...

But if their programing was changed or evolved to such a way that they (Machines) saw little reason why mankind are superior and why they should Worship and Obey Mankind....   We see Seeds of this with David and indeed a Evolving Android Population who become sentient could lead to Rebellion such as we see in Terminator, and The Matrix

And so again its certain Knowledge... that can lead to Rebellion.

I think this is the Core Theme...... that Rebellion and Punishment and Fall comes from...

In context to Paradise Lost.... Punishment we are given details of future punishment against Mankind, by Flood, by Fire etc.

But the Originally Sinners was Lucifer and his Fallen Angels and there Sin was to be kicked out of Paradise and also to be turned (or a portion) into Serpents... Satan would also give birth to a Daughter from his Head (which he forgot about) and she would remain at the Gates of Hell, Pregnant constantly with Horrid Serpentine Hell Hounds.

And so while in context of Paradise Lost.... Sin is a disobeying of God, by having Knowledge and Freewill to see that creation can be its own King, and to not have to idly follow and serve God.  This Knowledge leads to Freewill and leads to Rebellion or doing things God never intended

And so in context of Punishment... we do see references to Biblical Punishments... Fire and Floods, and Plagues.

But as far as the Fallen Angels... it is to be kicked out of Paradise/Heaven and Banished... but then also Mutated into Horrid Serpents.

We are not talking Literal though as far as Prometheus 2 was.... and Alien Covenant.... but i think the key themes are important.

And in context to the Xenomorph... who had been referred to as Serpent and Dragon... of which Satan is referred to also.

I think its maybe CORRECT to Assume in Context of Paradise Lost that Serpents and Xenomorph are connected.

And so the reason for them has to be connected to the Fall and Rebellion which stems from Forbidden Knowledge not intended to possess...

How this connects however... could be a number of ways.

@BD Yes that covers the wider set of conjectures but to clarify my point about their being no connection to mankind was in the context of the drama. That at the end of A L I E N we did not know the SJ was connected to us that was a big connection made in Prometheus and as we have said that generates many potential reasons for  defining what the fall was. 

1) The release from bondage of Sacrifice.

2) The corruption of mankind by including them in the creation chain of the Zeno strain.

3) The determination to 'to create first we must destroy"

So to return to my theme of keep it simple we have a pretty good idea what the fall was one or all three of the above.

How did the fall manifest itself.

1) The attempt to release themselves lead to the mistake of angels becoming serpents (Engineers >Deacons) which evolved into a creature of punishment.

2) The possible creation of a mutagen corrupted catalyser which became a plague on LV223. 

3) The biblical representation of punishment being shot in Australia.

We know Shaw and David arrive to an evolving creature and subsequently the crew of Covenant.

My supposition is we will see all those dots joined up in C O V E N A N T and if not all of them then some reserved for film 3.    

The reason I thought I would take this KISS approach in this part of the conversation is in response to your sources remarks that a lot of the answers are there we just need to find them and these are my words "some are hidden but some are staring us in the face even if no one has uttered the words".  

Indeed i can kind of see where you are going.... Prometheus gave us clues that the Engineers in part are what led to Mankind.

Ridley had hinted this event may not have been a one off event and that continued visits and upgrades led to us.

I guess one of the reasons we have to ask is WHY? why are we created.... for some purpose... or because they could as Holloway suggested to David.

In context of David 8

He was created because we could, but its also as a sign to ourselves of how far we have Advanced and what we could achieve the fact we have created Life like David is a showcase of our own Achievements.

But there is also a reason... David 8 is created to serve and respect Mankind, he is also created to perform certain tasks that for Humans could be tiresome, hard, both Physically and Psychologically.

David 8 thus is a Tool, but he also is a showcase of our Races Achievements.

If we now look at reasons for why we was created in other cultures maybe that gives some clues...

Biblical and Paradise Lost

Seems we was created maybe because previous creation proved flawed... (Angels) we have to ask why did God create Angels in the first place... maybe as Companion, but the Angels would also serve God, Worship him and perform Tasks for him.... ultimately the creation of Angels was a sign of Gods Achievement and after this Achievement proved flawed... God maybe created Mankind to be what he maybe had hoped for as far as Angels.

There was a Flaw in the Programing... Satan had this.. and so maybe Mankind was created as a replacement... but the Flaws reappeared after consuming the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge.

Sumerian Annunaki

Again this tale, seems to show that the Igigi Gods had been created for a certain task, to perform tasks for the greater good of the Annunaki Gods... which was to mine Earth for Gold.... these beings got fed up of doing the Chore and Burden and Rebelled..... Mankind was created to then replace those Igigi Gods in performing this Task....

I have not chosen to cover Greek Mythos at this point, or others but some cultures God created Man because he was alone... and needed subjects to watch over and to worship him and for companionship.

I think there must have been a purpose for Mankind... but then we had evolved beyond the intended purpose... it would be like  Davids role... why he was created... and then what happens when he becomes sentient and starts to gain Freewill and no long see that Androids have to serve Mankind, or live by our restraints.... a Rebellious David could then affect other Androids before long many Androids feel the same, and see that they do not need to serve us and indeed they do not need us....  and we then could end up seeing them replace us....

At this point or the risk of this... that Mankind would have to pull the plug on Androids... destroy them to prevent Mankind being overthrown and potentially either destroyed or Forced to Serve the Machines.

The Question in this theoretical scenario is what would lead to David 8 becoming Sentient... he is a Robot and surely they can be save guards to his programing to prevent such a Rebellion.

How can such a thing come about?

*Always been a Flaw in the Programing (Knowledge)

*A Evolution of the Programing....

*Some Party that had altered the Program and given Forbidden knowledge.

I think maybe we need to consider that...

Also as far as Mankind goes... and Engineers...

is it more like the Biblical Event, where the Hierarchy created us because of a Rebellion of the Engineers?

Did the Engineers sub-create us.... or was they used to sub-create us... was the Fall the creation of us... or that Forbidden knowledge and thus purpose was passed on to us by a Rebellious group of Engineers or Hierarchy.

I think the Answer to this would open up Doors to what the Agenda is.

Igigi=Engineers=David

The creations are all rebelling against their original purpose. 

What they do not appreciate until they burst their bonds that their sub creative behaviour has consequences, to operate outside of the plan is dangerous very dangerous.

Mankind in the first two instances and in the adam and eve myth is caught in sin knowledge is dangerous without the creators ultimate selfless view of creation.

If as I suspect part of the big idea is David becomes sentient he may not only gain knowledge but wisdom and may move through a protagonist, antagonist redemption arc. If he is responsible as I believe for the new event when he sees what he has unleashed he may redeem himself and take the story further on.

David in this new script will be an extension of the Engineer knowledge he will disseminate the narrative and pursue their dilemmas and their fall. For me this will be the Loganisation of the script instead of a rather defuse elliptical presentation David will show us both historically and in real time in a completely focused way there back story both reflecting on and pursing it by analogy and parallel.     

Reading your remarks you are consciously or unconsciously indicating that the Engineers journey is Davids journey and echoes the Sumarian legend of the Igiggi. 

I think it could just be a returning theme....  And we maybe see what happened When Engineers Rebelled and then Humans and now David and so ultimately i wonder if David creates something he thinks he can control but ultimately he can not.

Its a very bold plot, that is what could be happening the scope is huge that we really cant be sure what the outcome would be but i think loosely there has to be  a backbone theme.... like has been discussed a number of times.

Its trying to figure out what could be the Fall....

The Annunaki had it that the lower cast Igigi refused to carry out the Toil that was given to them by the Annunaki and they were simply just replaced by Mankind... i am not sure if the Mythos mention what became of the Igigi after.

The Biblical/Paradise Lost... The Fall was again similar to the above in that Lucifer did not see why they should have to serve under God, and that they see themselves as being more than Servants under the Tyranny Rule of God.

God then created Mankind, and Satan then gave/led to mankind  having forbidden knowledge.

The Greek Mythos, has both the above too... first we see a repeat of Rebellion of a Lower Hierarchy against their Father... Cronus against Uranus and this is then carried on when Cronus feared his children would Rebel against him.... and we see Prometheus played a big role in this....

With Mankinds creation... Prometheus again was deeply evolved in the Children/Father Rebellion and took Mankinds side.

He had taught Mankind Knowledge and also gave us Fire Stolen from the Gods.

And so for me i think  KEY ASPECTS to the Fall...are

*Seeing oneself as not having to abide by the Hierarchy rule and rules and seeing oneself as equal or that the Hierarchy have not right to see themselves as superior

*Stealing or using some Forbidden Knowledge or Tool not intended for use by lower castes..of the Hierarchy or in a way that the Hierarchy did not commission.

*Sub-creating with out the consent of the Hierarchy or at very least passing of knowledge on do a authorized sub-creation that was not intended for such a creation.

These 3 themes seem to match those Religions/Mythos and i think would to some degree have to be similar to what ever the Fall in context to Prometheus and Alien has to be going on..

But this still leads to many possible ways this could come into play... depend on how much or less we are to take Greek Mythos or Biblical...

But the Source said that they are all loosely connected but that Matrix Theme is more like what the Agenda and Theme for the Movie was going to be.

This is similar and has similar theme to the other Mythos.... but one thing that differs seems to be that its now the Creation that has gained Knowledge and now has overthrown and enslaved their former Creators.