Human to Alien morphing in Alien: Covenant and Black Goo effects on Male vs. Female hosts

@BD I think your summation of the three big themes is right on the mark. So I am going to move on to the Matrix. 

David and Shaw discover that Paradise is not Paradise it is the reverse. 

Neo discovers that Earth is not what they thought but a simulation with the machines in the ascendancy.

The drama of Prometheus Pandemonium the incoming of Shaw and a developing David would echo the journey of Neo who would ultimately survive to fight another day and right the wrongs of the machines/fallen Engineers. The incoming crew would act in the same roll as the Matrix insurrection. We have learned a great deal about the Matrix Mythos and in P Elizabeth has her answers.

I think this element of the unfolding story has been reduced. Its no longer a story about the Engineers with Zeno's as patination. It is a story about Zeno's and the Engineers role in the developing creature. We will find out more about the Zeno/Goo which will explain what happened to the Engineers. How the three themes applied to them how they fell and the retribution. One of the consequences of this contraction in the Engineers involvement is the ten years. Its happened we will see it in perspective.

The only element that remains from the Matrix analogy is Paradise is not what Elizabeth or the unknowing on the Covenant expected and as there story unfolds we will discover what happened in the past.  

Put simply my supposition is all that is left from the Matrix element is things are not what they seem and Daniel's like Neo will be forced to act.

I maybe wrong but I do not think the broad science fiction world of reversed racial symbiosis is at play excepting that mankind may have been brought into the creation of a lifecycle intended to free the Engineers from Bondage.This is knowledge which David will acquire and use to horrific effect.

I think the application of the fall will be shown in a highly personal way with David through exposition and Ridders through visual coups explaining the history.                  

If the source simply meant humans get hooked up provide momentum for the life cycle development well absolutely. But an entire planet no and its not needed to tell the story.  

Interesting Michelle...

I think it would be interesting to find out where they are going with the plans now and what could have been the plan before... and its interesting to try and fit what the Source claims but there is still no 100% way to know if any of it is true despite some detailed stuff including roughly where Paradise was located (about 600LY or Parsecs 1800+LY away) in the constellation of Ophiuchus which seemed odd at first but stories and mythos with that constellation does connect a bit.

I think mainly we need take Ridleys comments more serious... he seems to be hinting all along a number of things.

*The beings on(were on) Paradise... are not Benevolent.

*The place is a cognition of something dark and sinister (which from the location shots in New Zealand does not seem to be the case) thus its dark in nature to a agenda or Evil.

*Rappace hinted they could be off to meet God.. or the Devil.

*Ridley had referred to Engineers as Fallen Angels.

*He also mentioned Paradise Lost a number of times, as far as themes.  And a lot of Paradise Lost revolves around Satan.

*He mentioned that the Fallen Angels had the most fun in Paradise Lost, and you had one guy who goes to all the clubs gets all the girls... while another is boring and stays at home.

And so while he said the movie would loosely connect such themes, it is similar to Paradise Lost but thats where it ends.. we are not getting a literal Paradise Lost Story....

But i think it points to a similar theme to Paradise Lost and certainly as far as Engineers and Fallen Angels, and so it must loosely follow more so the Fall and Elements of the Fallen Angels in Paradise Lost and connect those themes to the Engineers...

Which Punishment plays a key... and so i think the Paradise Lost Punishment of Satan and his Angels in context to Satans Daughter as Punishment (Half Humanoid/Serpentine) and Fallen Angels becoming Serpents...

I still think has to connect with the Xenomorph.. i am just drawn to this process being what leads to the Xenomorph... i also think Prometheus Punishment by the Eagle could be loosely symbolic too.

Which is why now more than ever, i am led to ,my theory a long time ago about these Two Frescos being related.

But if we go back to OP...

I dont think we have seen any difference as far as Face Hugger on Female or Male making any difference, the outcome seems to be the same....

There has to be a way a Queen comes to be, but there are a number of theories regarding that but we cant say for sure that the process needs Female DNA

As far as the Goo goes, well it was not so well covered in Prometheus, and it depends if we look at the Goo as far as Prometheus... or do we use unused concept work and explanation in the drafts which led to a more Xeno-Fifield outcome.

And so who knows if a Female becomes heavily infected with the Black Goo that was allowed to mix and seep out of the Urns... if a Female Human was covered in a large amount of the stuff...

We can assume they would become a hybrid like the Fifield concepts... and it would be interesting to see what effect it has on her reproductive cycle.

And as far as a Male under the same circumstances we cant be sure if they could procreate... maybe they could Egg Morph?

But one thing we definitely know for sure is a Female who is infected to a degree could see her Eggs become Evolved into something related to Face Huger

One thing that disturbs me is the leap from servant to rebellion in AI creations.  I think this is a key in this story, as well as in real life. 

As far as this story, I think David rebelling against humans, and creating his own "life forms" is a key ingredient to getting a bio-mechanical big chap.  It is the "missing link" as it were, getting from Prometheus, to Alien.  So in effect, you have engineers, then humans, then AI's  all lending DNA to the process, which when subverted, creates evil creatures.  David is just the next generation of beings who rebel and create evil in this process.

So how does this leap take place?  In each case, an outside source "helped" one being to evolve past what it's intended purpose was.  So who/what will be David's sponsor/tutor?  Did he already connect the dots on his own from Prometheus, and the subsequent ten year journey, or will A:C provide more input?

To the OP, I think BD and MJ have nailed it.  The effects on humans are the result of rebellion and the fall from grace.  Instead of good coming from the seeding of planets with lifeforms, you have evil to punish disobedience. 

The effect on AI's is going to be the pivotal point, IMHO.  What will be the consequence of their "sin"?    

@BD.

Fresco 

Ok lets narrow down on the Fresco. I have just played the section from my Blu Ray with extras and Ridleys commentary switched on.

The first thing to note is your image is not identical to the freeze frame. The monster is uglier more grotesque and appears to have a single talon. The position of the Engineer is not identical it is recoiling rather than in a position of authority. You think that Ridley is going to ignore it and he comes back to it and talks about it "communicating distress". He uses the word sacrifice which is being undergone to pursue their very dangerous experiments and the goo is likened to the Ebola virus. He passes over the deacon.

So combining the directors views with the over arching themes I would suggest the following :-

The mural is an early stage example of the Engineers experimenting and applying their sacrificial nature to sub creation. With the tear in his abdomen and in pain this is both a replication but self inflicted punishment which represents the Promethean Myth. This clearly is an evolving move toward the lifecycle which is barely noticeable on the mural but is explicitly offered through the Charlie to Deacon Movement.

In dramatic terms first the set up, the mural, then the eventual outcome, the Deacon, and given Ridley's remarks added to Damon's the Black Goo is the Engineers Mutagen which will reappear on Paradise.

New Zealand    

Flying into Fiordland and capturing the breathtaking scenery of South Island together with the Quarry scene suggests Paradise will look like Paradise but on closer examination it is bearing the price of Paradise Lost. So much better to show the external beauty juxtaposed against the Engineers dreadful fall. Janek's proposition might be right and either the creator's or David intervention has occurred or war between the Engineer factions.

Given so much of the dark elements are in place in Paradise I believe Janek may have been wrong and that Paradise was pursuing danger to the same degree with the same catastrophic outcomes but of a different nature. Who is responsible David or the Creators. In a fast paced movie making clear statements as to the historic fabric of the Engineers, a factional war seems over complicated and as one of the huge themes is punishment I am going with a catastrophic intervention which happens before David arrives but together with the Juggernaut tech and what he finds there is more than enough for him to create. There is an outside chance in "bringing hell" he is responsible but that would make him very dramatically powerful and as he is about curiosity and on a journey a little more circumspection in him playing God might be the answer. There is a potential plot hole if the Engineers are still a thriving species at the time of the Prom mission.

So we are moving along nicely a race born to sacrifice wants to break its bonds and sub create and re create mankind (and others) and this leads to the personal retribution of the Promethean myth and the biblical scale retribution of the Paradise Lost Myth.    

Female Outcomes.

The facehugger appears to be carrying an Egg in the T Shirt designs.

Egg creation

1) Discarded scenes from A L I E N. I know Aorta is keen and we have seen Neil consider it for A 5 but that maybe one of the concepts affected by Ridleys interventions. 

2) Camerons Queen.

3) Shaw transformed and hooked up to Giger-esque tech could represent an evolutionary set from Miss T to an Egg Face Hugger birth-er.

I think Shaw's female input will be included in the chain. I have considered a changed David having a night out with her but that feels dramatically implausible perhaps he infects her in Cryo-sleep. Bottom Line David = Engineer philosophically and will pursue dangerous experiments leading to a "New Event".  

@Diz There is real knowingness about his curiosity on LV223. All that study on Prometheus. He has the Juggernaut and many years on Paradise I think he is self taught rather than tutored by yet another last Engineer who he does not have good form with.  

Yes David would have enough time to learn more and more about the Engineers Culture and Experiments.. there is a lot we dont know about but he has had 10 years since Shaw collected his headless body.

He could after he has been re-assembled, simply stay around LV-223 for a bit and gain more information unless the Juggernaught can access information from any of the Temples.   Once he has Shaw in Cryo-Sleep which we have to assume is what has happened... then David is free to go where ever he wants.

Be that hang around on LV-223, go and see whats going on at LV-426 because he was aware of LV-426 and only he and Weyland was...

Or go right to Paradise... where he would have a number of years to study more about the Engineers and the Goo....  but he could just as easy visit another World that is connected on the way.

Maybe the set up is that David is involved in the Xenomorph but we cant be sure,  and as far as Paradise and the Engineers then yes i would assume that there has to be very little or none left... but how little is left of their culture and race by the time David arrives is unkown...

Prometheus 2 Ridley hinted that they would find some beings and that David was bringing Hell with him, but we dont know if they have changed plans as far as what state Paradise is in as far as remains of Civilization for Alien Covenant.

As far as the BIO-MECHANICS.... again some hints could set up Davids involvement, in fact when i saw the Prometheus trailers... i was being led to David somehow Evolves himself like how Pinocchio was gifted the chance to become a real Boy..... but in doing so David would now be open to be infected with a Face Huger and Shaws Baby ultimately does this.. Play with Fire and get Burnt... and the outcome is a David Chest Buster...

But i felt the Derelict and Eggs had been there for longer than nearly 30 years.... but Prometheus proved this theory incorrect... well another trailer showing Davids head did lol

But thats not to say this could not be explored in the next movie.... whats interesting is the Emphasis on mentioning David was Synthetic in the Synopsis... anyone who saw Prometheus would know this..

Then Fassbender said he would be playing a doppelganger as well as David 8... well if he is playing Two David Androids why not saying he is playing Multiple Androids?

Therefore the doppelganger may not quite be as Synthetic as David 8 and maybe this doppelganger could be how the Xenomorph gets its Bio-Mechanics.

However... again i always felt the Derelict has been there a long time and Ridley had on a number of times hinted at and then confirmed it had been there for thousands of years...

So maybe that rules out any event from Alien Covenant being how the Bio-Mechanics play a role... which Ridley said we would find out how/why it is Bio-Mechanical...

However a key to remember is the Engineers Juggernaught and Technology and Suits are Bio-Mechanical and have been around for thousands of years...

Michael Biehn said that Alien Covenant is set thousands of years prior to Aliens... the Source hinted that some part of Prometheus 2 was set in the past.

But a think we cant rule out is that... yes the Derelict may have been there for thousands of years... this does not mean that the Eggs have been... David could always had gone back to LV-426 with his experiments.

As far as the Fresco... yes  Sacrifice does fit the bill, we have to remember Star Beast had a similar one (Murals)...  around a Sacrificial Chamber where some Animal was used as a Sacrifice to procreate the Star Beast... 

Alien also had a Mural that Giger did that was never used and that had what could be interpreted as Engineers/Space Jockeys Sacrificing themselves to Procreate the Xenomorph.

So the Prometheus Mural and Fresco also fit with this... i only made Prometheus Punishment connection for a few reasons.. and yes the image i shown was taken from the French Art of Prometheus Book but this was the same image in the Fresco only we see them from a different angle and not the full Frescos as clearly.

However the Fresco and Prometheus Punishment fit... because

*The pose is similar, the look on the face of the Engineer is similar.

*The Engineer appears to have a cut in the same area.

*The Eagle is Beaked but so does that Fresco Creature.

*One of HR Gigers earlier Face Huger Designs is beaked (similar) and its in the Prometheus Mural.

*The Star Beast Sacrificial Beast seems Beaked, or could have Mandibles... which the Fresco creature could also have instead of a Beak.. and also Dan O'Bannons design for the Starbeast is similar.

*The Punishment fits with the theme and set up and with Prometheus movie name.. and Paradise Lost.

And we have to remember we do not have to take things as Literal.... so when we consider Prometheus.. we dont have to consider it a Literal One Titan... but it could symbolize a Group... like in the Biblical references we dont have to consider that there is ONE GOD above the Fallen Angels (Engineers)

And so we dont have to be literal.... and so the Prometheus Punishment could be that the Rebellious/Fallen Faction was Punished by being used as Hosts to Procreate something..

No one can be 100% sure if this is the case.. but i do think Michelle we are not to far off the Mark.... and we are in the Ball Park so to speak..

The more i think about the Sources Vague comments and try and tie them together the more they could add up.... for example... the Sin Reference.. if this means Daughter of Satan... Born from his Head... could we twist this to be Born from a Face Hugger... and given birth to a offspring?   Satans Daughter is Part Human/Serpentine and a similar deity in Greek Mythos is Echidna she is Mother of Monsters... and described almost identical to Sin as in Satans Daughter.  They both gave birth to the Hounds of Hell/Hades and also Echidna is the Mother of the Eagle that is part of Prometheus Punishment.

@BD Why Bio Mechanoid.

"Yeah. Well, really it’s “Alien.” They’re going to go to the planet where the engineers came from, and come across the evolving creature that they had made. Why did they make it? Why would they make such a terrifying beast? It felt bio-mechanoid, it felt like a weapon. And so the movie will explain that, and reintroduce the alien back into it". R Scott Esquire.

This quote may indicate how the thematic quality of the Matrix comes into the mix. 

What David discovers is that the Paradise Engineers in the past moved on from the Deacon to evolve the creature blending organic and mechanistic technology which of course is pure Giger and not a little Borg !

Janek's remarks may have lead us off the track and Paradise is the real deep s''t. Given we know they were going to find hell in the "Paradise Pandemonium" phase that will still inform the movie but in a more historical textural way. The appalling retribution we are aware of would have been meted out on them on Paradise because their experiments needed corralling and stoping. In that scenario the Jockey may have been trying to escape with the Eggs set the Juggernaut down and found he had not escaped retribution. As it were the final act of the Engineers.

However back to our gallant crew and Dave and Liz. To make a movie out of David Big Idea and Elizabeth (alive but only technically) and a crew that disappears from the dinner table, whilst Daniels finds out the truth of Paradise for us, and Ridders offers us some Easter Eggs in the Prologue is an easy 120 minutes ; without D 8 zipping on the equivalent of an inter galactic metro and dashing all over hell and creation and all points in between. Actually he has arrived at hell and sub creation.

David has plenty of toys to play with and the creation of a new secondary event will be high on his agenda not to mention treating Elizabeth in his usually amoral curious way. That creation of the new event will give us the clue as to how it happened to begin with.

So once we have all that who survives and where to next ? 

True, Janek approached the subject from his frame of reference, namely a military-industrial complex, churning out WMD's in some kind of inter-galactic arms race.  Because that's what our race would be doing.  Indeed, W-Y is hell-bent on getting this technology to use in their military R&D dept. 

And that was my take as well, until considering the mythic/religious theories as presented here. Indeed, Ridley seems to be taking the epic stories of civilizations past and providing a feasible explanation of them, based on science fact or fiction. 

Wouldn't it be a real mind-blower if we indeed discover these myths are actually based in some truth, of the ancient astronaut variety!  

Yes Diz that seems to be the notion that they was aiming for all along... and its how deep or not so we deep we go now with Alien Covenant

@Diz "There not stupid enough to put it on their own doorstep" Prima Facie they built the installation on LV223 and not their home. With five terminals serving  possibly several Juggernauts this is a military airfield. 

In dramatic terms when in the headroom Charlie focus's on the alter and the mural and says "This is just another  tomb" thats communicating a certainty its clarifying what we are seeing. 

What Janek is introducing for the first time is a new plot line, this is not the Engineers Home and it is done just before they discuss the surviving Engineer. This conversation sets up two elements of narrative momentum :-

1) Janek understands the stakes, wants to go home and this leads down to his heroic response. 

2) Its planting the seed for Elizabeths journey and who knows what they are going to find. Janek's response was about LV223 and how appalling the Bio Weapon is, he has no idea what Elizabeth will find on Paradise and whichever way the plot was going to go the Paradise idea was going to be invested with huge amounts of irony. In any script it is not what it seems so Janek's remarks set up the irony. 

If their are Vases on Paradise and an evolving creature theirs trouble, maybe not on the industrial scale of LV223, but trouble.

So on reflection to be deflected by Janek's remark was a leap into the darkness, but as BD and I have said before in answer to the critique of Prom being vague this is another example of a character crunching the narrative. This stuff is a weapon, it is bad news, it got out, destroyed them and they come from somewhere else. How unclear is that ?    

Big Dave:

I think that it was very disappointing that they didn’t use the Xenomorph Fifield but went with the zombie instead. The Zombie was very bad and (more importantly) made less sense than the other version. When I see the Xeno version and look at the Zombie I just shake my head in disappointment because that would have made the movie a little better.

New monsters sure but no Fifield zombies please because it is not good. I like zombie movies but I don’t think that an Alien prequel is a place for them and they shouldn’t be in AC either.

The boob monster looks sort of creepy like something that could attack you without hesitation and tear you into pieces, sorry but I am not sure what to call it. I think that it would make sense if each version would be sort of different compared to the rest but that they should also have a lot in common because we all have individual ways of how we look but we also have similarities but it shouldn’t be too close to humans so to speak.

What if there are different versions of the goo? I am not sure how this would work, it is just an idea that I have.

The eye worm is a thing that didn’t make sense to me. It was like they had an idea about it but they didn’t develop it very much but put it in the movie and the result of that scene was like “Uh? OK? What’s the point?” Maybe that was another idea that they didn’t think through very well but I think that it was potentially creepy – the idea of a parasite that consumes your body from within, eww.

I think the eye worm indeed is a very important part of the puzzle and something they went with but they basically then cut out some planned parts of it..

Which made the whole thing a mess...

If you read Spaights draft and replace Nano-Scarab with Nano-Worm/Tadpole  and then look at Prometheus and see the Goo as Nano Worm/Tadpole then i think you would start to see something...  dont forget Sperm is a collection of Tadpole looking Micro-Organisms that when not under a microscope just looks like a Goo!

So the eye worm was either (Evolved by Goo Sperm that went AWOL) or Nano-Parasite Worms that grew... and one of these infected Shaws Eggs to lead to the Trillobite.

As far as the Goo.... and different versions in context to the Urns here is what in a Nut Shell i think it did...

Sacrificial Goo + Organism (contained in a Tank/Vat) = Organisms Genetic Material Broken down... resulting broken down Material = Collected.

Collected Broken Down Material is a new Mutagenic Substance that contains the DNA of Organism infected/consumed Sacrificial Mutagen...  this resulting broken down Organisms DNA is stored in the Parasitic Mutagen and acts as a Evolutionary Accelerant that Evolves Life it comes into contact with by Evolving its own best Traits and passing on Traits/DNA of the Organism that the New Mutagen was made from via the Sacrificial Mutagen

Therefore.....   Sacrifical Mutagen/Substance...  consumed by Wolf, breaks down Wolves DNA and produces Mutagenic Substance...  that when it interacts with a Organism would pass on Wolf Traits.... 

This Substance plus Human = Werewolf like creature.

If Organism that consumes Sacrificial Substance is a Turtle... and resulting broken down Turtles DNA Mutagen is then consumed by a Human then we may get this...

Hope this is clear?

So if the Engineers had some Tank/Vat where a Sacrificial Organism... say Engineer consumes the Sacrificial Goo but instead of doing so over a water fall, it happens inside a Tank... his broken down material would be collected into the Tank... this could then be siphoned into Canisters.. 

Imagine if this process happened to the Sacrificial Engineer and his material was siphoned into Bottles...

Then these Bottles were poured into the Water Fall... would the results not be the same?

So replace Bottle with the ampoules inside those Urns...

Also they could Sacrifice by this method (using a Tank to collect the broken down material) to then Sacrifice any number of Organisms and put the resulting substance into Ampoules.

so we could have Wolf DNA ones that would make Werewolves if used on Humans... could have Turtle ones that would make TMNT if used on Humans..

Or Rat DNA to make a Master Splinter... even hell if we had Boar and Rhino DNA broken down and Stored these would produce a TMNT Rocksteady and Bebop etc