LV-426 or NOT?

I will further add... while the interior to the crashed Juggernaught looks like the one in Prometheus.... it does seem to have had vegetation overgrowing in it and maybe this with Black Goo could maybe cause some changes? But this cant be confirmed..

There is this shot though.

Which is different to the interior to the LV-223 Juggernaughts and is very similar to the interior of the Derelict... however it appears to be dirt on the floor and so its more like the Cave System in Prometheus but with a Alien Derelict Aesthetic.

But of note is that the Juggernaught also somehow had some dirt inside it too...

Maybe Storm Event brought it in, and also caused the degrading of the Temple and reason for broken doors etc.. (as discussed on another Topic not long ago).  Such a event that brings dirt into the Ship could bring Worms too and hence why i think the Worms could have lead to the Xenomorph.

Fassbenders comment about "as far as we know" to David and Shaw being alone on the way to Paradise... is a hint at something else and i feel the only logical explanation would be Worms had got on the ship.

@ali81

Dont worry i think it wont be that case, too many flaws and contradictions if they went that route, not to mention a U-Turn on Ridley Scotts final explanation for the Space Jockey.. which i will cover now... not word for word.. but i can get the word for word if you want.

*The Space Jockey is a brother to the Engineers, his ship is a brother to those on LV-223

*The Space Jockey was leaving his departure to a undisclosed location but he got infected with the Cargo and did not get far, he had to then attempt to land and Quarantine the Ship and let off a SOS warning to his comrades that the Cargo is compromised.  The Space Jockey got Chest Busted during the final landing phase.

*This event happened within a few hundred years of the Outbreak that killed off nearly all those Engineers on LV-223 some 2000 years ago... thus 1800-2200 ball mark.

*Something had Evolved in the Cargo Hold and it got to the Pilot.

But saying this....

after Alien Covenant if Fan Reaction seems keen on a direct LV-426 connection and David and the events after Prometheus leading to the Derelict then maybe they can show us the event as being latter and go against what Ridley had said...

As the only Canon really is on screen... and so far there is no 100% evidence that can say the Space Jockey and Derelict as far as on screen are thousands of years old.... looks old... but who knows..

Same as the Egg Morph and Elder Engineers could all be taken as non-canon if they choose to not explore them... as only what is shown in the Theatrical and DVD releases are 100% Canon.

Ridleys Comments thus point towards...

Most likely...

*The Space Jockey left with a Bio-Weapon but got infected on route... if this was from LV-223 to LV-426 thats a short journey for sure... to get infected....  he likely would have been infected earlier... unless he landed the ship way before getting Chest Busted... 

Then the Engineers went back to the drawing board over the next few hundred years to re-weaponize the Xeno for a more safer Weapon... The LV-223 Experiments.

*After the Outbreak some Engineers got to there ships, in a attempt to escape from some outbreak.... some sadly never made it and was Chest Busted... (The other 3 Engineers on the Juggernaught) but one survived in his Cryo-Pod unaffected. Only to be woken up by the Prometheus expedition 2000 years latter.

The Space Jockey attempted the same, but he suffered the same fate as the other Cryo-sleep Chest Busted Engineers, he was not as lucky as the Last Engineer, but he did manage to put his event on hold.

Somehow after a 200 year or so slumber he awoke and then set off to carry on his mission.... only he was infected... Thus our Last Engineer simply never set his Alarm Clock...

The Outbreak could have led to the infections as something on LV-223 had got infected and Evolved.. Black Goo...  or something had got aboard and infected the Cargo or the Cargo infected something that got aboard the Derelict and maybe LV-223 Juggernaught after the Engineers had gone into Cryo-Sleep but only enough to infect just 3 Engineers on the one ship and Space Jockey on his....

The last option seems to fit the bill more....

However there is still the discrepancy mainly in the Aesthetic of the Derelict and Juggernaught interior more than anything...  yes they look different outside but internally they are very different.... which may support  a 200 year prior to the LV-223 Outbreak event.

Which maybe would be if the Space Jockey had gone to use the Eggs on the Engineers of LV-223... or something and deployed his Pay-load... then left but got infected too.

The surviving other Engineer Faction... then re-weaponized the attempted Bio-Weapon attack and maybe then intended to use it on the other Engineers or their creators.

Those TWO right now are the most likely theories for the Space Jockey connection...

BigDave

I honestly don't think Ridley cares about replicating the scenes and props to an exact t. I read somewhere he decided to make the engineer ships rounder than what was seen in Alien because he wanted it to roll to make the crash scene work.

If he's willing to do that, I don't expect him to make anything visually identical for the sake of continuity. I think he expects viewers to realize that's just not a type of continuity that needs to be strictly adhered to. He has many options these days for set design that he did not have in Alien. I'm sure he's excited to take advantage of the new tech and the bigger budget.

In regards to obliterating mountains, I actually had discussed this in another thread on a similar topic. I'm not convinced either Alien films show us a clear enough picture of the area behind the derelict to say with certainty there are no mountains or leftovers of mountains.

I made this image to demonstrate that there appears to be something behind the ship that resembles what we see in AC (though it is difficult still to say for sure because of all the fog)

In my previous post after sharing this image, it was then proposed that Aliens rules this out (based on the idea that the shot of the derelict in the Jordans scene shows no mountains) but I wasn't able to agree (again because the fog obscures far too much and then there are questions about perspective and angle.)

Outside of this, let's imagine that the appearance of mountains through the fog is just a visual illusion. That still doesn't rule out that mountains were once there. Let's assume there was an event where magma flooded the surface of the planetoid (a concept made even more interesting by Cameran's supposed claims that some ruptures to the derelict were damage from lava). If the derelict had been floating on the lava, the mountains in AC could have largely been encased in what would eventually become rock while the juggernaut (from floating) would be left at a higher altitude once the lava cooled to rock.

Really this is just playing with problem solving and again I can't say it's Ridley's intentions to go this route. My aim here is that if we are to rule the idea out, our reasoning should be impenetrable. So far I haven't seen an unshakable argument as to why they can't be the same planet.

yeah, I know ridley has stated the assumption we were given in alien, that the derelict had been there a very long time, was exactly what was meant, but im worried he changes for the flow of the trilogy. wev waited 30+ years for these answers and to go down the route that lv426 is paradise and the derelict crashes only 30 years prior would, imo, anger soooooo many of his loyal followers and I for one would never watch any subsequent alien films in future. its like the disappointment of discovering the secret to the most amazing magic trick uv ever seen as a child isn't full of any form of mystery (I know this is the case anyway but using it for an example), the waiting all these years, fans on these forums coming together just for it to be 'david caused it all 30 years ago'.WTF?????? I truly hope he goes deep into the history of the engineers/ xeno connection, I think he owes the die hard loyal fan that after all these years of waiting for the conclusion of the story to the derelict and SJ

Indeed....

It was foggy in Alien and hard to tell.... in Aliens was a bit clearer but only on the Directors cut...

The Derelict Prop on set had smaller rocks and no big mountains but then the back drop was to be painted in after and was a foggy environment and so yes there could be larger mountains obscured and not seen but there.

The Derelict is Fatter and Smaller though.. but again this could be a Aesthetic that can be ignored and we are to assume they are one and the same... or some event could cause the ship to change a bit over time... if we consider it to be kind of Plant Like rather than Mechanical.. or Bio-Mechanical.... HR Giger seemed to imply they are more Plant Like and Grown.

This could explain why it looked different over time... but surely 18 years is a short space..

I think Aesthetically internally as far as one ship being more Organic and the other Mechanical is a flaw, but maybe they can explain this away.

I still think the Biggest Flaw is the Pilot Chamber, and how the Derelict had no Chair, Control panel or Cryo-pods...  yet the Juggernaughts do.

This is a serious oversight... but Ridley has done this a number of times as far as Space Jockey and Engineer size etc... but surely the different Pilot Chambers is a stretch to far unless Ridley is being Lazy, Stupid or thinks we are too lazy or stupid to notice..

Ideally he could have shown the Ship Shaw and David leave on has a different Pilot Chamber layout... thats more like the Derelict if he was going this route...

I think they are giving us a Red Herring... but one they could turn into the real connection if they feel this pleases the most Fans..

Right now i would bank on it the Juggernaught Shaw and David left on and we see in this movie is not the Derelict... Unless the one we see externally in the trailer is different to the one we see internally.

I cant rule out Paradise being LV-426 as i forget to mention Ridley did intend before AVP came out to do a prequel and cal LV-426 Paradise...

But i will think the Derelict and David and Shaws Juggernaught are in no way the same ship... i am 99.99% certain it would not be the case.

But who knows what Ridley would do and show... if they go this route then AC will be a bigger disservice as AVPR was to AVP.

Unless Ridley intends to Retcon Alien.

ali81

Is it really worth it? If Ridley did change his mind and go with a different idea, is that really worth dismissing the whole thing? Imagine everything else about these films is pretty great. Does one failed expectation have to ruin the whole thing?

Furthermore, IF Ridley did take us in the direction of the AC planet and juggernaut being LV-426 and the derelict, does that really lock him into the idea that the engineers/SJ and the xenos don't have an ancient history?

I for one prefer there is millions of years of history between engineers and xenos, but Ridley doesn't need to have the AC planet = LV-426 idea cancel out such a history. If he did that it would be silly.

I agree. id go as far to say if he goes down the 'paradise is lv426' and 'david caused it all' route then hel damage alien. for me hed do more damage than the avp crossover ever did. id never be able to watch the derelict scene in alien again with the same mystery and intrigue knowing just 18 or so years prior it was all because of a wayward android

The Source i had back in February 2015... who mentioned a lot of stuff based of Greens Draft (which i cant say is 100% Legit) but so much has came out that adds up, at a time when no other place had mentioned so much included multiple Davids and Two Monsters.

This source claimed the Derelict is a Ancient Event very related to Prometheus as it had the clues all over it but in a vague way.

They claimed P2 David would re-create something and in order to re-create the Xenomorph (or related Origin) all you needed was the Tools and Knowledge and David has both.

They also said Paradise was far away (600LY) and near the Serpens/Ophiuchus  constellations.

AC mentions Paradise is on the far side of the Galaxy and well Zeta 2 at 39LY is not what i would call far... but then Prometheus LV-223 was the darkest parts of the universe lol but then it could mean as far as Sinister and not distance.

If the source was true or not who knows... if they was... things change... Logan has re-wrote that draft 3-4 times they claimed... and  re-writes can change a lot..

See Spaights to Lindeloffs LV-426 to LV-223.

But i think Paradise is not located near LV-426

ok, one fact about LV-426 always stuck with me for some reason....in Alien, when they are analyzing the "planetoid" they say its tiny.  Only 1200km across.....thats really small.  How can you send colonists to that speck?

hope ur right bigdave

I think it wont if they go that Paradise is LV-426...  it does bum Prometheus a bit... and Alien 5 had to be changed because it was stepping on the toes of Prometheus 2 so Ridley takes these things serious..

And so while i forgot one Clue in Favor of Paradise = LV-426 because it was a idea Ridley had many years ago... prior to even thinking about Prometheus...

Another clue against it was Holloway when he said about the Star Maps that they found in a Cave... that only one system matched the Maps... this System had a star with one Planet that could support life and they arrived there that morning...

If LV-426 is Paradise.. then Holloway was wrong... and LV-223 was not the only planet/moon that could support life.

Ridley would have to toss out that... and the Viral Marketing for Prometheus as well as other things.. to go for a LV-426 is Paradise and Juggernaught = Derelict and then God knows who the Space Jockey is..

Because well in AC there is no Pilot... the Ship is empty.... unless at the end or next movie they show us someone gets on the Juggernaught and attempts to take off with it and ends up crashing again somewhere else on LV-426/Paradise..

This would fit more with Alien then.... and explain maybe why LV-426 changed..

But if it was that simple... why did David remain stranded why not try and take off?

Also it seems AC will end with Daniels and at least David or Walter on the Covenant Ship with many more Colonist in Cryo-sleep..... where do they go after this... and how would this lead to the Juggernaught then being the Derelict.

As it has no Pilot in AC?

@SteveRogers1973

Good point ;) forgot about that

The Trailer seems to show us that Paradise does not look 70% the size of our Moon, also they said its a Planet and not a Moon... but i think Holloway mentioned Planet too when he meant LV-223

I think it would be a Cop Out if they go for Paradise to be LV-426.. it would be a way to tighten up to Alien and throw out the Engineers for good...

I would be happy to BET it wont be the same though...

under normal circumstances regarding locations for setting up colonies, its daft and prob would never happen. my guess is this is a front. the company knows more, as the weyland files now support. and have set up the atmosphere processors to lay claim to the planetoid. so whatever else is there is theres and isn't going anywhere so they have time to wait for the processors to kick in. in the mean time theyl let the prospectors investigate and if they dig something up, woop woop. if not, theyr claim is legal without anyone asking too many questions and they can move theyr own people in at a time of theyr choosing. pointing out its size also adds to the doubt of paradise being lv426. a planetoid that small surely could have any kind of atmosphere or gravity that would sustain such a lush eco system? 

BigDave

We saw in Prometheus, the pilot chamber is transformative. With that idea in place, can't it be possible for different components of the chamber to be activated/deactivated?

Imagine if there are different modes for the chamber. Is it impossible that the sleep modules could flip over, leaving the bottoms of them exposed while concealing the part we see in Prometheus (making them appear as part of the platform?) In the same kind of thinking, could it be impossible that the control panel with the chair can also conceal itself? We see the control panel chair move it's position when David (and the engineer in the hologram) sit in it. So could that chair fold into the control panel and conceal it? It does after all seem to have a shape that fits the shape of the control panel. 

possible this type of ship is older or newer than the one in prometheous and there is no control panel, the helmet interacts neurologically with the pilot and the chair itself doesn't lower under the flooring

@QES - I'm with you with regards to many of the comments around some of these unknowns saying 'absolutely can't be' etc. AC is coming out 38 years after Alien. Ideas, props, FX methods, directors, designers all change over time. Of course it's possible.

@ali81 - if the Derelict turns out to be crashed by David, and that turns out to be LV-426, that does nothing to the likely very long history between the goo/aliens/engineers. It just means that answer isn't what you were hoping for based on a 38 year old mystery. I'm positive there will be way more back story to the Engineers/SJ to come.

Anyway, I don't know what the direction is but he I'm excited to see where it goes. We just need to keep our minds open and not write AC off because the answers aren't what we had thought/hoped/assumed.

Some of the comments on this forum make me wonder why anyone would want to continue the series/story, because they could never possibly get it right or please everyone. Some of the comments about Ridley by one or two members ive seen in other threads are just plain embarrassing. Clearly these people are themselves, cinematic geniuses. I'd love to see the huge fan base spending large amount of their time (and money) collecting, watching and debating just one of the many amazing things they've done with their lives, such as we are with The Alien universe created by Ridley.

muzzle

I cant wait for AC but I don't see ridley managing to fit much backstory into the engineer/ xeno history as AC looks to be a pure classic alien horror. im guessing the sequel to AC will be the one where it all comes together. as iv said many times, I cant wait to see AC but I really hope ridley goes more Prometheus toned than alien in the next instalment. I have faith in the man but having read a lot of the theories on here and many of the plausible, I would just hate to think that the david being cause ending would greatly disappoint many after all this time

As you know, there’s something called Occam's Razor (If there are many possible explanations for something, you should choose the simplest).

The outbreak on LV-223 was about the same time as the juggernaut crash landed on LV-426 (the chest bursted, and fossilised, space-jockey was part of the same outbreak - something had evolved in the cargo hold). This happened around the year 93 AD.

In 2093 AD, The ship Prometheus lands on LV-223, discover what happened there in the past, as well as the mutagen (the black goo). The crew is wiped out and David and Shaw leave the moon in another Juggernaut (with a cargo hold containing different kinds of things . . .).

David and Shaw crash land (say 2094) on Paradise, (which was the homeland of the engineers) but they are also wiped out about 2000 years ago (because of the same outbreak on LV-223 spreading to their world).

Paradise is therefore still beautiful and lush but there are no living creatures there anymore (only ruins still containing different things . . .), only trees, bushes and fungi . . . David has the mutagen with him and starts gardening . . .

David sends a message to Weyland-Yutani Corp. that he is on a wonderful paradise-like planet, and about 2103 AD, The Covenant sets out with 2000 colonists aboard . . .

19 years later (2122 AD), The Nostromo lands on LV-426 . . .

think the more accurate description is 'once all possibilities have been examined, the simplest, most logical solution, however unlikely, is the correct one'