LV-426 or NOT?

Mmmm - not sure that's the simplest explanation ;). Your theory is as good as any @chli. I love reading peoples take on what has/will happen. But it is, like my own views, largely conjecture.

I think you make some assumptions about LV-426 ('fossilised'; 'same outbreak'; 'something had evolved in the cargo hold'; 'this happened around the year 93AD') and 'Paradise' ('homeland of the Engineers'; 'also wiped out about 2000 years ago....because of the same outbreak on LV-223').

Occam's Razor would suggest that the Derelict on LV-426 resembles the Juggernaut we see in the AC trailer, and LV-426 is right 'next door' to LV-233. Therefore, the simplest explanation would appear to be that David crashed the Juggernaut on LV-426 shortly after leaving LV-233, and the Covenant comes along later to an area already known to have a moon that can support life, and subsequently LV-426 is destroyed by the events that occur in AC (such as David's gardening).

I think it's a less likely explanation that David and Shaw fly to a more distant location (assuming long range scans from Earth haven't discovered this planet due to its distance from Earth), with a planet already able to support life, and the Covenant just happens across this planet (whether summoned there by David or not). The Universe is massive. There's a lot of variables in that explanation.

@ali81 - I agree, I think there will further exploration of the Engineers in future films, but I get the feeling AC will be more than David just experimenting with goo. I think there will be enough in there to give us some answers, and tease us with further questions about the Engineers.

One important point I made earlier that everyone missed.

Paradise obviously has liquid water on the surface. The only catastrophe that may have turned Paradise into LV-426 would have to be so explosive that every drop of water on the planet would be dispersed into space so far out of orbit that it didn't even leave a ring. (Probably into the gas giant.)

Anything that powerful would have blown away all of the atmosphere on the planet as well, but LV-426 HAS an atmosphere. It also would likely have blown away a significant portion of the planetary mass because LV-426 is only 1200km in diameter and has a two hour rotation.  Life will not exist on a planetoid that small naturally. That explosion would also have had to atomize that planetary mass and send it into the gas giant as well. Because there is no ring around LV-426

@queen I find it unlikely that any ship could survive an event that DESTROYED EVERYTHING ON A PLANET and atomized a significant portion of it regardless of the quality of construction and materials. 

myrddin....definitely adds weight to paradise NOT being lv426

Myrddin365

The event I entertained doesn't have to destroy anything on the planet. That suggestion was more about the planet being coated in volcanic ash and lava. When Mt. Vesuvius erupted, Pompeii was coated and encapsulated in volcanic mud and ash. Preserved for almost 2000 years. For the sake of further exploring such a scenario, we can look at two possibilities.

1. The lava flood isn't that deep and the juggernaut does not get submerged. The life on the planet dies due to the ensuing nuclear winter you get with a massive eruption and furthermore is coated in a layer of volcanic mud/ash (turning it into a rock.)

2. The lavaflow is deep and the juggernaut ends up floating atop the lava until such a time where everything cooled.

In either of these scenarios, it seems the ship could still have a chance to remain (mostly) intact.

Now for the sake of looking at other possibilites, we can also trash the volcanic activity idea and go with a much simpler explanation. The idea that an event occurs (perhaps triggered by Daniels, David, or an engineer) where the entire planet is exposed to black goo to a point where the native life doesn't even get infected but is simply destroyed. We've seen what black goo can do but considering it's varied outcomes, we can't say we know EVERYTHING that it's capable of doing.

Let's go a step further and remove black goo from the equation. Let's just look at the idea that Engineers (according to some of the original ideas for Prometheus) are also supposed to be terraformers. Who even knows what their terraforming technology is capable of.

Simply put, we just don't have enough reasons to say that the planet in AC is definitely not LV-426 prior to some transformative event.

QES, so what ur saying is maybe the black goo seeps down into the core of the planet? hhhmmmm interesting theory, any volcanic activety would be a mix of lava and goo and would most definitely destroy the entire planet

Mars - no surface water (but evidence of past oceans); has an atmosphere and weather events/storms; catastrophic event in the past causing the ejection of virtually one hemisphere of its crust. Science supports this on LV-426, but we're talking about science fiction, so anything is possible (FTL travel anyone)

ali81

I actually wasn't saying that at all, but now that you mention it, that is indeed an interesting concept.

I was discussing black goo infecting the planet as a means to wipe out all life. It was a separate theory from the volcanic activity. I could see it upsetting people if that happened. A chemical or mutagen seeping down into the core and not being destroyed by the heat would likely set of a lot of logic radars.

Also molten rock isn't alive. I don't think it'd work

true don't see it working and after id posted it the heat aspect donned on me, the organic matter would burn up long before it got to the core

It did make me realize it'd be fascinating to see something massive transformed by black goo. Take an elephant or whale for example.

Something I'm hoping we'll have the opportunity to see in one of these films is what it looks like when other animals are exposed.

Well if a SJ can dramatically change in size and design and be reduced to a tall albino called "an engineer", I wouldn't be too surprised if the planet in AC turns out to be LV-426.

I doubt it though as the environmental differences are too vast, and I hope not because I'd love to see more planets introduced in the series.

neo, we don't see the SJ out of its suit so nothing has actually changed. the size thing, doesn't really affect anything as they could all very well be different sizes like humans differ. the SJ may have been an older engineer, depending on how long they live. the engineers in Prometheus may be the equivalent age to say our 21-30 age range and they don't stop growing till theyr in theyr 50s or 60s, which the SJ could be, and may live for 150 or so years. we just don't know enough to say either way for certain the SJ isn't of the same species as the engineer but RS has stated they r the same

Y'all just aren't getting the level of cataclysm that would be required to turn an earth-like planet into LV-426. It's not just volcanoes it's blowing off 90% of the planetary volume and liquifying the rest. 

Is it possible? Yes. Would the derelict have survived it with eggs and lazermist intact? No way.

I get what you're saying @Myrddin365. I guess my point is with all the other things that just can't happen, as we know it (faster than light travel, cryosleep, black goo, terraforming, finding numerous planets, planetoids and moons varying greatly in size, but apparently having the save gravity) - the possible 'destruction' of LV-426 could happen in any number of ways, fudging the laws of physics/nature, or something we don't know about. More fiction than science.

We've actually seen very little of LV-436. Who knows what kind of past it has. basically, we've seen Hadley's Hope and the area between the Nostromo and the Derelict.

Personally, I think it's entirely feasible that LV-426 could have been 'de-terraformed'. As I've said in previous posts, Ridley likes his symbolism, patterns, history repeating aspects. The fact that they chose LV-426 and not, as we know now exists, LV-223 to establish Hadley's Hope suggests a bigger story we're not yet privy to.

@MuzzleNZ it's not about whether it could happen or not. It totally could. What I'm convinced could NOT happen is the derelict sitting pristine in the EXACT same position after this cataclysm happens around it with all the eggs intact..

We know Juggernauts can be forcibly moved with enough momentum from Prometheus. We know being on the wrong end of the right physics can damage them.  We know Xeno eggs cook and die in flamethrower discharge.

If Paradise became LV-426 there is NO WAY the derelict and egg chamber survived that process. So Paradise cannot become LV-426.

Myrddin365

On the other side of the coin, we have no way to verify what the heat shields of a civilization who's technology surpasses ours by billions of years are capable of withstanding. Furthermore, the scenarios I described don't need to be explosive on a magnitude that it would evaporate oceans or obliterate surface objects.

For the sake of discussion, lets set a planetary lava flood aside. Even something as simple as a caldera eruption could create the conditions we see on LV-426. We know that if Yellowstone erupts, it is expected that the entire North American continent would be plunged into nuclear winter. Have an event like that take place on a small planetoid and such conditions could possibly envelop the entire thing. The sun could be heavily blocked out and the vegetation on the planet would die rather quickly. That would likely create the exact conditions we see on LV-426.

You could even take a caldera out of the equation and leave the nuclear winter intact (by way of terraforming technology or a variety of other possibilities for that matter.) All you really need is for the atmosphere to change in such a way that the local vegetation can no longer be sustained. This could be part of the reason why Covenant's chief terraformer is the lead role.

You could still be correct and this AC planet may not be LV-426 at all. There just isn't enough information to confirm either way.

@Myrddin365 - I'm thinking less geological cataclysm, more environmental breakdown. Basically, the environment becomes toxic rather than geologically destabilised.

As mentioned before, they can do what they like (and probably will), so science (and possibly disbelief) be damned - it could happen!

whether its lv426 or rq522. what does it matter? the real matter is, does this movie become the direct tie into alien so that scott can get on with his engineer stories? he said the beast is cooked! then he changed his mind.....why? because he knew nobody will care about the other stories until they have their grubby little hands on the true backstory! he wants the alien out of the way. so what? so he was gonna dilly dally his way to it with 4 movies. the he changed his mind! why? maybe he got tired of reading about the sad faces who poopooed prometheus because it didnt say how the ship with eggs got to 426. 50 bucks says hes giving them what they want so they hush and watch the other movies. WAKA WAKA!

Id you are unreal ahahah

But 

You might be right indeed! My eyes Are open

I think debating whether it's LV-426 is the point of this thread. You guys feel free to start another thread on your mutual dislike of Ridley. Be good to keep it all together so it doesn't get mixed up in every other thread.

Thank you MuzzleNZ.Somebody needed to say it.

uh oh...we're jumping to conclusions here arent we muzz? i love scott. hes a genius. you dont want me to mention him? preposterous! we're on a website about HIS movie silly one! and as far as i can tell hes making the right moves. why else would i praise his strategy? can't you see? i admire his purity...muwaha! mark me pro scott!

If reading your posts is jumping to conclusions, guilty as charged.

Ignore mode engaged. Deleted argument.

 Chill out Tiago.He just recommended that you start a separate forum about this.

Deleted

yes muzz you are guilty...but mostly of being human. for it is human to err. i proudly stand a royal guard at scotts throne...but worry not for he and i are merciful. we both know how common it can been to suffer a brain glitch when processing the written word....and we forgive you! *HUGS*

I've just had an idea! as an act of diplomacy i will move forward and create the thread that has been requested. i'll do this darn thing justice and give others a place to discuss the master scott

That's fine 

Its ok to debate ladies and gents.... everyone is entitled to a opinion...

I look at things Logically and see if evidence to support it, and i welcome counter claims, evidence or ideas and its interested to debate and either agree or suggest alternatives.

QES and others had posed a interesting idea, and yes a Landscape can become so badly changed that what once maybe supported life does not no more...

Mars could be used as a potential example... but it has to be some drastic event to turn Paradise to LV-426 within the span of 18 years.

But that does not mean it cant be ruled out.... we cant rule out how much Force a Engineer ship can take...  it took a pretty good hit off the Prometheus and then Rolled a fair bit and yet on the outside looked like it suffered not even a scratch...

Internally we can assume (and scene was shot) the crash had knocked the Engineer from his Pilot Chair or affected the Ships Ability to take off again...  I safely assume this because why would the Engineer go off after Shaw... was he so angered by the Humans...  Surely he would just go back into his Pilot Seat and set off again...

If the Ship was able to be flown again... surely David would informed Shaw they could use it... instead of another.

The same applies to the Ship in AC... surely if it could take off, then David would attempted to do so?

But structurally wise we cant be sure how much damage the ship can take, what would it take to destroy the ship structurally?

The Derelict had been affected by Volcanic Activity and yet it still remained in somewhat decent shape... it was not totally destroyed.....  would a Nuke Blast destroy it?  It appears not if we take Colonial Marines as Canon... or Ponder where Blomkamps Alien 5 obtained a Engineer Ship.

The Big Problem with having the Ships able to sustain a very large disaster or event that would turn a Earth like World to a Mars like Rock... would be if a Derelict could remain in the shape it did... then how they hell does the company not go and obtain the Juggernaughts on LV-223... surely  some event would have to destroy that place... but what event could totally render it destroyed.

So yes there is a valid point to a World going from Earth to Mars... and how a Engineer Ship can survive a lot of damage.

Onto the Pilot Chamber... again a nice counter-case... maybe indeed the Pilot Chamber can change... the Pilot Seat is hidden under that chamber...

Yes potentially maybe those Cryo-Pods could lift up and then swivel upside down and then drop, but there is still a few differences that seem from a Mechanical point of view with regards to the design that would not still fit in with the design of the Derelict...

But it could be a oversight we are not meant to consider... such as for instance how we will question after AC and its sequels why the 1979 Xeno looks different... as far as the Legs and Movement ... we would be expected to just overlook this oversight... like how Alien Isolation is supposed to be looked at as far as again the Xeno look... as it seems the Alien Isolation look is the way they will reveal the Big Chap to now be Aesthetically designed.

I think the Aesthetics of the Derelict interior walls compared to the Juggernaught is a bigger STRETCH as one is More Organic and the other more Mechanical if the Juggernaught on Paradise is the Derelict then maybe some event has happened to cause it to become more Organic.

Ridley Scott did say the Juggernaughts are in New Pristine Condition and Derelict was well dilapidated and decayed... still does not quite fit what we are seeing..

But the Juggernaught in AC appears to have been overran with vines and plant matter  maybe this stuff infected with Black Goo could cause it to combine with the Juggernaught and infect it and changes its appearence..

Yes some would bring up the whole Mechanical and Synthetics have no DNA like Plants and Organisms and cant be infected.... but this is Sci-Fi and the Xeno and Derelict are a combination of Mechanical and Organics... maybe some event happened to evolve the Juggernaught..

Again within 18 years though?

But again it cant be ruled out...

I will however bring up another aspect to the Smoking Gun...

If we assume the Juggernaught is Crashed on Paradise and becomes the Derelict...

We have to look how in this direct chronological time frame the movie in 18 years leads to Alien.. we have to look at AC and how it ends... where it goes next..

If we look at the case of it being the Derelict lets check list

*Cryo-Pods and Control Panel and Steps, can Morph away to be hidden like a Transformer...can change from Robot to Vehicle/plane etc.

*Ship incurs a event that somehow degrades its interior. and evolves it to become more Organic Looking...

*Landscape incurs a event that renders it to more of a baron rock.

All viable....

But then we are left with at the end of Covenant or how the crew discover the Juggernaught.....  NO ONE IN THE PILOT CHAIR..

At some point someone would have to attempt to get into the Pilot Chair and take off, and those Eggs end up in the Cargo Hold.

This Pilot would have to be infected with a Face Hugger, or Spores.

*Can a Synthetic be infected?

*Is Walter not actually a Synthetic but a Synthetic Construct?

If the answer to either of those is YES then we have to ask... does David and Walter survive AC and so One of them goes onto the Covenant and the other remains and tries to start up the Juggernaught.

If only One Survives... then does Daniels leave on the Covenant and leave the David/Walter behind on Paradise... we have to question then where does Daniels go and if there is no David or Walter on the Covenant then where does Daniels go next and how can this then evolve to expand upon Alien and clues and maybe Engineers.. or are they going to happily find a new place to colonize?

And also... why would a David/Walter set off the SOS in a Alien Language... especially if the Juggernaught transmitted a signal in a language the Covenant could decipher.. the only logical reason would be to Warn the Engineers but why?

If we answer NO to David/Walter being infected with the Xeno or Spore...

Then who else gets into the Chair after AC?  Shaw?, any survivors from the Covenant left behind? What reason would anyone of them have for staying down unless forgotten and presumed lost or dead?

Again why is the SOS in Alien.. and not a language or way a Human can decipher unless its a automated one set off.. but how would a Human know how to do this?

Maybe a Engineer at a latter date arrives, and attempts to take off in the Juggernaught but gets infected... this would be a ideal explanation if we are going the whole AC Juggernaught is the Derelict route...

This Engineer would have to be on Paradise prior though.... as if he arrived latter via  a Ship, why would he leave his ship to then try and use the Derelict...

The only Logical explanation is he investigates the crashed Juggernaught... gets infected.. awakens and then sets off a SOS to warn his fellow brothers....

But what happens to his other Ship?

The only logical answer would be more than One Engineer arrives..  one gets infected and then sets the SOS off to warn  the other/others what happened...

Then we have to ask... where does this/these other Engineers go... do they then go after the Covenant? This would have to be the Logical way if we go by the above events.. so that the AC sequel can touch upon the Engineers more....

some event if this is the case in the sequel would mean a encounter between the Covenant and Engineer ship which has to end with the Engineers being destroyed or else this brings up a whole lot of Plot Holes as far as Engineers not being involved in Alien movies.

So i think it all adds up unless it follows the events i put as far as Engineers at the bottom of my reply above...  i think it adds up to the Juggernaught in AC and Derelict being the same as being very very unlikely.

I agree, MuzzleNZ. Let's stick to the subject.

I wonder if the idea that David destroys LV-426 (If they had crash landed there) match with the fact that the space-jockey was “fossilized” (thousands of years old)? I suppose you mean that AC ends with The Covenant leaving the moon, and an engineer tries to leave with the juggernaut David and Shaw crash landed with but is caught by a facehugger and dies in the pilot chair? The corps would then have been there for 19 years or so? We have also more movies coming before the connection to Alien will be accomplished, I believe?

I also believe that the biological weapon that the engineers had constructed was meant to wipe out all living creatures, not the entire planet? I think the point was that they were dissatisfied with the outcome of the experiment of humans and wanted to start all over again - not totally destroy the whole planet?

maybe our aggressive nature is too much like theyr own and the see us as a future threat?

ali81: Yes, and their cloaks seem to imply that they have come further and that they are disappointed with their "children"?

But, can "Paradise" be LV-426? I have a problem with the time-issue (space-jockey being fossilised).

@QES 1200km diameter means there was never life there ever unless it was 90% bigger once.  It spins too fast to maintain a breathable atmosphere.  We're not talking about environmental shift we are talking about one of the chunks leftover after a death Star hit. That's all LV-426 could be if it was once Paradise. Ever. Leftovers from a total planetary detonation. And you are proposing that the derelict not only survived that, but stayed in the EXACT same position.

According to this http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/movies/alien/46737/alien-covenant-why-its-preview-footage-got-us-all-excited A:C takes place in Zeta 2 Reticuli, the very system LV-223 and LV-426 are located in. 

Wether 223, 426 or another planet/moon in Z2R is "Covenant" remains to be seen. 

As for the picture comparisons their POV have different ankles therefor judgement is tricky. Given we ignore the shape differences. 

I really hope it isn't as to me, the obvious arc is david did it and that stinks imo everything about it is lazy. I don't think it is as I don't think lv426, being only 1200km across is big enough to sustain such a lush eco system.

I've just saw the movie, it was awesome.