In light of Ridleys comments about the return of the Engineers

If the Engineers arrive at Paradise and are pissed at what has transpired by David's hand and determine us a threat for being dangerous by creating a being capable of wiping out races with 'Alien killer creations' isn’t that a bit rich when LV-223 was an installation they had established for creating a material capable of doing the same? And we weren't creating threats to their other creations 2,000 years ago when we were likewise determined as deserving of 'bacteriological drums of shit' so it seems we would be determined as life unworthy of life no matter what we did.  To Engineers humanity is equivalent to the disabled for the Nazis – for some unknown reason they consider us 'useless eaters'.

Nathan Adler

Of course it's a bit rich but its becoming very clear the Engineers view themselves as above humans in every way and are not content to share the universe with us if we get even the slightest bit out of hand. 

In current timeline in the movies, I think the Engineers will view humans as not just slightly out of hand, but a full blown threat at becoming more powerful and dangerous than the Engineers now that Weyland decided to play god and his creation also decided to play god. Look at the chaos this spawned.

None of this takes away from my point though, in the next movie/s I think RS has to show the Engineers wanting to finally wipe us out for good, which I think he will. It seems silly that any returning Engineers would give humans a pass in light of recent events.

@EWATYAMORPH: Ridley has recently revealed that the Engineers were not responsible for the creation of humanity, so it further questions their right to consider that we need to be weeded out.  That is, if they didn't create us at what point did they put themselves at the top of the galactic hierarchy?  Is it just that they don't want competition?

Nathan Adler

Yup you are right, it does question their right to assume they are responsible for cleansing Earth of our presence, but they certainly feel they are qualified to make that call and as you say it could well be a competition type thing, but in light of more recent events, it is now more of a survival thing is it not?

Look at what happened to one of their worlds on Covenant, they will trace that all the way back to humans responsibility and view us more now than ever from the angle of "they gotta go", don't you think?. 

It will be interesting to see if RS inserts higher beings than the Engineers, and what their view is on the Engineers wishing to wipe out humans, and indeed what their personal view on humans and their synthetic creations is. 

Interesting potential in the next movie/s.

@EWATYAMORPH: I'm still convinced the Engineers are intended to be equivalent to the Biblical Watchers/Sons of God and they're determined to wipe us out because of jealousy.

Nathan Adler

In the Novelisation David touches on the Engineers thoughts on this matter here a bit, I don't have it with me at work to quote but if you haven't read it and don't mind hearing some content from it I'll insert his thoughts into this discussion later when I have the book. 

It seems there may be a feeling of definite competition between the Engineers and other species of matching DNA such as us humans. The Engineers I believe will suffer no contenders to the top spot and will actively look to wipe out whole planets of species should they fall out of line or rise above their station.

Again, I would be very curious to find out anything on a higher species of beings than the Engineers and what their thoughts on all this madness is.

Is their one true higher creator and humans and Engineers are just two different groups of beings albeit with the same DNA?, and the Engineers wish to be viewed as the top dogs of this pile.  

@EWATYAMORPH: Well that's interesting since the Watchers/Sons of God left their first estate (Heaven) and set themselves up to have dominion over the world of matter which I guess if you inserted this in the Alien mythos, that would be our universe. So the inhabitants of the first estate would be outside of our universe, and perhaps what they look like can be found in the art/ conceptual design of HR Giger!?  Thoughts?

Nathan Adler

I am only very very briefly acquainted with the sons of god/watchers etc through snippets I've read, and IIRC they are referred to as angels sometimes are they not?, but just so we are on the same page do you think RS has created the Engineers with these watchers in mind?.

Did you also know the term Malakak in some ALIEN stories refers to the Engineers and in some writings of these sons of god/watchers there are similar words to malakak mentioned in reference to them. (Various different spellings etc like malakha).

Maybe RS did have this in mind when he created the Engineers.

So they are a higher species than us, much older and from somewhere else but seeked dominion over our universe and also us. Is this the line of thought you are on. 

There has been no evidence presented that engineers created humans only that we share dna, I took the opening scene of Prometheus being that the engineers infected an already existing planet with the black goo with an already existing lifeform that became human... We were never supposed to evolve or survive .

Epaphroditus

We haven't stated here that the Engineers created humans, only that they view humans as below the despite the matching DNA.

And if the Engineers sacrifice at the beginning of Prometheus was what created humans "by mistake" and that planet is actually Earth, then why not wipe us out earlier if we were a mistake and were "never supposed to evolve or survive". They could have wipe humans out a lot earlier and just tried again rather than watch us become out of control murderous barbarians that nailed Jesus to the cross and other crazy stuff over thousands of years.

And isn't it true that the Sacrificial Engineer is purposely seeding that planet, and it has never been confirmed it is Earth.

Hmm, well this ALL depends on how badly the FOX execs as well as Hill and Giler kibbitz and bugger things. It also depends on who FOX hired to write the scripts, and frankly I shudder to think that Lindelloff is involved.

I trust R. Scott.

I do NOT trust FOX, Hill or Giler.

Damon Lindelloff is an amateurish hack who had to resort to ripping off DALLAS to end LOST, that alone says all that needs be said, and what he thinks regarding any particular fanbase.

See, there are some who trust RS! The franchise is not done yet. The next one should do better with Engineers involvement, provided RS has another shot at it and this is the direction we are heading. 

Hill and Giler have no involvement in the Alien franchise, other than getting a paycheck. Lindeloff has his own projects going and is not involved in the next one.

I think it is time to discuss the relevance of the engineers to the Alien franchise in more general terms. I would like to start the discussion by reflecting on the following two points.

(1)

The pictograms shown by Holloway during the briefing in "Prometheus" originate exclusively from prehistoric and ancient cultures (Ancient Egypt, Ancient Mesopotamia, Ancient America and so on). There are no examples from more recent epochs like the Middle Ages or modern times. This implies that the engineers stopped visiting earth centuries ago, maybe even millennia ago. At the present moment we can only speculate about the reason why they stopped visiting mankind. For reasons that are still unknown the engineers wanted to wipe out mankind at the beginning of the Christian Era. But after the outbreak on LV 223 no further attempt to execute this plan seems to have been undertaken. Yet this mission must have had a very high priority as becomes clear when the engineer awakened in "Prometheus" immediately readies his spacecraft for the flight to earth. Humanity's entry into the age of space travel seems not to have been noticed by the engineers. So we have to ask ourselves: Where are the engineers when mankind starts to advance into deep space in the course of the 21st century?

(2)

This question leads to the second point that troubles me. I don't see the point of introducing the engineers to the Alien franchise. They are completely irrelevant to the stories told in "Alien", "Aliens", "Alien 3" and "Alien Resurrection". At the time of "Alien" (2122) and "Aliens" (2179) mankind has no knowledge of the engineers. There have been no encounters that became publicly or commonly known. In 2122 some people at Weyland-Yutani only know that there is "something" on LV 426. The crew of the Nostromo clearly have never before seen traces or heard about traces of a space-faring extraterrestrial species (and it is rather puzzling that they don't discuss their extraordinary discovery, focusing instead exclusively on Kane's condition). Ripley's report at the beginning of "Aliens" is met with incredulity. When Ripley mentions a "derelict spacecraft" nobody is astonished and bothers to ask questions. The members of the commission seem to think that Ripley is talking nonsense. One member says that there are "over 300 surveyed worlds". So by the end of the 2170s several hundred planets have been explored and partly settled. But nowhere humans seem to have encountered engineers, living or dead. This can only mean: By the time of "Aliens", maybe even already by the time of "Alien", engineers are either (completely) extinct or they are living in parts of the galaxy that are so far away that humans cannot reach them.

Regarding a reappearance of the engineers in a possible sequel to "Alien Covenant", the scriptwriters must take into account that by 2122 engineers are not commonly known to humans. The encounter between humans and engineers in the sequel must therefore end in such a way that the existence of the engineers doesn't become common knowledge among humans. The encounter must end with the demise of both sides. If the humans survive, they would surely report about the engineers to earth. If the engineers survive, they would surely want to find out more about mankind.

What do you think about all this?

Kethol

Hill and Giler are infamous for kibbitzing and messing about, they dislike something RS is doing they run whining to the FOX execs, who for some reason I cannot fathom actually pay attention to them.

Andrew1975

Believe me I have pondered exactly the type of things you are touching on in you're post. RS probably just hadn't really fleshed out any back story to the Engineers or had any solid prequel plans when he made ALIEN so there is no mention of them as Engineers so yes it looks like he will have to make an end to the movie that connects to ALIEN that sees the Engineers completely disappear to more far out reaches of the galaxy or something along that lines, well, apart from the lone Space jockey pilot, if he/it does indeed turn out to be an Engineer, which I'm quite sure he will as I don't think the idea that the SJ is David, or a human, works very well.

As always with RS, we will just have to accept what he gives us on screen but the best explanation I can come up with is that he simply did not have all this Prometheus/Engineers type stuff fleshed out at time of ALIEN so never felt the need for characters to mention the Engineers.

Maybe not the answer you were looking for mate but it may just be one of those things...

@EWATYAMORPH - We may also assume Weyland-Yutani had kept any knowledge of Engineers highly classified for a long time?

Weyland-Yutani wanted to capture the xenomorph at any costs, so they might have known about it.

This is a nice thread that i can indeed put a lot of Cents into and more than just TWO.

First at the OT and indeed EWATYAMORPH you are not alone in your interpretation of Paradise, its a point i had wondered even prior to a sequel being made... and certainly when AC was announced and Set Photos came out and then right to seeing AC i was drawn to the same.

I have covered in a number of Topics over the last few months, but yes this Place seems like the Cradle of Humanoid civilization or at least was a attempt to Re-create a Humanoid Civilization.

I can go into great detail but i have done to many times and i am a bit tired so i would be adding more, but in a nutshell, such a theory as this Place (Paradise) is where the Hierarchy collect Sacrifices from to use to Seed Worlds is a theory that i do hold very possible..  It fits with Paradise as far as the Biblical One, it fits with how these beings on Paradise have no real Technology apart from One Scorpion Ship Watching over this City and a Hanger..

The Hanger is important and as i had mentioned a while ago and few times well a lot lol since... the Hanger has Statues that are like the Buddha Offering Statues.

And so yes, i too thought this fitted with this Place (Paradise) was the place they chosen their Sacrifices from.

A big Problem is WHY?  and so why create life... why seed Worlds when these beings could Procreate? Well they have Females... so why not?

Well Spaights had said regarding the Engineers that they could Procreate at one point but they had evolved themselves past the need for this and lost this ability and so in order to Create Life / Pass on their Genetics.. they had to come up with Alternative methods... Hence Sacrificial Scene.

But we see Females in AC, but these beings also are similar height to Humans for the most part and they also do not look like the Engineers... some do.. most do-not... they look like a Hybrid Race or a Missing Link that connects Engineers to Mankind.

RS confirmed they are Engineers, but then he said the Engineers are not a RACE but a Civilization... which can only mean a Culture of Humanoid Races... he also mentioned regarding the Engineers how there are many different versions of Humans and so why cant they be different versions of them...

Still makes no Sense to Sacrifice if they have Females.. unless its because they just Do/Can... RS had said regarding the Sacrificial Scene that its not the only way they create Life but its the way they Choose to do so.

Maybe thats right... but the deleted Elders Scene did have some Dialog and only One Line has even been released.

"Let your body become the dirt! Your blood become the waters. May your soul become their way back to us"

so there was a very Good Reason for the Sacrificial Scene.

Now as RS said that Scene does not have to be Earth, it could any other place and so this has happened on Many worlds..  But maybe we can assume Originally it happened on Paradise?

If the Engineers Evolved themselves so they lost Females.. this would explain the interest in Dr Shaw... and indeed fits with the Das Reingold Opera...   The Engineers may have lost Females..

So the Sacrificial Scene is a attempt to bring back Females as the other method was maybe clone themselves but they just get a copy of copy etc....

The Engineers had then managed to create Females by this method and brought some back to Paradise to Breed with Genesis 6:4

"There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them"

so then we have Hybrids, Humanoid + Engineer which then we would get if a Humanoid/Engineer Female mated with a Engineer we would then get a 2/3rd Humanoid and a 3rd Engineer Hybrid... if instead these Hybrids breed with Each Other then they would become closer to Human...

So i think various interbreeding then happened and this explains the different looking Folk on Paradise.. who are not a Single Race but a Civilization.

@Nathan Adler

Indeed its something to consider as far as the Engineers did not create Mankind.... it then raises a lot of Questions as to what the Sacrificial Scene means...  this could lead to Humanoid like Race which then Proves to be a Earlier Generation of Mankind and so Humans come from a Hybrid Race created by the Engineers... this fits with what a Source told me that Prometheus 2 was touching on.

But i think that whole quote is a misquote as i put in another Topic when we look at the over all context of what AC shows.. then i think the MADE is meant to be KILL

RS had said prior to AC well after he announced it...  but prior to Shooting (November 2015) That if the Engineers are the Forerunners to Mankind, then we have to ask what created Worlds to be Habitable to be able to support life... Where is the Big Guy (GOD)

But as this qoute is what RS had said, maybe he mixed his words up or not... it can be used to open up debates.

And disusing the whole Engineer Culture/History and Purpose is something i have studied and covered in Depth over 5 years and also the Black Goo too..

so i have a lot to add to this Topic and it will be a welcome to read other peoples interpretations even though some are different i think many of us are in and around the same Ball-Park ;)