In light of Ridleys comments about the return of the Engineers

@ BigDave Why did they use a discoidal ship in the sacrificial engineer scene? Is it possible that those engineers belong to a different civilization? Where they the gods/good engineers and the ones from LV_223 the fallen angels? Was there a rebellion on LV_223 and the bad engineers took control of the black goo ampoules. Even the engineers who were running in the hologram seemed different than the one found alive, I mean the severed head they found looked more like the sacrificial engineers to me. I wonder which ships will be used by engineers when they'll return to Paradise.

Cerulean Blue

Daliens

Yes we would certainly be able to swallow Weyland-Yutani knowing of the Engineers and just staying silent about it, as in not briefing Ripley or anybody aboard the Nostromo, or any of the other characters in the movies afterward, hence no mention of them in the older batch of movies. 

Although really RS maybe just did not have them fleshed out fully and had no solid prequel plans at the time he made ALIEN so any mention of them as Engineers, and any mention of their doings is absent.

We could certainly swallow the whole  classified/top secret thing though if that was the case. 

Big Dave

Welcome and thanks for the thread compliment. I see you have moved away from you're view that possibly RS was sloppy with his CGI/effects/make up on how he made the Engineers on Covenant look. After reading the Novelisation I got the vibe that these possibly were indeed the type of Engineers we see in the opening Prometheus scene (the Sacrificial),or the 223 looking type but obviously without the armour suit and maybe you were right on that, but I'll leave that for now and focus on you're post.

Yes, if we apply the translation of the Prometheus extended opening scene, and then view that world as what will become the world we see in Covenant then we could possibly view it as the Engineers somehow through evolution and/or genetic tampering lost their females, and wished to gain them back. So they managed that and then this became a sort of paradise like place for a peaceful civilisation of male and female Engineers to dwell.

Thing im curious about is that David calls the Inhabitants Of The world on Covenant the "original Engineers". He clearly states that in the Novelisation so I thought that world was possibly unbelievably ancient, possibly one of the first, if not the first but they never advanced their technology there tooooo far, but kept it sort of more... primitive like (but not too primitive as the Novelisation refers to it as a metropolis and it seems much bigger than how the movie portrayed it). Still though, like a pure paradise sort of place where they can always come back to and bestow upon an individual soul a great honour of sacrificing themselves to begin the circle of life on a new world elsewhere. RS does say that he sees the Engineers as the gardeners of space and the ships come and go so that seems to me this place is where the "seeders" or sacrifices are taken from, like sort of the original template or something??.

Maybe you are right though and there was once an older world before that, and they lost their females somehow and after that they were always trying to bring them back and managed this on the Covenant world. 

Thing is though I can't totally discount the comment RS made that they could create life the good old primitive way, but they simply chose to do it the genetic breakdown way.

There could be many reasons for this. Maybe they tried the colonist ship full of hundreds/thousands way once but had an accident that killed the colonists and therefore seeked for a safer way, and in time they came across/created the liquid substance and therefore then favoured that more advanced way instead of the old primitive way of flying hundreds/thousands of there kind to a new world and simply let them breed and spread like rabbits. 

Maybe they came to look upon the genetic breakdown way as a more pure way, worthy of bestowing upon a favoured individual from their peaceful paradise planet?. Like a reward or gift, that the individual was happy to receive, viewing it as a great honour to be the spark that creates new life on a new world. 

And it's not like they never had time on their hands, they seem to be arrogant enough to just go about their business being the gardeners of Space and flit around the universe returning to see how they're various gardens are growing even if it takes hundreds or thousands of years after the original seeding. They are very busy in the far reaches of various galaxies doing this I presume?. 

Big Dave

Maybe both ways are correct. There is an older world/s than the paradise planet, and they (the Engineers) somehow through evolution or genetic tampering lost their females and wished to bring them back.

They managed this on the Covenant planet so therefore saw this as a sacred dwelling to keep hidden and protected, that they could return to and take sacrifices from to seed further new worlds throughout the universe.

This sacred place then became the most favoured place to pluck there sacrifices from and they returned there over the years to take their individual seeder from that civilisation.

This vibes well with Ridleys comment that the ships returned there from time to time and the Engineers are the gardeners of space.

In this scenario there is obviously another older place where they originally hail from, which conflicts with Davids "original Engineers" comment from the Novel. Maybe he just meant that the peaceful Engineers in the robes etc seemed more original to him than the more advanced seeming military type who ripped his head off?.

"like sort of the original template or something??."

I think maybe yes...  There are a lot of contradicting comments and clues regarding everything Engineer related. So its a case of trying to figure out which fits best... I have not read the Novel Yet... so the Original Engineers is a interesting comment.

I had information passed at the end of Feb 2015 regarding the Plans for Prometheus 2 that was based of the Paglen/Green Draft as of October 2014, this person had passed on a lot of information regarding the Engineers which i again can pass on here... but its hard to say if this is 100% correct because AC is a different movie to P2 as the movie was re-written quite a lot during the summer of 2015 by Logan and Harper.  But the Sources comments to give some light on the Engineers.  I will post this another time.

So we have to figure out how the Engineers are connected, and indeed we may have to consider the appearance of the Engineers in Covenant a Oversight... they had appeared on screen up close for a few seconds and so in Hindsight maybe RS felt that better Make Up and Black Out Contact Lenses was not needed.

Or maybe there is a reason they looked different?  Surely RS did not learn from how his Prometheus Engineers who had gone from 15ft to 12ft then to 9-10ft at the time Prometheus was ready to shoot... and how they only appeared to be 7.5-8ft tops due to not using LOTR kind of Trickery and Effects.

But in AC we can clearly see a lot of these Dead Bodys are Human Size.... maybe Oversight and Budget Reasons or maybe there is a reason they are Human size.

RS comments about the Engineers not being a Race, but a Civilization and then suggesting how there are many variants of Mankind and so why cant there be many versions of Engineers, could well be a Key set of Clues to determine that there are different kinds of Engineers.

Its clear the Engineers are referred to as Gardeners of Space and they seem to be obsessed with Genetic Engineering, and indeed they have seeded Many Worlds. So these Engineers could have many different versions/generations.

The Source i had did mention that Mankind as of now is like 4th/5th Generation and that Engineers are connected to our Genetic Evolution and not Apes.

A interesting thing they mention about the LV-223 Engineers, was that they have a lot more in Common with David, which does not mean they are Robots...  but it certainly could mean they are not Born as Humans are... but they are Engineered and Engineered to perform a Purpose/Serve the other Engineer beings and Hierarchy.   so maybe the LV-223 Engineers are like Genetically Created Super Soldiers etc.

However they do look like the Sacrificial Engineers, the Sacrificial Scene in Prometheus did not have to be Earth, but its a hint that something like this had maybe happened on Earth.  This is also something they had done on many Worlds.

RS had mentioned that the Engineers came back over thousands of years to Evolve Mankind both Genetically but also Technologically (Taught us stuff) and so this means its not a case of Seed Worlds and leave it to Evolve... and then by a off chance Mankind appear who look very like the Engineers in a way but are different to other life on Earth apart from Primates... (i addressed this in my Prometheus 2 draft).

I also think that Seeding a World, and coming back to further Evolve the Life on a Planet is a very long winded way to go around things, than drop off some Engineers to start a Colony.. if Engineers can Procreate then surely dropping off a few hundred will indeed over Hundreds of Thousands of years lead to a Decent sized Civilization.  Even a smaller initial colony of Engineers could lead to a Larger one over thousands of years.. this depends on how many times a Female can bare Children and how long between a Birth can they then reproduce again.

But if they could no Procreate... and only Cloning is the way they can Genetically Produce, this would give a better reason for the Seeding Method.  

I think surely there has to be a reason for this route..

But back to what you put indeed, totally on the same page with this... if the Engineers are in pursuit of Perfection then you would want to keep a set of Prime Genetic Stock to use for Seeding....  or even Cloning... if we was to Create a Super Solider/Human  who had a IQ of 150+ stood say 6ft5" and 250 lbs in pristine Physical Condition, Fast, Strong and Agile.

If we call this Person ADAM and then we Clone him to create a Army... it would be better to Clone from ADAM we can assume that Cloning from ADAM to create a 2nd Generation Adam, then Clone 2nd Generation of Adam, to make a 3rd and continue over and over... will eventually not make as Perfect Clones as using the Original ADAM DNA

So i would assume... and so indeed keeping a Good Original Genetic Stock is important.  And so maybe the Engineers we see in Prometheus are Genetically Engineered for a Purpose and then they use these Genetically Engineered Engineers for seeding of Worlds...

A Purpose some of these Rebelled against... just as in the Annunaki Tale... thus Engineers are Igigi.. where i assumed Elders are the Annunaki... but maybe those beings on Paradise are the Annunaki.

If you are created a Genetically Superior Race in your image who are Physically Superior so that you can use their DNA to Seed Worlds instead of your own kind... then you would surely want to make sure these Genetically created beings Can-not Procreate... because if you lose control over them and they can Procreate and make a better New Race than your own.. this could be a Dreadful down-fall.

I ponder was Mankind created to replace those Genetically Engineered LV-223 Engineers, as per Annunaki Tale....

Certainly if those beings on Paradise are the Original Engineers... the whole Annunaki Tale is a Large Basis for my Engineer theory and how i was to tackle their Agenda/History.

If you look  at all the recent comments from Scott about the next movie, it gives a better picture of what is being written than just the comments about the four different players from that China press junket video.

"It starts off with a very grand idea—or a grand question, really. Who are they and why did they create such evil biology and bacteriology? And [in creating], to protect themselves from what? So the questions are…BEGINNING TO BE ANSWERED in Prometheus 2 (Covenant)".

"…Covenant gets us a step closer to who and why was this thing designed to make human beings. And if you think it’s them,” Scott said, gesturing to the monolithic figures of the Engineers surrounding us (hall of heads), “YOU'RE DEAD WRONG.”

".. fairly integral where this COLONIZATION SHIP IS ON THE WAY…" (in reference to the next film after Covenant)

"I always thought the journey would be very much embedded, at least 50% in RELIGION. Security blanket. YOU CAN GO THERE NEXT. When I get there, I'm looking at the COLONIES and what happens, and how it disintegrates…it's being written now, the sequel to Covenant"

"...we can bring it back to talk about the creation, inevitably about GOD…"

"Whether we bring Daniels back or not in the next one…she has to come back..I'm not sure that's the right thing"

"There will be three or four different players coming in to investigate, one of which will be the Engineers arriving back to find their planet decimated…Those ships (Juggernauts) come and go on regular intervals. I see them as the gardeners of space…where we go next is obvious. Were gonna actually go to the PLANET…"

"…The alien franchise should be into WAR OF THE WORLDS by now. That's where I'm going…they (Fox) don't know it yet, but that's what were doing, Fox."

And then there is this one. When he says 'three acts' he is not talking about a three-act movie, he is talking about a story arc across three movies.

 "...we've already got the three act plan on where it's going to go and where it's going to connect, but it's evolving and getting bigger all the time. I don't know where it will end!"

Big Dave

Cheers for the reply and further insight, I switch off from forums for most of the weekend so will be silent for a bit.

I'll pop back on soon enough and read through you're post again and contribute further. 

Have a good weekend folks.