Ridley Scott on the problem with Sci-fi

IG, is that not alien meets congo then? lol

"if u go back to alien, nothing happens for over 45 mins but was any of it boring?"

Certainly agree.... i think this is why Alien Covenant had its similar slow burn start....   and Alien Covenant was actually NOT that bad.. until David arrived and took them to the Cathedral Dome, it was at this point a lot of the Plot Revolved around David and Walter and the Human Characters just become Plot Devices.....

From when David had taken Oram into the Egg Room and until the END of the movie, all the Scenes/Plot points from this point were Rushed because there was so much to cover in such a Short Space of Time.  Hence the Necessity for the Quicker Xenomorph Gestation Time.

From when David and Oram enter Davids Work-Shop is where the movie needed a extra 45 minutes to do every Scene/Plot after this JUSTICE.... so its shame for such a short time to cram so little in.

ali81

Yes it is, and I would rather see that then another technology is 95% evil or how robots are immortal despite being decapitated in the previous movie. But the reversal of roles would be interesting.

Id agree that most aren't too into the whole thing being about David. the company fitted in nicely to the original films as a side plot, a sinister conspiracy plot behind the main movie focus but the beast was still the main focal point. theyv put far to much onto David and totally sacrificed the engineers for no real reason. the SJ in the derelict has become nothing more than a bitch species

I can see why the direction change happened.... as Technology is Knowledge and Evolving Knowledge and Technology can down the line lead to a Hubris.

The Change of Direction to brush Dr Shaw and Engineers under the Carpet was a bit of a disappointment but we have to ASK how else would this have ENDED? 

And so these are Questions needed to be solved in a Prometheus Sequel (prior to Alien Covenant Changes).

*We can assume Dr Shaw puts David back together to be able to leave LV-223 and go to Paradise.... HOWEVER.. Once David is back together then Dr Shaw is at the Whim of David and he can basically do what he wants and so its a Question of Does David KEEP to his side of any Covenant they made... and the Big Question is WHY.... whats in it for David?

*Does David take the Juggernaught to the Engineers Homeworld PARADISE? He could take a Detour first... or go some other place and basically give Dr Shaw what ever Reason or Excuse, he could even suggest any other place they GO is Paradise or that Paradise is NO more.

*IF David takes Dr Shaw to Paradise, or where ever else related to the Engineers.... Would this place have any BEINGS remaining, and if so we have to ask... 

a) Are these beings aware of who Mankind Are?

b) Are these beings aware of LV-223 and/or the plans to Eradicate Mankind?

c) How would these beings Receive Dr Shaw and David? If they are as hostile towards us as the LV-223 Engineers this does not Bold Well for them.

*What is the outcome of discovering the Engineers or other beings on Paradise or where ever David would take the Juggernaught.  There has to be a way to explain WHY the Engineers play no part in the Alien Franchise from 1979-1997.   If they discover these beings who have bad intentions for Mankind, or did but chose to abandon us, they surely would be concerned now THEY KNOW we can Find them.

*What is in it for DAVID what is his Agenda... i think now he is FREE he would not want to Serve, and its likely he would be interested to find out more about the Engineers/Their Creation and gain more of their Knowledge and Power... Provided it is of NO Risk to David. It is likely David would want to be the KING now and Play GOD.

So that was basically the Set-Up as far as David and Shaw and what they DO NEXT and Ridley Scott gave us a insight to this...

He mentioned along the lines of.... THEY (David and Shaw) are off to the Engineers Home World, where THEY do find these BEINGS.  But these beings are NOT Gods... not in the TRADITIONAL sense and they are FAR from BENEVOLENT... However David is bringing HELL with him and what happens if the Black Goo INFECTS a God or a Machine?

This certainly answers some of those Bullet Points i made earlier, so they are indeed off to where the Engineers came from, the beings they discover are not Benevolent.. not as far as Humanity and our Purpose is...  But David has the Black Goo.... does he Destroy them? Or does the Black Goo become a Bargaining Chip for David something that will make those beings Re-consider how they react to David and Shaw.

The Source i had from February 2015 based of Drafts from October 2014 (they claim) had painted a picture of what Prometheus 2 would have been...  And indeed it paints the picture that Dr Shaw ends up finding out her Answers at First Hand by revealing the Truth was Sinister, and that David wishes to play GOD and he basically uses Dr Shaw to CREATE his OWN  Xenomorph/Deacon well he Re-Creates it.

And ALAS... 6 Months latter when we get the Announcement about Alien Covenant and 14 Months prior to Shooting... many parts of what the Source Claimed ACTUALLY are passed on to Alien Covenant... with some Changes off course...

Prometheus and Bladerunner (and 2049) deal with audacious questions. Who created us and indeed what is creation. Both P.L. and BR2049 covered similar issues. The Engineers .. engineered and the Tyrell Corporation.... engineered and both found their creations grew beyond their visions.  

In to that comes ambiguity Shaw, K, David, Deckard and Stelline with Shaw and Stelline the sandwich on the outside of three ambiguous creative outcomes.

Thats what my generation wanted from Prometheus and Bladerunner sequels. That AVP Galaxy think that Covenant is better than Prometheus and enthuse about the Predator shows the audience is deeply segmented. Thats what you get when you play around with a franchises aesthetics. Ridley wanted to explore the mystery of his first film and create more mystery that was achieved with BR2049 on the back of BR with Prometheus he left himself vulnerable which is ironic because every movie in the A L I E N franchise since A L I E N S has suffered the same problem. If he had nailed Prometheus (narrative momentum, bullet proof risk behaviour, linkage some obvious answers and some great questions) he could have gone on.

the biggest issue facing RS where Prometheus especially is concerned is we know where it supposed to go. that's the trouble with prequels. we know the ending and so the alien fans were just waiting to see the film and then after it say 'awe so that's what happened' and 'so that's why this'. they didn't get that but in their pursuit of shooting Prometheus down they forgot the basics of the first film in a trilogy. u r not meant to get any of the answers. its supposed to raise questions. THERES 2 MORE FILM TO COME DUMBASSES. what exactly did people expect to get out it?? everything revealed so theres no point in any other films? for me, as a first in a trilogy that WAS supposed to be a stand alone series that 'came in through the back door' to alien and delve into the only remaining true mystery of the franchise, Prometheus was a great start imo. went in a different direction and if allowed to proceed on its intended path the whole franchise could have been blown wide open for countless other films in so many different directions. but, sadly nope. we get a follow up film that's 20% what was intended and 80% heres ur f*****g monsters u moaning faced degenerates. ah well. awakening will be what it will be.

I could not have said it any BETTER ;)

Indeed Michelle RS was trying to explore something Greater, to OPEN up the Franchise beyond just the Xenomorph...  but giving in to the Fanbase that would rather had a Blomkamp ALIEN 5 has only just SHRUNK the Franchise even Smaller than maybe ALIEN because that Scope behind the Mystery and Prequels has now been Shoe-horned into a Corner...

RS holding on to his Guns with his Philosophy by persuading the Change to David being the Creator.... which has upset mainly the Fanbase who contributed to Prometheus 2 becoming the Alien Flick that Alien Covenant was...

@Michelle Johnston

Well that poll on avpgalaxy was taken from a little more than 3000 votes, with a maybe 30 more Covenant answers. That's absolutely not relavant. On the same site there is another poll which says that more people would like to see Alien 5 than Covenant 2, with 7000 votes. Both irrelevant because of the small numbers. With sites with many users like IMDB, RottenTomatoes or Metacritic Covenant is worse by about 0.5-0.6 points out of 10.  There is a downward trend in the audiences as a whole.

And even the Predator has some pretty loud voice who are worried.

@ ignorantGuy

You missed my point entirely. I indicated that the fan base, of which AVPGalaxy is a very prominent and well respected component, is segmented. There is an element of echo chamber feedback where particular sites will produce particular outcomes but the overall mosaic when put together is highly fragmented. 

This conversation has mentioned AVP/AC Com and general movies goers who can be bothered to contribute to movie feedback sites. The overall outcome is indecisive except in one regard Prometheus made more money. 

What all the feedback I have read agrees on is Ridley misread the criticisms of Prometheus. People wanted more clarity as to how what they found on LV 223 related to the Xenomorph not more Xenomorph. That was one of the questions that should have been answered before moving on to much more fertile territory. 

Michelle Johnston

That site might be representative of how one group thinks, but not how that big that group is. And even here and there usually only about 20 people contribute regularly. Can anyone draw any coherent conclusion in this situation? Probably not.

But what do I know.

"So what you try to do is lean more heavily on the story and the characters." - original post

That sounds like a total irony since the characters are what both Prometheus and Alien Covenant lacked. He seems to contradict himself here, the question is if he understands that or if he is misquoted.

Unfortunately I did not feel that much for Shaw or Daniels but at least Daniels was not naive like that. Prometheus was alright in the way that it did try something new (Engineers) but the lame characters was its downfall Not the lack of the Xenomorph.

Yes I did not like how AC focused on David and Walter, that was a mistake and made the prequels worse. It seemed to me that Scott only cared about the androids which is something that I am totally opposed to.

"In AC he is just a mad scientist." - IRaptus

Yes they made him worse, I hope that they will repair that if we would get another movie. I am not sure if they have learned from that looking at the criticism of Alien Covenant.

Interesting environments and new monsters is not enough. We need human characters that we can support and feel something for. Unfortunately the prequels have failed with the character part this far in general and therefore they are far from satisfactory.

Big Dave: As far as Fox looking at the problems with Prometheus. One million persons said that one huge problem was bad characters. 10 000 claimed that there was no Xeno that was the problem. Fox listened to the 10 000. *sigh* The podcast Perfect Organism claimed this and from looking around at the www I tend to agree with them. To me it seems that Fox and Scott totally misunderstood the criticism against Prometheus.

"Prometheus just never had that ALIEN Haunted house Feel, it never had that ALIENS Action Feel and it certainly lacked Horror and Gore and Humans Dealing with Horrific Alien Creatures as good as the ALIEN Franchise had." - Big Dave

I would have been alright with that if they would have had better characters. They messed up the characters so that is why we were given the quality of Prometheus.

Nah, I would not care about a movie that is told from the Xeno's POV.

".... i think the Curve-ball is something that has not settled well with Fans." - Big Dave

Yeah, I just think that it is . . . boring.

"RS also knew you had be invested in the Characters... so SLOW Build up was used with Alien Covenant so that they dont rush into the Xenomorph/Alien Encounters and $&%& Hitting the Fan too soon...  Sadly the Build up did nothing to really bring home the Characters."  -  Big Dave

I would like to question that, maybe not as far as the time issue but that we need well-written characters. It does not mean anything if they spend a lot of time to introduce them if they are not well written.

"Because the Majority of the Plot was around David and his Agenda/Actions and his interactions/differences with Walter."-  Big Dave

Exactly, that is one of the reasons why Alien Covenant is one of the worst Alien movies this far. I am not interested in Alien being turned into robot movies because it removes a big part of the human element that is needed for these kind of movies to work. If we will get another movie like that in the Alien series then I will sure as hell boycott it.

The differences between Walter and David was interesting but they were almost the only characters that were fleshed out and they are androids so therefore AC turned into a turd mostly although there are things that I like about the movie. As a whole it is a disappointment I am sorry to say.

"if u go back to alien, nothing happens for over 45 mins but was any of it boring? hell no." - Ali81

The difference is that they managed to get well done characters in Alien, in AC they did not.

As far as introducing a new kind of monster like Big Dave says I am not opposed to that but it would reduce the threat of the Xeno. For this to happen they got to make the Engineers or those above them threatening as F. This could work but they got to seriously think about it and to work on it so it will be done well. I would totally support this if it is done well

To me the movie became worse once Oram was killed since I feel that he was the only human character that was thought out. When he died it was a wait until the movie was over since both Daniels and the hat man (Tennessee, I almost forgot his name) were not well written at all but at least Oram seemed to have some sort of story behind him with his faith and that.

". . . its the worst film in the franchise by a long way. . . " - Ali 81

I think that it is better than AVP at least. Sometimes I think that it is better than AR so it is not the worst if you ask me.

@ignorantGuy Regarding the IMDB...

We have to remember Review Sites cover Fans plus General Casual Viewers too... those who review the Movies on that Site and Others we can not say all Reviews are from 100% Alien Fans as in Fans who spend lots of time dedicated to the Franchise, and Merchandise.

Regarding Michelle's comments i can see the points made by both of you i think what she was saying is the AVP-Galaxy Fanbase tends to have a higher % who are more into the Aliens and AVP aspects, where as on HERE we have a higher % who are into Prometheus/Alien

Thats not to say every fan on that site are Ripley/Queen Fanboys or that every fan on here are Ridley Scott/Space Jockey Fanboys...

And indeed these sites combined only account for a small proportion of Fans who would regular watch a Alien Franchise movie.

"all but at least Oram seemed to have some sort of story behind him with his faith and that."

Oram was in effect the Dr Shaw of this Story, to a degree, i felt too he had the most Pain in this Story...  Especially finding out to his Horror his Wife Karine was in grave Danger and then making it to the lander to find it Blow Up.

I think the story should have been pushed with more depth and longer scenes leading up to Orams Face Hugging..... Have Walter (David) leave the Cathedral with a Passed out Oram and so have the other deaths by Neomorphs.... and Lope being Perfectly Fine...

Then on the ship we see Oram is taken to the Med Bay and Put into Cryo-Sleep.....   To then after the Crew Relax.... have ORAM Chest bust and then we get a Longer Xenomorph on the Covenant Scene.

This would have allowed for more of a ALIEN Ordeal, a Longer Gestation...  But it would have also allowed the Viewers to Realize Walter is David much more Earlier.... (but come on who never knew that way prior ;)

The Problem with this ONE Chest Buster in the Movie... would have been it would have meant

a) we dont get the David and Chest Buster Scene we had, which was to show David as the Puppet Master to his Creation.

b) have this scene on the Covenant but then we would know Walter is David prior to the Last Scene.

Most of your other comments Thoughts_Dreams i agree with.

A Massive Problem is the Engineers and the route Alien Covenant had taken, now show us something that makes the WHOLE Space Jockey, Derelict and Egg Cargo Scenes... just seem NOT ALIEN.

Exploring the Engineers and revealing the Bio-Mechanical Technology and where this Came from and Introduce something more ALIEN and HR Giger was maybe needed....  but sadly with the way AC was handled its harder to go back to this... but it could still be introduced.

The Problem now is giving us something more ALIEN than the Engineers, something more HR Giger and introduce a New Race and a World very HR Giger...  But at this point  doing that and having GOOD Human Characters is going to be HARD.

They have to either introduce a Good Human Characters in the Next movie where a few Survive to then in a 3rd movie get introduced to this more Alien HR Giger Race/World Threat... or Carry over Daniels to Survive the next movie and with a few others get introduced to this THREAT.

thoughts_dreams, I don't regard AVP or AVPR to be a part of the franchise, either franchise in that regard. to me, they r spin off films but its purely a personal stand point.

Big Dave: I felt for Oram when he realized Karine was in a bad situation. Unfortunately Karine was not well written but like the characters in general she was better than most in Prometheus since she was not dumb or annoying.

As far as understanding earlier that Walter was David, whatever, the human characters are more important. 90% of the movie was in favor of the androids so if they would have reduced that to 85% by doing that then it would not have affected the movie that much.

"a) we dont get the David and Chest Buster Scene we had, which was to show David as the Puppet Master to his Creation.
b) have this scene on the Covenant but then we would know Walter is David prior to the Last Scene."

Those things could probably have been fixed, done in another way that still would work.

Yeah they need to get the mystery back. I think that they still could introduce something more interesting but it should not be at the expense of the human characters. They must get better human characters in the next movie. It will not matter to me if it will be the last because they have let us down twice with that so now they got to make up for it so the prequels will get that right once at least and avoid to be a total disaster. Unfortunately it seems to me that the prequels will be the Phantom Menace of the Alien franchise but we still have the first three movies.

Ali81: Fair enough

I think it shows the error of their ways in HINDSIGHT

The Problem with a U-Turn to now connect to ALIEN rather than steer away from ALIEN is they now have to Spoon Feed us and Shoe-horn in a Plot to Connect to ALIEN in TWO movies.

And so indeed Human Characters are going to be important.... they could maybe Feed us Engineer Characters but that would be tricky unless we get introduced to some Fragile Engineer Characters we can Pity but again with the use of Sub-Titles how do they convey their Plight?

The Universe could have been potentially HUGE and they could have had David and Dr Shaw go off to a place THOUSANDS of Light Years away and so the Events Do-Not Conflict the Original Franchise.

We we can ASK... is Earth the only place the Engineers Seeded Humans?  So there is potential for another Human Civilization in the further reached of the Galaxy, just as the Battle Star Galactica Franchise had... so for instance Caprica.

Then we could get Human Characters introduced.... the only PROBLEM Faced here is  the COINCIDENCE if they can Talk English.  Unless its revealed they learned this from Engineers but then we have to ask WHY David had to Translate for Weyland in Prometheus, they could reveal that some Engineers Arrived on Earth to Rescue some Humans and take them to another Colony and these Speak English as thats the only real way it would make more sense.  Because other Humans that would need Sub-Titles because they speak a Alien Tongue would not allow us to connect to the Characters.

So there is a PROBLEM with how to introduce Characters... the options they have are these.

1) Show us the Movie Set After a Colony has been set up, where David is Pretending to be Walter and the Colony have NO idea what happened to the Real Walter and the Crew that died in 2104.  If we have a Set Up Colony, Families etc then we could maybe engage with them.  BUT for this to work there would have to be a Handful who Survive the Colony and go on to the 3rd Chapter in the Prequels (Alien Covenant Pt 3).

2) Have one of the incoming Human Ships introduce us to Characters who we can make a connection with, and again as per (1) have a few of these Survive to the Following Movie.

3) Somehow have Daniels and Tennessee come back in some role and have ONE of them Survive to the Following Movie... THIS would be hard to do as it would conflict Davids Plans as Daniels is aware of who he is.

My idea for a Alien Covenant Sequel...  Alien: Ascension does cover all 3 of those done in a way i think fits WELL... only my Movie Plot is also a lot about David and AI though.. and little to do with the Xenomorph and Engineers.... they only come into it during the latter stage of the 3rd Act but will play a larger role in the following Movie.. Alien: Absolution

I respect and appreciate Ridley for being such an amazing talent and not taking no for an answer when it came to the original ALIEN. He produced my two favourite films ALIEN and Bladerunner. So I will always be thankful to him for that.

However, in recent years he seems to have lost what once came natural to him; To put together something that is original and awe inspiring. 

When he created ALIEN he was at a stage of experimentation. Every artist was in the late 70's and early 80's. That's why there's so much good stuff from that period.

Originality in hollywood has dripped away since the 80's like tears in rain.

It is possible to still make a great Hollywood sci fi film, however. Bladerunner 2049 and Ex-Machina come to mind.

However, when one tries to create an ALIEN prequel through the big studio's they better be ready for criticism.

The actual backstory of the SJ, derelict and {cargo?} of eggs would be way too surreal and disturbing for the big studios to green light.

Ridley making excuses and not even bothering to look into it and really stop to think why it wasn't as widely appreciated is disappointing to say the least.

An ALIEN prequel shouldn't have any logic. It shouldn't be brought down to earth. It should be original. It should be completely ALIEN.  

Totally Agree....

The Prometheus Plot was Great.... if this was changed to a Stand Alone Movie, where the Juggernaught does not resemble the Derelict, where the Engineers Suits and Pilot Chair does not resemble the Space Jockey Scene.  If the Monsters and Murals have NO Xenomorph/Alien connections... so its a Stand Alone Movie... and it had the flaws as far as some Dodgy Acting/Scenes Fixed... then PROMETHEUS could have been a Masterpiece.

The Engineers/Ancient Alien Plot is Good, but for many it was just bringing the Space Jockey too closer to Home/Humanity and this got even less Alien with Alien Covenant.

Discovering a Ancient Alien Species not Connected to Earth, Involved in some Ancient War or other Agenda... that the Humans Stumbled upon via the Derelict could have worked better.

Some Giant Humanoid but not so Human Looking Race who are not connected to our Gods etc and History and then Explore as far as Xenomorph Origins some of the ideas HR Giger had, surely would have been the way to GO.

Maybe Reveal this Race had used Humanoids like the Engineers to Sacrifice themselves....  But a Plot like this could still be Pulled off.

HR Gigers ideas were more disturbing... a Living Ship, that is Grown and a Ship that is Genetically Connected to the Xenomorph and Creates the Xenomorph Eggs, we need only to see HR Gigers Mural for Alien to see this, and note this Mural was supposed to be put in the Cargo Hold above Bio-Mechanical like Pregnant Bellies that HR Giger had Envisioned would Produce the Eggs.

Throw in the Need to have Sacrifices to be Connected to the Ship to have their Genetic Makeup drained to Create the Eggs and we have a Horrific Plot at hand.

Big Dave:

Spoon-feeding is not good either since they got to keep some mystery left. I would like to see more of the Engineers but not at the expense of human characters.

It would be interesting if there were other humans in the Galaxy where the Engineers created life. I am not sure if it is enough to make a movie about but it is something to think about just for how interesting the idea sounds like.

As far as what kind of languages that they speak I think that what is important is that they ware well written and that we can care for them, that is the most important thing. Engineers speaking English well then maybe there needs to be some answer to how they learned that or do they have Engineers that know different human languages if the Engineers and the development of mankind are tied together ins some way?

I like the suggestions one and two. Maybe there is a way to combine those. I am not sure if we need Daniels or Tennessee since they were not well written but sure they can be back if they get them right this time. We do not need to see when they set up the colony, they did not in Aliens at least and also there are more important things to spend the time on in the movie. OK, I do not like that the Alien series focuses too much on AI but other franchises could do so if they were more suited for that. By they way it would be the first time in the prequels where we would get people surviving a movie and follow into the other.