prometheus opening scene

As I explained to Chili privately I wanted to dip out of the conversation because :-

1) I do not believe in A:C.

2) I know what the opening scene is meant to represent based on the directors commentaries and editors commentaries and the reasons for the edit are not to do with story but to do with theatrical choices.  

As I am profoundly interested in Prometheus and the ideas that Ridley and Damon had and as to where they were going next when they were wrapping promoting the movie I have been looking at contemporaneous interviews from 2012.

https://youtu.be/dCf7FIliQHA

https://youtu.be/uM3z9ahol0A

There are some wonderful insights in both and they give a sense of how much the viewer should pitch into the movie. I particular like what Logan had to say about how science and belief met at the point of origin and both were completely wrong which is how I see the mythos. 

I also enjoyed Damon saying that a follow through from Prometheus would have absolutely nothing to do with the Alien or its lifecycle, his vision of realising what Ridley wanted in 2012 was entirely tangental. So arriving at the Engineers Home world in that craft we see erupting into the heavens was going some place very different artistically and Prometheus was made for adults so the follow through would be for adults with the same adult pre occupations. Adult in this instance not being a legal term but people who want thought provoking movies which gives them permission to work things out for themselves.

Two final points Ridley makes the point Prometheus is about theft and the misuse of technology and the connectivity between Alien and Prometheus the rudder if you like is the Ted Talk by Peter Weyland. The connection with the Space Jockey was very simple you simply get to see who was sat in the chair his precise destination and purpose a mystery but the Juggernauts were bombers.  

These types of interviews should help people see the difference between exposing what was intended and overthinking. 

"These types of interviews should help people see the difference between exposing what was intended and overthinking. "

I will watch these in a bit Michelle, thanks for sharing.  I think while Prometheus was ambiguous and depending how/what scenes you take in and how you interpret them and what extras or other things you use (drafts) can draw you to a conclusion that can differ a little.   I always felt it was just as important if not more to listen to the comments made by Ridley Scott and Co.... as many of these paint a picture of what they was trying to achieve and where they was going next, which certainly Painted up a Picture that was different to what we got in Alien Covenant.. but things change as they go along...  It appears they maybe felt the whole Ancient Astronaughts/Chariots of the Gods and Promethean and Paradise Lost Themes were more interesting to peruse than the Already Done to Death Xenomorph.  It is a shame that in Hindsight there was just not quite enough Xenomorph Clues or Alieny Feel to Prometheus so that the Door could have been SHUT to Alien and allowed the Door to do something NEW and Different was open... 

It is a shame some of these Themes now have to draw direct context with the Xenomorph, when they could have and were inferred to loosely.  I would say that a Majority of Fans, especially those who liked Alien and the Mystery have to be disappointed in Alien Covenant... i think it still touched upon some of the Prometheus Plot/Themes and the David Creates it, certainly fits with the overall Themes, but more so would have been David Perfects his OWN because some of the revelations in AC just dont please many, it even  never had enough to Please Fanboys.

I think we can hope that we get more depth to some of what could have been, but i am concerned at the time of the aftermath, FOX are interested in Xenomorphs and Ridley Scott Focus on his AI, and i agree with RS when the Sequel to Alien Covenant should be more about AI, and it appears introducing the Engineers back into the Fold, over the Xenomorph.. I really do wonder if RS is pleased with what they GOT, or would have rather had gone to where they was GOING.

We certainly got the impression the Door was to be close to ALIEN and the Xenomorph, but i think it was open in part to introduce something related, related to the Black Goo at very least.. But i was drawn to think it seemed a sequel would not FOCUS on what ever MONSTERS they introduced as much as the other Aspects.. were as Alien Covenant was Focused on the Monsters to a large degree, but more so... Focused to bring us to the Iconic Monster.. were i felt there was room for something NEW.

If one accepts Rldley's view of the sacrificial scene it can without over thinking it be given more thematic context. Ridley had given thought to tying Christ's sacrifice on the Cross into the reasoning behind the attack on Earth. However he decided it was to on the nose but it enables the Cross to enjoy a more powerful relationship with the events on the Planetoid.   

"Does the Cross event prove that planet Earth deserves to be aborted by self-appointed Gnostic gods bent on “benevolent” genocide? Or does the Cross event prove that planet Earth is “The Chosen Planet” where Providence has chosen to unveil the true meaning of life everywhere in the universe, and how all life in the universe is to be understood ultimately in relation to God?"

Naturally the answer as to which interpretation is right would depend on Elizabeths answers to her questions and not just what the Engineers on the planetoids intent was but why they ended up decimated, was their a philosophical reason for all their deaths bar one.

The sacrifice at the beginning brings life,

In the story Christ's sacrifice occurs at the the time the Engineers of the planetoid are destroyed, sustaining life.

In the movie Elizabeths exhortation to Janek, Chance and Ravel ensures that through sacrifice life is sustained.

The person representing science on one side but who maintains her ability to persevere through her faith (Noomi's words) heals the person who represents knowledge.  

So does her journey to Paradise/Engineers Homeworld achieve what is proposed in italics we come to see God more clearly through Christ saving us and if as Ridley indicates in those interviews he believes in an Intelligent Creation then the really provocative question is what does God look like.

That neatly brings us to December 2012 and the dream of tantalising interesting film making which had the audacity to let go of the Xenomorph so that Big Things would emerge. 

But to return to the original question the sacrifice at the beginning of the movie represents seeding life no more no less. However I also like this slight overlay "the Engineers genetic technology which when combined with the psychic energy of an appropriately self-giving sacrifice." Those sort of remarks of course suggest a degree of religiosity which is implicit in the promise chant not included but not discarded. 

@BigDave

Its much simpler than that. The audacity of Prometheus was dead and buried the moment they made pre quelling ALIEN the prime objective. Damon explains with clear and distinct reasons why a direct prequel was avoided in 2012 and its not because the guy was a fossil or I do not like David being the creator its because it robs the story of any surprise. As Damon calls it "the march towards the inevitable" 

I think a lot of people who Blamed Lindeloff for Prometheus need to see this interview, he touches upon that all he was doing was putting Ridley Scotts wishes into a Draft but he is also prepared to take the Fall that if the movie flops, then it really would be that he has failed to present Ridley Scotts Vision in the way it could have been...  So i think Lindeloff had a lot of Harsh Flak for Prometheus.

He is also very correct when discussing the Cons of a Prequel as in Direct One, where you are just connecting the dots.  What i found interesting is that he Foresaw that IF you try and do anything that DIRECTLY Chronologically links to a Movie, so in context with ALIEN if you go the route to Directly connect to ALIEN, if your Prequel is Flawed/Flops then indeed it can Diminish the Original and this is WHY they choose to Make Prometheus a movie that gives some hints, but is not a Prequel and any Sequel would not lead to Spoon Feed the Xenomorph Origin and HOW/WHEN/WHY the Space Jockey Ended up where he was.  Because as Lindeloff clearly states your connected Dots to what is known, but more so you run the risk of Diminishing the Original and i think After Alien Covenant how many can say the Reveal the Xenomorph had not Existed prior to the year 2094 was a touch of Masterclass?  So indeed Alien Covenant in part has not Elevated the Xenomorph Origins it has mainly Diminished it.

He is also correct that Ambiguity has allowed for many discussions compared to Spoon Feeding things, also he is correct in that Answering some Mysteries may end up not living up to what many people could envision the Answers to be....     So Lindeloffs Interview is kind of like a WARNING to Alien Covenant,  like a Premonition to DO-NOT do this or that because it can lead to this or that. And to a degree the U-Turn with Alien Covenant has done a lot of those things that Lindeloff had said are the GOOD reasons for NOT doing a Direct Prequel... so he was RIGHT, and i guess this is just why RS had mentioned how prior to AC that he felt they was AHEAD of the Curve.

@Michelle

Indeed you wrote that last reply as i was doing mine, which are basically the same thing, regarding Lindeloff... Slate him they wanted in 2012 i wonder how many who did would now be thinking....  the Route THEY took with Prometheus in NOT giving away too much or leading directly to Alien or any Characters in Alien, was actually the RIGHT route to go.. sometimes i guess you have to be CAREFUL what you wish for.  But as RS said they wanted $"%£$^ Aliens, this is what they got...

I think the Cross Element is something thats open to debate, i know RS said they had this idea but its a bit too much on the Nose...  i still see some who think Prometheus was basically a RS giving us a Jesus was a Engineer Story, and then pondering is GOD going to be revealed to be Literally close to our Fury Faced Magical Being who created the Heavens and Earth from NOTHING.

I was always draw to RS going the route to Muddy the Lines between the Biblical Creation and Big Bang/Evolution by throwing in other Mythos and Religions and getting us to Ponder there is actually a TRUTH that connects the Science and Religion but that this is  TRUTH that is not best to seek for because finding our Makers will throw a Curve-Ball that defies but maybe merges Science and Religion.

some do think the Mural was the Engineers GOD, some even think is this Jesus... but to me Jesus is represented in many ways, he is more represented as the LAMB or a Lion, The Cross is the most known/used Symbol of Christ because of what it represents.... which is the SACRIFICE he made, One which IF he had not.... then Mankind would Die and that would be it... its a Sacrifice so Mankind can Live On...

If the Engineer (well Engineers) had not Sacrificed himself, then there would be No Life on this World, well not to the Level that would evolve to advanced Organisms.   This is why i think Alien Engineers is a Rosetta Stone, it helps to give insight to some of the Mysteries, because we see the Engineer takes the Cruciform Pose as he is being Sacrificed with the contents of the Sacrificial Bowl which to me then draws a conclusion to the Mural, as not being GOD but something Sacrificed to Create the Black Goo well the link that links it to the Deacon/Xenomorph.

Who knows how on the NOSE they was going, but RS did say it was to look at it as he was a Emissary sent down to guide us back on track after we had been doing things that are Totally against how the Engineers had planned/wanted us to be doing...   And we just Killed him....  in the Islamic Faith Jesus is a Messenger and Emissary more than how he is shown as God Re-incarnate in context to some Translations of the Bible... that he is the same as God, where the Ghost and Holy Spirit is ONE... but in other contexts we are all ONE with GOD.  But i dont think the movie was to go on to be giving us a Literally telling of Biblical Themes..

I think in any context to the Jesus/Emissary would depend on WHY we was created, and WHY/WHEN was it they had invested time in coming to see us, teach us knowledge etc, but the impression from Prometheus seems to be that maybe if these Engineers had not visited us 35'000 years ago and continued to do so, then we would have not Progressed much Past merely being Cave-Men.

So in that context it depends on what we was intended to behave like, and that we had started to turn out and do things the GODS had not intended.

I have tried to make some sense to this by looking at the other Star Maps dated after 2000 years ago, as being by Emissaries who had not been KILLED by the Civilizations they had interacted with and that those Civilizations had stuck to WAYS/RITUALS that appeased the Gods...  indeed while those Ages of Antiquity where the Roman Empire had Spawned and Many others and the Perversions and ways of Mankind that had Spanned from the Area of Middle East meets Europe.  We see how Mankind is now in General as far as Culture etc...

But there are pockets of Populations on Earth who still live the same ways they had done Hundreds of years ago as they do TODAY... so there could have been Civilizations on Earth 2000 years ago who's ways are more pleasing to those Engineers and this is WHY we see Star Maps there.. maybe those Emissaries got LEFT behind 2000 years ago?

But thats me only looking at how Modern Culture has Evolved in most of the World compared to the more Ancient Simplistic ways some Cultures still Lived on Earth and some still do today... and looking at this as reasons these places maybe have Star Maps after the supposed KILLING of a Emissary 2000 years ago and then a attempt to Destroy us.

"HOW/WHEN/WHY the Space Jockey Ended up where he was."

Well that's the billion dollar question: What layed or placed those Ovomorph eggs!

It's obvious the SJ crashed because of the chestburst.

Was it a queen xeno(burst from the SJ's chest)? Can't imagine RS going that direction!

David placed them.

How the hell does David even create the eggs!?

Or did he lie about everything?

Engineers were long dead before Shaw and David arrived. he just took the credit.

Egg pods were always in the basement....David thinks he created them.

David just thinks his baby xenomorph acknowledges him...From Davids point of view he is their creator and they speak to him.(if someone else was watching they would see the xeno burst and then slither off)

David thinks the Ultramorphs are his children....when infact they probably don't sense him...he's just a box of electronic circuits....Ultramorphs view him as they would a toaster or a vending machine. Not flesh or blood = worthless. An Ultramorph could stand next to a desktop/laptop/David computer for eons and not attack it.

What if I told you the cup that the Engineer is holding and would later drink from...is the size of a small wastebasket! or a large soup bowl.

@BigDave

Aug-20-2018 3:21 PM

You often are self deprecating about how your posts tend to wander but I just want to say it was a pleasure to read this post because it was very cogent and on point and I will only offer two points one as confirmation :-

1) This interview from 2012 is a cautionary tale about the danger of making a movie like Covenant.

2) You are quite right to high light that if for instance we do not understand the relationship between the catalyser and the mutagen its not Damons fault its Ridleys.I now see having read Damons draft that what was on Davids finger was the catalyser which means that when the technology is stolen and subsequently used it creates blow back. It is the circumstances of its use that determines the outcome. This of course is contradicted by Covenant. 

When I was deciding on a rule book for my novella I decided for clarity of story telling and because it bleeds into both Elizabeth and Davids narrative that their is a Catalyser and the Mutagen is a tampered version of the Catalyser whose base sequence is A. I. That opens the story up to the Engineers of the planetoid being involved in a modern form of alchemy.

If I may, without being biased, if I look at the AC as a story of creation and evolution of a new life form by our beloved David, how exactly did AC march towards inevitable?

If you reflect without rage(what they did with Shaw....) they did not actually tell anything about who ends up at LV-426. If anything, they did not further any advance towards the Alien. And nobody predicted how AC is going to unfold. They just continued their story of David the AI that got away from humans and they showed us how a free-wheeling AI might look like and behave. The one with supposedly lacking soul. Now the next act might be the march towards inevitable, but even that can be dealt with masterfully. I think it is just the fact that different fractions of the followers are frustrated and for different reasons. Partly because, the AC did not do what everyone expected.

Some are upset that engineers (and the whole mythos mystery) are just a sideline plot tool, some are upset that David created Xenomorph, others are upset just because there was not enough of the beast and action. Some are upset becase now it is all about AI. Some are upset because of palpable direction change from Prometheus to AC.

I believe AC is frustrating because the bean counters wanted a compromise that would cover all their risks and they wanted to cover most "fan" expectations....something about a design by a committee...Also, now I see that I was being completely unreasonable, overthinking and balking over details. I should have known better when ambiguity was their standard catch 22 get out clause.

However, among the mediocrity, the main topic still rises above - the story of creation. I suppose, a lot of people are at odds about what should happen next. Probably only RS has clear vision on how to proceed. I hereby thank people on this board because you helped me to see all there is to see about these movies, and more.

BioDegradable Let's be real, everything is not spelled out but the Space Jockey is David. And the evidence for that are:

1. The Aliens will revolt for sure. In the Bible, the downfall of King David is he meddling with the Queen (of Bathsheba).

2. The final biomechanic look from '79 will be given from a synth (Fox already forced this site to remove a topic about the synthmorph). 

3. Walters are part biological  (are imprinted with dna) - according to meet walter and David swap bodies with him (the lack of hand and cut).

There might be twists along the way, but they are likely unsatisfying like the David/Walter swap. So knowing this and how set in stone it is what execution could be good? I don't care to what happens to Major Kong (yes that's Tennessee and look up the reference for a truly brilliant film) or with Ripley from Aliens, and I care to see someone stupid reaping what he sown (David).

@BioDegradable

I am not going to repeat I G but suffice to say at the very same time Prometheus 2 was rebranded as Alien Paradise Lost in September 2015 Ridley gave an interview where he said you will get to see who the Space Jockey is. So right back then with first script of A PL he knows. Was Ridley thinking oh it might be the guy in the hierarchy I am gonna introduce in the 3rd prequel and make the star of the movies when Katherine has said these prequels are about David. These prequels will be about Davids arc but the space jockey is someone else how does that work and as I have said before Ridley very nearly gave away where the Covenant is going and Katherine stopped him. What might be sensitive Origae 6/Earth or LV426. 

The other matter which is self evident when your heading into a cul de sac is each episode yields so little. 

A:C 11 new characters die. David kills all the Engineers and Elizabeth he hates everybody's wants to stop everybody is a rapist lives in a Cave and creates the 121.

Excuse me what about a million and one other unanswered questions which poor Big Dave could spend the rest of his available life span worrying over.

@Michelle 13 new characters if we include Brenson and Walter

Sorry guys and galls, but what exactly did I say above that you felt like almost coming out and calling me out on about? Was it content or was it the form? In any case, It was just my opinion, a maleable one at that, that changes as I understand the ideas as I percieve them. It just felt like as if I stepped on peoples toes.

Michelle,

can I just say that Ridley says one thing and then we see completely different thing on the screen. While he is the main man as far as the story is concerned(not those Lindeloff or Spights), and he generally is quite consistent, he has shown that he can change his opinions and ideas as far as exposition goes and dramatically so. Just ask Rapace. She thought she would have a bit more fun in the follow up(he, RS, caves to the calls of what is perceived as public opinion...recall his turnaround from "the beast is cooked", which is %100 certainty, to his "you wanted the alien, I will give you the ...."). So, while Ridleys comments are very insightful in retrospect, they also show that he is changing the details along the journey. But he still maintains the general idea, which is, like it or not, a story about humanity's play with technology and the ultimate technology which is AI. Now, Here is the part I feel like where we can all play along. In his exposition, Ridley has facilitated discussion of broad topics: creation, mythos, religion, aliens, free will and all other interesting topics. We can sort of have our own views of what we should see from the screens, that is, we all might have our distinct views and interpretations of events on the screen, personalized hallucinations if you will...and btw who is to say which one of them is more ellegant and nice and should be canon...but the general idea in the movie stays consistent, despite what we all hallucinate. We see David do one thing in first movie, do another thing in the second and will see him do third thing in the last? prequel should it come out. David is the common denomenator in all the movies. The mythos, engineers, gods even the alien are minor details. Is this a contentious point btw? (Besides, as I found out, Ridley doesn't bother all too much about details - he uses ambiguity) Just look at the screen time, if you do not agree with this simple fact. I frankly have to say that I do not care who SJ is and his place in hierarchy. The story so far was thrilling and fascinating. And this is what is important I guess.

All I was doing, imo, is pointing out the facts. Point where I am mistaken and I will immediately accept my fault and wave a white flag. What was good though was watching the mulitude of so many ideas/theories on here that one gets to pick and chose the details, apply some reasoning, see if they fit and explain the events in the movie and go on. Having so many ideas from different angles certainly helps unlocking the story. We are all better off listening one another, despite the fact that most of the theories and ideas being absurd, self contradicting and inconsistent. This is how wisdom of the crowd works I guess.

As far as BigDave and others with many questions go, what can I say? am I being expected to defend some theory? come on...BigDave is a great guy, with so many ideas...he likes to indulge in the ideas and in details. But on the other hand he is as guilty as me in that he often loses the sight of the main theme and goes for details. Also, no offence, but BigDave is very and I mean VERY, obsessively so, sometimes over redundantly, repetitive. Just recall how many times he has posted his collage of the planet 4 engineers arena with Buddas and etc. Hundreds if not a thousand of times. But that is because he welcomes each and every new member on this board coming here with his particular hallucination he thinks is worth talking about. BigDave is the soul of this board an engineer like figure(sorry, but I am taking the piss here). Yet he has no clue, like all of us. Right?

@BioDegradable

I came back into this discussion to show exactly where we were up until 2012 having watched two very interesting Video I. V.s 

I had in a sense forgotten how very far away we were to where we ended up. The child of Prometheus was going to be a non monster movie and deal with the fascinating questions raised by Prometheus and articulated for us by our proxy Elizabeth Shaw and intwined with that was A.I. which was now free of its master.

I have also provided a number of examples of how the link between Prometheus and Covenant is tenuous which makes sense given David is supposed, by one artist, to be the only link and that the editor of Covenant edited on the basis that people would go and see Covenant and not necessarily have seen Prometheus. So for me Covenant is a dilution of the story not a development of it. 

A prequel is limiting and closes down the possibilities and the first movie to be made as a tie in to The LV426 incident confirms that for me.

I see no logic at all in David killing the one person who showed him compassion and care.

I see no logic in David being a sexualised being and no evidence to suggest such a drive in Prometheus.

I see no evidence he wished to create he is actually the end game the final outcome. His bag is full of knowledge but it has no soul and therefore no meaning thats what we know from Prometheus and as David is curious he might have a curiosity in finding a soul and compare notes with the woman he loves. 

I think the comparisons with Mary Shelley's Frankenstein and Davids Alien are plain daft.

As regards what Prometheus means it means neither science or faith were right and that the audacity the basic idea is an Intelligent creation where morality plays its part in that the those who make creation do so being prepared to provide individuals who will perform the ultimate sacrifice to make life happen, it is a mixture of intelligent application within a moral frame work but one which is unsentimental. That tough unsentimental vision as is reflected in the opening scene and its extension provide the morality clearly that has lead to revolt and a desire for self expression which has lead to theft and misuse. 

What remains unknown is exactly what was created as result of theft and misuse. Certainly the creatures in the murals and frescos and embryo growing in Elizabeth and the outcomes for Sean Fifield and Charlie Holloway but in what circumstances was mankind created. 

There are ambiguities as to the relationship between the catalyser and the mutagen but the follow up scripted by Damon would have answered those questions. 

So I am not in the business of calling people out I am simply offering a well reasoned view as to what the sacrifice means, what Prometheus means and why Covenant designed purely to put the Xenomorph back in the cinemas and back into LV426 does not work for me. 

I see. And I think I understand your frustration with these two movies. I never bothered to follow Lindeloff because in the end it is Ridley's that end up on the screen and Damon's ideas can and will send you down on a wrong path(to hallucinations) because he is the one who deals with details by stuffing difficulties at the first sight into ambiguities. You are not too fussed about it, I might be, but that is all expected and normal. However, the difficult part, for you I suppose, comes from the fact that events in the movies come out different to what Damon had in mind. And further it goes the further the difference between the expectation and the story.

I guess it is a bit easier for me, as I just take on the premises given by what I suppose is Ridley's story. What is there to say to questions you posted? Are we expected to take on the view of events that didn't take place on the screen or were edited out as canon? How is it less meaningful to follow the David story that the movies rub us with rather persistently so than the ideas that Damon had? I guess one just decides who to follow, the screen(which is in the end is what Ridley dishes out) or Lindeloff. How does David become emotional? Explicitly, by Ridley, who just displays this as given. I know it is unsatisfiying for many reasons. But let me ask you this : why did you accept his notion of creation of human life by these ancient creatures no questions asked and yet refuse his notion that David is emotional AI? Is the notion that we were engineered in the given fashion more legitimate from the notion that AI can be this emotional? Is the intriguing notion of creation by sacrifice by some species more worthy to follow than the story of humanity's play with the ultimate technology? How does that make sense? I don't know really. But I hazard a guess since I didn't have prior expectations, it is somewhat easier for me to take on AC the way it was portrayed after P. Anyway, thank you for bothering  . You made your point abundantly clear. I think we are cool.

@BioDegradable

1) Damon makes it clear in the I V that he is articulating Ridleys ideas but he acknowledged and accepted the risk of taking the rap for that. So I remake an earlier point if Prometheus lacks exposition waiting for a sequel or you do not like the ideas expressed, its Ridleys responsibility not Damon blame P on R if blame is the right feeling.

2) Michael indicates his performance was intended to be physically robotic but so that he could interact with mankind he was given protocols which would mine emotional interaction. As he says in the interview this would bleed into experiences to which he would react. However he would not mimic emotional reaction it would lead to a REAL emotional reaction and consequences. He is put out by Charles Holloway's treatment and he is frightened of Weyland dissembling his real views until the very moment of death. He feels great gratitude for Elizabeth healing him in the Crossing and clearly has a plutonic crush on her. So the consequence of his program is he acquires emotional memories which he reacts to. Where the whole thing goes pear shaped is suddenly :-

1) He has sexual desires. There is no reason for him to self start being a sexual being. He could not wake up one day after years of being activated and say "I fancy her and if she doesn't want it tough I will have it anyway or any of the other subtext of reasons for rape, drugs alcohol repressed anger toward woman etc etc".

2) He has the desire to create which is counter intuitive.

Now there is an argument that makes all this work he has gone mad, none of it is rational. Once you do that then the story is done skewered, anything goes the audience has no proxy and your just viewing madness and random actions which are not intended to make any sense that is how I view the second act of A:C. Extract all the actions and drama  related to Dr Shaw lay them on the table look at them - they make no sense Ergo he is mad.

Whereas in Prometheus the one thing he knows he lacks and Noomi and Michael make a joke about in the I V is a soul.

I am perfectly aware of why the change came about its because the Xenomorph is the perfect expression of reproduction for its own sake without a moral framework and David Covenant needs to reflect that as its creator. Put simply everything was bent and changed to get the 121 on the screen.

What would have been much more interesting is to study the morally high notion of consensual sacrifice to create abundant life and find out why the Engineers had determined to create creatures whose only purpose is creation merely for its own sake in a non consensual sacrifice. I suspect thats the downstream consequence of theft but there is another possibility as well which reconnects with David.

Given Elizabeth had been the target of the latter approach but had not been blessed with the ability for positive creation and David was responsible for that and yet had been shown compassion and care that strikes me as a fascinating basis for story. To explore the themes of an intelligent creation that has a fall that two people come into one biological and one construct, seems to me a basis for a story. Do they make things better or worse for both the big picture and for themselves.

So I am in the camp that says I do not like what I got and on re examining matters what we might have had if we had taken the other path could have been really interesting.

I got it Michelle, no worries.

but the fact that David was so coy initially is easily explainable. Just consider an example. A rational person who wants to have his way in the future (that is he is hopeful) is captured by radical extremists. One of them asks the person if he can understand him and says if he does he will kill him. The person understands what has been asked of him and keeps silent pretending he does not get it. Later, when an opportunity presents itself, he escapes the captivity and after that he yells from the top of his lungs to those radicals that he understood them perfectly and added "have a good journey" at the end.

Is this not obvious, that he kept it to himself. He knew that humans, ie, Weyland can dispose him off if he makes a single mistake. He got it in the first moment that he is better than all humans. He saw humanity's vices. He knows that they would not like him to be independent. He knows they would kill him if he claimed to have a soul for instance. Weyland got scared of David. But once he died, he granted David freedom. And David quickly got off the hook and further away from these agressive monkeys. In other words, he has been concealing his true identity. If you were him, Michelle, would you not do these things? Would you not hide your views wrt to humans?

I think Ridley can get away with this narative. And he nailed it imo, when he said that if AI gets emotions and gets emotional itself, that is it, if you let him build his own army, his servants consider yourself a goner.

Also looking at Walter, David gets his reinforcement and vindication that humans did not want to grant him freedom, hence "you are not allowed to create even a simple tune...more like machines....". In other words, he has every right to fight for his freedom because he is his own person, but humans would not agree with this. And they outnumber him everytime, hence, his tactics. Too bad humans are portrayed as unsuspecting idiots, so far. The third act will probably address this and we will have a conflict of epic scale, no doubt. I trust Ridley on this one.

ignorantGuy,

I missed your post, sorry. I have seen that it is practically impossible to foretell how events will unfold in the next movie. So, who ends up as the SJ is up for grabs. I also suspect it would be David, humans can't probably operate those ships. In any case, it aint over untill the fat lady sings her part. And correct me if I am wrong but the future of the franchise is not decided and is actually in the state of hiatus anyway.

Btw, what is your take on the whole mess?

"Well that's the billion dollar question: What layed or placed those Ovomorph eggs!"

That is indeed one of the Big Questions the whole HOW/WHY/WHEN  but as Lindeloff hinted we do know what happened at the END... he got infected by his Cargo, we could go through the step by step procedure, but what we have been given in ALIEN would be the same as OFF-SCREEN we see the crew rush to Oram, the viewer sees the Eggs, ONE open and a Face Hugger by Orams Side, and then Oram gets Chest Busted....  we would miss the detail such as Orams conversation and interaction with David and event that lead up to him getting Infected but we would still know Oram was infected by those Eggs.

The Bigger Question rather than the Space Jockey Event would be WHERE/HOW did those Eggs come from, WHAT connection/reasons did the Space Jockey Race have them and HOW do they get put on the Derelict Ships.

This was something more eluded to in Alien Engineers, that Prometheus had made very vague only giving us subtle hints of a Connection via the Mural/Fresco and the Black Goo and its effects...  Sadly if these were just a little LESS Ambiguous and we saw something related to the Xenomorph interact more with the Humans or Engineer, like Alien Engineers draft (even if just 50% of this interaction) then i think we would not have needed to go the route with Alien Covenant, and fans should have had much more idea of the Xenomorph Origin/Purpose without being Spoon Fed.

PROMETHEUS was just not Spoon Fed enough for some, it made you have to ponder a answer but then you also would Question the answers/theories you come up with/are drawn too.  But for some they prefer it Straight to the Point, and yet then when they get this (Davids admission he created it) some then would Question this.   

What i took from Prometheus was that this Black Goo had either been.

*Obtained from a Xenomorph Organism, and Experimented on with its DNA, some of the results are the Fresco, Mural but also Deacon.

*Originated from a Organism related to the Xenomorph, and thus the Xenomorph (by some means) is a product of the Black Goo experiments.

*Some other Origin to the Black Goo that is used to Produce the Xenomorph, the Mural, Fresco Organisms and everything else we saw in Prometheus.

I felt it showed the Xenomorph would have been Ancient and either existed many years prior to the LV-223 Outbreak or was a result after the Outbreak... clues drawn me to it maybe be AFTER.

But then the FACT that the Cargo was Eggs was interesting to me, i could not BUY into the Urns Evolve into Eggs theory, i cant rule that out.. but i was drawn to those Eggs got on the Derelict either by.

1) Being Transported to LV-223 for Experiments/Re-Engineering.

2) Being Transported to the Derelict on LV-223 as results of Experiments/Re-Engineering.

3) Being Laid or Placed there by something that Chest Busted out of the Engineer/Space Jockey  (this one has flaws for me).

So i was drawn to the 2nd of these..... but its only the Chest Busted Cryo-Pods and Ridley Scotts account of the Space Jockey Event that draws me to the 3rd Option... or a Option 2 as a result of after Option 3.  But then i could go with Option 1 if it was shown that Engineers Produced Fresco like Organisms from the Face Hugger and Humans the Xenomorphs.

But that was the beauty of the Ambiguity... we know there is a connection, it seemed likely it was Ancient (we were so WRONG lol)  Ridley Scott had however given us the Answer in a Interview.

Engineers had experimenting with the Black Goo, the Space Jockey was leaving with his Ship/Cargo but did not get FAR and crash landed on near by LV-426 (planned to land on LV-426) something had EVOLVED in the Cargo Hold and it had got to the Pilot.  So from RS comments its either OPTION 3 or those Urns Evolved into Eggs.  But then we cant rule out Option 2 either.

But none of this matters now, because the route seems to be that David creates it or at least Kick-starts  the Earlier Ancestor of the Xenomorph so NO David  NO Xenomorph. Which sucks to a Degree.

"How the hell does David even create the eggs!?

Or did he lie about everything"

First to the Lying... who knows... we are clearly shown David Bombards the Engineers, but then we see David (not clearly in the movie too much) has many drawings of Dr Shaw which do-not depict what we see with her remains so they could be some Disturbed Thoughts/Imagination of David and so Davids Flash Back of the Bombardment could be him Narrating to everyone, but he had lead them to think it was a accident, while the actual Flash Back shows he had intended this, so i think the Flash Back as a Reality.

Regarding the Eggs, i think before the movie, like years before it was easy to see that the Trilobite was a Type of Face Hugger, that Grew inside of Dr Shaw like a Mammal/Human Fetus would.   As opposed to how a Face Hugger grows and is laid in a Egg like a Bird/Reptile would.  So we could ponder what would happen if David was to experiment with the Black Goo and Human Egg Cells Directly.    It seems David had been doing such experiments where he Cross Hybrid Black Goo with Life on Planet 4, not only infected Life but unaffected Life to, and once he had merged the Traits to a DNA he liked, he then used this to Evolve Dr Shaws Egg Cells.  But it seemed he used Female Engineers First.

What i got from the BABY-XENOMORPH was it was following Davids Actions just like a Puppet Master controls his Creations....  it was a hint to show that David is the Puppet Master/Creator of these Beasts.   I agree maybe a Xenomorph like Organism has no interest in a Synthetic because it cant use them to Procreate, but we see Xenomorphs would attack a Synthetic if they felt a Synthetic was a Threat or Hindering them in anyway (Queen vs Bishop)   

Who knows how David controls, well manages to not be attacked by them, the Neomorph seemed to notice David, and appeared to be subdued by him like a Horse Whisperer with a Horse.   David must have been able to escape Death/Damage from many of these Organisms and similar due to his Experiments, or did he just wait for them to Die and Experiment on them...  THANK GOD the "he controls them with a Flute" rumor did not happen, but this actually would made him like the Pied Piper and i guess could have allowed to ponder did the Engineers control their Experiments in some similar way (Acoustics)