Prometheus : Theodicy

 Sounds very interesting. Thanks for the share!

Good luck Michelle, but the crew of the Covenant consisted of 7 pairs and 1 roybot, and only 2 survive for sure (Major Kong and the lady with bad wig), and the roybot is missing in action (hopefully is also dead).

@dk My Pleasure.

@ignorantGuy Quite Right thanks it should read cast not crew 7 couples David and Walter = 16 with three going somewhere and Walter(ish) missing in action. 

Michelle Johnston In a friendly dispute over semantics, that is not 100% true as you forgot that Guy from Memento (pun intended). It is also true that he is not credited and is a casualty of an other movie...

ignorantGuy

Love it. I am actually thinking I should have said "they all die well mostly." Muther is still with us but they lost 47 colonists and 16 second generation embryos.

The most interesting slip is freudian but then she didn't. She went some place beautiful.  

Michelle Johnston That is what you choose to believe... But what the hell means second generation in that case? Because they will be born in the colony will they be humanity 2.0 ? Or are they clones?

The thirteen deaths require narrative which yields one answer, David is mad and has fashioned the Xenomorph. 

A lot of those deaths in AC were executed from the Neomorph independent of David. AC deaths deserve individual narratives but seemed pretty random in the movie if I understand your point.

dk Let's play the semantics game. With exception of Mr expensive cameo, all died because of David as they were lured there by his signal. But let's do some counting. 1 dies burned, 4 are killed by the black monster, 1 is killed by David, 1 blows her self up. So there 6 people directly killed by the white monster, which is the minority, therefore not even a lot.

ignorantGuy Good point. I would correct myself in stating that the Neomorph kills were not directly guided by David- perhaps a happy accident since he despised people at any rate. At best he killed by proxy since they spawned from the black goo bombs.

However, the Neomorph seemed to recognize David as some sort of organism to not attack as did the xenomorph.

This could be a good thing. As long as it is tied to the Xenos in some way or at least have some monsters, Engineers, and have good human characters then I will be interested in reading it. I don't think that it will be worse than Covenant.

I will answer some of the points raised because I do not want to waste peoples time nor have something which is a passion given a hard time simply because it does not fit people view of what stories should look like which share DNA with ALIEN.

Prometheus

Peter Weyland is seeking eternal life by journeying to meet our makers.

Elizabeth Shaw is in search of her creators.

They arrive on one of the moons of Calpamos.

Weyland discovers there is nothing and dies.

Elizabeth discovers they created us why did they want to destroy us and the noble pilots stop the Engineer from completing what was gonna happen 2,000 years ago.

David a trophy robot feared by mankind watches on in bemusement and with a degree of mischievousness whilst responding to the demands of Weyland.

No body does anything exceptionally stupid in my version other than being subject to a more general hubris of thinking turning up here will get them what they want. Before they land they know there is no life. By the time Elizabeth has had a Caesarean it is obvious this place is bad form but Weyland is gonna die (Vickers) anyway so he carries on. Everything that happens in Prometheus is down to Weyland thats the advantage of writing the story through the eyes of his proxy. It makes the good guys and their reaction stronger and more reactive and plausible.  

In the first part you will discover the link between the Xenomorph and the Pyramids. 

That the mutagen is deadly through its effects on Dr Holloway and Elizabeth Shaw.

Regained

In the second part you will discover :-

1) The destination and purpose of the lone Juggernaut whose pilot is an Engineer.

2) The meaning of the introductory scene in Prometheus.

3) The relationship between the ingested catalyser at the front end of Prometheus and the mutagen on Davids finger, its origins and applications. As Damon said when he speculated on the direction of Prometheus 2 there were no monsters in the follow up and neither are there in my vision.

4) The meaning of the incident 2,000 years ago on the Calpamos moon.

My point about 13 deaths is simple. We spend an hour getting to know these people at a fairly superficial level and then another hour seeing them all killed and we learn nothing  other than David nuked the place its causing a lot of pathogenic outcomes and he has created the Xenomorph which I am not interested in and monster centric people disapprove of.

If you are going to grow a story film by film in a genuinely symphonic way you have to have the audacity to stop making the same movie over and over again with different or adjusted monsters.

My story doesn't spend any time getting to know characters because we know them already we can then watch how they respond to different situations and learn more about the truth of the mythos we have come into. Their challenges are a mixture of each other, themselves and what they discover and how to respond to it. Like Prometheus the stakes are huge but they are existential and do not involve breaking bones and stuff emerging from bodies (mostly).    

A genuine sequel provides the opportunity to sit down and think who is this person, what would they do, how would they react to each other and because many questions were left unanswered what does that mean. However as I say elsewhere I am not constrained as the film makers are to meet certain franchise expectations. 

If you like think Ripley/Clemens in the assembly cut just being real not a relationship and then it goes all pear shared in that regard because Clemens dies and we have to chase the beast around the building. That does not happen in my story. 

Michelle Johnston this sounds like a fascinating concept to attempt, and I would love to read it!!

@IRaptus

Super. I will PM any one who responds to the thread with interest. Your use of the word concept is very encouraging.

The point about Prometheus is it was an ideas movie within the same Universe as ALIEN. The concept was the proposition of an Engineered creation and the story was how it went wrong and one of the side effects of that wrongness is the creature.

One thing I am considering at the moment is the cycle itself went wrong. It was designed to do A but if allowed would have got away and done B and B is merely hinted at by Kanes's child or is that Cain's child. One of the lovely design mysteries of the creature is it could not procreate in the theatrical version of ALIEN. (Cocoons and Queens not withstanding). So it could itself be punishment. Its that kind of ideas approach that I am pondering as I plan to make a direct link with the creature and the Pyramids. If it cannot procreate then it might have a thematic link with David. Come to that Elizabeth cannot create so all three feed back into a creation mythos and whether sub creation is a sin oh and what is sin in an Engineered creation.

There is also something else which is nice about extending a story naturally. It can have a morning after feel where everyone has a chance to think over and deal with some of their earlier behaviour feeding back into the original events.     

I hope there are some scary parts in the story.  To me, a part of being within the ALIEN franchise is to induce some fear into people.  Of course, in a book format, it is difficult.  I guess in a book, the form of fear takes on the disguise of surprise or shock.

Sadly I can't offer advice on that for the Alien franchise since the only movie novel I have read was Alien: Covenant.  The problem with this is that I didn't find Alien: Covenant scary at all in theaters.  It had some intense moments, but nothing that made me want to look away, made me jump, or even gave me the feeling that I didn't want to be a part of the plot anymore because it is scary.

Every other ALIEN movie had at least one memorable scene that I have found scary in my adult age.  If I could just forget exactly what happens, I'm sure I would still find those scenes scary.  Of course when I saw the movies when I was a child, the movies were more terrifying.  

Cool!

I'd love to read this Michelle.

I like big ideas and Regained seems packed with them.

I had intended to give things a break until I was about to launch both elements. I have also realised people can approach you on Wordpress and you have no idea who they are. At this stage I think its much better to carry on finish the entire project and then offer it personally to those who ask in whatever format they prefer, for now I will need to have some sense of who the person joining in is, should they wish to do so.  

@I Moon Girl

Most of those who have read it and been read to had no idea where it was going so it was a shock to end up "There". But thats an intellectual shock not frightened to bits shock. I say this in the forward but I have tried to place the story in a landscape which feels normal but in terms of whats going on is not. So they aren't somewhere which has suddenly gone dead (Aliens) and come up against terror.  

For me there are two terrifying elements to Prometheus :-

1) That creation requires sacrifice. Its not cuddly and thoughtful. Its tough and unsentimental. 

2) The invasion of Elizabeth's womb. 

@MonsterZero

Again its the ideas thing. Just two to ponder. 

If the Calpamos Moon represents Paradise Lost (Pietro Scalia) then what does Paradise look like, is there such a thing and from whose point of view. If we went there would we recognise it as such. Clearly the Engineers were not happy with it and something happened.

Kane stuck his head over the Ovoid and out pops a creature whilst they are having a late brunch. It may or may not have life in it as an icon which drives a franchise but where was the Engineer Craft going with its cargo approximately 2,000 years ago (Prometheus 2012 version) and what was the intended target of the Ovoids. It is extremely unlikely that Kane was the intended host. Is this relevant. Whom might the intended host have been and if that is relevant what is the creature.     

"At this stage I think its much better to carry on finish the entire project"

Okay. 

"what does Paradise look like.."

Awesome...I know what my paradise would look like...But an Engineers??

Kane and the Ovoid.

Where did the Ovoids come from!? Did the creature burst from the Space Jockey lay them? Or are they typical Engineer traps? Or?   ?

@MonsterZero

Entire project 

Today I was thinking about some of the ideas in "Regained" which can be back filled into Prometheus. Not contradictory but they were off screen as it were. So I actually am coming round to the view it would be much more fun to read the entire "Theodicy" in one go anyway.

Also there is some stuff in "Regained" which is connected to A L I E N and so if the craft in that film came from the Pyramids it makes sense to make that connection whilst you are in them in Prometheus hinting at what you find out later.

It also address's something which I think is a fair criticism where does the creature fit into whats gone on in the Pyramids. Maybe it doesn't but why not? or maybe it does in which case make it clear. Indeed the only serious narrative changes rather than embellishments are about clearing up all those issues before we wake our friend. The real monster of the book is I am sure going to turn out to be Weyland.

What is Paradise and from whose point of view. Mankind tends to look at this from a pre Galileo point of view it all revolves around us and our perception. In some ways Elizabeths view of where her father has gone "some place beautiful" might imply that Paradise/Heaven is restricted just to mankind is it?

Elizabeth in that beautiful scene left out of Prometheus talks about the story she was told as a child of the Sun being lonely so we were created. She is also inspirational on the matter of we are not alone. However that presupposes her faith up until that point is based on the notion there is one God for one people. She has rocked up and found her creators are not Gods at all so now she wants to know who made them surely they are God? She is remodelling God as she goes on. Certainly by the time she leaves the Calpamos Moon she is not looking for Paradise but the Engineers Home world "Where they came from." She is exhausted grieving so probably needs time to think that somehow Paradise "where we go when we die" has gone a.wo.l. Surely that comes back into her mind? 

I like your openness on the Ovoids. Its relatively easy to come up with how where they created. There are many hints in Prometheus. Elizabeth's experience  is a pretty good bet as to some of it. 

However I like your point about what are they for. The assumption in the movies seems to be Mankind, Dogs, Ox. They could be for some thing really significant. Unlike the mutagen the cycle is very ritualistic that might be important.  

 "came from the Pyramids"     

Yes!  I'd love to get a William Hope Hodgson "The Night Land" spin.

John C Wright does a great job updating this:

https://www.amazon.com/Awake-Night-Land-John-Wright-ebook/dp/B00JM98V60

Now to get someone to 'update' the A L I E N story ......H.P. Lovecraft "At The Mountains of Madness" style. Neutral science fiction....I'd LOVE to have a version of Prometheus written by Lovecraft....Even have a Alien:Covenant version...with less 'Bro-dude millennials' crewing the spacecraft.

I notice when people down the years have mentioned the original "All About Everything" nature of Prometheus intent, as opposed to the "shoot um up" Aliens sub genre they refer to the Prometheus elements as being "Lovecraftian."

Given this statement from Lovecraft "To me there is nothing but puerility in a tale in which the human form—and the local human passions and conditions and standards—are depicted as native to other worlds or other universes." I am not inclined to agree. 

It seems to me the original proposition of Prometheus is we go out there and end up looking in the mirror. "They are us we are them." 

Jon Spaihts very first "seeds", excuse the pun, where about explaining us from a very familiar view point using a technique that moves between Darwinism and Creationism. It is within an existing conversation and was neatly summarised in the conflict of Elizabeth science and faith.  

Lovecraft seemed to me to jump right out of that and is somewhere else, certainly stylistically.

I am not suggesting Lovecraft isn't good or great I am simply saying my take on what Prometheus was going to do is quite different. I think, and this will come as no surprise, its something Damon Lindelof said. Ridley is very interested in Bladerunner (ish) themes. So Prometheus was going to some place where the mechanics of life and creation are not quite what we think but the humanoid was the reference point from which you look out. 2049 moves into that territory.    

Mind you the theme of Mountains of Madness is hinted at by Charlie. 

So some of this is about style and some about content. Can you say a horrific thing within a very normal humanoid setting. Do you go out to some place that looks and feels very odd to say odd things or do you go some place normal and feels normal to say odd things. The danger with the latter is it feels parochial - a bit like Star Wars. 

One idea of Love crafts I do like is that in the future we recognise our forebears the pre civilised ones had more real insight into the truth and in someways thats what the Cave Paintings are on about. That we are unlearning rather than re learning.  

Michelle Johnston said, "2) The invasion of Elizabeth's womb."

Yes, that idea and the scenes which expressed that idea were scary.

One part that I thought was scary in Prometheus was when the blue holograms started running towards the explorers and David just appeared to be in love with them with the wind blowing through his hair.  In my thoughts I was thinking, "Just get out!  JUST.GET.OUT!"  Of course, what made that scene scary for me was the whole build up to that point.  There's not much to that scene but the build up and David's insanity, but which really makes that scene a scary scene.

"Cave Paintings are on about"

I'd really like to have closure on the cave paintings:

Why would the Engineers share their pathogen producing planet/system with Earthlings/cave people?!

"Yes Earthlings, This is where our deathcults are located...drop by when you achieve space travel! 50% off your 1st Urn!" 

Or

"Yes Earthlings, this is the location of our beautiful homeworld, very much like your own.....drop by when you achieve space travel! Break bread with us!" 

I tend to believe the SpaceJockey and Lv426 had something to do with the destruction/deforestation of LV223

2100 years ago...LV223 nice place.

100 years later...war...Space Jockey crashes on LV426..LV223 surface is wiped clean, only good for toxic waste and weapon testing.

Where's BigDave he's great at this ?!

@MonsterZero

Cave Paintings 

This will be my final post for some time as I want to focus on preparing to write the first part of the story from the 25th to 27th December.

My point about the Cave Paintings was not about what they are intended to convey, which I will answer, but the notion that Ancient Man was capable of articulating a complex idea with seemingly limited materials whereas Modern Man plain misunderstood it. The reason is about Hubris.

Although the Isle of Skye relief naturally reflects the values of articulation of 35,000 ago as do the other more recent pictograms reflect their contemporaneous iconography what is extra ordinary is the capacity to understand such complex information which suggest early man had a clearer view than later man. He had greater clarity and in the end wisdom. 

Elizabeth a product of a particularly evolved religious faith immediately jumped to the conclusion it was an invitation.

Peter Weyland even more absurdly went along with the notion against his better judgement, which was reflected in Meredith and Davids view both of whom according to Damon thought the mission was utter folly. People believing want they want to believe. 

The viewer was told during the movie what the relationship between the Engineers and Mankind was and Damon reinforced it decisively in his Script Writers commentary.

Given the relationship between the Engineers and Mankind it was neither an invitation or a warning it was simply a recording. Sometimes a Cigar is just Cigar.

As a piece of story telling at the front end of the movie it is a perfectly executed beat and Logan and Noomi nail the sense of wonder and excitement we want to crack on with them as she sheds a tear and takes his hand. 

Ironically the film is telling us do not project or overthink things. If you do train wrecks will occur a point made by Logan in the recent interview I shared, which perfectly mirrors the way modern audiences over think somethings and miss others. 

Michelle Johnston

However many civilizations through-out history recorded encountering that cigar, so for early civilizations that seemed important. The chain smoker is a lost memory and what should you do about it? Of course trying to cheat death leads to disasters but going through even though you consider it foolish also leads to the same place (as you hire people like Fifield and Milburn). Yet this foolish move give David his freedom (yet why say this was foolish if you had a plan to escape).

So my conundrum is what is what to do in this situation. 

Well i really look forwards to your ideas/interpretations of Prometheus and where to go NEXT.... the movie left a lot of ambiguity and a large BOLD Plot, which leaves a large number of ways to interpret, and this is the GREAT thing about Prometheus, its something Lindeloff is quite proud of, the discussion and debate that comes from how the Movie was portrayed.

The Problem is choosing which Path/Answers to go, and as a anyone working on any Sequel would find, its hard to then choose which path, and wonder how many of the Fans would be pleased with this path.... Why it is such a Shame that Ridley Scott did not get to just Proceed with what he wanted and if it does not please every fan, so be it as you cant please them all.

So with your interpretation it would be interesting, as you are not tied down with having to think "WHAT" the Fans want, but are free to explore HOW you interpret things and how you would explore them...  I am really intrigued to reading your Story and i cant wait until its release.

"The point about Prometheus is it was an ideas movie within the same Universe as ALIEN. The concept was the proposition of an Engineered creation and the story was how it went wrong and one of the side effects of that wrongness is the creature."

Indeed i think that is one of the Big Aspects of the Franchise, which is What Purpose was the Creation of Humanity and other Life, and then HOW/WHEN/WHY did those Experiments on LV-223 Fit into this... This was one Mystery that May/May Not had been covered in a sequel. But certainly to a degree we needed the reasons for Creation to be explained, and then shown what kind of Hubris comes from this.

"whether sub creation is a sin oh and what is sin in an Engineered creation."

Indeed a continuation of the first comment, it would be interesting to see what causes a Sin/Fall.  And how much is this connected to Biblical/Paradise Lost Sin/Fall and indeed the Prometheus one.. is Creation a Sin?  or is interfering with the Purpose of Creation so that it behaves/performs and has a different outlook that Permitted/Intended the Sin/Fall.

"Elizabeth in that beautiful scene left out of Prometheus talks about the story she was told as a child of the Sun being lonely so we were created. She is also inspirational on the matter of we are not alone"

Again and the rest of this Paragraph you wrote are all very interesting, to ponder WHY  would a God Create Life is important and how close is this to WHY would a Human Create Life (Weyland) i hate to think the explanation is as Holloway says to David "because we could" and also what is of interest with the Dr Shaw Scene is how her Father says those African Villages dont need his help as their God is Different.  "based on the notion there is one God for one people" certainly interesting to explore HOW/WHY we ended up with different interpretations of Gods, and then finding out the TRUE purpose and Hierarchy of the Gods.

"However I like your point about what are they for. The assumption in the movies seems to be Mankind, Dogs, Ox. They could be for some thing really significant. Unlike the mutagen the cycle is very ritualistic that might be important. "

I think it could be interesting to explore this, because before we got the whole GODS aspect/plot.  We did have some unused elements from STARBEAST which was the Ritualistic Procreation of a Alien Race who required Sacrifice, and also HR Giger's Concepts, which showed that these Bald Humanoids, were Sacrificing their own kind to allow for the Procreation of such a Horrific Beast.  So its interesting to ponder what SYMBIOSIS this implied.

Finally the Concept of Paradise, this is interesting to explore what way this would have been/could have been explored in context to the Franchise, there are many views of what Paradise is... is it HEAVEN were we go when we Die?  Not Really perhaps... because the Concept of Heaven is NOT where we all go... its only where those deemed Worthy Go, be it those who keep to the Rules/Appease their Gods, those who have done a Good Deed/Died in Glorious Battle..  a Common theme of Paradise is it is a PLACE that only a Specific Proportion of Persons can go to.  Its interesting to see how this would be explored, it does not have to be shown as indeed a Literal Spiritual Realm of the Dead... but i do think that a Specific place that only a selection of those deemed Worthy are allowed and i guess its to ponder WHO and WHY

The other Paradise is the Cradle of Creation, a Place where GOD/Gods had Created a Paradise for their Creation (Mankind) to Dwell and be watched over, that they end up being kicked out of after Disobedience.  I think exploring this and a Paradise that is intended for only the Worthy/Chosen in context to how this fits with the PLOT of the Engineers and Creation is something that is interesting to Exlplore.

All of these things i have replied to, in context to some of your comments are things we maybe could have been shown HAD they been allowed to go where PROMETHEUS was heading.

And i am truly looking forwards to your interpretations and take on such a subject, as i know how Passionate you are and how much Thought goes into your interpretations that i cant wait to Read your work ;)

"Why would the Engineers share their pathogen producing planet/system with Earthlings/cave people?!"

I think this is a interesting Question, one which i look forwards to Michelle's interpretation.  I dont really intend to give to much towards what i felt about it, so as to no De-Rail this Thread.

We see with Prometheus that they felt (well Dr Shaw did) that it was a invitation, but latter she realizes and says that we were WRONG.  There are groups who feel it was a INVITATION and others who feel it was a TRAP

I feel it was NEITHER...  i think we have to look at our Engineers as a Race who Created us and had visited us, but they DID-NOT reveal all their Knowledge and Secrets to us.  Some Knowledge was just not intended for us, as we are close to THEM.. it is their Advanced Knowledge that makes them Superior.  The Fear of what this Knowledge would do if it Falls into the Wrong Hands is certainly Good Reason for those beings to Eradicate us so that we NEVER reach the Stars.

So its not a Invitation because i think those beings back then had never intended us to leave this place of our Free-Will.  We are on this ROCK Light Years from their Home-world.   If you are stranded on a Island and you can not swim far and have no idea how to build a boat, then you can not arrive at other Lands. Those who Stranded you there have no Concerns or Worries that you could ever leave this place... because in Hubris they feel you would never Self-Learn the Knowledge and Tools to be able to leave that Island.

I think Forbidden Knowledge that plays the Key Role. And Hubris.. WHOM and to WHAT end did those Engineers Teach Mankind, how much had we been taught? was it too much, or as a Creation in their image is it such a Hubris to think without their interaction we would just and always be CAVE-MEN?  But as we are similar to them, there is that Potential to Evolve to what we are now, was it a case if just that LITTLE bit of Knowledge passed, had started the Ball Rolling?

I think LV-223 was a Sandbox, a Safe-place to Create/Evolve Life away from their Home-world and to then introduce to various worlds when they are pleased with the Results.   A Nursery, a Greenhouse if you would.

so the STAR-MAPS where saying "This is where we Created you" its not a invitation, its not the location of where they (Engineers) came from and Certainly not the Location of a Secret Bio-Weapons Death Camp...

But at some point the place indeed Turned into such a Place, the Question is WHEN/HOW/WHY.  And i think it is interesting to wonder HOW and IF Michelle's work will answer this.

"so the STAR-MAPS where saying "This is where we Created you" its not a invitation, its not the location of where they (Engineers) came from and Certainly not the Location of a Secret Bio-Weapons Death Camp..."

"And i think it is interesting to wonder HOW and IF Michelle's work will answer this..."

That works for me! Thanks.

No more derailing.....

Go Michelle!

Excellent direction Michelle Johnston. Please include me on your list of those requesting to read your work.

@ignorantGuy

I understand what you are saying, for me examining motive is not about judgement it is about getting to know your characters better and understanding their frailties and respecting them as flawed human beings why they do things. Thats why I refer to the Ripley/Clemens exchange, for once Ripley isn't just smashing her way through the narrative. But to my point now that I am looking really hard at all the characters that are "important to the narrative" in Prometheus I actually can see their reasoning ever more clearly. Weyland was always going to make David and try and beat the rules. But once you have that front and centre then Vickers reaction to her father needs more clarity. If she wasn't on board making decisions it would not be important but she is and she burns a man to death that cannot be ignored anymore than Elizabeth healing David.  

The more we can get to know him the more we get to know ourselves and then work out why are we like we are. For me the three characters that I have really enjoyed really getting to know are Charlie, Vickers and one I am coming on to the Engineer who has survived. So I am not questioning and stopping the narrative because I think their stupid I am showing the reader more about what they are and why they do these things so I might stand a chance in communicating more emotional weight rather than the first book being the book of the film. If I could make some of it the film of the book that would be humbling and wonderful         

@BigDave

Reading your responses is encouraging because particularly given your way of looking at this franchise I want to make two things clear:-

1) I have taken a view about what we are seeing and hearing and then worked from there. Thats not the bit I want to discuss when people have read the books. We have discussed those things endlessly. Though in my research I find it interesting that Damon can be asked a question and he responds by saying if you do not know the answer to that we must have failed because its in the movie. But nevertheless those arguments for me do not have legs. My Glossary answers all those types of issues and whereas I expected a lot of comments about those decisions I have had none yet. There have been lots of comments but not about I don't think its a whatever. My choices must at worse be unexceptionable.     

2) I have not written Regained on the basis that this where Ridley and Damon view they were going. (They had no story just a destination and what it would look like). Instead I have said they created a mythos where creation is neither Darwin or Creationism and its tough and unsentimental what would it look like and what might go wrong and what possible good or bad is there in a believer and a robot wandering around in this. 

 @Michelle teacher what did i do wrong?