Prometheus : Theodicy

Michelle Johnston said, "2) The invasion of Elizabeth's womb."

Yes, that idea and the scenes which expressed that idea were scary.

One part that I thought was scary in Prometheus was when the blue holograms started running towards the explorers and David just appeared to be in love with them with the wind blowing through his hair.  In my thoughts I was thinking, "Just get out!  JUST.GET.OUT!"  Of course, what made that scene scary for me was the whole build up to that point.  There's not much to that scene but the build up and David's insanity, but which really makes that scene a scary scene.

"Cave Paintings are on about"

I'd really like to have closure on the cave paintings:

Why would the Engineers share their pathogen producing planet/system with Earthlings/cave people?!

"Yes Earthlings, This is where our deathcults are located...drop by when you achieve space travel! 50% off your 1st Urn!" 

Or

"Yes Earthlings, this is the location of our beautiful homeworld, very much like your own.....drop by when you achieve space travel! Break bread with us!" 

I tend to believe the SpaceJockey and Lv426 had something to do with the destruction/deforestation of LV223

2100 years ago...LV223 nice place.

100 years later...war...Space Jockey crashes on LV426..LV223 surface is wiped clean, only good for toxic waste and weapon testing.

Where's BigDave he's great at this ?!

@MonsterZero

Cave Paintings 

This will be my final post for some time as I want to focus on preparing to write the first part of the story from the 25th to 27th December.

My point about the Cave Paintings was not about what they are intended to convey, which I will answer, but the notion that Ancient Man was capable of articulating a complex idea with seemingly limited materials whereas Modern Man plain misunderstood it. The reason is about Hubris.

Although the Isle of Skye relief naturally reflects the values of articulation of 35,000 ago as do the other more recent pictograms reflect their contemporaneous iconography what is extra ordinary is the capacity to understand such complex information which suggest early man had a clearer view than later man. He had greater clarity and in the end wisdom. 

Elizabeth a product of a particularly evolved religious faith immediately jumped to the conclusion it was an invitation.

Peter Weyland even more absurdly went along with the notion against his better judgement, which was reflected in Meredith and Davids view both of whom according to Damon thought the mission was utter folly. People believing want they want to believe. 

The viewer was told during the movie what the relationship between the Engineers and Mankind was and Damon reinforced it decisively in his Script Writers commentary.

Given the relationship between the Engineers and Mankind it was neither an invitation or a warning it was simply a recording. Sometimes a Cigar is just Cigar.

As a piece of story telling at the front end of the movie it is a perfectly executed beat and Logan and Noomi nail the sense of wonder and excitement we want to crack on with them as she sheds a tear and takes his hand. 

Ironically the film is telling us do not project or overthink things. If you do train wrecks will occur a point made by Logan in the recent interview I shared, which perfectly mirrors the way modern audiences over think somethings and miss others. 

Michelle Johnston

However many civilizations through-out history recorded encountering that cigar, so for early civilizations that seemed important. The chain smoker is a lost memory and what should you do about it? Of course trying to cheat death leads to disasters but going through even though you consider it foolish also leads to the same place (as you hire people like Fifield and Milburn). Yet this foolish move give David his freedom (yet why say this was foolish if you had a plan to escape).

So my conundrum is what is what to do in this situation. 

Well i really look forwards to your ideas/interpretations of Prometheus and where to go NEXT.... the movie left a lot of ambiguity and a large BOLD Plot, which leaves a large number of ways to interpret, and this is the GREAT thing about Prometheus, its something Lindeloff is quite proud of, the discussion and debate that comes from how the Movie was portrayed.

The Problem is choosing which Path/Answers to go, and as a anyone working on any Sequel would find, its hard to then choose which path, and wonder how many of the Fans would be pleased with this path.... Why it is such a Shame that Ridley Scott did not get to just Proceed with what he wanted and if it does not please every fan, so be it as you cant please them all.

So with your interpretation it would be interesting, as you are not tied down with having to think "WHAT" the Fans want, but are free to explore HOW you interpret things and how you would explore them...  I am really intrigued to reading your Story and i cant wait until its release.

"The point about Prometheus is it was an ideas movie within the same Universe as ALIEN. The concept was the proposition of an Engineered creation and the story was how it went wrong and one of the side effects of that wrongness is the creature."

Indeed i think that is one of the Big Aspects of the Franchise, which is What Purpose was the Creation of Humanity and other Life, and then HOW/WHEN/WHY did those Experiments on LV-223 Fit into this... This was one Mystery that May/May Not had been covered in a sequel. But certainly to a degree we needed the reasons for Creation to be explained, and then shown what kind of Hubris comes from this.

"whether sub creation is a sin oh and what is sin in an Engineered creation."

Indeed a continuation of the first comment, it would be interesting to see what causes a Sin/Fall.  And how much is this connected to Biblical/Paradise Lost Sin/Fall and indeed the Prometheus one.. is Creation a Sin?  or is interfering with the Purpose of Creation so that it behaves/performs and has a different outlook that Permitted/Intended the Sin/Fall.

"Elizabeth in that beautiful scene left out of Prometheus talks about the story she was told as a child of the Sun being lonely so we were created. She is also inspirational on the matter of we are not alone"

Again and the rest of this Paragraph you wrote are all very interesting, to ponder WHY  would a God Create Life is important and how close is this to WHY would a Human Create Life (Weyland) i hate to think the explanation is as Holloway says to David "because we could" and also what is of interest with the Dr Shaw Scene is how her Father says those African Villages dont need his help as their God is Different.  "based on the notion there is one God for one people" certainly interesting to explore HOW/WHY we ended up with different interpretations of Gods, and then finding out the TRUE purpose and Hierarchy of the Gods.

"However I like your point about what are they for. The assumption in the movies seems to be Mankind, Dogs, Ox. They could be for some thing really significant. Unlike the mutagen the cycle is very ritualistic that might be important. "

I think it could be interesting to explore this, because before we got the whole GODS aspect/plot.  We did have some unused elements from STARBEAST which was the Ritualistic Procreation of a Alien Race who required Sacrifice, and also HR Giger's Concepts, which showed that these Bald Humanoids, were Sacrificing their own kind to allow for the Procreation of such a Horrific Beast.  So its interesting to ponder what SYMBIOSIS this implied.

Finally the Concept of Paradise, this is interesting to explore what way this would have been/could have been explored in context to the Franchise, there are many views of what Paradise is... is it HEAVEN were we go when we Die?  Not Really perhaps... because the Concept of Heaven is NOT where we all go... its only where those deemed Worthy Go, be it those who keep to the Rules/Appease their Gods, those who have done a Good Deed/Died in Glorious Battle..  a Common theme of Paradise is it is a PLACE that only a Specific Proportion of Persons can go to.  Its interesting to see how this would be explored, it does not have to be shown as indeed a Literal Spiritual Realm of the Dead... but i do think that a Specific place that only a selection of those deemed Worthy are allowed and i guess its to ponder WHO and WHY

The other Paradise is the Cradle of Creation, a Place where GOD/Gods had Created a Paradise for their Creation (Mankind) to Dwell and be watched over, that they end up being kicked out of after Disobedience.  I think exploring this and a Paradise that is intended for only the Worthy/Chosen in context to how this fits with the PLOT of the Engineers and Creation is something that is interesting to Exlplore.

All of these things i have replied to, in context to some of your comments are things we maybe could have been shown HAD they been allowed to go where PROMETHEUS was heading.

And i am truly looking forwards to your interpretations and take on such a subject, as i know how Passionate you are and how much Thought goes into your interpretations that i cant wait to Read your work ;)

"Why would the Engineers share their pathogen producing planet/system with Earthlings/cave people?!"

I think this is a interesting Question, one which i look forwards to Michelle's interpretation.  I dont really intend to give to much towards what i felt about it, so as to no De-Rail this Thread.

We see with Prometheus that they felt (well Dr Shaw did) that it was a invitation, but latter she realizes and says that we were WRONG.  There are groups who feel it was a INVITATION and others who feel it was a TRAP

I feel it was NEITHER...  i think we have to look at our Engineers as a Race who Created us and had visited us, but they DID-NOT reveal all their Knowledge and Secrets to us.  Some Knowledge was just not intended for us, as we are close to THEM.. it is their Advanced Knowledge that makes them Superior.  The Fear of what this Knowledge would do if it Falls into the Wrong Hands is certainly Good Reason for those beings to Eradicate us so that we NEVER reach the Stars.

So its not a Invitation because i think those beings back then had never intended us to leave this place of our Free-Will.  We are on this ROCK Light Years from their Home-world.   If you are stranded on a Island and you can not swim far and have no idea how to build a boat, then you can not arrive at other Lands. Those who Stranded you there have no Concerns or Worries that you could ever leave this place... because in Hubris they feel you would never Self-Learn the Knowledge and Tools to be able to leave that Island.

I think Forbidden Knowledge that plays the Key Role. And Hubris.. WHOM and to WHAT end did those Engineers Teach Mankind, how much had we been taught? was it too much, or as a Creation in their image is it such a Hubris to think without their interaction we would just and always be CAVE-MEN?  But as we are similar to them, there is that Potential to Evolve to what we are now, was it a case if just that LITTLE bit of Knowledge passed, had started the Ball Rolling?

I think LV-223 was a Sandbox, a Safe-place to Create/Evolve Life away from their Home-world and to then introduce to various worlds when they are pleased with the Results.   A Nursery, a Greenhouse if you would.

so the STAR-MAPS where saying "This is where we Created you" its not a invitation, its not the location of where they (Engineers) came from and Certainly not the Location of a Secret Bio-Weapons Death Camp...

But at some point the place indeed Turned into such a Place, the Question is WHEN/HOW/WHY.  And i think it is interesting to wonder HOW and IF Michelle's work will answer this.

"so the STAR-MAPS where saying "This is where we Created you" its not a invitation, its not the location of where they (Engineers) came from and Certainly not the Location of a Secret Bio-Weapons Death Camp..."

"And i think it is interesting to wonder HOW and IF Michelle's work will answer this..."

That works for me! Thanks.

No more derailing.....

Go Michelle!

Excellent direction Michelle Johnston. Please include me on your list of those requesting to read your work.

@ignorantGuy

I understand what you are saying, for me examining motive is not about judgement it is about getting to know your characters better and understanding their frailties and respecting them as flawed human beings why they do things. Thats why I refer to the Ripley/Clemens exchange, for once Ripley isn't just smashing her way through the narrative. But to my point now that I am looking really hard at all the characters that are "important to the narrative" in Prometheus I actually can see their reasoning ever more clearly. Weyland was always going to make David and try and beat the rules. But once you have that front and centre then Vickers reaction to her father needs more clarity. If she wasn't on board making decisions it would not be important but she is and she burns a man to death that cannot be ignored anymore than Elizabeth healing David.  

The more we can get to know him the more we get to know ourselves and then work out why are we like we are. For me the three characters that I have really enjoyed really getting to know are Charlie, Vickers and one I am coming on to the Engineer who has survived. So I am not questioning and stopping the narrative because I think their stupid I am showing the reader more about what they are and why they do these things so I might stand a chance in communicating more emotional weight rather than the first book being the book of the film. If I could make some of it the film of the book that would be humbling and wonderful         

@BigDave

Reading your responses is encouraging because particularly given your way of looking at this franchise I want to make two things clear:-

1) I have taken a view about what we are seeing and hearing and then worked from there. Thats not the bit I want to discuss when people have read the books. We have discussed those things endlessly. Though in my research I find it interesting that Damon can be asked a question and he responds by saying if you do not know the answer to that we must have failed because its in the movie. But nevertheless those arguments for me do not have legs. My Glossary answers all those types of issues and whereas I expected a lot of comments about those decisions I have had none yet. There have been lots of comments but not about I don't think its a whatever. My choices must at worse be unexceptionable.     

2) I have not written Regained on the basis that this where Ridley and Damon view they were going. (They had no story just a destination and what it would look like). Instead I have said they created a mythos where creation is neither Darwin or Creationism and its tough and unsentimental what would it look like and what might go wrong and what possible good or bad is there in a believer and a robot wandering around in this. 

 @Michelle teacher what did i do wrong? 

@ignorantGuy

"So my conundrum is what is what to do in this situation."

 Did I misunderstand these remarks about Peter Weyland? I thought I was agreeing with you that Logic dictates that he was wrong to go there but even more wrong to go down and wake the Engineer but because he could do it and it was what he wanted and he had no other alternative it still made sense to do it.

@Michelle I was talking more about humanity as a whole if it would discover evidence of ancient visitation. I don't think it is absolutely wrong to seek them out,  indeed maybe lower your expectations,

@ignorantGuy

That first point about him being wrong to go there requires more elaboration on my apart. It is what I think but in a more nuanced way.

Science (Holloway, Milburn a part of Elizabeth) would always seek out the system embedded in the Pictograms.

Faith (The other part of Elizabeth) would because it would overlay a projected view that it was an invitation. 

Those all seem a reasonable view point to have from man kinds point of view and to approach the planetoid with due care. That makes sense.

However the purpose of the Prometheus mission is for Peter Weyland to find the answer to eternal life and so the things that go wrong indeed every single thing that goes wrong on the 25th (in my novel treatment) is due to Weyland's brief to those in the know.The material facts always lead back to him. David found the consul containing the cuneiform lettering with some green paste left on the panel. His activating the panel begins the story of meddling and theft on the 25th and he keeps on meddling until he personally suffers the most awful outcome.

Without that subtext things may not have gone wrong, more caution would be have applied as expressed in Elizabeth response in the sanctuary. 

So I am good for mankind to go, mind you we should not need to have that kind of relationship with our creators but thats for another time.

However despite that the one holding the purse strings at dawn on the 27th December is the person of faith. Now that is not my projection that is how Ridley and Damon left it.

In the sub created world of Prometheus that should have told us a great deal about what was REALLY going on and what happened next so there was always a chance even though Peter Weyland put it all in motion.

Thanks for that suggestion, it enabled me to see what I am already doing with Book 1 more clearly. Its fascinating when you start with instinct and then find out why you had it in a literary sense.

I hope that puts is in the same place.

"wake the Engineer "

This is what I find really fascinating about Prometheus,   Weylands creation(David) allows them to wake the Engineer...Without David they're not getting onto that ship(Juggernaut) or very far into the tombs...(Probably have to blow a big hole in the wall just to enter the sacrificial chamber)...Chances are very good they wouldn't be able to wake or figure out the flute/Orrey system. Let alone, actually speaking with an alien lifeform.

Kind of cool to think of the story without a synth.

Probably returned empty handed?

Shaw "You can't just blow a hole in that door! You might destroy what we're looking for!!"

Fifield approaches the Engineers hypersleep pod..

'Knock, Knock'

"Hello big boy...Mister Weyland wants to speak with you"

"Without that subtext things may not have gone wrong, more caution would be have applied as expressed in Elizabeth response in the sanctuary."

I think and this kind of goes with the notion/set up that Holloway and Dr Shaw found clues to this Place, that on on hand if we received such clues i think Ultimately it would be in Mankinds Curious Nature to go and seek them out.  And even though you could have a Large Religious Sect that would argue against it, and also a % of people who would think its not a GREAT idea... Ultimately the Biggest/Wealthiest and Most Powerful Persons/Cooperations/Governments would have the Final Say if the Powers that Be wanted to go off and explore these Clues then (even in real life) there is No One to stop them but other Powers that Be....  IF/WHEN say the USA or RUSSIA decide to go back to the Moon, every other Nation could object but Ultimately those with the Greatest Wealth/Power would still go and do it.  So eventually i feel someone on Earth in context to the Franchise would have eventually had taken up those Clues to the Star Maps and Seeked out the Gods.

This may have been many years after Prometheus though, but eventually i feel someone would have gone...  with Dr Shaw and Holloway they wanted to go NOW well soon, but they had to get someone to back the Mission as they could not afford to fund such a Venture...  This is where they had to persuade Mr Weyland... and he was only really interested because indeed he was at Deaths Door, with no Cure and so even though its Clutching at Straws there are no other options to extend his LIFE.

So back to that part of your post... "Without that subtext things may not have gone wrong" 

I feel that at the very least, if they NEVER opened any Doors and went back to the Ship, David would have gone and informed the Hidden Peter Weyland who would no doubt had then sent David a Mission to go back and investigate what lies behind those Doors.  So no matter how Cautious Dr Shaw or Holloway are,  David would have eventually opened the Pandoras Box by following Weylands Orders.

I also do think that Holloway would also had gave in to his Curiosity and Pursuit of Answers and as he wanted to open his Christmas Present Early... if he was not allowed to, i think after wondering around the Place with all its Sealed Doors, eventually he would have tried, or asked David to open a Door... that could have led to another Tomb (Room like the Big Head Room) or even the DOOR to the Juggernaught and so they would have came across the Cargo Hold Urns, and the Alive Engineer.

It would have been then a case of how cautious are they or does curiosity lead to taking a Urn back to the Ship, or even awakening the Engineer and even if the rest had been cautious, it would have came down to David doing so at the order of Weyland.

They was all DOOMED no soon as they set foot on this place, even though we can Ponder could removing their Helmets had contaminated the Ampoule/Urn Room (have to ask the purpose of the Space Jockey suits).  Had they kept their Helmets on, i think some other event would have lead to their Destruction....

Only if the Ship had no David and Weyland, that maybe they could have not suffered the Fate they did... but with the Findings, we have to assume EVENTUALLY the company or another would have sent another Mission to LV-223 in Future and somebody would then open PANDORA'S box.

This is one of the interesting themes at play... that somethings are not meant to be Touched/Opened or Explored but Curiosity always kills the Cat!

@BigDave

The unbundling of motive in a literary context does several things :-

1) It reminds the reader of the stakes of taking certain actions. 

2) It reminds the reader where the jeopardy is coming from. 

I had a very interesting conversation two nights ago with a sci fi fan who went to see Prometheus and remembers it in the way the average film goer does as being fascinating but muddled as to what was precisely going on and what the big picture was trying to say. I explained that I am telling the story from a point of irony that Weyland is on board and the point of the mission is to gain the gods permission to extend his life.You know that from the first page. The consequence of that is all of Davids (and others) actions have more context and gives the narrative more certainty so thats a point about communication and one can then focus on Elizabeth and Charlie (and Janek) from the point of the morality of the tale and lift them in to more prominence.

Charlie would do anything and everything and Elizabeth despite everything makes the journey to the wake up. The consequence of that is these "good" people end up suffering terribly. But Elizabeth is "carrying" Charlie with her as she sets off into the heavens that at a philosophical level provides a chance for both of them. 

The issue that mankind would always reach out to the Pyramids is one that requires addressing. Both in terms of the narrative and the mythos.

1) In the first phase mankind was saved by a catastrophic something in the same way the facility in Janek's tale to Meredith was summarily destroyed.

2) In the second phase the nobility of mankind and Elizabeth's exhortations' saved mankind.

I am not sure at a mythical level there is more to tell so action needs to be taken to square the circle so that 1 and 2 mean something definitive in story terms and philosophically. So you are right we would always go there but I would argue only once.

The idea that somethings should never be touched or played with is central to Elizabeths story. She needs her answers as a scientist whereas her faith side does not. Her father simply believed, Elizabeth is more complicated. That means in the end she has to be the most important element of the story because she is the confluence of the two dichotomies and in an Intelligent Universe only she can find where to pitch things.

David at the beginning of the final chapter of the film makes his first ever mistake he gets something wrong. He is showing emotions to Elizabeth so his story is fascinating to, how does a robot taught to understand the human narraitve of emotions who then begins to bleed them himself fit in?

The answer in the context of Elizabeth is very very simple he is knowledge he enables things to happen, for himself at what point will he rely on faith only, rather like the sacrificial acolyte , when he is sure of the facts I would say. That sounds like a contradiction but not in an Engineered Universe.

As to the Engineers at the end of the Prometheus the ones that used the Green Element in the ampule with the Black threads that pulse through that ampule are all dead, vanquished so whatever they did was quite clearly wrong very wrong and involved misuse and theft of technology to use Ridleys words. If that is true it poses a very interesting question and now who is more important to the big picture Prometheus or Pandora? How do you stop endless punishment and the releasing of woes upon mankind following the "Engineers" action. Probably everyone has to pitch in.         

Indeed i can agree with that, David was a key role in how things went to pot too, he never waited for any Permission to open that Door "Opps" as he said.   The whole Theme about seeking out Answers, Pursuing Knowledge  to things that we really SHOULD not be doing or go looking for, is very Evident, so too is the Pursuit of Perfection, and Extending Life.  And i agree we can wonder if the DOWNFALL of those Engineers was because they was doing or attempting to do something they should have left ALONE

A Part of me does think some kind of Sabotage had occurred on LV-223, and maybe the Last Engineer was some kind of Savior... but No Soon as Mankind Turn up and he Witnessed via Weyland and his Creation that his Brothers were indeed Correct in wishing to Undo their Unruly Creation, the Deleted Scenes seem to fit more with this kind of potential Sabotage Route... but we have to go with the Theatrical Portrayal of the Engineer as a Angry SOB.

"If that is true it poses a very interesting question and now who is more important to the big picture Prometheus or Pandora? How do you stop endless punishment and the releasing of woes upon mankind following the "Engineers" action. Probably everyone has to pitch in"

Certainly would be interesting to see any outcome of such... we have to remember that after all the WOES unleashed, Pandoras Box does have HOPE left in it, and maybe this Hope could tie in with Dr Shaws Faith/Hope of what she could achieve if she gets the Chance to MEET our Makers.

http://myloveofprometheus.blogspot.com

We are now one month away from 'Erko' - share. 

"Pandora's Urn" and "Regained" are now finished. Surprisingly I thoroughly enjoyed writing an interpretation of the events of 25th/26th December 2093.

In these final days I will carry out any last minute revisions and corrections to the two texts. 

As promised I look forward to releasing it to a wider, though private, audience in time for Christmas. 

Once again as this is a discussion forum I should make it clear I have not completed this labour of love to spark discussion, comparison or attempt to second guess earlier aspirations of the director and executive producer of Prometheus that they discussed in the spring of 2012. I have  laid out my rule book and interpretative decisions in a 4200 word glossary. They are not right or wrong they are my view.

My reason for posting is simple it is to share a story, the characters and their journey related to the movie Prometheus. To take Science, Faith and Knowledge and find their answers. 

I look forwards to reading them, i am always welcome to alternative Stories to Fill In Gaps or Replace Elements

I have had many ideas over the years, alternatives that is, i just cant get Motivated to Dedicate them to Completion like you have Michelle, one latest idea was to do a Alternative Prometheus 2.... (i had attempted before) but one i pondered are what IF we see David and Dr Shaw take a Journey to the Engineers World that is on the Other Side of the Galaxy or Even another Galaxy, and a Alternative Follow up where they Return back in the Future, with a Alternative Time-Line, where the Taking of the Juggernaught on LV-223 had activated another that Carried on and Dropped its Cargo on Earth so when Dr Shaw and David return back to Earth after Discovering Paradise is NOT what Dr Shaw thought it would be, she goes HOME to discover Earth is is now a HELL and a very HR Giger Alien Hive World.

I hope it does not come across like i trying to Hijack the Tread.... what i was saying i am very open minded and enjoy seeing other peoples take on HOW things should have Proceeded and i am really looking forwards to reading your Labor of Love on the Project Michelle.

@ BigDave

Its quite understandable that fans come up with scenarios, rule books and then kind of stop because the challenge for the writer of a book is the same as the screen play. Where is the story ? Without a story your wandering about in the mist. 

Prometheus is much more closely related to 2001 than ALIEN it is rich in thematic qualities and symbolism. Everything in the film the look, the characters what happens to them is a mixture of those qualities. However when you arrive at the end of the experience something very interesting has happened the mode of storytelling has subtly changed. For whatever reason, one being Weyland's death, two characters have entered into a traditional narrative bond.

The story is no longer driven by ideas its driven by them. They have 'form' both individually and collectively and most importantly that relationship has unused dramatic potential.       

Finding the story out of that was easy but I am not constrained by an ALIEN straight jacket. Of course by telling their story it is then also easy to answer all the questions because between them they represent all of them.

As regards the first part of the tale. Ridley had Prometheus on the streets in two years I have had chance to think about the movie for six years and then make adjustment's to how to express the themes and symbolism.     

John Logan said that with Covenant Ridley got comfortable with the relationship with the creature but in story telling terms there are four elements to that relationship. LV426/Derelict/Pilot/Cargos' destination. Why not acknowledge that ?

What I find most fascinating is that in my research I found others had written speculatively about where next and once you have read one particular article and read the books you might wonder if I have plagiarised the story development is so similar. But most pleasing was last week I found an I V with Noomi from 2014 where she was asked where she thought Elizabeth might go philosophically and it was the same place I have taken her.