Prometheus : Theodicy

Michelle

I've started reading and enjoy it. You use an omniscient narrator but much of Elisabeth is you, isn't it, feeling isolated and different (among men and people in general :) )?

chli

Omniscient Narrator 

That is entirely correct and that is because in this constructed mythos in the movie we know about the Waterfall Incident and in the book I know precisely what that means but those participating in the story, film or book, do not...to begin with (in the books).

Elizabeth

Thanks for this question :-

1) Film to Book Elizabeth is very very closely aligned so I would argue I am recording Ridley's vision. 

2) With the prologue and book 2 her portrayal is heavily influenced by 

i The serious young girl asking her father where do we go when we die. 

ii As the only child of a missionary in Africa I used a character from a Rider Haggard novel as a template. She was a daughter of a dutch missionary priest, isolated, used to living off her own resources but profoundly interested in matters of the spirit. Unsurprisingly she was socially naive living in an isolated mission.

When Noomi was doing wardrobe tests they dressed her in quite sophisticated outfits but then settled on her field suit again simple unsophisticated.

Her natural inclination then was to keep her own company and revel in her surroundings which I emphasis in the prologue. My eldest daughter is married to a Vicar but she is a very social creature but shares the humble uncomplicated personality traits of Elizabeth and her serious persona but she was never in my mind. 

iii The line in the Crossing "what if they are no better" again a comment on mankind in general and only heightened by what happens during the Moon event which I make darker.

iv Damon Lindelof's comment that she is our proxy. We want the questions she has answered.

Her being isolated and feeling different from her contemporaries is not only a crucial part of her overarching journey but plays very heavily into her journey with David.            

Her being barren is not significant other than it has a part to play in a story about creation and the forbidden fruit. It is a function of the narrative not her per se. 

If her portrayal feels very real and very personal then I am pleased. I do not have any issues as regards men or woman. I have two quite separate teams of men that I lead on my building projects and they love working with me as I do them. I am one of an increasing number of independent professional woman who do not need a man financially or for companionship and my really dynamic relationships are with both woman and men and they tend to be much younger than me. I love their enthusiasm for life and its boundless possibilities rather than the two generations above them who are becoming more and more cynical and not a little entitled, and if thats me its nothing to do with Elizabeth.      

Where I agree with Elizabeth and David is that mankind isn't doing very well and that plays into Ridley's point we may be a footnote and explain why we are not doing well.

I hope that helps and fingers and toes cross you continue to enjoy the books.   

Michelle

I have read your novelization (Book 1), and I liked it very much. I think I prefer this version to the one we got (Prometheus).

The prologue is nice about Elisabeth and her father in Africa. Instead of the digging in the film (Isle of Skye), we get to know the main character better and Africa gives a nice background - where humans originated on Earth (There is also, later on, a nice allegory about the sun (God) feeling lonely . . .).

I think this version is a bit closer to Spaihts’. Good riddance to Fifield and Milburn and the Hammerpede. Instead, we get “proof” of the Engineers creating or “harvesting” the xenomorph which leads to one attacking Hamilton and Milburn (there is, perhaps, a hint back to Alien when the monster descends upon Brett and the tail wriggles behind the back of Lambert? :) )

This is, of course, also what the Engineers were running from 2000 years ago (which is seen in the hologram), and what infected the Space Jockey.

“If Janek’s theory was right who pushed the little grey button 2,000 years ago”? Well, I suppose it could have been self-triggered for quarantine? One door decapitates an Engineer and another door leaves a bunch of Engineers outside safety and behind them comes a xenomorph (or crawling facehuggers).

This version would have pleased the fans who expected to see the xenomorph and is still quite close to Prometheus with Elisabeth’s search for existential answers.

There are some spelling errors here and there, and a shift from the past to present tense in some places - perhaps intentionally?

Well done!

I'm now reading Book2 and it's been interesting to visit the other pyramids. As for the Derelict, it's an imaginative solution to the hole that David made it climbing up and that he set the beacon. The Derelict is also on LV-223 (not LV-426). How come? I also wonder how old it's supposed to be since it started to decay as they decompressed the Derelict (it would perhaps even decay faster when there is air . . .)

chili

Book 1

This is very encouraging and thank you for mentioning some spelling errors. I have just passed back through it and found two, lain instead of laid and one other where they had the y missing but spell check is on and it wasn't picking up any others. Sometimes I get where were and wear muddled. Frankly every time I work through it I am surprised to find something. I have created a space before each question mark so ? rather so? it seems crushed in word press and yet I still discover some have no space.

On the more general narrative points :-

1) If you put the waterfall incident in the first story you then need a visual connection, the Isle of Skye cave painting. Conversely if you remove the waterfall scene which is the ultimate expression of Ridleys thinking (meeting God in the second movie) then the "Isle of Skye" is not needed for the connection and simply slows the narrative down. 

2) Very pleased you like the remodelled second act and yes Frances Milburn's experience is based on the cut scene from A L I E N and an interview with either Veronica or Ridley where it is explained precisely what Lambert would be feeling at that moment. I also think getting the answer about the creature would have enabled you to view the movie as a standalone film which in Charlize mind it was.  

3) Vickers for me was a character that was caught between Jon and Damons scripts. Once you have Weyland front and centre you can solve that problem and I am very comfortable with her final decision. Some of that idea came from the fact that after Janek she had her hair down in a pony tail visually she had let go but really its all about more focus on Weyland and playing against that.  

Book 2 

When David wakes he is in the presence of the Nativity painting by P D F, which includes a figure pointing to a hole in the roof looking toward heaven. This is one of the three  destiny markers in the room for David.

The decision to have the Moon was a reaction to many conversations, not on this site, but ordinary film goers about the confusion caused by having two Moons. That the lone craft is 100 Kilometres from the Pyramids is significant to the overall story but explains David being aware of it. Remember there is no Beacon at this point (that idea is buried in some extras) and of course Davids choice has character building value. In my study of the Furious Gods it became clear that for most of the time the movie was being made the Prometheus landed on LV426.

The internal state of the Lone Craft and the Engineer Suit when they arrive should be identical to the Craft and Suits 'hung up' in the movie. I do not want to say to much about what David sees (or misses) in the chair because it plays into the story. David thinks he has seen a dead humanoid encased in a suit which is damaged on the upper right side.

When the craft is depressurised it is subject to a huge drop in temperature and the dirty winds of the planet and it then suffers degradation. I imagine in A L I E N it to be like coming upon a dead body suffering from artic exposure and the ferocious elements of the planet 29 years later.

Many people have referred to the area around the derelict as hinting at broken mechanical shapes, that gave me the idea of dropping Prometheus wreckage there which also would be affected by the inhospitable conditions and merge into the hostile environment thats just a touch rather than very important.

How long the derelict has been there is something you have yet to discover. It has story telling value. When Prometheus was out and Ridley was asked when it got into trouble he said within a couple of hundred years of the Pyramid Incident.  

The Lone Craft

Just to clarify you know at this stage the Ovoid's come from the first pyramid complex and therefore the derelict must have been in its current location for at least two thousand years, maybe more but at least 2,000 years.

Naturally Elizabeth and David are puzzled by its cargo and its destination which they expect to find answers for. David has recordings of the Mural and understands the ritual of the  first part of the cycle but no more.  

Sounds Interesting Michelle ;)

I have been Busy but i will give that site you made a Good Read, and i am really looking forwards to that.

Keep up the Good Work ;)

To have Miss Vickers develop into something better is fine with me and also to get rid of the tumbling croissant. Perhaps the destruction of the juggernaut is enough as a climax but since there is no angry Engineer coming after Shaw, perhaps the xenomorph should have been “saved” for a final battle? On the other hand, it’s a bit tiresome with macho women . . . :)

It’s still a mystery about the mutagen and the eggs (and I'm not sure that the ovoids are "the lesser of two evils" :) ). I’ll keep on reading . . .

chli

The ending of the movie is caught up with the core dilemma that Ridley's wrestled with. On the one hand he wants to make a fresh movie and is enjoying himself but gets pulled back by that part of his brain that is about advertising and the related perceived benefits of the franchise (and its tropes). 

I have the advantage of a not for profit project and can simply focus on story. If this "all about everything" then the two punch climax of the Roy Batty question leading to the main jeopardy and the subsequent saving of mankind for the second time in 2,000 years is not only enough but enables the viewer/reader to focus on whats really happening in the story. 

Your point about the Ripley/Creature stand off which was done brilliantly in two movies is well made. The Daniels/Creature riff in AC is the perfect example of what happens when you deliberately repeat yourself. 

As your in Book 2 its worth offering this observation from my original very long forward.

"The third task was to decide what the mode of the story telling would be. To some extent this is driven entirely by the narrative considerations and the big idea for the mythos but I decided to try my hand at making all the players routed in normality and then the horror would be in the ideas and the detail of the effect of creating a mutagen whose base sequence is artificial intelligence rather than have monsters and bad tempered big guys running around. It seems to me if you want to pursue a companion piece which is part of a narrative whole make the second piece function differently. I appreciate given the rigidity of a global film audience that is a luxury I can afford whereas the filmmakers cannot. Nevertheless to write an extension which has a different atmosphere is not so very different from the relationship between Aliens and A3 where the link was Ripley.

Well, you need to build up (a lot of) tension so you get a "catharsis" at the climax. For example, in Jaws, there was a debate between Spielberg and Benchley whether Brody should blow up the shark as the climax of the movie (and it worked).

(The Age of) Aquarius reminds me of Hair and the hippie movement in the 60s and 70s. This was the age of Däniken and the abduction of the Hills, which is fitting. :)

I am enjoying your energy for feedback and remarks. I am glad you got the Age of Aquarius I loved the idea of Elizabeth lying back nonchalantly in the couch and making the connection with the 1960's.

On the point of movie climax's I think some movies suffer from director anxiety and the third act lacks that unutterable remorseless build BUT and this is the key, in a focused manner.

There is a moment of high tension when Janek breaks the news to Chance and Ravel that "he's on board." and Janek is completely wound up and just at the moment the two pilots look at each other and decide its not a good time to begin closing out the bet on the reason for the mission (and obtaining credits for a lap dance with Vickers). I liked that and it rounded out that first conversation where they make the bet the old man has come to talk to Martians.

When you are going in search of your creators some of it has to be humorous.      

"Whilst taking his supplement David mulled over what he should do next. Elizabeth he knew must rest, she needed more time to recover, he on the other hand must confront whatever lay in wait now. He knew this was only partially true, there were several reasons why he wanted to take this first step alone."

I hope you don't mind my asking why you frequently use comma splice (three in this quotation). Is this intentionally? To me, it's irritating and destroys beauty somewhat. You write so well so it seems so unnecessary.

 chli

Thank you for that 

"Whilst taking his supplement David mulled over what he should do next. Elizabeth he knew must rest she needed more time to recover he on the other hand must confront whatever lay in wait now. This was only partially true there were several reasons why he wanted to take this first step alone."

I have taken out the comma's and the repetition of He knew. My comma thing is a hang over from my X partner who said my grammar was bad. 

Feedback like that is most welcome and you have reminded me comma splice is about connecting two independent thoughts or ideas whereas this is a single expression of Davids thoughts. 

It’s not my intention to be rude. It’s just that I’ve become a bit wacky (being a teacher). :) Also, English isn’t my mother tongue so perhaps I’m extra scrutinizing . . .

This sentence is wrong (comma splice): “She sings beautifully, she dances well.”

These two are correct: “She sings beautifully. She dances well.” ; “She sings beautifully and dances well.”

Here’s a grammatically correct paragraph:

"Whilst taking his supplement, David mulled over what he should do next. Elizabeth he knew must rest. She needed more time to recover. He, on the other hand, must confront whatever lay in wait now. This was only partially true. There were several reasons why he wanted to take this first step alone."

There’s a comma after the subordinate clause in the beginning and in the other places there’s a period after a full sentence (subject and predicate).

I've just read Stephen King's "On writing" which I recommend. I also recommend Grammarly.

Anyway, I’ve read it all now and will get back shortly with some thoughts.

chli I don't to be rude but is the right place to dissect every paragraph with bad grammar. I can not suggestion Grammarly strong enough, but could you continue the grammar thing on mail or something?

Sorry I am selfish and I would like to hear more about ideas and the themes .... 

Gentlemen I have downloaded Grammarly and as I begin to type this post it is clear it has automatically linked to G. However without extracting the two books out of Wordpress can either of you explain how I enable Wordpress to interact with the programme. Many thanks in anticipation.

On the question of ideas and themes, I always welcome remarks but with several people reading the books at once at the moment I would prefer to deal in generalisations rather than spoil their journey.

Suffice to say Act 1, for the most part, is an extension of the way Prometheus tells its story.

Act 2 Immediately begins the process of being more oblique and this occurs in three ways:-

a)  For the first time, the omniscient narrator makes itself known to the players, though they do not know it for that.

b) The concept of multiple personality traits develops.

c) The story takes place in an environment and with characters which are contraindicative and not through deception simply lack of mutual understanding and shared values.

This tackles one of the themes of the first half of the story. Mankind makes assumptions and argues over the authenticity of various views and none of them is correct.

The reason I make this point is some of what happens in both Act 2 and 3 may appear inexplicable well it is and it is meant to be because I have tried to get into their heads as well as express mankind's view from a grounded point of view.   

There is also a further point I would make about the inexplicable nature of the interactions between the various "factions" This entire story is about misunderstandings and an inability to recognise how others see things. However, whereas differences in Prometheus are dealt with in a classical manner exemplified by Jackson, differences in Book 2 are dealt with first by disconnection and then abandonment. The reason is to show that the soup Mankind was made with uniquely creates a climate in which a species destroys each other. That is why when you see evidence of such behaviour it is so striking and a surpise.    

IgnorantGuy

Yes, you are both rude and selfish. I did this with the best of intentions and strongly suggest that the next time you read something that is not up your alley, just skip it. OK?

My next post will be about the content and if you have nothing constructive to say about it. Just be quiet.

chli In your class room do you do the same? After a test or after correcting homework, do you call your pupils in front of the classroom to go over mistakes so everybody can hear? I highly doubt it. 

If anybody else is interested in grammar talk, I'll say mea culpa and recognize this should not be done via private message but directly on the forum. And now I'll shut up.

Come on, we're all friends here. Time to calm down a bit!

I am pleased to report that after closing down and reopening my Mac the Grammarly programme is now embedded in Wordpress as a tool. 

I have screened all of Book 1 and Act 1 of Book 2 in about an hour and will complete the rest today.

Whilst it is important to get everything right so as not to distract, I think the reason it has not been brought up before is that the grammatical shortcomings did not affect understanding.