Alien: Exodus

I think its interesting to ponder how it connects to Paradise Lost as it appeared this was referenced quite a bit in regards to the sequel to Prometheus, but HOW Literal, and how much had carried over to Alien Covenant is unknown.

If Planet 4 was Paradise then maybe we could look at it in Context to the Biblical Account and Paradise Lost, where Paradise is where the Garden of Eden is located and is a Place where the Creation of Mankind occurred and place that is Secluded/Walled Compound, watched over by Guardian Cherubim Angels. 

I think Planet 4 and its City do fit that BILL, a Secluded Place on the Whole Planet, Protected, and those Engineers look more Human, we come from them and this means maybe this place is the Origin of our Kind.

Satan/Lucifer and his Fallen Angels were Forbidden from Paradise and Heaven and Banished to HELL and to dwell the Earth. 

Pandemonium is the City that Lucifer/Satan has created so that they can Reign in Hell, because they refused to Serve in Heaven. 

Maybe what was ONCE Paradise (Planet 4) had become Pandemonium (this was alleged to have been Prometheus 2 Title as far as a Source i had from Feb 2015 claimed).

Maybe LV-223 could be looked at as Pandemonium too?

I think it is something interesting to PONDER....

I am drawn to seeing David Set-Up a Colony on Origae-6 and Preside Over, where he may even have set up his own kind of Rules/Religion and have Monuments to himself upon it.  These were certainly things i was covering in my Alien: Ascension idea (Alien: Covenant sequel)

Fangirl Side

"Ridley Scott is simply the best there is in the sci-fi genre," said Sarah Aubrey, executive vp original programming for TNT. "Besides directing some of the most important sci-fi films of all-time, Ridley has created iconic characters from Alien’s Ripley to Prometheus’ Elizabeth Shaw. We're thrilled to have Ridley do the same for us. It's incredibly rare to be able to make television that both challenges one's intellect and also thrills the excited fangirl side — Raised by Wolves is that rare show that does both." (source)

Are the androids in Raised by Wolves women in appearance?

I will post the PM i sent you Ingeniero as a kind of Summary to the OT

I dont think we will see any W-Y connection as it wont be a Licensed Series based on ALIEN.

But as my Topic was looking at, the next movie was to NOT be about Xenomorphs but to be about AI, and RS had indicated in a related Interview that Replicants were AI which means that RS is thinking of AI as more than Robots... and that a AI can be Flesh and Blood.

Also looking at "what kind of a world would David build" this seems interesting to me, we see David did appear to have respect for Dr Shaw compared to other humans who he felt has not treated him well, which makes me come to the comments about how he said "your very kind of heart" to Dr Shaw.  Then maybe we can look at Davids reply to Daniels when she asked "what kind of a world can we build"  he replies "if we are kind to it, then it can be a kind world"

Next we look at the AURORA - Nature Boy Song

This Fits David very well....

Then we spoke of many things
Fools and kings  (Weyland and Engineers)

Then he said to me:
"The greatest thing you'll ever learn
Is to love and be loved in return"

We see how he felt about Dr Shaw due to how she treated him, compared to his dislike for those who Mistreat him.

Then when we look at the Themes of Prometheus, which is Creation, Knowledge, Free Will and Hubris.  We see from the Weyland Prologue inc Ted Talk, and the Ozymandias Poem that what makes someone God-like is Creation, when we DIE we are remembered by our Deeds, or Creation be that Offspring, or Art or Monuments and Achievements... but eventually all of these Disappear.

If we look at the overall Bigger Picture then we ask... WHAT makes Mankind Wicked Beings, what makes us a Race that GOD would want to Destroy....

Knowledge and Free-will.... Potentially David could become very Dangerous to Mankind.... a Walter lacks the Free-will and Knowledge and he would not Rebel and become Sentient to his own WHIM.

If Adam and Eve never ate from the Forbidden Fruit, they would have been more like a Walter instead of David.   It was the Free-will Perfection that Lucifer had, that lead him to NOT see why his kind should serve GOD.

Noah was Saved from the Flood as GOD deemed him a Good Honest, Clean and Sinless Man... who would Follow Gods Ways....   Moses was given the 10 Commandments as he was deemed the same.

Every Child is Born Sin Free... its their Knowledge Given and Upbringing that Shapes what they become..

The Prequels touch on Perfection Evolution and Pursuit of such things...

If we look at those Colonist, they have their own Free-will, they are Sentient, we dont know if they are Religious or Not.... or if they are KIND or potentially could be Selfish and Wicked..  You could TRY and change the way a Person Can think and behave, but people can be Corrupted, or some are already so and cant change.

A New-Born, or Young Child or anyone who has there Memory Wiped, could be Brought Up with what every Knowledge is passed on and Influenced and Shaped by those who Teach/Raise Them.

For David  such persons could be Manipulated to Behave and See him for however he wishes, even have them see him as their Creator/God.   For the Engineers, if they Deem Mankind cant be Saved.... IF they had taken say a few Hundred Infants they can Raise them to Follow the Engineers Ways/Rules as a Fresh Start... not Corrupted by how Mankind had become.  The same would apply for  a GOD who has seen his Creation become Unruly...... to Save some Children a GOD could MOLD them to follow his ways... this is similar to Noah's Story as GOD deemed him as Pure and Obedient.

If we then go back to the Creation and Perfection Themes..... then for David.... if he raised those Embryos he could have them Follow what ever Rules/Religion and become the KIND of People that David would deem Worthy.   But if we look at the Pursuit of Perfection and Creation, and seeing that David has taken part in Genetic Engineering, then he could Manipulate/Evolve those Embryos to create more Perfect Humans.

Raising them he can Manipulate his Creations to behave and follow what ever Rules/Behavior that David expects.

By Virtue of David Engineering/Perfecting those Embryos which include a increased Growth Rate (which we see often in movies/TV shows that deal with Clones and Genetically Modified Humans) what David would be doing is NOT too far off what TYRELL had in Blade Runner.... thus Davids Engineered Human Embryos would be  ARTIFICIALLY CREATED LIFE-FORM.... a AI.

I do wonder if these kinds of things are CLOSE to what RS may have planned for Alien Covenants Sequel?  They certainly are things i was planning for my sequel (Alien Ascension)

But NO SOON as we have AC2 on Hold and not looking like anything is happening and THEN we have RS Reveal his Raised by Wolves TV Show and that Synopsis... i see in it elements of the above AC2 Plot i pondered.... and i do wonder if this was quite close to what we would have seen?

"I'm always searching for new frontiers in the sci-fi genre and have found a true original in Raised by Wolves — a wholly distinct and imaginative world, full of characters struggling with existential questions: What makes us human? What constitutes a family? And what if we could start over again and erase the mess we’ve made of our planet? Would we survive? Would we do better? Given TNT's impressive run of bold, quality programming, this feels like exactly the right home for this kind of ambitious television,"

Looking into RS comment above.... the Synopsis in Part is similar to the Covenants Mission.  Only the Covenant never Managed to complete its Mission... but the Sequel would have maybe shown what may happen WHEN David is NOW in control of that Mission.

Regarding the Females... i certainly think we could see a Female Android... in Raised by Wolves... i wonder if the other would be Male?

My Alien Ascension introduced a Female Walter (slightly newer  Synthetic Construct) a Female who David like how Lucifer had done with EVE... a Female he could Manipulate to see his Vision, and Join him..... something he tried with Walter but could not TEMPT him.

She becomes a Love Interest for David... but Ultimately this does-not end well (had few ways to explore it, that i was not quite sure how) but it Ultimately ends with his Love Interest.... becoming the Queen to his Wolves.. and HOW the Xenomorph gains its Bio-Mechanical Appearance.

I do WONDER.... if the AC Sequel could have introduced a Female Synthetic that arrives as part of one of the incoming parties...  or would the Covenant Ship have other Synthetics?

Regarding Raised by Wolves, i would be inclined to assume the Androids would be a Male and Female... but its a case of wait and see i guess.

David already had a bit of experience of human missions when the Covenant got to planet 4 - in the end he lost his wrist.(granted, he gained something as well from the Covenant)

David got his xenomorph children, the wolves. He might go ahead and make "sheep" ones - human based children, whom he gifts immortality. He will do as he pleases.

And just to recap, at this point he has an effective bio-weapon, but also, an unpredictable and potentially non-cooperative violent species with chips on both of their shoulders digging for resurrection.

So, would it not make sense for David to somehow deal/diffuse the danger factor coming from the mortal species? Can he make use of his children? Can they rebel? What would engineers think of David's creations anyway if they see them? What would humans think of their cousins? Imagine if he uses Daniels to mother his first evolved bio-child. Won't she have a conflict wrt to the organism she gives birth to?

Those are interesting Questions...

I think that Genetic Engineering is plausible, if we look at it from Davids Perspective, IF he could create a Human that is Superior to Humans and Engineers, then he would have achieved Greater than his Creator and his Creators Creator too.  IF David can Engineer those Embryos so that they become more Immortal then he would have Unlocked the Secrets that Weyland had came to seek out his Makers for (LV-223).  

This fits very well with the Themes/Philosophy that we saw in Prometheus/Alien Covenant and so when i ASSUME the potential is there for some kind of Plot like this in the Sequel, i am not sure it could be ruled out... 

How would Humanity View such Evolved Humans. They could maybe see them as a THREAT, how would these Super Humans View Humanity?  This depends on what they know and are shown by David.

If you could take some Infants and Raise them on another World or Island you can teach them anything... you could say the MOON is made of Cheese and WHO are they to Question it?   So what ever David wishes to Teach them he can, i think this is a Theme that runs with the Prequels and Paradise Lost...  Knowledge is EVERYTHING

If we look at that Synopsis for Raised by Wolves we can see what a difficult task it is to raise different people who have different views and Religions, as INDEED... if you could Start Again on a NEW World and have ONE Religion, then it would be a ideal way to Control, and Maintain Peace.  (Differences in Culture and Religion/Belief does/can lead to Conflicts).

A interesting thing is when you take some Children and Manipulate what ever Knowledge and Truth to them.... the BIG QUESTION.. is what happens when they DISCOVER the Truth?  So in Davids Example.... they discover that all that DAVID has taught is Lies?  This surely would lead to a Rebellion....  Regarding Raised by Wolves, what happens when the Children who may then have different views on Religion to each other Discover their Faiths are False?

How would the Engineers view David's Enhanced Humans, they could be interested and intrigued in what David has accomplished and interested in David himself... but they could also see them as a THREAT

If the Engineers are the Planet 4 ones, then they could maybe see what David is doing as Echoing what they had done years ago (maybe Genetically Engineer/Evolve those Prometheus Engineers).  And at what COST that may have been, so they could see History Repeat itself with what David is doing (assuming he will try and Engineer his own Humans).

If the Returning Engineers are the Prometheus Ones, and indeed they were a Engineered/Evolved Experiment/Creation by the Planet 4 Engineers or a Faction of those Engineers who had Engineered themselves this way, they could maybe see History Repeat and know what THREAT that could be... because they was that Threat to the Planet 4 Engineers themselves.

These i feel are all the kinds of Interesting Ideas that Ridley Scott is a Fan of, but INDEED these are proving to be a Side-track and Distraction from ALIEN but we have to remember, the Intention at the time of PROMETHEUS was to make a New Franchise that Steers Away from ALIEN. So i dont think RS was 100% happy with the direction Alien Covenant had taken.

Regarding Daniels... maybe she could be used for Davids Genetic Experiments he could use her Reproductive Cells to Engineer Humanoids, he could also use them to Produce Xenomorph Eggs.

Katherine Waterston did say that a while back she had heard some interesting Rumors as far as where they could take her Character.... now i think for her to hear Rumors is more likely she had heard some of the ideas they was pondering with her Character.... but she then said of she could END UP in a Body Bag... i feel that comment is a Acknowledgement that during Period Between Movies that Plans can Change.   Such as the Fate of Dr Shaw... i would have said at the Time of Prometheus and say the 6-12 months after Release, that Dr Shaws Plans would not have been to merely appear as a Corpse.

"i feel that comment is a Acknowledgement that during Period Between Movies that Plans can Change.   Such as the Fate of Dr Shaw... i would have said at the Time of Prometheus and say the 6-12 months after Release, that Dr Shaws Plans would not have been to merely appear as a Corpse."

That is most likely spot on BigDave. I'm still clinging to hope to see when Dr. Shaw says no to David but I know that's not likely.

It is nice to see Ridley Scott able to explore the concepts he spoke about before...even if it isn't in film nor based in Alien. Ridley Scott said he had around 37 hours of film from shooting Alien: Covenant...so who knows what that includes.

it is interesting BigDave, to talk about imposing a faith on your children in the context of the movie.

It, religion, makes sense if you are mortal though. If you are eternal, the question of who made you and (who made that maker) makes little sense - you have infinite time to figure out how to make living things on your own. However, you might be supplemented by a legend that there is life after death so that you are perhaps pacified this way and lead on a wrong path if you are mortal. In both cases though the goal is the same : eternal life. One reaches it by virtue of not dying, the other way is a eternal life after death. So it makes sense to question which way is better. Of two ways only one has benefit of serializing them, that is trying out both ways : suppose you are immortal - you can always decide for yourself the other way - life after death.

So, if David grants his children some sort of immortality(by regen, or just making them that much durable in the first place) then he doesn't need to give them a "legend"(in time, inescapably, they will figure out for themselves if what they were told is true or not). On the other hand, he will have to indoctrinate his children one way or the other if he doesn't make them immortal - otherwise he will not be able to contain the quest for immortality, unless he bans technology(Promethean fire).

I think this movie has numerous intriguing possibilities, if one rejects the "march towards inevitable". The question is how will the money paying individuals decide.

"unless he bans technology(Promethean fire)."

This is a interesting point to raise, one i pondered about including in my ideas for a AC Sequel....  So its not beyond the realms of possibility if David does say raise Engineered Human Embryo's that he could have this Colony/Culture set up on a Part of the Planet were they Build their World with Simple Means, so that they would be living with Technology that was not available say a 1000 years ago.

A LITERAL Building of Cabins on a Lake and with some Religious/Cultist Element brought in then it could be like using some of the WOODEN World but instead of a Like Wooden Death Star....  have this to literally show a Colony that has Shunned Technology in favor of more simple Life.

We kind of get the idea the Planet 4 Engineers may have taken this route themselves...  

I wonder where David would have PARKED the Covenant, and surely at times he would go back and forth to where it was, it would be a Question of HOW and WHAT happens if those Colonist he Raised Discovered it?

I guess it would depend on WHAT David had told about the Covenant, its Mission and HOW those Colonist got there.. Off Course this means regarding Raising of Children or Engineered Embryos.... and not the Covenants Adult Occupants as they would be aware of all of this.

Could David had used the Technology to a Certain Point to Build his  Colony/Outpost and then SHUNNED and Abandoned the Technology?  There is so many ways to have explored what David does and what kind of a World would be Built.

Well, those engineers that visited earth way back when certainly had the technology. But they never shared it with humans - humans are not shown roaring the galaxy in alien tech ships.

So will David share some of his knowledge(even better if goes on building an advanced civilization) or he will make it stone-age, celibacy style society.

It would be funny though if engineers arrive at the planet to find out David replicate planet 4, except for humans instead of engineers in those robes.

I think thats the Interesting Question...

From the Engineers Perspective, they obviously kept us at only CERTAIN Level of Technological Advancement, not even to the LEVEL of the Planet 4 Engineers. (Not including the Juggernauts and Hanger).  It would be interesting to see WHY those Planet 4 Engineers do-not use the Technology, apart from Catering for Returning Engineer Ships.  Is this a Technology they are only Permitted to use for limited reasons as deemed by the HIERARCHY above the Engineers?  Or did they Shun Technology apart from where required (to visit other Worlds).   

So that would be like a Amish Community having a Few Wagons (Automobiles)  they only use AS/WHEN they venture away from their Community to bring in Supplies they Need that they dont GROW/HARVEST themselves?

I think the Engineers had a concern and Fear of what happens if Mankind was to be granted a Equal Footing to them Technologically and its SAFE to assume once they abandoned us, they thought we would never ADVANCE without their help....  They was WRONG.

I think David would have learned such things during his years spent after the Doomed Prometheus Mission, and so its a interesting Question of HOW MUCH Technology he would allow his Colonist to Possess.

What kind of a Culture David Builds could be Interesting, especially if he Creates a Civilization that go about as the Engineers intended for Mankind.

How would a Race of Would Be Gods... view David Creating Perfection compared to their Efforts (Deacon, Mankind) and what would the FACT that David can maintain Order and Worship when the Engineers so dearly Failed!

Do they gain a Respect for David?  Or do they become Bitter and Jealous of his PARADISE?

Abandonment.

Just so we do not misrepresent the 2012 Vision of the Engineers relationship with Mankind.

The Engineers continued to visit Earth right up until they were destroyed. Indeed one tablet suggests they came after but that may have been the result of embedded transmitted lore given they would not have offered their location after they were destroyed.

When Charlie speculated that they abandoned us on the night before his death he was unaware that they were intent on destroying us 2,000 years ago. That revelation would come mid afternoon the next day.

In philosophical terms they abandoned mankind because they decided for reasons, which Damon thinks are made in clear in the movie, to replace us with their own sub created species.

They never left us be they came taught implanted memories and then decided we needed to be replaced 2,000 years ago.

Given the technology of Earth circa A D it would not be plausible that they feared us, they simply wanted to replace us and the specific reason for having that view and their relationship to mankind is in the movie.     

Michelle J:

Nah, I don’t think that it is clear why they decided to abandon us. Lindelof (if that is his opinion on it) is wrong, there is no clear explanation to why they wanted to abandon us. One problem is that the movie is too vague about some things and that is one of them. My guess is that it could be because we started wars and treated the planet in a bad way even though that is not what the writers had as an explanation but I take it as bad writing and/or execution of it.

@Thoughts_Dreams

For the record it is completely clear to Damon Lindelof executive producer and writer and Ridley Scott director and Michelle Johnston viewer but not you and you are not alone. No worries.

What is left unclear is why they had that kind of relationship with their creations. Elizabeth understood the nature of the relationship but did not understand why they would have that view and whereas David believed it did not matter Elizabeth did primarily because it contradicted her faith view of creation. Both Ridley and Noomi expressed a view as to what that answer would be and that the answer would be even more challenging for Noomi. The key lay in Davids relationship with his creator as expressed in the film between David and Charlie.

In a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. They mean something, a tent pole audience is very bad at picking up those cues wanting "tell us what your going to tell us, tell us and tell us what you told us." a standard technique employed in presentational learning.

I will not provide the answer because it is something which I may or not have concluded applies to Prometheus Regained which several more people will shortly read. 

The movie(P & A:C) is very vague and is rather open ended which is why we still have talking points about the movie in 2018.

This also makes it rather silly for one to lay claim to know how it will all go down canonically in future with any certainty(should it ever even have one). Just raise hands how many of you predicted the faith of Shaw in A:C after having watched the P(and the salivating add-on sequence of A:C, the "crossing")? It sure took me by surprise, to say the least.

I would caution anyone to make definitive assertions on what is obvious and is rather common knowledge(and is supposedly implied by/and including seemingly implicit events in the movie) especially when one is interpreting subtleties and over analyzing some of the sequences or dialogs in the movies : while the dialogs themselves are explicit, their interpretations are not as definitive and plain. For instance, lots of people think the white room we see at the start of AC has a vista of the Prometheus seeding sequence. Is that so? If so, how certain is that? People might figure as follows: it can't be a coincidence that those picturesque views are mere chance events - they must be views of the same place in the movie. Indeed, they might be, but only for cost saving reasons - doing a CGI is actually costly (more so than shooting real things btw), so they might have reused some of the footage of P in AC, but without trying to make it seem as if Weyland had knowledge of what happened thousands of years ago and for that reason chose that view to have in his white room. So some might surmise that it was deliberately put so into the story, others might think otherwise. Another example : remember that deacon mural/carving at the back of the head in P? A lot of people surmised lots of things from that thing. But then it was told that the prop guys decided just to stick it there because they thought it was cool with no purpose as far as story telling goes.

So it is not all that quite plain when you are taking some things for certain. And it is even more questionable when you lay your own foundation for your story upon those already shaky assumptions.

Also, remember, that Ridley can change his mind, sometimes right in the middle of the movie. Or rather he can be swayed : just recall his annoyance at the suggestion that ALIEN fans wanted more of the beast on screen and his subsequent apparent frustration at this change when he said - "you wanted the alien, I will give you the f*cking alien". I love Ridley :) This bit rather suggested that he hadn't planned to have that alien in the movie but he caved. So it was changed, if not at the stage of principal photography but certainly somewhere between the pick-ups and the editing - ie, in the midst of producing the movie.

Phew...all this just to say that is not as linear and simple and definitive as it might look initially.

However, having the benefit of hindsight, this should be easy : lets take a rather coarse look and point out the underlying motives of the movie and its characters.

From the original P in the AC we only have one character continuing his own inquiry(if you can call it that) - David. All others are dead, because their major themes have been explored, done and dusted as far as movie makers are concerned.

*Weyland - dead, ultimate quest of Peter was immortality.

*Vickers - she is second rate, supporting character to Peter Weyland, which was only used to show us how ruthless and determined Peter was wrt to his quest of immortality. In fact he considered David to be closer to being his child(who is immortal) than his own biological daughter(who is mortal) - this again reinforces what Weyland wanted. Her role was to show us how Peter didn't want to die and become history. In fact her role was to cement precisely that : Peter wanted immortality above all else, so much so that she never got her head around what her father actually wanted - it was a surprise to her when her father rejected her plea( King has his reign and then he ... ).

*Shaw - is a jolly character that we were supposed to get behind. After all she was this plain Jane, with the traditional religious upbringing going on about her innocent research(the target audience people are targeted right here by her character) quest for discovery of her "noble" engineers and test if there is intelligent conception and what are they like. She had her mother and then father taken by quite unfortunate set of events. Plus she can't conceive and her friend is forsaken in a disturbing way. All this made her our main anchor point.

We soon learned that she was expecting more nobility from her makers than what she got. She died along with Charlie, who was another anchor(the non-religious, skeptical scientist) who was also rather secondary, a stepping stone. Charlie was all for adventure and ultimately he got what he wanted - he would give everything and anything(he didn't value his life like Weyland did - recall how easily he took off his helmet without any regard for his own safety) - so the dealer gave him a fair trial by science! - the goo was going to either evolve him (it did!) or kill him.

Btw, just a concurrent thought: what do you think would Weyland choose given a chance : either die of old age like he was going to anyway, or take the goo having the benefit of knowledge of what it did to Holloway?

Now, David, Shaw and Charlie had a sort of a love triangle going on which was supposed to give us more info on how David operated, on human level - it was supposed to show his affection, if he had any towards humans. He emphatically did - that is, for him humanity is not all bad - some(one) of them he even loved(in his own way).

With a shock, Shaw's story was ended abruptly. I suppose it is so because her story ended and movie makers were on a tight budget - her quest was to find out if there was an intelligent conception behind it all. But the inevitable and intriguing iterative question of Shaw(and us) of who created the makers of the makers is proven to be pointless to pursue by the movie makers(of course, this quest would completely derail all the ALIEN/Prometheus themes - nobody would care about the beast, Weyland, David and any of that any more) we get rather unpalatable resolution on one of the main characters.

Of course, instead we get Daniels and Tee as substitutes. I don't want to bother with other characters in A:C - they were there solely as canon fodder. Except for one point : again the movie makers take the piss out of the traditional religious followers in the sense that if you believe in providence, boy, you don't know where you are getting into. This is a second character of faith in P and AC that we are shown to be harrowed by the events in the movie and this can't be a coincidence now, can it? And the message is this : your traditional faith is not a good guide for galaxy exploration, you can have it if you like it but don't rely on it too much to bring you a happy outcome. If anything you better think that reality is much more cruel than what your dogmatic book tells you.

So in the end the algebra/balance is as follows : we only got David left from the original movie. Other characters are dead and expended and it is safe to say their quests are also explored.

But the quest of David is very very open. He was shown to appreciate some humans and not very fond of human vices.

He has potent technology at his disposal. He might instill a dogmatic view on his followers(religion!). Supposedly we also have other parties coming on : engineers with apparently revenge theme to explore(war is always a shrewd choice for money making it seems). We have a ship full of technology, humans and embryos in hibernation. It makes sense to consider and explore the topics of evolution of organic life and synthetic life, in different directions of singularity, ie: transhuman life: human soul in the body of bio/synthetic shell, AI having organic body and bio-chemical experiences - love, fathering an offspring(creation), genetic engineering and evolving humans.

These are hardly novel topics on their own, but do not be quick to discard the idea of exploration of these topics in the world of ALIEN universe. Hollywood already showed us that these artificial+organic characters in the past that have a lasting, passionate(money paying) following. Think of certain Anakin Skywalker - Darth Vader, he was half robotic at some point wasn't he? Think Alex Murphy the Robocop. Recall the Robocop vs ED209 action. One is half human the other is completely metal. Think (Cain) - ugh, what a nightmare was that. The point is this : people can get behind a good character, no matter if he was a human or not originally. I hope FOX are reading this: David still can turn out to be a good guy(read he can still make money) - he can redeem himself, if that is your thing: imagine if he is the fellow who stops engineers trying to carry out their original plan(wipe out earthlings) at the cost of his life. The story can progress in many unpredictable ways - in fact it is safe to assume that we again have a blank sheet of paper only with a certain and fixed beginning and uncertain, unfixed end. Btw, the end only needs to leave a clue as to who ends up as the big guy - that is to say, the fact that there is this notion of march towards to inevitable doesn't mean we can't get quite an intriguing, *open ended* movie.

In any case, the very fact that we are still having all these topics here shows that there is potential there. Alas, Ridley doesn't have a metal body.

@BioDegradable

I will not be responding to your post. I would appreciate it if you would not make any further remarks about my work. By offering Damon and Ridley's clearly stated view on why the Engineers wished to redact mankind in AD Zero might imply that is the view I have taken, I may or may not. My view is very simple its my view nothing more nothing less.

Many Thanks.

My original point was a simple one there was no period of abandonment merely abandonment by wanting to rescind.

Michelle Johnston

"if you would not make any further remarks about my work."

Are you not taking all this a bit too seriously - one, and two - please, remind us(me) since when does this board has some rules regarding "your work"? What is it that you claim to be your work anyway? In the context of this very thread(or board)? Quote the thing that upset you, where I supposedly made remarks about your work or even discussed your work. I hereby state that I am not interested in your works whatsoever. Never read it before and therefore never cared. Btw, do you consider your posts here as your work?

Your view is your view and nothing more, as is the view of Thoughts_Dreams just above or my own, indeed.

I just can't see how your passive aggressive call out is justified really.

PS: In fact, I would appreciate it whole lot more if you posted a critique, a logical argument, relevant and poignant enough wrt to the topic discussed.

"I would caution anyone to make definitive assertions on what is obvious and is rather common knowledge"

@BioDegradable

Certainly that is a big point, the Movies are a bit vague and open to interpretations and NO matter what Plan/Objective they had, things can CHANGE as they go along...   The Portrayal of the Engineers after we had Alien Covenant is different to a degree to what those Engineers were at the time of Alien Engineers, which changed somewhat by the Time Lindeloff came and re-worked the Plot.    We need only WONDER how many changes are made by the time Paglen, Green, Harper and Logan had made, certainly the Starting Point A (Paglen) to End Point Z (Logan) would have had a number of Plot Changes. 

I find it unlikely that at Point A which would have been somewhat a continuation of ideas Lindeloff and Ridley Scott had discussed.. would have led us to a Dr Shaw with so little Screen Time and a Xenomorph Created by David.. but this just shows how much things change.

We can all try and are entitled to our own oppinions and trying to figure out this and that, and have our own ideas of where it could or should have gone... but they are all a bit MOOT as far as what we eventually get which always comes down to what those who PAY $$$$ to Produce the Movies think is BEST.... hence the RS comment "they want $^$&%* Aliens i will give them £!$"%^£^ Aliens"

"For instance, lots of people think the white room we see at the start of AC has a vista of the Prometheus seeding sequence. Is that so? If so, how certain is that?"

Another fine example of how people can read into something thats not intended to mean anything too deep.. I believe the Scene, is just as with the Nativity Painting  its to connect to us that the Scene is about Davids Creation, the Nativity Painting is to show us that David just as Jesus is not a Traditional Human, he is different, Enhanced and Special.  The Backdrop that matches the Prometheus Sacrificial Scene is there to make a Connection, that this is about a CREATION Event.  Its Symbolic nothing more, nothing less... well IMO.... but it had lead some to speculate that Weyland must have been to Planet 4 or know exactly were we was Created From....

The Mural is another one.. in Prometheus.. it was not there to merely be COOL... it was there to in part be a Tribute to Giger, a Easter Egg and in part to contain some link so we can make a connection that the Xenomorph, and Engineers Experiments are connected.   It was vague, and many elements where never meant to have any deep connection, the Face Huggers/Engineers merely a Easter Egg, the Mural itself to bring some vague Xenomorph/Deacon connection that adds some Visual WOW to a Set... so yes to LOOK COOL.

Yet it has been a Topic of Hot Debate over the years... yet it merely could be a Red Herring... Ultimately it allows for many interpretations on how the Engineers, Xenomorph, Black Goo and Deacon are connected.   But regardless of how we all interpret these connections and the Mural, the Question has to be was there any real DEEP Reason for it and that seems to be NOT REALLY.

" Indeed one tablet suggests they came after"

Certainly Michelle, we never really get any explanation  to WHY we had later Star Maps after the Engineers Mission 2000 years ago went to POT.... it does allow us to think they must have came back... but WHY... this really is something maybe those working on the Project had any real explanation for..   So its open for Interpretation, and when i consider it i wonder if they ACTUALLY never Left?  I consider the Jesus Emissary Angle  IF this is a misinterpretation by Mankind... much as maybe Dr Shaws Faith is, and in Reality Jesus was a Emissary then could it be possible the Engineers sent Emissaries to other Continents, and maybe this is where the later Star Maps came from after the Engineers Abandoned us.

"They never left us be"

Indeed in a continuation of the previous reply... i think the Engineers had not abandoned us, as you said, they had intended to use the Black Goo on us... well those on LV-223 at very least...    The Interesting Question becomes after this FAILED... WHY had they not come back to Finish the Job?

We have to look at the Engineers on Planet 4 for that and ASK... did they know about our Creation and intended Destruction?  was those LV-223 Engineers creating us without the knowledge of those on Planet 4 (who are the Original Engineers). its all pretty open to debate.  We can maybe assume all the Engineers on LV-223 Died apart from that SURVIVOR...  So they did-not abandon us, they wanted to WIPE the Slate Clean... likely..

But the Big Question is where are the other Engineers and did they all share the same Idea/Intention for Mankind?  IF so then its likely after the Failed Attempt... those other Engineers Abandoned us and decided to leave us to ROT.. we are only ONE of maybe Many Worlds they seed Life and so they could leave us to Destroy ourselves and in their HUBRIS they would think we could NEVER advance to be a Threat without their HELP.

"Given the technology of Earth circa A D it would not be plausible that they feared us"

Certainly we can see there is NO reason to fear us at this stage, the Question is did some of them maybe Fear as we had become Sentient and Unruly and are close to the Engineers, that its the Knowledge/Technology we dont have that makes us NO threat... could they be concerned of what would happen if we GAINED this?  But its maybe likely the Engineers are so Naive and Arrogant that they feel without their Help, we would have just remained as Cave Men and so if they abandon us we cant ever evolve more than were we was at 2000 years ago... to a Great Hubris.

I feel this is one of the MAIN themes at play... Knowledge for if David was like Walter, then there would be no Threat or Xenomorph, if Lucifer was like the Angels there would be no Fall/Rebellion etc.   Ridley Scott said they created the Bio-Weapons (Engineers) as a means to Protect against Unruly Creations  and to Wipe Worlds Clean.

The Revelation about the Planet 4 Engineers being Originals, and RS comments about AI and how he sees the Replicants as a AI, has led me to ponder are those LV-223 Engineers similar to the Replicants... had they rebelled against the Planet 4 Engineers?  so could they have same concerns about their own Creations? 

Its down to what connection are the Planet 4 and LV-223 Engineers and which are connected to our Creation that could Answer this... its a case of is this something that would ever get explored or answered? 

"Both Ridley and Noomi expressed a view as to what that answer would be and that the answer would be even more challenging for Noomi. The key lay in Davids relationship with his creator as expressed in the film between David and Charlie."

That certainly is something i am drawn to, and maybe the revelation of our Creation, is not far from the revelation to come about the LV-223 Engineers and the Original Planet 4 ones, and who created them... and maybe we will see a Constant Pattern, and so the Answers to our Creation could be staring us in the face with David.

"in a low exposition narrative characters do not say things merely for the sake of it. "

Absolutely i think that the Dialog and what we hear or are told gives more clues to what Visually we are shown.  And some may pay more attention to the Visuals, yet these could be a Red Herring... and certainly a lot has changed Visually by what changes are made and cuts and alternative scenes.

It all comes down to personal Interpretation and the Beauty of Prometheus was it leaves it very open, were we can all have our own interpretations... indeed there was some kind of PLAN to how things may have gone, but we see things are constantly evolving.   The Plot Change to David creates the Xenomorph is a Prime Example.  Something that could be changed in response again to Fans not being HAPPY..

You brought excellent points, BigDave, about it all being a bit haphazard, mish-mash hodge-podge throw it to the wall kind of approach.

On reflection, having watched most of the behind scenes, documentaries, interviews you get to realize that these movies are made by numerous people, in non-linear fashion(with many revisions, sometimes radical) with lots of incompatible ideas thrown in, and it all has to meet lots of hard constraints - after all, it is an exercise in making profits. All of that manifests in a product that has lots of ambiguity(at best) and kinks in unexpected places.

Ultimately, it is the frustration of the viewer's expectation when the movie tells a disconcerted story, where a naive viewer expects a highly coherent, watertight story, something as worked out as a mathematical theory over decades, that rewards inquisitive and diligent mind for his attention ... but in the end gets something full of unpleasing holes. The Q is : "Who is to blame?". I figured out, admittedly a bit late, over time, that it was me filled with unreasonable expectations: it is actually highly naive to expect a sci-fi movie tell an accurate story of human conception(origin story of the universe itself). And knowing at this point the recipe how most movies are made, I can't really blame movie makers either for their choices going for ambiguity. Because it is far cheaper to leave things underspecified, rather than building overly detailed micro-world. This approach is also risk averse : what if your effort doesn't get noticed(rewarded) and yet you put too much in effort & budget and in time into details? You hardly will get a second chance as a director. On a plus side, if you tell a concise story, perhaps underspecified(vague) you can't really run into inconsistencies - the story is too short to contradict itself at some point. With ambiguity(and some silliness), all you risk is causing a bit of confusion for your viewers (and apparently some ramblings about the "work" they can come up with. I was almost literally told "look at my works ye mighty and despair").

All this is supposed to be common knowledge. But it is hard to decide beforehand as to how much you should be raising your expectations with these movies. Ridley is generally excellent director - he picks his movies wisely. And his ALIEN movies have generally been very very good in that respect. Certainly, well done.

Now I should go back and try and figure out why those engineers did what they did :)

I won't - their mystique is as intriguing as nature of Jerry's disrespect of a famous cat Tom. Engineers are intriguing because they are the embodiment of the unknown, our mental projections of what unknown stands for and as such attracts and intrigues us. It is a brilliant trick by movie makers. They exploited the notion of bewilderment that phrase "if you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you" induces on a thoughtful person. Bravo. I should perhaps say at this point : don't do it, unless you have unlimited life span :)