Are the Eggs on LV-426 Still There?

I think the MAIN thing is what they Intend to show us, as a lot can be put down to OVERSIGHT and No Matter how much a Conflict that may seem, we maybe are NOT supposed to look at it in Detail.

Prior to the Prequels it was Pretty Much up for Debate..

*Part of the Ship

*Underground Storage Facility

Doubt any or many had a idea about a Detachable Cargo Compartment so lets RULE that out (in Light of the Length of the Cargo Storage being what 400-600M) But then this could be said about it NOT being a Part of the Ship in Light of this...  Smoking Gun!

So the MAIN thing really is what they INTEND and any Inconstancy we have to ACCEPT as Oversight... or we can use it to put our MIND and Opinion at Peace.

Back Prior to the PREQUELS we had one of TWO Options.

1) The Derelict was Carrying its Cargo and the Pilot was Infected and he had SET down a Course to Quarantine the Cargo on a near by  Baron Moon (we can only Speculate where the SHIP had come from and where it was Going).

2) The Derelict was Docked with a Underground Storage Facility and the Pilot was Infected while he was either Transporting something to the Storage Facility, or attempting to take something from the Storage Facility.

The Second Option is NOT what Ridley Scott had intended and explained for Many Years now... but it does-not have to Contend with the Dilemma that the Egg Chamber is TOO LARGE to be Part of the Ship.

By going for Option 2 what we have is that LV-426 has a Very Large Underground Facility, is this the ONLY ONE?

The PREQUELS had kind of Muddy the Waters a bit, Ridley Scotts explanation (off screen) seemed to indicate the Derelict had LEFT the LV-223 Outpost but only got as FAR as LV-426 before the Pilot was Chest Busted.

If the Derelict was intended to be similar to the Juggernauts then if they have a similar LAY-OUT then there is NO-WAY the Juggernaught would have a Cargo Hold like shown in ALIEN underneath it.

If we accept Option 2 at this Time (2012) then you could Speculate that the Juggernauts would USED to either..

a) Take the LV-223 Experiments to Store on LV-426

b) Take the Eggs from LV-426 to LV-223 to be Experimented on.

The BIG PROBLEM... if we Accepted Option 2 is ALIEN COVENANT...

Within 17.5 Years we have to have David do what ever Shenanigans he is going to do, but then to what Discover on LV-426 a Empty Storage Facility to then take his EGGS in Many Many Thousands?  And Transport them from A-B (where B is the Underground Facility) the Underground Facility would have to already be there RIGHT?

Because to have David also Construct Such a Facility within that Period would sound VERY VERY VERY Unlikely.

In Context to the OT...

If we Accept Option 2 then it is POSSIBLE that some Eggs would surely be Salvageable from the Underground Facility.

However.... Inconsistency aside... i think the PLAN would have been and still LIKELY would be that the Derelict was Carrying the Cargo of Eggs and was either Leaving LV-223 or Heading Towards LV-223 before the Pilot began to go through the Process of knowing he was about to Give Birth to a ALIEN!

The CULPRIT really being the Length that the Cargo Hold appears to be going around in the Kane scene that used the Matt Painting Back Ground.

BigDave

Just to be absolutely clear the Urn Room and the Bridge in Prometheus are the same set. 

That stage is a maximum of 15 metres high and if you watch the Furious Gods segment where Jon Sphaits visits and several other stills of the set you can see the practical set takes us right to the top of the Concave Walls and the head is above that with a gap of about 2 meters to the roof of the building. This makes the actual Headroom and the Actual Bridge with a CGI 'cap' over the top about 18 metres.

hox

In A L I E N the cargo bay/cave is directly underneath the bridge. 

In Covenant, the cargo bay is directly under the bridge. 

So for me, Prometheus with the Cargo Bay in the next segment to the left as you look at the Horseshoe feels contrived for theatrical reasons wonderful as it is.

To be honest I am not wired with the need to find more to it than each time Ridley makes a film with a Juggernaut he changes the design to suit the needs of his story. He has done exactly the same with the Engineers except in that case its budgetary restraints that lead to the look of the Engineers in Covenant. What I do know is for the general audience it's not helpful.   

BigDave

My view of ambiguity is quite different from yours for two reasons.

1) To me, they are distractions from themes, story and character. Arthur Max puts it perfectly for me you can have all the clever designs you like but what you need is story and character. 

2) Ridley storyboards and makes the narrative fit the storyboards. For a single movement story that is fine but one of Ridley's failings with this sequence of films is he takes his audience out of the story by having so much inconsistency and either causes watcher fatigue or endless debates. If you complete a multi-movement story it has to be symphonic with themes and ideas recurring to gain your commitment and gives the story more emotional weight.

When I wrote my rule book for my work I knew the design of the Juggernaut before I started. Some might argue it is restricting to be tied down I found it liberating and it can lead to more invention. Just one example

Bridge on the upper level with the Cargo Bay directly below it.

As the party approaches the pilot chamber David takes them directly to the upper level avoiding the cargo bay of Urns making the parties reaction more plausible they do not react because they do not see them. Equally, Elizabeth in warrior mode pulls back and takes the alternative entrance and discovers the Urns and relays the feed to Janek one on one. She holds back listens to David whilst he pontificates and then emerges confronts him and that knowledge gained by subterfuge underwrites naturally her intervention with the woken dark angel where she is clearly operating alone and so much so that Weyland threatens to have her shot if she utters another word.

The Juggernauts could have all been different because they are organically grown rather than designed and that may even have story potential but in this instance all the visual clues and the story point to many craft that are externally identical and painstakingly so. Equally, you could tell a story where they are Bio-Mechanically fabricated and corralled what matters is not which idea you pursue but what storytelling value it has not what discussion value it has for a confused audience.

To conclude and its the point I made above the very things people discuss endlessly here are the very things that put a cap on the broader audience wanting more.      

I said before i had a IDEA on how the Cargo Hold could Snake around the Ship, but this IDEA is a bit Moot Considering these.

*My Scale Height would mean the Whole Derelict would have to be 40ft Taller.

*To the Same Scale the Cargo Hold Sections and Number of them would Require the Derelict to be 2-3X Wider.

However here is my Explanation that i think Works apart from SIZE!

"Just to be absolutely clear the Urn Room and the Bridge in Prometheus are the same set"

The Estimates and Calculations i was presenting are regarding the ALIEN Set and not Prometheus, sorry i should have made that more Clear ;)

But regardless, it does show in both cases that Ridley Scott likes to try and Recycle Sets to Save on Money and Time and that there is NO point in Building Extra Height or Parts of the Set that can be added by CGI..  The Big Head Statues in Alien Covenants room the Hall of Heads were likewise only a % as the Rest would be added by CGI.. which i think is the Point you was raising which is VERY Valid. (in Relation to Sets).

"Bridge on the upper level with the Cargo Bay directly below it."

Totally Agree it is what makes Sense, and the Concepts seemed to Indicate the Main Entrance would be Accessed at a Level that was about Half-Way of the Height of the Ship.  I think they made a Error with the Hologram Map Scene, they should have had the Corridors at a Higher Level.

And so Michelle you are Correct Ultimately as far as in the END such Inconsistency will NOT matter as all that matters is what the Director Chooses would be ideal to FIT the Purpose for the Story/Plot they are trying to Tell and so Changes to the Aesthetics and Dimensions can be Changed to Suit....   And so IF and WHEN we get any Conclusion the Fans have to Accept what is shown and any Contradictions or Discrepancies would be just Oversight.

PS... i like your changes regarding the Crew of the Prometheus walk above the Cargo Holds and Dr Shaw discovers them Separately, i think that would have WORKED so much better ;)

"He has done exactly the same with the Engineers except in that case its budgetary restraints that lead to the look of the Engineers in Covenant."

I felt the same and was Puzzled as Budget Wise it would NOT have Cost a lot to have Black Eye Contacts and a bit more Paint/Make Up...  But it was the Comments by Ridley Scott that these Engineers (Planet 4) are the Originals and then when looking at some of the Themes and how RS had said the Replicants are AI... then to me i think maybe the IDEA is that those LV-223 Engineers are like the Engineers versions of Replicants and so the LV-223 Engineer had more in Common with David. Thats how i Interpret it... maybe we will NEVER find out though.

Well, the problem of having the pilot room in middle hight and the cargo hold under it is that the three openings would lead into it and the pilot chair would come down through the roof of it when not used. This is only possible if the area which Kane descends into is MUCH smaller or we are dealing with different kinds of juggernauts.

Anyway, I think that the view that the Derelict is connected to the outbreak on LV-223 is preferable (no David involved) but that an underground area filled with eggs (which might have been there even before the Engineers got there) tickles imagination . . .

chli

Spot on about the chair and the area where Kane descends into.

There are two points to this discussion:-

1) How do we interpret what we see which was the point of your posting?

2) Is it a relevant concern to each one of us?

My view on this subject that Ridley filmed a huge subterranean area which as the years went by became the Cargo of the derelict. That the matter is not forensically logical does not give me any concern nor I need to come up with plausible tenuous logic.

Quite separately from my view of the movies for my own vision I decided the consul, chair, propulsion and the origins of the craft can be wound into all the main character and story themes and all the design considerations feed into the story. 

Gentlemen

Finally on the entrances.

On the original model, the vulva like entrance is at floor level and three circular elements almost at mid heights.

In Prometheus, the vulva entrances are considerably higher and D and E rappel down from the Vulva entrances at bridge level which would contradict the hologram images the Prometheus received with the heat signatures. (BD's point)

I kept with the original external design the Vulva entrances take you into the Cargo Bay you then in the standard variant climb a ships ladder (homage to Kane) on to the Bridge and the three circular elements are an emergency escape entrance and escape pods from the bridge. I found climbing ships ladders to the various levels communicated scale which works well in A. but is not there in P.    

@BigDave, in the picture at the top of this thread, there is a tunnel in the far distance that snakes off to the left. It appears to have quite a lot of light coming from it. Any thoughts as to how that can be?

The whole (very large) thing is probably most easily explained by it being an underground cave complex that the ship is sitting on. But... here's one for your abacus!... if the inside of Dr. Who's Tardis can be a lot bigger than the outside, maybe the ship can be, too.

@hox

This is the Quickest thing to get out of the way, Certainly they could explain those who had Built/Created the Derelict have some kind of Technology that is like what the TARDIS used, i have suggested this a few times over the Years, such a Revelation would be a Convenience to the Plot/Discrepencies, its a case of would FANS start to say its NOT Original and is just going to RIP off Dr Who and be a Lazy Explanation... but its a Easy Explanation that would END any debates about the Size of the Hold and HOW it can not be part of the Ship...   and so i cant see WHY NOT as far as the Derelict having similar Technology.

@chli

I dont think its Impossible for the Pilot Chair to Retract into a PIT of Sorts....  Kane Descended right on the Edge of the Platform and he could have Descended at a Angle, or a way around could be like in this IMAGE.

@Michelle

Certainly the Vulva Openings in Prometheus seem to be about 28ft Total, in Alien they appear to be 20-22ft. The Entrances (bottom of Vulva's) seem to Start about 12ft off the Base of the Derelict (in Alien Rocks Obscure this) with Prometheus Juggernaut they appear to be about 20ft off the Ground.

These Entrances are still quite a bit Lower than the Mid-Section of the Ships, but with Prometheus we are shown the MAIN Entrance to the Juggernaut appears to be at what we would think is the REAR but turns out to be the Front.

What seems Strange is the Pilot Room seems Directly behind where that Entrance would be and so WHY does it seem the Prometheus Crew Enter at a Different Area?

I think as with ALIEN and the Entering the Ship Scene we are maybe NOT shown every Step they take on Film, but with Prometheus it would seem there is NOT much of a Walk from the Cargo Hold to the Bulkheads/Front of the Juggernaught.

And so looking at the Image it does-not make much Sense.. it must be the Entrance does-not Directly take you to the Pilot or Cargo Rooms, but it would Snake Around a bit...

So i have tried to think where the Prometheus Crew would have Entered and Walked to the Pilot Room, i then also Pin Pointed where the Covenant Crew would have Entered, which INDEED was a Bottom Layer as they Ascended up to get to the Pilot Chamber, but it seemed they also Descended at a Point too.

I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar.

However with the Juggernauts they appear to have Different Internal Layouts... this is a Error, but it is LIKELY done for the reasons you mentioned Michelle...

While we can Wonder otherwise WHY it seems they never paid attention to MATCH the Ships (Prometheus/Alien Covenant) there is NO reason why Internally the Ships can Differ, as a Example some of the Larger Aircraft that we have can be Same Model but Internally they are laid out Differently due to performing different Tasks.

Also who is to say the Engineers Technology means the Ships Internal Structure can Morph to Desired requirements for a Given Task.

In Closing.....

I have to agree with what you had USED in your work on Prometheus as far as the Ship should have had Cargo Holds to a Lower Level than the Pilot Chamber.

I was thinking the other day about some of the Images i made, and how its HARD to Judge due to Camera Angle of the Cargo Hold, so i made this Image to Estimate how many Section of the Egg Storage Chambers would FIT along the Width of the Derelict.

This ONLY shows that to Scale it would NOT Fit, but that does-not mean that it CAN or WILL only be explained as a Underground Storage Facility/Silo.

It could be just a matter of Accepting its OVERSIGHT or maybe we could Accept the Technology of the Cargo Hold is similar to that of the TARDIS from Dr Who?

Until we have a Conclusion to the Prequels that would Directly show us the Ship and Cargo Hold and WHERE/WHAT it is...  or UNTIL we have another Movie that Re-Visits the Derelict then its still OPEN to Debate unless we ACCEPT the Explanation that Ridley Scott has given and then Accept its a Oversight.

EDIT:

I will add that taking into account the Arms and Curve of the Ship then IF the Ship was 40ft Higher, then the Ship would FIT about 10 of those Egg Sections. But for this to WORK then it would mean the SHOT from ALIEN would have to ONLY show 3-4 Sections in that SHOT... i assume we can see AT LEAST about 10 Sections.

So a 40ft Taller Derelict that is 2-3X Wider would FIT the Cargo Hold...  

Thank you for the analysis, BigDave. I suppose we can't come any further than this. What is good is that another alien movie could go either way.

It would be acceptable that the movie had as a premise that it is, in fact, an underground facility which a group enters after digging up the Derelict from the devastation from the nuclear explosion.

It would, of course, also be possible to accept that the eggs are in a cargo hold in the Derelict.

But this topic was actually about whether the eggs are still there . . . :)

"I think what we have to Remember is the Derelict and Juggernaut are TWO Different Ships and so we CANT expect the Dimensions and Layout to be Similar."

@BD

If I may I would like to unpack this statement. 

If you were making a presentation to a group of prop movie design workers your statement is indeed correct. The way the props were made in 1978 and then 2011 was not signed off on the basis of forensic similarity.

However, in terms of the story being told the derelict/juggernaut relationship is exactly the same as the jockey/engineer relationship. We as an audience should take them as the same.      

Here is why.

In the furious gods documentary, it is made very clear when they are replicating and when they are trying to be different. No one ever mentions making the Juggernaut smaller for the simple reason there is no reason to. It's considered to be the same craft.

To give a contra example they very deliberately evolved the design of the craft above the waterfall from originally being a Juggernaut to something different, it's in the Pre Viz, but when they decided that the Waterfall incident and its participants were separated by millions of years from the Moon guys and had a different agenda they went for something radically different.       

There is one final piece of evidence originally the craft that fell out of the sky was the derelict and there is no evidence they changed the design when the story was altered.

So your right it's not an identical prop but in story terms its the same craft with some internal modifications. Like the Derelict its a bomber just with a different Cargo.  

chli

As to your question are the Eggs still there the answer is its 2019 so Yes. (haha)

As to whether they will be there deep in the future. I think in the profoundly dysfunctional world of A L I E N I do not think mankind will ever learn its lesson. But in the even-handed world of P R O M E T H E U S, I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict.     

@chli,

The answers to the op really boil down to three answers...

#1 - Yes - If the derelict somehow avoided destruction from the atmosphere processor explosion, or if the eggs are indeed within a separate structure.

#2 - No - If the derelict was destroyed and the eggs were within the derelicts cargo hold.

#3 - If another movie chooses to return to LV-426 then it all depends upon what the studio/writer decides.

But IMO I still believe that if they do return to LV-426 the eggs should be contaminated forcing 'the powers that be' Weyland-Yutani?) to look elsewhere for more sources of the Xenomorph.

@Chli

I apologize for  taking it OFF TOPIC, i was going to make a New Topic or look at another that discussed the LIKELIHOOD or NOT that the Cargo Hold would FIT inside the Derelict, but i noticed this Topic was more Active and Debated such things, as in Relation to the OT.

So with what i had done is to INDEED conclude that Forensically we should be looking at a UNDERGROUND Storage Facility and as such if this is the CASE then in Context to the OT... I think the Potential for their being something Salvageable after the Destruction of Hadleys Hope is Greatly Increased if we have a Underground Facility, compared to the Less Likely chance of Salvaging anything if the Cargo Hold was on-board the Derelict.

@Michelle

Certainly in Terms of the Story, i think its a case of Accepting what they are showing us and Inconstancy would have to be merely a Oversight..  The Derelict and Juggernaut are intended to be Similar they form a Purpose for Carrying Loads of Various Bio-Logical Warfare and so Internally they can be Configured different from Ship to Ship, also likely the Derelict could have been a Older or Newer Model but looking back prior to Alien Covenant you would be drawn to Conclude the Derelict was a Older Model that has been Stranded on LV-426 for a Long Long Time.  And so with the Image Below it could be a case of Same Purpose, just Newer Model and so there would be some Atheistic Differences, but as FAR as the Purpose and Internals then they are supposed to Perform a Similar/Same Task.  And rightfully so with what you mention, we should maybe NOT be drawn too much in Specifics and Differences as they are for the Story Purpose intended to be Very Similar, because they would NOT effect the Overall Plot/Story.

@Michelle

In Follow up to your Last Reply.. 

"I think someone will follow Janek's C.O. and destroy the Derelict"

I think this is VERY Plausible and a Avenue for a Book or Movie, as i mentioned a Few Times before that in ALIENS the Derelict Damage to me does-not look like its from any Natural Event, and so it could be a Attempt was made to DESTROY the Derelict that did-not do the JOB.

@Gavin

Indeed a Avenue could be to Explore a Salvage of the Cargo and WHAT would become of Contaminated Cargo from Radiation...   Some of the Newer Concept Works for Blomkamps Alien 5 do show signs of Mutations and so this could be the Result of a Contaminated Cargo after the Hadleys Hope Destruction, or Experimentation.

And so that leaves it OPEN to explore a Movie that goes back to the Derelict Post 2179 but prior to 2379 and so in Context to the OT its a case of is there anything to Salvage and what Condition are any Eggs that Remain.

"In ALIENS the Derelict Damage to me does-not look like its from any Natural Event"

I must admit, when I saw the Aliens Special Edition, where we got to see the derelict in poor condition, I thought to myself that the ship had been there for an absolute age, yet in the space of a few short years since Alien it was oddly falling to pieces.

On the other hand, we're dealing with completely alien technology here. If the ship was biomechanically 'grown' or replicated, whatever you want to call it, maybe it can in a sense also 'die' under certain circumstances.

Michelle

Well, if David’s behind the eggs, then they are not there in 2019. :)

hox

It’s an interesting idea that a juggernaut perhaps can die (like a vegetable without nourishment).

BigDave

It’s possible that someone has tried to destroy the Derelict (because of its dangerous cargo). The crew of the Anesidora were there about 15 years after the crew of the Nostromo. Perhaps others as well?

Russ and Anne Jordan enter the Derelict through a gash in the Derelict's arm. Was it there when the group from the Nostromo were there? They enter through one of the three holes in the centre.

These "doors" were open, by the way, as if the crew had been in a hurry to get out. As the team from the Nostromo looks at the Space Jockey, Lambert says: "What happened to the rest of the crew?" Perhaps there were more Engineers on the ship and they fled from a xenomorph attack and succumbed somewhere on LV-426?

chli

I thought you would enjoy the joke as you are avowdly in the camp that if David is the Jockey with his cargo of Eggs from the Covenant sleepers it would be tosh. 

BigDave

You use the word oversight a lot when you are dealing with inconsistencies. Implying the designers and filmmakers have overlooked the differences. I don't think they have it's just they think the connections they make are strong enough and viewer suspension deals will the rest and whatever they change is for story values.

Less you think I am suggesting you are in a minority of one I have noted all deep fan sites of film franchises are preoccupied with the same issues and people become very rude about those responsible for these oversights but thats mankind for you fragmented, angry and adversarial.  

I don't believe for one minute that the prop/set designers took their creations far beyond what is seen on camera. For example, I imagine that Ridley quickly sketched out an oddly profiled tunnel where the explorers in Alien check out the derelict. It looks good and weird in and of itself. The set constructors didn't need to worry themselves about where in the ship that tunnel was. Similarly, when it came to showing the egg chamber, a glorious expansive cave is all we need to see on screen. It might be an underground,  cavern or deep in the belly of the ship. It doesn't really matter, so long as it looks good (and plausible).

Inconsistencies in what is shown are certainly oversights, but perfectly understandable ones. I don't suppose that any of the designers imagined that 40 years later, we'd be nit-picking about it on something called 'the internet'.