David Did Not Create the Xenomorph (Part 2)

BigDave

As fans, I think we need another movie to conclude this epic saga. Like Sauron or Darth Vader, the Devil (David) is now at the height of his power. He is set free. With his army of “wolves” he can destroy mankind and what else kind of “intelligent” life there is in the galaxy/universe. There would have to be some kind of apocalypse where Satan is overthrown and put into chains again.

@chli However Sauron and Darth Vader are not the Devil in those stories. Morgoth (literally the first born and most puwerful angel-like Ainur, the creator of the Balrogs and the orcs) and Palpatine are. Sauron in the Lord of the Rings is not at his most powerful he was already defeated, lost his physical form and only reappears as a spirit-like presence at the end of the Third Age. And one could argue that Vader was the most powerful in Revenge of the Sith before being mutilated and burnt.

ignorantGuy

Sauron was merely used as a symbol in a battle between good and evil. Sauron would have taken over Middle Earth if the ring hadn't been destroyed (and mankind would have fallen). David now has the ring (the wolves) . . .

chli Look both sides of good and evil in LotR are less than they were and Humanity has already fallen during the second age when they failed to destroy the ring. The book permeates the feeling that if the great heroes of the past would have been alive current Sauron wouldn't stand a chance.

Even now the good guys fail and the world is saved by luck or Divine intervention that Gollum rips Frodo's finger with the Rig off and falls into the mountain. Evil will always be and will always corrupt.

David is just a delusional @$$-hole.

Concerning the discussion about whether David created the xenomorph (the eggs found by the crew of the Nostromo on LV-426), here's an image of the distances between the places of interest. It's 18 years between the happenings in Alien: Covenant and Alien.

Where did this MAP come from?

I am not sure that we had been given any Co-Ordinates to Origae-6 but that System (Xi Aurigae) would maybe match the Journey Time of the Covenant if we consider Earth to Planet 4 took say 10-12 Months.

Using this Star Chart from say around when David likely send the Advent in Early Jan 2105, the Co-Ordinates of where he sent the Message falls within the same area as Zeta 2 Reticuli but this is the View from Earth, and it only indicates they are located within the same area of our Night Sky, it does-not mean that Planet 4 is 39-40 Light Years away.

The Covenant had 7 More Re-Charges before Origae-6 which would take 7 Years 4 Months to Reach, thats 88 Months.  That means before the Covenant has to make a 8th Re-Charge would mean that Origae-6 from Planet 4 would be 11 Months per Re-Charge....  so 7 Recharges at 11 Months apart would mean that last Re-Charge may JUST get to Origae-6,  if it was 10  Months per Recharge than 7 Re-Charges then they would Need to Recharge for a 8th time 8 Months away from Origae-6, if it was 12 Months per Re-Charge then they would arrive at Origae-6 with 8 Months Charge Left (if my Math is Correct).

so 11-12 Month Charge Cycles would be a Guess, If i am wrong, then i am a bit off i would say its still 10-12 Months Per Charge.

We dont know how FAR Planet 4 is only that it is not far in the Night Sky away from Zeta 2 so if we say 40 Light Years Give or Take then the Covenant would be in about the Same Ball Park as the Nostromo as far as SPEED.

So i estimate we talking a 40-50 Light Year Per Year Speed.     So it would mean that Origae-6 is about 330 Light Years from Planet 4 +/- 35 Light Years

So from Earth we could be looking at about 340-400 Light Year Ball Park...  But this is just a Rough Guess and my Calculations could be way off LOL

I think unless there has been any Official or Covered in Books indication to what system Origae-6 is, then all we can go by really is that it is 88 Months away from Planet 4, and its like the Covenants Total Journey Time from Earth would have been 96-102 Months. (does the Origins Novel give a Date of Departure?).

I think the only thing to consider really is that indeed we are say 17.5 years from Alien and IF those Eggs are from Davids Creation then if the Process of those Eggs becoming the Ones in ALIEN happens on Planet 4 then we are left about 17.5 years to play with, if they are Evolved on LV-223 then this would surely give David a few weeks/months less.

But IF he goes to Origae-6 then he has 10 years to get them from Origae-6 to LV-426/223 which Logically means the Derelict must be on/arrive at ORIGAE-6 at some point during those 10 years.

As we could safely assume from Origae-6 to LV-223 would eat up another 7.5 years or so of that remaining 10 year period.

That DOES-NOT leave much time to FIT in the Plot of HOW/WHEN those Eggs get on the Derelict considering the Ship Does-Not look like its only been there for Months!

I think i recall from somewhere that the Draft (which i have not read/found yet or bothered to) to a Earlier Alien Covenant/Crossing had Origae-6 as located about 250LY from Earth.

Taking that more into account then Xi Aurigae or 42 Aurigae could be ideal contenders for Origae-6  but so could 60 Aurigae and HD 34790

The Covenant crew awakens on December 5, 2104, a couple of weeks from Planet 4. So David probably sends the Advent message in January 2105 and he sets the course for Origae-6.

To Origae-6 and back again to the vicinity of Planet 4 would take about 15 years (with USCSS Covenant). To get from Planet 4 to LV-426 would take more than 3 years (it took 2,2 years to reach LV-223). That would make 18+ years (without any time at all on Origae-6).

David would then reach LV-426 (with a stopover at LV-223 to get a juggernaut) somewhere at the beginning of 2123. The Nostromo’s dropship sets down on LV-426 on July 3, 2122. David would, therefore, miss the party . . .

@ chli,

Sorry to nitpick, but June, not July 3rd, 2122, is When the Nostromo's crew was awoken in Alien.

The problem with figuring out and applying real-world science to most science fiction is that most science fiction uses science as superficial gloss or techno-babble icing.

Take Aliens for example. Hicks at one point says that they can expect a rescue in 17 days. Which would mean that the USS Sulaco was due to be back by a set date - let's say within a week? If the Sulaco has still failed to return 3 days after its scheduled return another Colonial Marine vessel would then be dispatched and arrive at LV-426 a week after it left Earth.

That much thought is likely more than what was applied to the "17 days" inclusion of the script. The arbitrary number of 17 days was plucked from thin air to highlight the helpless nature of the predicament the marines were in. Nothing more.

Yes, we can try to add real-world science to things, but that way madness lies. And remember that we are adding real-world science to a franchise that somehow possesses artificial gravity, Faster-The-Light space travel without time dilation, and hypersleep stasis technology that slows down the aging process. 

You make a Spot On Point Gavin ;)

I really have to find where i put the Origins Novel, i had it but misplaced it (not read it too), but as far as i am aware the events happened about a year before the events of the Covenant arriving at Planet 4

I have tried a few Maps and there is NOTHING really as far as Star located at RA 3h 17m 8.0s Dec -62° 37 

Closest i could come to was to Zoom on near the Reticuli System.

Marked where Zeta 1 and Zeta 2 are, the BLUE Dot is a location that Matches where David sent the Advent Message from, which is RA 3h 17m 8.0s Dec -62° 37' but there are NO Stars at this Location... The closest TWO which i have marked in RED as A and B are.

A:  USNOA2 0225-00827988  03h17m27.85s/-62°36'15.1"

B:  USNOA2 0225-00825316  03h16m52.03s/-62°36'50.7"

Both in the Constellation Reticulum  but we have to remember this is the location in the SKY and TWO objects could be close in the Sky but further away from each other than say the 5th nearest object to the Objects in Question.

So we cant work out exactly HOW far Planet 4 is, but if we consider the Re-Charge Cycles it seems they are between 10-12 Months, and the Origins Novel was set a year prior to Alien Covenant and so Planet 4 would be within about 10-12 Months Travel from Earth for the Covenant which makes the Ship in about the Same Ball Park as the Nostromo as far as Speed (Nostromo likely being a little faster).

So we can assume that for the Covenant we can say Origae-6 is about 88 Months from Planet 4, while to Planet 4 is about 10-12 Months from Earth.

David will arrive on Origae-6 about April 2112 and if he was to leave right away (which dont make sense) and head to LV-223 we can assume he would arrive there about September 2119 give or take.

This means that LEAVES us with a Period of 30-32 Months (give or take) to take into account Time David Spends on Origae-6, Time Spent around the Zeta 2 System, and then Time the Derelict is on LV-426 when the Nostromo Turns up.

It is HIGHLY likely that IF we are to assume the Path Ridley Scott sets out where David is the Creator of the Xenomorph that leads to those Eggs on the Derelict.

1) David arrives at Origae-6 about April/May 2112, there he goes about what ever business he does and what kind of a world he would Build/Create.

2) A Number of years Pass and a incoming 1/2 Human Ships turn up over a period of Short Time (Span of a Movie) then the Engineers Rock Up!

3) One of the Engineer Ships that turn up to Origae-6 will at some point leave that system and head to Zeta 2 Reticuli

4) This Ship would either have the Cargo of Davids Eggs and be heading to LV-223 but ENDS up on LV-426, or this Ship will reach LV-223 and maybe Experiment/Evolve Davids Creation and then attempt to leave LV-223 but only get as far as LV-426.

Leaving a Few Years then before the Nostromo Turns Up!

There would be about a 10 Year Period for Points 1-4 to FIT in.  And Ridley Scott indicated that from when Covenant Ends to when Alien Starts he intended another 2-3 Movies.  Thats a Hard Push!

I would not be too Concerned as i think its Highly Likely we will NOT get a Answer to those Eggs, unless any NEW Alien Movie provides any information.... because i think any Continuation to Alien Covenant would be on INDEFINITE Hold!

And by the Time they offer one, or provide a Explanation in a Movie set around or after the time of ALIEN, then i think they would do another U-TURN and have those Eggs NOT be a Creation of Davids to Please Fans who are Up in Arms over it.

I would say a High% of Fans are displeased with that Direction of David is the Creator.

In order for David to make it in time to LV-426, a juggernaut must turn up (on Origae-6). On Origae-6, David will build his “Eden” with his “Queen”. There would be no point in going to LV-223 or LV-426 since they are uninhabitable. The 2000 colonists know nothing of David’s rebellion but Daniels and Tennessee do (or will figure it out) so they are dead (experimented on).

So, in order to accomplish things within the time frame, a juggernaut is needed. However, it took David and Shaw about a year to reach Planet 4 from LV-223, so how fast is the juggernaut? It would seem it’s about three times as fast as human spaceships at the time. Anyhow, it would give David some time to build an army of “wolves” (in order to destroy everything in the galaxy) before the cavalry arrives (Engineers, Colonial Marines).  :)

"There would be no point in going to LV-223 or LV-426 since they are uninhabitable."

I think it all depends on WHAT is Davids Agenda.. we certainly on a Prequel Route would have to arrive at THOUSANDS of Eggs on LV-426 and at the Moment  we know David has JUST the TWO small Face Hugger Embryos... can these lead to Thousands?  On Planet 4 there are a number of Small Eggs, can these Grow?  And in that Room where those Large Eggs are it appears there are  8-11 Remaining... again can these lead to Thousands?

So the Question is HOW do those Thousands of Eggs get Created.....  Bare in Mind it cant be via Pure Coincidence that the Derelict is within the System or LV-223/426, so there must have been some Purpose for the Ship to either be heading to LV-223 or Leaving LV-223 that is connected to the Mass of Eggs...  they are either being taken in Thousands to LV-223 for Study/Re-Engineering or that a Smaller Number had been taken to LV-223 for Re-Engineering and Mass Production.

Assuming the without David's Experiments on Planet 4 there would be NO Eggs on LV-426 route.

Regarding how long it took to get to Planet 4, on one hand the Engineers seem to be able to Travel to other Galaxies and so Earth to LV-223 should be just a SHORT Hop! but then on the other hand, we have to ask WHY they use Cryo-Sleep Pods.

I think One Element that is Overlooked is that The Covenant Arrives nearly 12 Months after Dr Shaw leaves her Warning about LV-223.  We see at some point they leave LV-223 but then the Juggernaught is seen Floating Aimlessly in Space...  it would see that David had done enough to allow the Ship to leave LV-223 but he was then using the Juggernaught as a Bargaining Chip for Dr Shaw to eventually Put him Back Together again.

The Crossing shows that Dr Shaw's Hair had been Growing for what would be about 9 Months. (6-11 Months usually for that Hair Growth).  And David had said he had been on Planet 4 for about 10 years.

So i Assume that by the Time Dr Shaw was placed into Cryo-Sleep it would have been 4-16 weeks until the Juggernaught Arrived....   I certainly dont think it took a YEAR.... i think it could have taken Weeks, Certainly dont think it would take Months.

David had said he was NOT sure to Dr Shaw, because i feel is Agenda would have been to get put back together, then get Dr Shaw into Cryo-Sleep and then David is FREE to take as much time as he likes to Assess what he was to do next with NO-ONE  being able to Stop Him.

We dont have any idea of the Distance of Planet 4, it is located in the Reticuli System as far as the Point in the Sky/Space but that is NO Guarantee that Planet 4 is located about 40LY from Earth.

It appears the Covenant had taken up to a Year to get to Planet 4 from Earth, and it would have taken the Nostromo 10 Months from LV-426 to Earth, so do we assume they are of similar Speeds due to Age?  We cant be sure.

I know there was a Early Draft to Alien Covenant that was released where the Crossing was the Prologue but i have NOT read this and maybe i would have to try and locate it as maybe it can indicate some clues to the Distance of Planet 4, Origae-6 and Journey Times?

I would only assume the Juggernaught would have taken weeks 2-8 to Planet 4 but thats just a assumption, not based on much FACT, i know its unlikely it took more than 4 Months.

I would assume a Juggernaught would get from LV-223 to Earth Vastly more quicker than the Prometheus, Covenant and Nostromo...  The Sulaco took 3 weeks.. and i would assume the Engineers Ships are Faster than W-Y Technology at that Time.  And so with No Proof i would not be surprised if the Trip from LV-223 to Planet 4 took Days.....  but again there is No Proof so thats Speculative by me.

Well, I suppose if David gets his queen, producing eggs in abundance wouldn’t be a problem. For every egg, a host is needed and there are 2000 sleeping colonists on USCSS Covenant so he could probably get an army of wolves even before they reach Origae-6. David says to Walter, about the colonists (and mankind), that “They don’t deserve to start again, and I’m not going to let them”.

So, why go to Origae-6 at all? It would be an interesting conclusion of the prequels if we came back to LV-223. Perhaps see what’s inside the other facilities? Some of the colonists might have survived and tries to escape somehow. The Deacon might be lurking somewhere and enter engineers and colonial marines . . .

I think if you look at it from a Certain Perspective then it would come across that David would want to just Eradicate Mankind and Create is Wolf with the Queen he has yet to Perfect.

IF we assume this to be the case  then it would depend on HOW David would do this...  The Advent Viral would have been a Complete Mistake by David... a Massive Error of Ways!

He would had been more ideal for him to return to LV-223 in the Covenant,  then indeed Create some Xenomorphs/Eggs on the Covenant ship and SEND it to Origae-6 but the Problem is the Covenant could be Detected on its way to LV-223 and Intercepted maybe prior to Origae-6 (especially having sent the Advent Viral).  He should have recorded that to be Transmitted weeks after the Covenant Departs LV-223 so that it sets up a Wild Goose Chase.

While he then leaves LV-223 with a Juggernaught and Bombards Earth..... the Problem with this would be that Mankind is NOT confined to Earth, and its if he can Bombard Earth with Black Goo and make a Hasty Escape, the Juggernaught appeared to lack any Weapons Systems as far as being able to Engage and Attack other Ships (but this could be Spoon Fed into a Plot).

I think we have to work out if David has a Priority to Create/Perfect his Xenomorph killing Machines, or if he wants Mankind Destroyed, as if he wants the Latter then the Black Goo would be the Quicker Way.

Ridley Scott indicated a different Path, before we eventually reach a Path that would maybe Directly take us to the Back Door of ALIEN... but at this Moment with a Sequel on HOLD.. then what ever idea Ridley Scott may have had could well be SHELVED!

Well, I suppose a fitting ending would be David leaving LV-223 in a juggernaut loaded with eggs (to wipe out mankind), gets infected (how does a synthetic get infected?) and ends up on LV-426 . . .

Amazing topic chli, thank you for posting.

Who created the Xenomorph?

The novel tried answer this question by citing an example facehugger and ovomorph found by David, shown for a moment when Captain Oram walked by it.  

Critters5 cited a video that mentions this here. Thank you Critters5.

A filtered screenshot of the moment the Supreme Example is shown to Oram, below.

The way this scene was set up in Alien: Covenant is a little similar to the scene in Prometheus where Milburn's "dunce" label is applied after trying to warm up to the black goo soaked hammerpede.

Why does Oram follow David?

In the novel, David sets Oram's nerves at ease a little by tossing an inert, petrified egg sac opposed to a viable, active one.  In the "first alien" deleted scene from Prometheus, Millburn captures a small, slow moving creature.  This sets Millburn up with the over-confidence seen when greeting the hammerpede with a smile.

Logically, why would Oram follow David anywhere after seeing a floating (but still beautiful) Rosenthal head?  

David appealed to Oram's sense of wonder in regards to science.

Captain Oram was Chief Science Officer of the Covenant mission before the flare incident (Dr. Shaw was also Chief Science Officer of the Prometheus mission).  Oram followed David down the steps because David convinced him he was safe after tossing him an egg sac and Oram instinctively caught it. 

David explained to the Captain that he could have easily thrown a viable egg for Oram to catch with active mutagen but did not.  Oram bought it. 

David Found A Supreme Example of the Facehugger and Ovomorph

"Challenged but still wary, Oram came forward. Gripping his rifle even more tightly and prepared to raise it at the slightest untoward movement from either the object or the synthetic to he leaned over to peer into the now gaping vase-like specimen the interior revealed a motionless creature, all fingerlike appendages and flattened body, with a muscular tail coiled beneath it as if it was ready to spring outward.

It did not move.

It was dead, as dead in preserved as David had promised. As dead as the egg sac the synthetic had tossed to him. Oram stepped back from the specimen, which seemed pregnant with hideous potential.

The synthetic's reaction was notably different. "Quite magnificent don’t you think?"

Quite something, that’s for sure, Oram muttered. He continued to gaze at the egg thing and its contents. As patiently lifeless as it was, it still manage to send a quiver of fear through here.

"Oh captain." David shake his head sadly. "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it’s appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris."

"Would that I could create something so perfect in its function, he added. I try, but I don’t have thousands of years of practice at biological and genetic engineering. I only have my parable programming on which to draw. That, and 10 years of earnest effort on my own behalf. I have learned only a little, yet a soldier on, hoping all ways to achieve something like this, always striving to do better, to improve. That’s what the engineers did, I suppose.That is what someone playing God should do."

Alien: Covenant novelization page 243.

I think it still boils down to if we take the NOVEL as having more Weight, than the Directors Comments.

without seeing the Draft that Alan Dean Foster had to work with, we cant really be sure.  Maybe i have to dig up a Interview with ADF... i am sure he mentioned that this Scene is something he had ADDED.

If we assume this was correct, then we have to ASK where did David discover the Egg... if he Discovered it on Planet 4, its indicated from the Novel (as far as i am aware) that David encountered a Specimen he had to Euthanize.

We then have to ASK how many had he detected, and HOW Foolish are the Engineers to keep a Specimen on their Homeworld?  Without Safety Precautions.

It depends on HOW we interpret our Engineers, i think RS had plans to show these beings have much more about them than Creating/Sacrificing themselves for the Procreation of the Xenomorph...  RS seems to want to cover the Broader Creation and Gardeners of Space.

If the Engineers Main Agenda is to Procreate Species like the Xenomorph, then Discovering a Egg on Planet 4 would NOT seem too out of Place. 

But i am NOT drawn to these beings using Planet 4 and the Cathedral as a Sacrificial Place to Procreate such Horrors!

For me i am drawn more to the Creation of Worlds and Species for other reasons as the PRIME Agenda of the Engineers.  I am actually more drawn to conclude the Juggernaughts are just more ADVANCED Seeding Ships and NOT any WARSHIP!

And so the Egg on Planet 4 prior to David's Arrival seems out of Place...

http://www.avpgalaxy.net/2017/06/27/interview-alan-dean-foster-alien-covenant-novel-discussion-avpgalaxy-podcast-51/

Thats a Interview with Alan Dean Foster.... i get the impression the "Acknowledge beauty when you see it. Even if it’s appearance disturbs you, surely you could admire the skill that went into its design. In case you were wondering, I had nothing to do with it. It lies as I found it, a supreme example of the Engineers skill. And also, I suppose of their hubris." Scene was NOT part of the Draft and ADF added it as he felt this is what would improve and flesh out the Story.

However it seems FOX was happy for him to add this to the Novel.

So the Debate Continues....

Even if we accept that David creates the xenomorph that the crew of the Nostromo encounter, we still have the issue of the Derelict (filled with thousands or millions of eggs and the space jockey looking fossilized).

It's 18 years between the disaster on Planet 4 and Captain Dallas, Kane, and Lambert finding the Derelict. In this time David has to traverse long distances of space, creating a queen, and the Derelict ending up on LV-426 . . .

chli Is it even correct to assume that there exists a queen before the one in Aliens. It might as well be the first one.

IgnorantGuy

Well, as I see it, it depends on two things (at least):

The first is what David means by saying that he will create a queen out of Daniels?

The second thing is that there seem to be millions of eggs in the cargo hold of the Derelict. David could perhaps create 2000 eggs from the colonists on the Covenant?