Prometheus Revisited

we have to look at the comments made by RS in the lead up to the production and making of the film and the basis of the problems, at least for me, become very apparent.

initially RS STATED he was making a full alien prequel movie that was intended to be the first in a hopeful trilogy. even if he was not going to continue with later films for say, the film bombed, he at least had the intent of leaving the door wide open for someone else at a later date to continue on. as the pre-production of the film progressed he realised there was a more important question (at least to him) that had not been asked in any of the other alien movies. thusly, who was the pilot of the derelict and what was the connection to the xeno/eggs? he then STATES he is making a stand alone movie with the intent of a trilogy that would eventually tie into the original. unfortunately for him, so many people cant look past his original statement in that this is meant to directly tie into alien from the offset. the man himself has stated he has doubts on a god creating all things but never claims one doesn't exist. so hes looking into a possibility as to the creation of ourselves. remember, god 'apparently' created man in his image so that ties into why the engineers look so much like us. its only our evolution on a different planet that separates us. its safe to assume that these creators would be vastly more evolved than ourselves in terms of thinking and tech to even consider they could create us unnaturally.

RS makes an astonishingly good jump off point in Prometheus but it has divided so many due to some bad casting and a film that needed another 30 mins at least of screen time which would have greatly helped in character building and holes to be filled. remember alien takes over 45 mins to even get to the good stuff and is still regarded a masterpiece which shows people will accept a slow pace to begin with if done for the right reasons and in the right way. something Prometheus sorely lacks. the point of Prometheus is not in any way to give answers. its the origin of the question. I hate how people shit on it due only to the argument 'not enough aliens' or 'it raised more questions than gave answers'. listen to what RS said. its a stand alone movie with the hopes of a trilogy to tie into alien at the end. the first movie isn't supposed to grant answers, that's the job of the sequels. for the not enough aliens problem, we get a giant facehugger, a deacon and an alien humanoid whose whole history would have scientists drooling at the mouth. the greatest discovery in the history of mankind. what else do u want? is the film itself flawed? yes. but imo that's nothing to do with the film itself and more choices in casting and the film not being long enough. the biggest casting problem for me was Theron. wasted wasted wasted wasted. she should have been Shaw or Daniels. I have no issues at all with the plot of the film and love how after watching it I had so many different ideas and thoughts on where they could go. were the engineers split into factions due to civil unrest/war? did they serve a higher power? did they discover the original xeno/deacon and experiment? WHAT WAS THE WHOLE STORY REGARDING THE DERELICT?

unfortunately for me, they made Alien Covenant.....

F**K all those questions. the android did it.

well F**K YOU very much for trashing it all. I for one will never have a third viewing of AC and I curse them for it. I was looking forward to that movie sooooo much more than iv ever wanted to see a movie. even the trailers were awesome but the film was garbage and now I don't even care if they ever make a sequel. for me the franchise ends at Prometheus

' the android did it.'

??

More like: Weyland did it...Humanity did it.

If not for Peter Weyland, David would be a assembly robot on Mars building spaceships or rovers.

David the caretaker opened the box...Woke the devil...planted the seed.

David(humanity) is Prometheus. 

@BigDave

"I don't want to meet God in the first movie."

This assumes you wish to meet God in the second movie.

Given he offers this thought during the Waterfall Incident it becomes important to establish a narrative possibility from the ritual on display.

The transmission of God, of God entering the world is through sacrifice.  

When Elizabeth considers the fresco's the reproduction mechanism she discovers is through hosting.

When Charlie considers the mural the transmission mechanism of the Deacon's characteristic is through sacrifice.

Like Frankenstein it denies the onlooker sexual reproduction.

We arrive at the end of the movie with a question about sexual knowledge and reproduction and we are sat there with a barren woman who has given birth to a chaotic accident and an android incapable of reproduction.

When we arrive wherever we arrive we need to learn why there is a denial of sexual reproduction in what we know so far. Haven't our makers figured out sexual reproduction unless that is to look at it the wrong way round.

So the Engineers may not be conceived through the mechanism of a loving relationship but rather like Frankensteins Monster and David out of creative knowledge. They are created out of a void whereas mankind is created out of chaos (to paraphrase and borrow from Mary Shelley).

So an extension of the film can deal with.

1) Are the creatures of the Moon Promethean.

2) If they are they were destroyed (which ever way self or third party.)

3) Why did they leave and wish to sub create what was wrong in Paradise? 

4) Who made them and what is their relationship with their creators. 

If we get those answers its extremely likely mankind is a footnote in this movement and the result of error in the plan and thats when we start to look at Elizabeth who is displaying a good deal of Miltonic Adam and Frankenstein's Monster and has had an annunciation of sorts and is now looking a lot like Pandora.

So with all that heavyweight theology weighing down the two characters how can you avoid sitting around for two hundred pages or 2 hours and not just rocking up and talking the meaning of life. There has to be a point to their journey which they are not aware of.

Probably if you take the view that creative knowledge is destructive (which it has been) and sexual knowledge is denied (which appears to be) then you can put Elizabeth through the ringer show her her personal Paradise but also her more general hell and see how she makes out with the robot that made her pregnant who she chooses to Fix with a typical female viewpoint "I can make him the man I want him to be", you know the redemption chick.Oh no not more hubris !

Except David was also created for all the wrong reasons and as others have worked out Weyland's understanding of Prometheus is a little flawed. So maybe David and Elizabeth don't fall in love they fall out of love with all around them.       

 

 

@ali81

Indeed the Prequels went through various stages of Evolution before we got to Shooting of Prometheus.

The Initial Intention was some kind of Prequel that appeared to be a Direct Prequel, but there was Flaws, the Time-Line was wrong but this was down to Spaights not being Familiar with WHEN the Movie ALIEN was set, as it had NO Time-Line, its only from ALIENS that we can get a 2122 Time-Line due to the Acknowledgement that Ripley was Floating in Space for 57 years.

I am not sure that Idea would have led to Sequels that would lead to ALIEN, it seems that it Indicated the Ending of the Movie well the Crashing of the Juggernaught would be what led to the Derelict, but that a Sequel would STEER AWAY from ALIEN.

If we had Alien Engineers as a Direct Prequel to Alien, even if the Time-Line was FIXED to be say 2072-2092, there would have been Conflicts with the Franchise, the Wreckage of the Magellan, the Life-Boat, Pyramids and the Signal that came from the Pyramids and NOT the Derelict.

So it needed some Tidy up, and so thats when Lindeloff came in, only the ALIEN elements and clues to the Derelict where TONED DOWN maybe too much.  None the less the indication was to give some Clues to a Connection but to also keep it Ambiguous to keep some Mystery thus leaving the Derelict as a ANCIENT MYSTERY.

Prometheus became a Stand Alone as in its Events would NOT directly tie into ALIEN as far as the Derelict.   It was left open ended so that if there was NO Sequel it would not cause any real Conflict, but it was set up to Warrant a Sequel that would have STEERED AWAY from ALIEN.

Fox took On-board complaints about Prometheus and they assumed the Biggest Problem was Fans wanted to see Xenomorphs and have a Sequel that would Directly lead to ALIEN and the Derelict.... and thus ALIEN COVENANT was born....

Which i felt was a Unnecessary way forwards.

@Michelle

Indeed the "never wanted to meet God" was in connection to the removal of the Elders Scene, it can be Interpreted in many ways as he never gave a real explanation.   They felt that the Elders Scene and especially the Dialog would have GIVEN away too much and so they decided to keep some Mystery... so we can assume such things are open to be Explored in a Sequel.

I think the Comment by Dr Shaw "so who created them" was there to Indicate the Engineers are not the Highest Chain in the Creation Plot, there are other Layers before them it seemed.

Ridley Scott had said that they (David and Shaw) would be off to the Planet of the Engineers to meet these beings who are not Gods in the Traditional Sense.... so who knows how they would have explored it, the Elders appeared to be just OLDER versions of the Engineers.. was RS disappointed in their look, they seemed to be more Frail and less Godlike than the other Engineers.

I feel a lot is open to Interpretation, RS had referred to the Engineers as Dark Angels, the Fallen Angels, but WHO? the LV-223 Engineers, the Sacrificial Engineer, the WHOLE of the Engineers?

so it depends on how you interpret that, with Prometheus it is touching on  the Chariots of the Gods, where our Mythos and Religions came from Interaction with the Engineers, and so its like suggesting there could be Multiple Layers to the Hierarchy..  Most Mythos and Religion have a CAST system, a Hierarchy, where there are a GOD or GODS at the Top... it appears the Engineers are likely NOT at that Top Layer. 

I think it depends how LITERAL we also look into things, but the point i am raising is the Fallen Angels are a Rebellious Sub-Creation of GOD, likewise Prometheus was a Treacherous Sub-Creation too.

I think we can kind of unlock more into Ridley Scotts thinking when in 2015 after the announcement of Alien: Paradise Lost he had said that if the Engineers are the Forerunners of Mankind, then what made it possible for Worlds to be able to Support Life in the First Place.... where is the BIG GUY?

What i draw from that though is a Indication that the Reason that their are Worlds that are able to Support Life is NOTHING that is by Pure Accident, and so its a Planned and Designed Outcome that is likely Carried out by something/someone that is above our Engineers in that Hierarchy.

My Interpretation prior to 2014 was maybe wondering could the LV-223 Engineers have more in Common with David than us?  The LV-223 Engineers at least... and so i wondered if they Rebelled against their Creator and this is WHY they are considered Fallen Angels?

When we Flash Forwards to Alien Covenant, we had Ridley Scott claim those Planet 4 Engineers are the Originals.... so what did that make those LV-223 guys?

so maybe when Ridley Scott said he did not want to meet GOD, he could have indicated that those LV-223 Engineers and maybe Sacrificial Engineers are themselves a Sub-Created Species and we would indeed be off to discover as Dr Shaw had said "who made them" who may have been revealed to be similar to the Engineers anyway?

Its difficult to know for sure, unless we ever see any of the Earlier Drafts by Paglen and Green that dated prior to 2015.

This reply is just how i saw things though, regarding the NOT having to meet God, which i saw and also based on other comments that the Engineers are merely just the same Layer as the Angels would be in the Biblical Accounts... or either 2nd Generation Titans  or Olympians in Greek Mythos or Igigi in the Ancient Mesopotamian accounts.

I certainly think that you make GREAT points about a Creation that has no LOVE... like Frankenstein.

We see that really David was created like this... we could wonder if those LV-223 Engineers were Created like that too.

Was we Created the same?  Was their NO Care or Love in our Creation? What a Revelation that would be for Dr Shaw..... or if she discovered we was Created for a Good Purpose and our Creators had more Care for us than say how Weyland had for David....

If those Watchers on LV-223 was not created in such a way and similar to David, then they could be Jealous of of Creation, just as Lucifer was of Adam...

LV-223 Engineers Tasked to Donate their Superior DNA to Create us, for their Creators who IF they had a Fond Outlook on Mankind could make those LV-223 kind Jealous, maybe they would try and Control and Corrupt us? Try to present themselves as our Gods....?

So yes there could have been Interested ways to have expanded the Engineers History, either by that way above or similar.

Or revelation that Mankind are just insignificant Creation that was created with No Love involved...

If you meant Love as in a Creation from a Natural Coming together of a Male/Female to Produce a Off-Spring than that also is a Interesting thing to cover.

If we looked at the Planet 4 Engineers as a Original Species who can Procreate with each other, and the LV-223 Engineers were a Sub-Creation who CANT procreate, but they are to Watch Over Mankind... and they could ask WHY is it that Mankind can Procreate like their Creators, and yet they CANT!

They could find that Frustrating and maybe see themselves treated like 2nd Class Citizens like David is... especially as they seemed more Enhanced and Superior to those Planet 4 Engineers and Mankind.

For such a Sterile Sub-Creation (if we assume thats what they are) then maybe they could HOLD being Created in the Image of the Planet 4 Engineers a bit of a Mockery, maybe they got infected with something that would then allow them to GIVE BIRTH and Create Life where they could NOT....(just as Dr Shaw did via the Black Goo) those Engineers on LV-223 could see this as some Miracle, in that they can indeed GIVE BIRTH and to a New Species they may see as being Superior to their Creators, and so they Worshiped this and intended to Evolve/Corrupt all of their Masters Creations with this Horrific New Form.

Thats kind of how i Interpret what the LV-223 Engineers were and connections to the Fresco etc.

"More like: Weyland did it...Humanity did it"

MonsterZero thats kind of Right, if we go further back then the Engineers did it, if they Never Created us then NONE of this mess would have happened.

So thats one of the Big Themes, the Hubris of Sub-Creation and Consequences ;)

I’d make a couple of observations about the opening scenes.

1. The planet appears to be largely barren of life, but some of the warmer/greener hills and valleys strongly hint at the presence of chlorophyll. Something like moss or grass. Yeah, I’ve visited Iceland! So, a planet featuring life at an early stage of development. We can speculate where that basic life came from originally, but there’s something for the Engineers to work with.

2. The black goo that interferes with the Engineer’s DNA is not elemental. By this I mean it is not composed of what we could call chemical matter with its 94 naturally occurring elements. Or indeed any synthetic element. How do we know this? Because the goo is much smaller than atomic matter, specifically the nucleobases shown in the engineered DNA strands. It is to atomic matter as a snowflake is to a mountain. In other words something that is way beyond the Standard Model of particle physics. That’s fine: scientists are currently grappling with known but unseen stuff called Dark Matter, so we know there’s much more going on in this universe than we’re aware of.

Let's remove Shaw and David from Prometheus.

 

A young Peter Weyland (12ish?early twenties?) finds the cave painting(on family holiday or something...father/mother archaeologist? )....This fuels his life long fascination with creation and the search for ET....later in life, having the capital to do so, he returns to the cave painting mystery(Having dedicated a small part of Weyland corp to research it).....

With help from MUTHUR,  Peter forces open the door...wakes the Engineer(Walter advises against)

 

'.....Unable to reach the door controls, Weyland told Walter to "get on his hands and knees" so he could stand on his back...'

Walter complied. He resisted the urge to 'bark'. He'd spent plenty of time with Weyland's young daughters, playing many pretend creatures.

'What is the sequence Walter!?'

@hox

Indeed the Opening Scene would appear to Indicate that this Primordial World had some Basic Life at the Very Least, which was a point i was raising Earlier in the Topic.  Damien Lindeloff indicated the Sacrificial Scene was the Start of LIFE as we KNOW it... so that could be taken as Life as we have today which is Complex Life, and not Micro-Organisms which have been Present for about 3.5 Billion Years.

My Interpretation of the Scene points me to speculate what that Scene was doing was the Catalyst for how Basic Microbial Life had Evolved into Complex Organisms.   The World had Basic Life, but we dont really know HOW this Basic Life had got on this World, it could be that this is also a Result of the Engineers Interference on Worlds, even as far as Possible Terra-forming of said Worlds prior.

The Overall Point being raised by the Commentary being that without the Engineers Interactions on Worlds where they USE the Sacrificial Rituals then there would be NO real Life as we know it, and Certainly NO Mankind.

The Effects we see with the Sacrificial Goo is that this Substance begins to infect every Molecular Cell of the Engineer, it Tears them apart, Breaks them down.. Hence we see DNA Strands become Infected and Turn Black and then they Tear/Break Apart.

It would be like looking at the Engineer being Made out of say Billions of Pieces of LEGO, so like he was a Massive Statue made from Billions of Pieces and what we are seeing is this LEGO STATUE is being Broken down back into Individual LEGO Pieces. 

This is WHERE it gets a bit Ambiguous...

Visually we see these Pieces enter the Water and begin to Rebuild, we see the DNA Strands start to Re-form... but we have to ASSUME this does not lead us to a Engineer being Re-Built.

From this we are then taken to showing Cells Splitting and Replicating...  so we would take this as the Engineers Building Blocks are Broken down and then these are then Reforming into the Basic Building Blocks of Life.

This is the ONE way to look at the Scene.... a way which would NOT Contradict the Fact the World had Basic Forms of Life by Virtue of the Green Algae we at least see on the World.

The other WAY is that by Virtue of this Green Algae, it is LIKELY that other Micro-Biological Life exists in the Water.  When taking into Account the Scene from Spaights Drafts, and then when we encounter those Scarabs again and what they do then, and compare that with the Sacrificial Goo and Black Goo effects, especially in Context to Lindeloffs Drafts.

Then it seems to indicate the GOO would break down a Organism and Form a Mutagen that Contains the Organisms DNA/Genomes and then this Mutagen would INFECT other Organic Matter and Infect/Pass on the DNA/Traits of the Organism the GOO had Broken down/Consumed.

So we could Speculate that this indicated the Sacrificial Scene showed the GOO was the Catalyst to Merge the Engineers DNA with Basic Life to Kick Start the Process of Complex Life Evolution.

So its a Evolutionary/Hybrid Tool/Pathogen.

so we are LEFT with TWO possible Explanations.

1) It is a Event that via the Engineers Building Blocks (Molecular Structure) that the Basic Building Blocks of LIFE had Formed from.

2) It is a Event where the Broken Down Building Blocks of the Engineer become a Pathogen that Passes on his DNA to Evolve Basic Life that is on a World... a Catalyst of Evolution.

I think which it is, is NOT so important to the Purpose as far as showing the Sacrificial Scene in Relation to HOW we came about.

Its only looking at the Effects of the Urns where taking a Certain Look at how the Sacrificial Goo worked that Complicates things, where as the other View makes Further Sense.

BigDave

Sep-17-2019 8:32 AM

 

I promised to listen to the commentary which covers the prologue of the movie on my return home.

Jon and Damon make references to their original ideas which they acknowledge have been amended but the message is simple and all three are in agreement. This scene involves the seeding of life on a planet which at that stage had basic plant life e.g. lichens. Ridley is the one that emphasises it may not necessarily be earth. He was the one that chose the disc shaped craft and placed the event millions of years ago. 

However his most interesting comment is when he begins talking about the name of the film. He poses the question then, if they made us who made them.

It is as clear as day we were made by Promethean Engineers but who made them. It is then very easy by intelligent deduction to work out that the Promethean Engineers stole the technology, a point that Ridley made in an IV given at the films launch which I shared on this forum a year ago. 

Right at the top of the commentary he is introducing a hierarchy and suggesting that the Gods that made us were Promethean.

For those reading who would say you should not have to read associated material. Damon counters this by indicating that there is more to be gained by diving in and having to think for oneself. Also to keep the Engineers mysterious at this stage made sense in their view. 

What the film was intending to do was make people hungry for the answers, what they got was no answer but the monster and the mad robot.

I do not intend to go through every section of the movie to make my point that if you look at the visual symbolism and themes and then dismiss what it cannot mean you are left with a clear idea of what it does mean. 

Mankind were made by dark angels who stole creative knowledge and the latter perished for their troubles. The rites of this mythos are bound up with intervention by sacrifice and hosting. The dark angels carried out experiments which lead to their own vision including a minor tributary the creature that emerged from Kane. 

What is missing from the film is what their makers thought of them and how does this notion of sacrifice and hosting work in a non Promethean set up where the use of creative knowledge is sanctioned within the rules of the mythos. 

Thats me done. 

 

 

 

@Michelle

Thats a Nice Summary and Good Points

It was Interesting to WHY they changed what would have been more a Juggernaught to the Disc/Pebble Shape, as it indicated maybe prior that the Juggernaught would Function a Seeding Function, but they could also have Multiple Uses.   While they never mentioned this, having TWO different Styles that Reflect a Creation Event, and another a Destruction Event maybe featured into another reason for that Change, we can only Speculate.

The Stolen Technology Aspect is something that can be Considered, certainly Wayne Haag had made a Conclusion that he felt those Engineers had STOLEN their Technology and so its a case of WHERE and from WHO?

The Plot is always something thats Changing and Evolving right from the Conception of Alien 01 The Master Narrative to what little Background they have intended with Alien Covenant.

By that i think its interesting to Speculate about these Hall of Heads, Superior Beings, Apostles and Hierarchy. 

It seems Unlikely we would cover such Depth about our Engineers, which had so much Potential with Prometheus, its likely that any sequel to AC would only introduce us to those Angry Military Types from LV-223 who Stumble Upon and Fall Foul to Davids Creation....

So we may get NO further Insight into the Engineers apart from as much Detail about them as the Hybrid Predator was in The Predator...

There Potentially was Layers to the Creator/Creation Cake that it looks like we would not be seeing... it very much seems like " the monster and the mad robot" and only how this leads to LV-426 that could be all that they are interested in NOW...

Which is a Real Shame.

Regarding the Choice to keep a Lot of Mystery, i think it was the RIGHT WAY to go, if we had the Elders Scene and Dialog, it would mean we get the Revelation that these Elders as Frail as they are, were the Last of their Generation and they had to result to other means to Procreate their other Generations.

Leaving it out.... then we have that Mystery about IF there is and WHO there is, as far as above those Engineers.  Keeping the Mystery also gives us something to TALK about, allows them to Gauge our Reaction and allows more Freedom to go and either STICK with the Background they had at the Time of Shooting and Prior, or they can Change it and Expand on that Mystery.

Those Mysteries also act as something to get us to want to go and see a Sequel for Answers..

"However his most interesting comment is when he begins talking about the name of the film."

I thought that was a Interesting part of the Commentary as it indicates that the Prometheus Moniker was not Part of the Process of the to a great Degree until a Certain Point.

Its only Mention in the Earlier Drafts being in Spaights just ONCE... so the Stealing of Technology Theme did-not seem too Prevalent in the Drafts. But none the less we can see they kind of was a Promethean Tale but not really more Prominent than other Mythos/Religions connections.  So i think as they set out to Shoot the Movie, the Promethean Theme became more Prominent in their Intentions.

CARGO BAY The crew - Brick, Glasse, Stillwell, Downs, and Kamarov - sit on crates in an improvised lecture hall. Holloway and Watts in front of them. Janek at the back of the room. A hologram shows ancient images of divine visitations. The crew is visibly spooked. DOWNS Aliens . GLASSE You shitting me? Stillwell is staring at the frightening images: gods and titans towering over mortals . HOLLOWAY I think all our mythologies are race- memories of the Engineers . Horus the Sun God. Prometheus bringing fire from heaven. A pillar of fire, a pillar of smoke. The Engineers are the gods.