4 simple ways to fix the Progenitor David issue!

BigDave

ALIEN (The Prequel) was actually very funny. :D

Well, it's mankind's longest journey so far in space and we end up finding extraterrestrials looking just like us. Furthermore, they created us.

How did Shaw know or suspect this beforehand by the way (that they engineered us)?

@ BigDave,

In the OP I wanted to keep each suggestion vague so as to gauge peoples interpretations rather than bombard people with my own. But now that you have offered yours I will do so in kind...

LV-426

I would actually advise against returning there, as I view it akin to a well that has been mined too many times. Instead I imagine LV-426 could be mentioned in a flashback or memory whereby we again see David on the Prometheus en-route to LV-223 and a display showing LV-223 and LV-426, with some sort of identifier symbolizing the signal being sent from there.

Planet 4

There are actually a few ways in which Davids deception could be made apparent using Planet 4. One way would be the discovery of the remains of Engineer transcripts that David has attempted to burn and destroy that clearly show he copied their work. Another way would be to discover an egg hidden somewhere in the Engineer city, and another way would be to discover some Engineer mural or pictograph showing the Alien.

David

David revealing his deception could be the entire point of the deception. In the advent message, David boasted to Weyland-Yutani that he had created the perfect organism and that he would unleash it upon them. The intended result would be for Weyland-Yutani to track down David and either destroy him or take from him what he has claimed to create, leading Weyland-Yutani on a wild goose chase away from LV-426 where the real, original threat lies. But with Alien it would appear, should this avenue be pursued narratively, that Davids ruse did not work and that Weyland-Yutani learned of what was on LV-426.

Space Jockey

We could see, as I laid out in the OP how the derelict came to be on LV-426, or we could see a ghost-holograph recording depicting the Space Jockeys fate. Another way would be to show how the Space Jockey came to have eggs in its lower decks, which could be revealed to have come about in a way not yet postulated.

@ Monster Zero,

I like to think of the Alien franchise in three parts, Alien, Aliens and its sequels/crossovers which focused on the Queen, and the prequels that focused on the Engineers.

Additionally, there is no on-screen evidence that Ann and Russ Jorden discovered the "bug" Aliens from the same location (the egg silo) that Kane discovered, and it could be that they discovered a separate cache of eggs which had been modified to include a Queen, while the eggs in the silo could be an unmodified variant of the Alien.

As for the black goo could be the franchises savior, if used in the right way.

Planet 4

So... do we think The Engineers hid their planet with technology? And with the Engineers dead,  the tech has failed(or David switched it off)...A nice juicy green Earth type just shows up on their latest search!("..wasn't there last year..").....W Y might have a colony ship or a probe on the way already. 

LV-426

"...ghost-holograph recording depicting the Space Jockeys fate."

Yes! That would be cool.

But I'd probably leave LV-426 alone....Unless it's the source of Chemical A0-3959X.91 – 15.

IMO we don't have any hard evidence so far that David or the Engineers created the xenomorph. We can go that route, but all the other options are open. At some point I said that we can draw a parallel between the Covenat carrying the 2000 colonists and the Space Jockey carrying the thousands of eggs in a sense that the Space Jockey race was hired by the xenomorph race to spread their seeds into the Universe. Or to find a new home for them, like the colonists from Earth did in Alien Covenant. We can still say that the Space Jockey race and the Enginners race are different. It will all depend on the producers.

I think the whole Subject such as I think the whole Subject such as WHO did or did NOT create the Xenomorph the same as WHO the Space Jockey is/was..... really just comes down to Dr Shaws Qoute "its what i choose to believe"

I think when looking at those Questions we have the Following to Consider.

*Original Idea/Concept.... which is something that has Changed/Evolved and so is NO LONGER a Valid Point but something that they could TURN BACK too.

*Bonus Material/Virals... again as things CHANGE these can be removed from being Canon.

*Drafts of the Movies....  again things CHANGE from the Draft too the Shooting of a Movie.

*Deleted/Extended Scenes.... these again can be removed for Various Reasons and their Content sometimes should NOT be considered Definite Evidence.

*Production/Cast Comments... these Tend to be more Accurate only as far as Present at the Time they was made, and so things can CHANGE that would NOT support earlier comments or Plans by Directors etc.

So its ONLY really the Theatrical Movies that remain the SOLID FORM of Clues, but also Sequels can Contradict some Elements of earlier Movies, but these Changes should be Considered the CURRENT Canon and Clues.

For me looking at this then i get the Impression that David is the CREATOR of the Xenomorph even though that may BUG the Fans...

But we have had NO SPOON FED and Water Tight Case, and there are Contradictions but these could all be just OVERSIGHT....

Ultimately until we see those Eggs get on the Derelict and we are shown CONCRETE Proof that these Eggs originate from David then there is always room for CHANGE.

"How did Shaw know or suspect this beforehand by the way"

it would be their Assumptions based of the more than Coincidental Archeological Discovers, that when they discover the Clues Lead to a Star System where they discover a Organism who Share our DNA, then they believe this has PROVED their Thesis as Correct.

But there is NOTHING that is 100% to show they are Correct, as you could throw in a Curve-ball that Mankind had Created the Engineers the Sacrificial Scene then a Curve-ball these Sub-Creations use the Black Goo to NOT seed their DNA but to Seed the Pathogen on Worlds.

Because its not CONCRETE from the Movies and so the above could be ADDED that would NOT really Contradict what we are shown in the Prequels.  Things can be CHANGED and any contradictions could be ignored as OVERSIGHT.

But the indication (until Change) is that Dr Shaw and Holloway had discovered our Creators.

Regarding the Changes to show that David could NOT have created the Xenomorph they could go that route, and dispute clues to suggest otherwise... they could put Davids Notes and Clues to what he was doing as just OVERSIGHT.

But you could change it AGAIN.... but you maybe have to then (or NOT) show us WHY by Coincidence that David has something VERY Similar!

So maybe you have to give a GOOD REASON for WHY would David have something so Similar! Unless you just use the LAZY excuse of Oversight!

Ridley Scott said the Cathedral is where the Engineers would STORE their Knowledge and so likely History too.

This BUILDING is Extremely Large and so if it is a Place to Store Knowledge and maybe History then what do we have like that on Earth?

A Library?  YES!

But also Museums so maybe this could give us a way to have them Store some Long Dead, Mummified Organisms? 

As i would find it VERY Stupid for them to STORE a Deadly Egg in the City, let alone this Building, but maybe a Petrified, Desiccated one for SHOW like  Museum piece would sound Plausible?

Then it could be Revealed that David had Re-Engineered this (use the Goo to extract DNA) to then Merge with the Neomorph and other Experiments... thus Creating a Hybrid.

I would say this would be a Plausible way to Introduce that he had OBTAINED a Egg without Contradictions or Complications.

'2000 colonists and the Space Jockey carrying the thousands of eggs'

Yeah...I'm wondering what David will do with only two facehugger embryos? (One is a queen? can't believe RS would do that. ) If he'd also vomited up an ampule of Goo.....then I'd feel better about him replicating eggs...as it is now, he's probably going to have to find another Goo source?

'I would say this would be a Plausible way to Introduce that he had OBTAINED a Egg without Contradictions or Complications.'

I like that idea. start Covenant 2 with Walter's rescue and have him fill in the planet 4 details and what he's learned?

Opening shot:

Walter (sitting) playing a flute in the plaza...he Looks up to see a vessel landing(space marines)

Spend a bit of time explaining the situation, maybe tour of the city/spooky underground burial chambers...etc........till an alien(Engineers?) probe shows up and scans them....Marines shoot it down. Walter suggests they hasten their departure.

Regarding the Face Huggers, i think it would have been UNLIKELY that Ridley Scott would have gone the Camerons Queen, in that ONE or more of those Face Huggers would Produce a Queen Xenomorph. I think IF we did see much about those Face Huggers then it could be that RS would maybe have explored ALTERNATIVE forms of Procreation and so maybe that could be the Egg Morph?  Who knows.

We cant rule out that David could NOT go back to the Surface for some Black Goo, that would not be a Problem for him, Depending on HOW SURE he is that Walter is Completely Incapacitated...   maybe David could have Grabbed some Black Goo after his Conflict with Walter?

In Context to this Topic though, its about HOW can we go a route to Disprove that David could NOT have created those Eggs on the Derelict.

The its a case of maybe doing it in a way that DOES-NOT really Contradict what we have seen in Alien Covenant.

There are Differences with Davids Xenomorph that we could maybe look at...

The Chest Buster Stage is Different, and also the Gestation seems to be more Quicker.

To me the differences INDICATE maybe TWO reasons for the differences.

1) We are seeing a Re-engineering of the Classic Xenomorph that has taken some Neomorph Traits on, for example Faster Gestation and Fully Formed Chest Buster, that Mimics the Adult Form.

2) Something that had not YET been Evolved to what we have in ALIEN, so we have yet to see HOW the more Synthetic/Less Organic Aesthetic comes into PLAY.

And so i think the Best Solution has to be either as..

1) Where we get some Clues to David obtaining a Xenomorph to Re-Engineer which i just cant see the Engineers being Foolish Enough to Keep Such a Deadly Organism in some kind of ZOO... but maybe a somewhat Desiccated One in a Museum that he could EXTRACT DNA from could be a way to GO!

So that the Derelict Eggs are KEPT as Ancient and after the Company does-not Manage to Obtain the more Evolved Version of Davids, they realize that IF he could Re-Engineer it from a Classic Xenomorph Egg, and IF there are Thousands on LV-426 then they could attempt to Obtain these and Re-Engineer them too.

2) The Engineers or beings above them will Return to see David and HOW much Superior he is to Planet 4 Engineers and Humans, and he is NOT Organic.... and they also see how his Xenomorph is more Superior to the Experiments conducted on LV-223 and Horrors that Created.

So these Beings/Engineers see Great Potential and they make a Amalgamation of David/Walter and his Xenomorph to then get us to the Eggs on the Derelict.

So what we have then is either that David eventually reaches his Z by Experiments that Involved the Engineers A and his Experiments with other Life to make a Hybrid.

Or that the Engineers/Other beings take Davids work which is J-K which he had used the Engineers A-I to then Evolve this Process R-Z thus making David the Middle Man only.

We could have other Solutions that would appease the Fan Boys that would then Contradict or Trash what the Prequels set out..... such as a Discovery in the Depths of the Cathedral of a Egg Laying Xenomorph Queen... which then we would ask... WHY would David go through so much Effort?

BigDave

If we go only by what we see in the film, we know that doctors Holloway and Shaw found identical star maps and a giant pointing towards a constellation.

Shaw chooses to believe it's an invitation and that the extraterrestrials created us. David has studied their "thesis" but what this contains we don't get to know.

So, in order to find the answer to why she believes they created us, we need to go beyond the movie . . .

A bit off-topic so, yes, there are many ways to make David not the creator of the xenomorph (Gavin has given a couple).

As for myself, I like the angle that David is delusional (one note is off). We see signs everywhere that this creature has been around for ages. I like to think that he isn't even close to the real xenomorph - the Deacon (on the mural) . . .

I think what it ULTIMATELY comes down too is Fans think they know what is BEST but forget they dont really have 100% Control over what Direction they take the Franchise, sometimes they can Voice Frustration and FOX then Listen which is WHY we got Alien Covenant and its a case of BE CAREFUL what you wish for.....

But absolutely the David as the Creator Arc is surely a Unnecessary Move, ONE they should have Surely Considered would UPSET Fans...

But there would be NO WAY to please Fans anyway, IF the Sequel to Prometheus had NEVER given us the Answers or Xenomorphs then some would have NOT been happy... if it showed that a Queen was the Origins of the Xenomorph then NOT everyone would have been Happy.

Dr Shaw seems to sum it up the BEST..  "its what i choose to believe"

Then we are left with this quote "the trick is not minding that it hurts" but a Majority do mind that it Hurts.

We can offer some Explanations that David cant be Trusted or that Dr Shaw and Holloway are completely Incorrect and that in REALITY he (David) just found a Xenomorph Egg and Messed about with it, and our Space Jockey is Cyril Sneer from the Raccoons..

Sadly we have to Accept what we see, and then it can be Changed as long as it considers what we see before.

The Mural and Frescos dont show me a Xenomorph, but they are Ambiguous that anyone can make anything out of them, what it seems to show is that they had done Experiments on something that had lead to that Mural Deacon, and that the Black Goo seems to pass on Traits of this Organism that is Connected to the Xenomorph but there is NO evidence of HOW this is Connected, as far as what Process, which came First Etc.

There are Discrepancies to make its seem UNLIKELY that David could have Created the Xenomorph and these as far as On Screen are that the Derelict looked like it had been on LV-426 for Vastly Longer than 17 Years.

Davids creation also looks Aesthetically Different, but the same Argument is raised in the Differences between the Derelict/Juggernaught and Engineers/Space Jockey...    so Differences that could be just a OVERSIGHT... where we maybe have to either NOT MIND that it Hurts... or just CHOOSE to Believe what we want.

For the Record i think we are in a Pickle and the Move they with Alien Covenant was a Mistake!

But there are a Few things that we could use to Question the Integrity of what David had done, but then thats OK as long as we give a Good Explanation to what he had actually achieved... and WHY?

I think we could come up with some Explanations... but then maybe need to Respect what we saw in Alien Covenant and so i think to have David just discover a Live Egg or a Few Live Eggs and offer no other Explanations would be LAZY way out....

So i think we need to discover Davids Notes or hear it from him, that he had Discovered something that lead to his Creation that came from the Original Xenomorphs and have him indicate WHY he would bother with the other Experiments if he had already Discovered the Xenomorph Eggs that are in Perfect Condition.

Looking at the Movie i seem to think its Pushing us towards that David had either Began this Creation or he had Re-Engineered it but then from WHAT? as the Clues to me seem to point to using the Neomorph and Black Goo to then Cross-Breed Various Organisms...

For me it does-not ALONE conclude that those Eggs on the Derelict had Originated from David's Experiments, the Biggest Issue is that the Derelict looks like its been on LV-426 for a LONG LONG Time.

But if we dont pay Attention to Detail, then its a bit more Ambigious regarding Davids Experiments, it all comes down to the Production just NOT considering the other Movies and sticking stuff in because it looks COOL!

But i Understand this should NOT become another David did-not create the Xenomorph posts but more of WHAT can we do to Carry On and show that he could NOT have created or played a Roll in those Eggs on LV-426.

ULTIMATELY... it should have been Left a Mystery and NOT gone any route to show us Classic Xenomorphs or Indicate their Origins.

Hopefully i never came across as Harsh or too Opinionated in my Previous Post, i apologize i had done.

I think the David as a Creator makes Sense on One Hand as it Fits the Themes at Play, but it Totally Removes everything that was ALIEN about the Xenomorph and having David create something a little Different would have FITTED with the Reasons for having him Apparently being the Creator, so having him as the Creator was Unnecessary.

There are more Problems than just that, in regards to what effected the route we are going, it seems that the HR Giger Estate was not a Fan of using a lot of HR Giger Aesthetic and so that was Toned Down even Further...

There was NOTHING that stood out as Bio-Mechanical as in the HR Giger Aesthetic in Prometheus, the Horrors from the Black Goo were more Organic, the Ship being more Synthetic/Mechanical.

Likewise with Alien Covenant we only really had the Juggernaught and Docking Scorpion like Ship that had a loose HR Giger Aesthetic, the Organisms we saw lacked that HR Giger Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic that the Classic Xenomorph and Sill from Species had.

So when you look at the Xenomorph in Alien Covenant in part it looks like a Work in Progress... which Ridley Scott had referred to it as...

If we DONT want it to be that route, then its a case of do we just go to LV-426 and show there are Eggs that have been there for Thousands of Years (How do you Prove the Date).  And then what of David and his Xenomorph and what went down on Planet 4?  We just Ignore that?

We could Speculate that David just tried to make a Knock Off and Failed and Decided to go and Mix the Xenomorph and Neomorph and pass it off as the Fruits of his Labor?

In Hindsight had FOX not considered some Complaints about Prometheus, and Stood by what Ridley Scott had intended then we would NOT have been in this MESS.

They simply could have given Fans Xenomorphs in a Different way i could think of a Number of Ways to go and give Direct Clues and Answers that would NEVER had lead to Alien Covenant.

Alien Covenant in Part Happened because of HOW do you do a Sequel to Prometheus and Introduce the Xenomorph and then THROW in Human Characters... that would also have to be about where David and Dr Shaw go!

Maybe all we can do now is try and think of some kind of Damage Limitation rather than to Ignore what we seen so far.

There could be some LIGHT in all of this, if they decide to go for the Xenomorph being the Source of the GOO, but then the Goo is something else that makes little Sense, unless they go to show us the Sacrificial Scene is NOT the way they Create Life at all.  Well i think that depends on Interpretation of the GOO.

I do have a FanBoys Pleasing Explanation that would Conflict the Sacrificial Scene leading to Mankind. I think some Fans would actually like that though if it RULED out the Engineers Created us.

BigDave

I actually think that the original Alien monster looked more organic, more real and alive than the xenomorphs in AC. I think it might have to do with CGI not being used at the time. It was a man in a suit and you saw very little of the monster, but when you did, it looked real: smooth motions, drooling jaws etc.

Giger's art is biomechanical, and the creature doesn't look real in his art, not living, but the creature in the movie does.

I kind of Understand where your coming from, the Xenomorph in Alien was some kind of Organism more than a Machine, it was very ALIEN and it had that HR Giger Aesthestic that was brought to LIFE.

After the First ALIEN we saw these more Bio-Mechanical Aesthetic get Toned Down with each Movie, and with Alien Covenant the Xenomorph looks VERY Organic in Comparison.

The Classic Version seems to have what look like some Mechanical Elements to it, Pipes and the Like, its Exo-Skeleton looked like a Suit of Sorts.

40,000 species of spider on Earth

https://www.insectidentification.org/spiders.asp

...I'd imagine hundreds or thousands of xeno types? 

David created type 1,536 out of 1,535.

So far Davids creation is a failure...killing less than 200 humans(and one dog)in 300 years....(More humans have died on Earth slipping on banana peels I'd imagine)

Well, there's not likely going to be an AC2 so whether David created the xeno-variant we see in Alien or not is open to debate (particularly since he is not the creator in the novelization).

I prefer the view that David has a screw loose, believing he has created this perfect organism. You could argue that the Deacon (on the mural) is more perfect. The Deacon born by the Engineer is fully developed, 4 extremities, (as is David's "creation") but the chestburster in Alien is not and seems very vulnerable. David's "creation" also runs on for legs and is, therefore, quicker and more lethal. The Deacon could have been a much deadlier predator - the perfect organism.

I prefer seeing the Space Jockey as old as Dallas says it is, and connected to the outbreak on LV-223.

"(particularly since he is not the creator in the novelization)."

I think as discussed before its hard to say what is Canon, as this seemed to be ADF just adding something that was NEVER in the Drafts, the Drafts indicated more so that David was the Creator.

I will add that again for the RECORD... i too think the route that David as the Creator and the Space Jockey as being something that was on LV-426 for Less than 20 Years are TOTALLY the Wrong Path to take.

Until we have a Conclusion then things can be changed i just hope they offer a Explanation for what David had done instead.   But it would likely NOT be touched on and become a Conflict and Considered a Oversight.

The chances of a Direct Sequel to Alien Covenant are SLIM, i think IF we get a Continuation then maybe it would be a AFTERMATH of what ever would have happened in a Alien Covenant 2.

However with DISNEY in Charge and how they seem to like things done, i do think there is a SLIM chance of offering a Continuation to Alien Covenant.... i would NOT be surprised if we get a Prequel Reboot.

Or a Movie that goes to LV-426 on the other side of the Moon to where Hadleys Hope is, and they Discover a Partially Buried Pyramid and when they go there, they Discover a Queen and Ancient Eggs and then show some Derelict Type Ships in Hangers with Egg Cargo ready to go, but their Pilots did not manage to Leave the Place.

A return to LV-426 would be interesting. They dig up the Derelict and discover that the eggs are, in fact, in a cave under the Derelict (just as Kane says). This cave leads to something . . .

@BigDave and @chli, I like the sound of that. There is so much that could be done with this universe that we haven't seen yet. Here, for example, is a thought...

The Engineer ships have triple 'vaginal' openings on the front. Why? Wouldn't it be nice to see some kind of ship that had a set of equivalent 'male' parts. It 'mates' with the Derelict for some mysterious purpose.

I think maybe this would be WHAT some Fans would like, NOT every Fan but i am sure MOST would prefer something to SHOW that David is NOT the Creator of the Xenomorph.

There are some Conflicts with what the Prequels could have shown, as far as the WHOLE aspect of the Derelict and its Contents.

While there are some Aesthetic Differences between the Xenomorph and Ships, they are VERY SIMILAR the Franchise does-not give us any Indication of the Eggs Origins prior to the Prequels apart from that a Queen can lay them... but this does-not 100% Prove that they come from a Queen, or that this means 100% that David is not the Originator. 

The Space Jockey also has some Differences but lets NOT get in to that ;)

The Main Conflicts really with the Prequels is for me, that REGARDLESS of the Eggs Origins, and WHAT the Space Jockey is... it DOES-NOT appear like that Ship had been there for Under 20 Years!

The other BIG Conflict from ALIEN is indeed the CARGO HOLD... which certainly would have to be HALF the size to FIT inside the Ship as Indicated.

So MAYBE a Visit to LV-426 and Reveal that the Eggs are Stored in Underground Silo's could be a way to Please a Majority of the Fans.. well Certainly at least 50% i would say.

@hox

Maybe the Engineers have Smaller Shuttle Ships like Dr Jerkoff's?  That Dock via those Holes?

Ha ha. That would be Giger on Bling. Can't see Disney going for it, somehow!