Comments (Page 422)
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Lindeloff did not create much of what we got, it was still based off Jon Spaights Alien Engineers.
FOX felt that the Engineers ideas were something to concentrate on more and to tone down the Xenomorph connection as far as being a kind of literal Prequel, and having to show case Eggs, Face Huggers and Chest Busters.
Prometheus had flaws for sure, Lindeloffs drafts were not as untidy as the actual movie we ended up with, and as far as sequels, FOX felt in hindsight cutting the Xenomorph out and moving away from Alien was a mistake and that actually showing the Creation of the Xenomorph and leading up to how it arrived on the Derelict on LV-426 was the way to go.
Which gave us Alien Covenant by Harper and Logan and well this story was even more of a hash job and mess.
Indeed David would apear to have no morals, these would stem from how he was viewed and intended, because lets Face it, it appears he was a Creation to Showcase the Greatness of Peter Weyland and so Davids creation was a Monument to his achievements so that Weyland can be like... "look at the greatness i have achieved", making him feel Godlike to a degree, while the other reason is to be used as a Tool, to perform tasks that would be more difficult, Psychically and Psychologically for a Human.
David however was allowed more freedom in his programing, and he would see that he is SUPERIOR to Humans, and he would see the FLAWS and Evil of Mankind (exactly the same Flaws that would want the GODS to eradicate us). David would therefor see NO reason why he should be a servant to Mankind and that actually he and his KIND should naturally be inheritances of the Galaxy, as they are the Un-Natrual Evolution of Mankind, in that if we Evolved from Apes, we had reached our Peak of Evolution (only Genetically Manipulating ourselves we can Evolve more, maybe like the Engineers did) but we had created Synthetic Life in our own Image that is David and we created something more Superior than ourselves.
So David would view Mankind no more than we would look at a Monkey in the Zoo, and indeed the Engineers maybe viewed us in a similar way.
Regarding Dr Shaw, i think she could have been taught some degree of communication with the Engineers, i think she would still need David to help her though but then the BIG thing is what motives do any beings they discover have, and how would they receive Dr Shaw.
This indeed was a INTERESTING Question, one of the BIG ONES for a Prometheus sequel, one that if the Engineers simply hated Mankind and saw one of us turn up, and would simply want to eradicate her, would make for a limited Story.... Unless there was something they could gain/use her for. This allowed us to ponder what would happen when Dr Shaw arrived, maybe these beings are Benevolent? Maybe they simply abandoned Mankind and would be interested to see a SINGLE Human and be Curious but feel no Threat from just ONE. But what if these beings are Far from Benevolent? Which is what RS had mentioned in the lead up to any sequel during the post 2014 period.
A lot could depend on WHAT they could gain from Dr Shaw, and so back then we could imagine WHY was we created for? If for example those Engineers had Engineered themselves to near Perfection that they lost the Need to Procreate, but Ultimately they would still be Mortal and while they may have Engineered themselves to Live for Longer Periods... eventually they may die out.... so seeing a FEMALE could be interesting....
If there whole Agenda was Creating something like the Xenomorph, then finding out that Human Females make for better Hosts or are needed to obtain a certain Perfection, then this would also give a good reason for the Engineers to appear interested in Dr Shaw.
So yes there was a lot that could have been explored in a sequel.... we have to ask did those Engineers on Paradise, know about Mankinds Creation? Our intended Destruction? If so after the disaster of LV-223 maybe they decided to Wash their Hands Clean and Abandon us and that Terrible Place... If this was the case then SURELY having a HUMAN and a Sub-Creation Turn up could certainly Change a lot of things.
So there was a Lot of Questions that a David and Shaw arriving to Paradise could have answered, that with Alien Covenant had been brushed under the carpet... hopefully we can get some insight to the Engineers Agenda, History and Why they never came back at some point in future.
Well i think this is good news for BR2049 shows a movie can be good, despite not being a Box Office Hit, i think also its not quite the Long Run Time... this does however restrict those who would see the movie but i think the movie mainly attracted those who were a Fan of the Original
I hope 2049 gets the cinematography and production design nods. It is such a dman beautiful film!! As for Covenant... I wish it received more love, but the only category it would have a chance in, at any awards show this year, would be effects or maaaaybe set design. I think Fassbender may have been on a few long lists of best actor though.
Yeah, they also pour some love on that pile of cack Dunkirk. What a wretched, dull movie that was. The final confirmation that we all live in some kind of cracked virtual simulation will be if it wins any awards for its risible sound mix.
And I forgot, Scott's obsession with Fassbender...
You could have thousands of ways to handle the encounter between Shaw and the Engineers, even she could have learned the language from the robot before hypersleep (being an archaeologist she must have been familiar with ancient languages already). It would have been not necessary for David to be an antagonist ... but well, he has no morals so that's enough for making him a psycho.
The things which characterize Ac is laziness and greed and pretentiousness.
joylitt
I don't mind BR49 winning an award for any category, except music (as that does not compare to Vangelis). .
Personally, I want closure first to the prequels, then Bloomkamp's Alien 5 to give justice to the Ripley story and closure once and for all and then have a new trilogy far in the future or somewhere in between.
I will now take a Look and back to the OT, at what Blomkamp and Ridley Scotts ideas would involve...
BLOMKAMPS ALIEN 5
His Plot seem to discount Alien 3 on wards as simply never happening, and give us a alternative Aliens sequel, one where Ripley and Co went on to live a happy normal life... UNTIL some Asian Company has obtained a Engineer Ship or likely the Derelict some 20+ years after the events of Aliens.
Newt appears to be a Pilot of some kind, and so does she come across what this company are doing and then informs Ripley? or does she stick her nose in and gets captured which prompts Ripley and Hicks to turn up, and set about to Sabotage the Companies plans to exploit the Xenomorph?
We see a Queen gets on the loose on some Space Outpost, it appears we will see Xenomorphs, but then we also see a varation of the Xenomorph Egg and Face Hugger and no doubt a different Xenomorph, the Question being are these another Cargo (RS had pondered the Derelict having 7 different ones) or are these other Xenomorphs experiments the company had conducted?
We then arrive at what appears to be some Egg Morph, or other Mutation of Humanoids and so this could be something interesting... FINALLY it appears we shall see Ripley come across and fuse with some Engineer Technology in some kind of Space Jockey Suit and NO DOUBT this will replace the Power-loader vs Queen Aliens Finale.
RIDLEY SCOTTS ALIEN AWAKENING
The set up here is to continue the eventual route towards the back door of Alien, were we will see the Chess Pieces move towards this event, and the next stop will be a movie that will SET-UP likely the 3rd Movie that would Tie Directly to the Derelict. Which means the 3rd movie will involve Davids Creations, getting Evolved and in their Thousands on a Engineer Ship that ends up in the Zeta 2 Reticili System which is NO WHERE near Origae-6 we can assume.
So Ridley Scotts next movie would have bridged the Gap Between Alien Covenant and this 3rd Movie above that would connect to Alien. It appears David will be taking the Covenant and its Colonist to Origae-6 and at some point during the journey the company will receive Davids Transmission and wil no doubt be sending at least ONE ship to Investigate and arrive at Origae-6. While a Engineer Ship arrives back at Planet 4 to discover Davids work and will want to find the culprit.. So a Company Ship and Engineers will be TWO of the 3-4 incoming Parties that will no doubt arrive at Origae-6, were we can assume would be years after David has arrived there first. What David will do during the journey, what would he do to the Colonist and what are his plans for Origae-6 are all unknown at present.
Its implied he sees the Colonist as Lamps for his experiments, but if the movie is less focus on Xenomorph, it cant be a simply case of awakening Colonist few at a time and do what he pleases with them. Because this has to be a very Xenomorph type movie... unless creating loads of Eggs with no actual Chest Busters until late on would class as a not so Xenomorph movie.
I PERSONALLY think Ridley Scotts plan is more interesting, than what would basically be a Fan Service Ret-con Mash Up of Aliens meets Alien Resurrection.
I will add the set up for the sequel to Alien Covenant is also problematic if Davids Agenda is the destruction of Mankind, or use of those Colonist for his Experiments and how he has informed the company of what he has been doing.
This does not set up a GOOD movie if this is the route David is going, because again all he has to do try and get to LV-223 and get a Engineer ship and Bombard Earth, but then its saying if Company Ships could intercept him before LV-223 so this would be risky due to the lack of Military Ability of the Covenant and closer proximity to Earth with LV-223. But then David could just change the Colonist on the Covenant into a Ship that is carrying Eggs and send it off in the direction of Earth, while David uses the Lander to go else where with some Eggs.
The longer route would be to go to Origae-6 and begin one by one to take Colonist down and turn them into Eggs etc, so then he has Thousands of Eggs waiting on Origae-6 for the company to come across.
But either of these would make a ALIENY movie and Ridley Scott hints the next one would not be much about the Xenomorph, i think the "what kind of a world would David Create" comment and the dialog in Alien Covenant from David "if we are kind it would be a kind world" seem to set up what Davids plans will be.
" All he needed to do was take the Juggernaut to Earth and Canister it. Everything he needed to learn about the Engineers was contained within the Juggernaut he was flying."
I can totally understand this, if we are to look at Davids Agenda, if this was purely to eradicate Mankind, then indeed WHY not once Dr Shaw is in Cryo-Sleep, detour the Ship and Bombard Earth. Then head back to LV-223 and pick up some more Cargo/Ship and then head to Paradise/Planet 4 and Bombard them.
This would be the logical way to go, if you was David and your intention was to eradicate Mankind and the Engineers.
The set up for Prometheus 2 would have been Problematic and we can see why the Direction was changed, but then it may not have changed so much... because the alternative would have been Dr Shaw getting her Wish and then finding some beings on Paradise. What we are left with then is.
How would they react to her?
Would they welcome her, give her the answers? If so would these answers please her and be happy? If they are totally angered by Mankind and when they see her they would consider it a insult for her coming there for answers... would they just kill her on sight?
How much of a movie could Dr Shaw and Engineers take up? Unless they are Benevolent and can Telepathically speak to her...
I feel that something more Sinister would have been better, and i wonder if this was the intention, only i feel we would have had more screen time with Dr Shaw and seen some interaction with some Engineers, and we have to remember David would be the Translator, and if he has pieced together what the Engineers had been up to i would have pondered does David make a Covenant with the Engineers, by telling them what he found out from LV-223 in regards to Dr Shaw and propose maybe Dr Shaw was the missing piece of the Puzzle to create a Perfect Organism and so throws Dr Shaw under the bus? This was the route i was going to take with my Prometheus 2. Before David then breaks his Covenant with the remaining Engineers.
Some of these do have some Alien Franchise loos vibes to, and i think Blomkamps aim with these are to show that he can make a Alieny Sci-Fi movie, those shorts are very very Sci-Fi Channel Low Budget and not so well done... but they are not as bad as Sharknado lol
I think Blomkamp has great ideas, and visually he also has a good vision, i think he needs a good writer to put his ideas to a better Script, however i am not 100% confidence he is the ideal person to be the Director on a Project as i am not really sold he could give us anything more than a tacky low budget kind of feel as far as Characters and how they appear on screen.
I would be open for him to be given some role though, but i am TOTALLY against doing ANY Alien Franchise movie that brings back or covers Hicks and Newt and also the only Ripley movie that i feel should be tackled would be a sequel to Alien Resurrection.
Well there is a bit to tell in this tale... and Ridley Scott knew where he wanted to take it after Alien Covenant, Ridley Scott has also said we would begin to see how the Xenomorph was created and it felt Bio-Mechanical and he has also hinted we have not yet arrived to the 1979 Xenomorph. So there is some Evolution to go.
The theme with Prometheus is Creator Sub-Creates, Sub-Creation Rebels, and Sub-Creates and Repeat which logically means that Davids Creation will turn out not as planned and Rebel against him too
its probably programmed to grow at the same rate as human hair. those who designed the earliest models would have wanted to make them as 'human' as possible
Welcome. This forum doesn't really deal with merch from what I have seen. On the main Scified page I think there is a merch link for shirts and such.
Welcome. Ridley has said a lot of things over the years and then different writers and drafts were involved too (many members can and have expanded on that, but that is the broad brush version).
It has been discussed having David fail and possibly birthing the xeno proper and then dying.
What these posts remind me of is the huge story telling potential which was discarded in favour of an ALIEN retread structure.
1) The contextualising of the Xenomorph within a creation mythos.
2) The Shaw/David story.
The whole David wants to stop mankind from moving out into the Galaxy is daft and doesn't sit within the rules of the story. All he needed to do was take the Juggernaut to Earth and Canister it. Everything he needed to learn about the Engineers was contained within the Juggernaut he was flying.
The other hugely unsatisfying aspect of him recreating/upgrading the Xenomorph so "the wolves can slaughter the lambs" ignores the parameters laid down in both A & P.
The Xenomorph is about reproduction for its own sake with out moral or spiritual purpose. Its entirely non consensual and counter intuitive and over sexualised. It is therefore the result of breaking the rules of creationism which Prometheus was setting up. It is not a new species or the next layer it is an unintentional weapon which merges the mechanical with the biological.
"Rushing in" David to be the creator with his creation overload programme ret conning his performance in Prometheus which was objectively curious and dangerous for that reason alone, is going to look like a big fail years down the road. Ironically the performances of K and Stelline remind me the greatest failure of AC is to take David from the curious ambivalent robot to the moustachioed stereotypical villain. Even the awakening of some kind of sexually driven narrative where he hits on Shaw/Walter and then Daniels simply comes across as a lot of plot point convenient bait and switch.
Considering the overall technology required to make something like David work, I'd be inclined to think that hair growth wouldn't be too far of a leap
Incredibly refreshing to see this kind of thing OP, and a shout out to the quote from @Lawrence of Arabia - my thoughts exactly and I couldn't have put them better myself.
It's easy for the rumor mill to run rampant and sweep up people's perspectives along the way.
I must admit that I would like to see what Blomkamp could do with an Alien movie, but I have some reservations because of the way he appears to be carving out his own niche. I think Neill is exploring an ultra AI route, and developing his own series based on AI society ( this probably what RS saw and felt that there was an overlap into his ideas and possible conflict of interests in story development.
An example of his most recent AI stuff is Adam which is a sort of mini series.
I also get the feeling that an Alien project could be too restrictive for the kind of directions he might want to go.
They appear to be different, by how they have been cut open, but sure they could be similar organism or indeed related by experiments, and so the other one pterodactyl-like which has no teeth could be the same kind of creature just without its teeth shown, also the angle of the pterodactyl-like creature in the movie is in a way that it would not need extra detail like its teeth, due to the POV not showing that side of the head in any detail.
They certainly could be TWO of the same Organisms then, or related where one is a evolution of the other and so a work in progress for sure.
dk - I know she doesn't belong to any of the categories mentioned, but can I include Olga? 8D
That is a nice quote and indeed a interesting one, i think maybe we need to look at David as a Psychopath and Sociopath and Narcissistic too. I think indeed David did not have much contempt for Mankind in Prometheus, he even did mock Dr Shaw when he said "i did not know you had it in you" it was quite open to how David would evolve and Dr Shaw at the end of Prometheus, we had Dr Shaw with NOTHING left, and David who has ambition he is finally free of Weyland and he does not want to just remain a motionless Head... So they both needed each other, David needs Dr Shaw so that he can be put back together again, and David will have to convince Dr Shaw that he could get her the answers she wants but she would have to put him back together.
So it set up a interesting Dynamic, and the Ending of Prometheus did seem like there was room for them to work together. But following Alien Covenant as far as the Trailers and The Crossing Prologue and comments by RS and Fassbender. It did appear that any disregard for each other had turned to mutual respect in the months after Prometheus, we do not know however if David was simply playing Dr Shaw all along to just gain his Agenda.
And so the kindness towards Dr Shaw is a interesting one, the Crossing appeared to show there was one, but we cant be sure if this was a ruse by David to manipulate her.
I think its all down to interpretation, and i may interpret things a bit wrong? I think we need to look at the reasons for Davids Agenda at the End of Prometheus until Alien Covenant.
Dr Shaw has nothing, she would be willing to take the punt on meeting these beings on Paradise, even if doing so would risk her own life, she may get NO answers and Death, she may get ANSWERS and then Death, the Chances of her getting Answers and being taken in and allowed to live a happy life would be somewhat low... who knows, you cant guarantee the outcome.
David would have his own Agenda, at first he was quite happy to leave LV-223 and be in one piece, but knowing Dr Shaw wanted her answers i feel he was intrigued to why, i think David was fascinated with the Engineers, their Technology and Agenda and maybe he had figured out quite a lot of it. I think he still however would have a lot of caution as he knows how the Engineer he last met reacted to him, and how this Engineer seemed to have little concern for Mankinds wants...
so for Davids Agenda, going to a Home-World of these beings, if David suspects the welcome may not be with open arms, then he may realize there is a chance they will give NO answers, and David and Dr Shaw would just end up NO MORE and so for Davids own Personnel Gain, he would surely be thinking if he can DESTROY the Engineers, then from the ruins he could find out more about them, than the risk of a direct face to face confrontation. David in Destroying them would be able to Study their Culture and maybe gain some of those Answers Dr Shaw wanted by going this route.
IF David did grow fond of Dr Shaw before the Final Journey, then by Destroying the Engineers would also be a means of Protecting her. I think David thus did care for her, but we have to remember his motives are likely for his own Selfish Gains, so he would not be willing to Sacrifice himself or his needs for Dr Shaw's.
I think he may have had some deluded vision of a future they could have together, i was drawn to this prior to seeing Alien Covenant and indeed the Extras we see David touches upon how he wanted to Wash the Engineers World Clean so HE and Dr Shaw could start a new.... prior to AC release we had some leaked Set Photos and Props which included Baby Human Skulls (these turned out to be Engineer infants) but i was thinking at the time, did David manage to offer Dr Shaw a way to Create Life, and that despite destroying the Engineers so Dr Shaw has NOTHING now... David maybe proposes that he can help her conserve a Child?
As it ends up, it does seem David had this intention but we dont know how perverted and twisted Davids vision for him and Dr Shaw to start a NEW on this world... I think Dr Shaw may have had some proposal by David which she rejected, regarding creating of Life, and so i think as well as being rejected by Dr Shaw due to Davids Feelings being more than Platonic i feel that David became a bit deranged, and to him i think he felt that using Dr Shaw for his Experiments to him was him doing her a Favor, in that he could Create Life from her... at this point it was all about David's Agenda.. he puts himself first and i think he would rather have it where Dr Shaw became what she did, rather than her live without David. It was a kind of if you WONT be mine then you will be NO ONES.
It would be nice to find out what really went on in their relationship as indeed towards the end, the way Dr Shaw was used by him, certainly does not seem like LOVE, but i think David has his own Agenda first and he has a Perverted way of thinking about what is companionship and love and he certainly appeared to be a Psychopath and Sociopath.
RS/Fassbender had said David cared for Dr Shaw, and also said their relationship was like a Marriage but it appears something went very wrong, and well Dr Shaw got a kind of Divorce that she was not expecting.
David tells us exactly the title of the painting and the artist. What he doesn't tell us is how Weyland managed to snaffle it from the National Art Gallery in Trafalgar Square! Likewise with Michelangelo's statue of David, which is about as priceless a piece of art as you could hope to find. The real significance (along with the fabulously expensive Carlo Bugatti throne chairs) is to demonstrate Weyland's incredible wealth.
If you go to see the painting in person, you might be surprised at just how big it is. It's huge!
Ati WOW you are demanding to watch outakes of some other trash that didn't make into Alien Covenant final cut but you say Blade Rubber 2049 has unimportant and visually uninteresting parts that should have been cut. You have impeccable taste, I have to say.
Any random passage of Blade Runner 2049 is infinitely more visually complex and interesting than the whole Alien Covenant. Take the cinematography alone: one movie has Roger Deakins, the other has some dude using a crappy blue filter during the entire movie. Ridley is just jelous.
And why would not here about the Great Director Fritz Long that death is not solution to are unrequited love, Is no use to kill your lover as then you love any chance of being love back, and killing your love's lover will ensure that your love will hate you.
Further more David mocked her (I didn't know what you have in you), he was a creep about her (knowing how his mother and father died), killed Charley, but indeed in the end she was saved by him (he was also saved in return). But he also bombard the Engineers so that she could not get her answers, wants to experiment on her to "elevate her" (not knowing what effect will have on her psychic/soul). Yet she was still kind to him, Where was his kindness towards her? And finally he mocked her with creating the Xenomorph from her eggs, so they kill humanity, a thing for which she was willing to die to save.
I agree, if it draws from the established comic books or the AvP 2 game we'd be in for a decent cross-over. But I also agree the existing AvP movies need to be disassociated from the franchise haha
BigDave - Blade Runner 2049 is a beautiful movie but there are some not so important and visually not so interesting scenes in it which should have been cut. :/
dk/BigDave - I don't agree with you. Only the mouth (to be more precise its teeth) seems to be different, but the movie scene itself does not reveal the head of the creature as you can see in the movie still I added. Plus, it is possible that its denture is an extra.
Dark Nebula's profound thread informs us (I added its link in my previous comment) that there were two 'pterodactyl-like' creatures in David's lab. One of them can be seen on the table next to the mysterious eggs (the still I added) and there is another one in a dish. Please visit Dark Nebula's topic for more images.
I think the one in the girl's hands is the dish creature.
And I believe that the same dissected creature can be seen in the OT image and the movie still. The holes on the bodies are very similar in my opinion:
Still:
From this article:
But, of course, anything is possible...
I think down the line Disney will Ret-con AVP, because well if done right it can make $$$$ from Merchandise and Marketing, the Movies we had simply followed a flawed Plot that contradicted the Alien Time-line. As well as being a bit... poor
I feel David felt mistreated by Mankind, he was given more free-will than Walter who would have only saw his purpose to serve... like a Toaster.... David had more Free-will and i feel that he had Emotions and wanted to be treated no different to a Human.
Inside he resented Mankind, because they made him feel like a 2nd Class Life Form yet he was superior.
Dr Shaw treated him differently, he would have grown fond of her through he kindness, and then this grew to Love, i feel he then started to make some moves on Dr Shaw or she realized Davids Love was more than Platonic love however Dr Shaw could never feel the same way back, she may even be shocked and uneasy if she found out David felt more than Friendship.
So its likely Dr Shaw had shunned Davids Advances, which David then took as being betrayed, and he could not see Dr Shaw being apart from him... i feel she then tried to escape, and failed, and David may have then tried to keep her against her wishes and one day a incident happened that lead to her Death, or something that led to David using her in his Experiments in a Perverted way that through her Body he could give her Creation.
This is how i interpret the whole thing.... but thats not to say i am right.
in life however, we do experience people who fall in love with someone deep thats not reciprocated and we can see this what was once LOVE become Rejection and soon Hatred, i knew someone who Loved a Girl so deep, she was out of his league and yet she saw him as a good guy not like other blokes, he took this as he had a chance, and when he declared his feelings, she never felt the same and at this moment became odd with him, it freaked her out... she stopped being around him, he started to stalk her, she rejected and warned him off.... and his LOVE turned to Bitter Hate towards her.
This can happen in life, and i feel it is what happened with Dr Shaw
AvP2 (game), Rage Wars books and Fire and Stone comic-epos - best AvP. Need something like that.
I don't think that we should treat with condescension to AvP movies. No. There is no debate or opinions. This movies must be retconed or go into oblivion.
I can't recall Shaw treating David badly, maybe just maternally (as a child at the end) and with mistrust (because of Charley, and he mocking her, ...) . But that maybe completes the Oedipian theme, killing the father and f***in the mother...
For me, that reference to the Nat King Cole's song remake only fits the first verse (even that not all because David is far from being wise, not even understanding the Meaning of his poem), while the second only in the most perverse way can be true. Experimenting on women's sexual organs is rape, not love.
I agree with only little Predator and Engineer involvement. Like side characters not the main event.
Alex Garland should fight for a Dredd sequel instead of aliens, or something entirely new.
Indeed and it fits perfectly because Ridley Scotts Engineers are half the intended size... but i guess so is SNOKE now ;)
He has some ideas thats for sure.....
And the Passion for Certain...
Just a Ret-con of Alien 3 and Happy Ending for Ripley (aka Cash Deal for Miss Weaver) and i pass thank you
