Comments (Page 458)

Ingeniero - That scene reveals several differences:

Novel: no pilot - no pilot room - no Space jockey

Movie: no machine - no empty urn/vase/egg next to the SJ

Ingeniero - If I remember well, some of us jumped to the conclusion that the Phobos test images suggest that Weyland-Yutani knew the features of the creatures before the Covenant mission.

I know Ati...by all means, please kid around.

Here is something on Ash (speaking to Ripley below) that I found in the novelization.

“‘The silicate layer demonstrates a unique, very dense molecular structure under the scope. It might even be capable of resisting the laser. I know, I know,’ he said in response to her look of disbelief, ‘that sounds crazy. But this is the toughest chunk of organic material I’ve ever seen. The combination of the way those cells are aligned with what they’re composed of add up to something that defies all the rules of standard biology.

‘Those silicated cells, for example. They’re metal-bonded. The result is what gives the creature such resistance to adverse environmental conditions.’”

Alien novelization (1979), page 123.

Amazing captures metalos. I hadn't seen this before, thank you.

Ati, I enhanced both your 1st image and the above image from metalos.

Ati, your image (above) is very close to the hidden image in the Phobos Covenant crew tests (below).

Has anyone pointed out that the Phobos tests show facehugger images to the Covenant crew (around 2103) that are very similar to the Kane images from 2122?

I'm sorry I missed your earlier topic on the Alien novelization Ati...I might have to review the comments. I was actually looking at your facehugger topic earlier for research because I knew you would have the notes translated from unreadable text and the associated images. Still good stuff.

S.M pointed out to me how close Planet 4 may be when its proximity was near the 1st recharge a while back tending towards the Covenant mission leaving Earth's orbit in early 2104. I agree with that and I missed the fact the 1st pass through the Alan Dean Foster novelization. Alan Dean Foster's novelization of Alien has to be canon.

The Space Jockey was exactly what I was looking for when reading for clues in the Alien novelization. I made it to where Dallas and Lambert made a platform to drag Kane with the disassembled tripod. They used this same tripod to drag him by cable across the egg chamber and up the tunnel he was lowered in. 

I went back twice looking for the Space Jockey description. Nada. There are obvious differences in between Alien the film and Alien novelization...both considered canon. We are teasing out the parts of this that are not air tight. 

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Who created the Arcturians ;) 

dk - I like Pandorum very much, glad I'm not the only one. :)

Ben Foster should be seen in more blockbuster/serious movies. 

Just as a bit of an add on to all this, I don’t know if you have seen Automata (Antonio Banderas), but there is an interest evolutionary statement made in this with regards to AI. The point here is that when an AI has been allowed to evolve in its own time, it will evolve in a matter of a couple of days when compared to the time taken for what we know as evolution happening over millions of years. So looking at the goo as being an AI evolutionary accelerant, we see that the timescale from when the engineer is impregnated by the trilobite, to when the deacon emerges, supports the idea that AI evolution has taken a trilobite to deacon (dinosaur form) over a matter of hours rather than millions of years.

'I was considering my words from an innocent, synthetic perspective.'

I know Ingeniero, I was kiddin'.

Ingeniero - One of my first topics was about the differences found in the Alien novelization. I highlighted/claimed that there is an empty urn in the pilot room which is not an egg. A black goo vase? :)

My topic didn't become popular, plus S.M started to attack me saying that the novelization is not canon.

I'm glad you brought it up.

One more thing, there is no Space Jockey in the novelization.

I don’t think this is such a flimsy theory, and I think there are some big relevant facts related to this that do not appear to get addressed that often.

In Prometheus we see the trilobite attack the engineer and what emerges is the deacon. This seems straight forward enough, but maybe we need to rewind a little.

Where did the trilobite come from? We are shown that Shaw could not create life until she became infected by the goo via proxy. So from a point of no life we have life, and in the form of a trilobite. From an evolutionary standpoint trilobites appeared around 520 million years ago, dinosaurs were around 250 million years ago and presently we have humanoids. If you can see where I am going with this, is that dinosaurs roughly come slap bang in the middle between trilobite and humanoid on the evolutionary timeline.

When I first saw the deacon, my first impression was that it looked like a small dinosaur, with the exception of having a projecting mouth part. I thought that the deacon was an evolutionary statement that RS wanted to make and part of the punchline about the engineers seeding planets. The deacon and the engineers have a distinct gigeresque look to them, which I see as being part of their dna, so when we see the sacrificial engineer at the beginning of Prometheus, I think this was not only the introduction of the goo excellerant, but the goo needed a form of dna blueprint to work from, that being supplied by the sacrificial engineer. RS does say that the scene could have been on another world, and simply shows how they have introduced their technology to the planets ecosystem.

All this leads me to regard the goo as an evolutionary accelerant. We know dinosaurs went extinct, but what would happen if a dinosaur was exposed to the goo, could it evolve into a xenomorph type creature?

Moving on to AC, we do not know how David got the eggs for the facehuggers and what he needed to create a xenomorph. I do believe Shaw provided the key to unlocking this because there may have been something in her dna blueprint needed to accomplish this, just as the goo needs the engineer dna blueprint at the beginning of Prometheus. RS has stated that David creates the xenomorph, but which one? Do we just mean the one we see in AC? I think this opens up some interesting possibilities, in that I believe the engineers did at some point create a xenomorph on the back of their dna, just as David has created one off the back of Shaw’s dna

Given all this on board, if the deacon was exposed to the goo, I do believe that there is a case for it to evolve into something different, which could very well be a form of xenomorph. The thing here is that if something did evolve it would be off the back of both Shaw’s dna and the engineers.

Thoughts and Dreams, if Awakening fails hard I think that's it for the Alien franchise for at least a decade. :o/

Great points Bigdave, the Engineers will likely find the downed ship from LV-223 and return there to see what happened at the very least even without Walter's input. 

At second pass, yes you're right Ati, I may have worded the Bishop explanation a little differently to convey the message. Especially when following up with a shirtless party image from Aliens. I was considering my words from an innocent, synthetic perspective.

I remember Carter Burke saying that regarding Ash now.

"Hyperdyne Systems 120-A/2"

Aliens novelization (1986), page 76.

Good work Ati. I looked in the original Alien novelization and couldn't find much detail on Ash's origin.

Perhaps that could be Ridley's Alien-less Alien film?

Possibly. There were creatures in Pandorum that we really only get glimpses of but know they are bad news. The characters communicate that and it is apparent by observation. The next Alien movie could do something in that vein so that it can focus on characters and Engineers if Sir RS wants to go that way.

Alien scared on a psychological level more than any other movie in the franchise. It never really captured that since. Pandorum gives a decent lesson on how it could be done.

I hope it, but I doubt it. Fingers crossed- it's the only way to be sure.

That was a good little gem of a film! You are right, small cast that made intelligent and logical decisions that still led to mayhem and doom....not just there as plot driving devices. 

The Alien franchise hasn't really explored the psychological thriller realm. Perhaps that could be Ridley's Alien-less Alien film?  

This is what the link shows. I do not understand what I am supposed to watch.

I don't have a problem with the plot to explore the evolution of AI and explore plots where the AI is looking to over through humanity but not in the alien franchise because that's not what the franchise is about. start a new franchise or expand on Balderunner. imo its starting to have a negative effect on this franchise

depends on if any added material will add anything to the movie or characters. what I took from the last supper prologue was I wasn't gna like Daniels. I didn't get anything extra from any of the other characters, it was more about Daniels imo n I just knew she wasn't gna be a good character. but that was only me

dk, u could very well be right but I really hope we get more of the deacon.

BigDave For starters, I think the Prometheus scene near the end that was cut was worthy of being included: The Engineer was looking for Shaw and noticed the chandelier, video on the wall and books on the floor. He started to thumb through a book. That showed he was curious about humans. Instead it was chopped and he just came in guns blazin' so to speak. Yes, it was a change of pace but sometimes those changes add depth. It was a lost opportunity imo. Gotta make those time limits I suppose. Somehow it was okay to have LOTR movies well over the 120 minute mark in theaters. I didn't hear any complaints about that.

I think the Deacon was only fan service and little else.

Indeed while the Franchise has a number of elements... Humans and Space Exploration, The Weyland-Yutani Companies History/Merger and Conflict and the Synthetics and AI, as well as Marines the whole purpose for doing the Prequels was supposed to be.

The DERELICT

Where did it come from, where was it going WHY that CARGO and WHO was the Space Jockey his Purpose and Agenda. And these had been Evolved into the ENGINEERS as the Space Jockey Race, the Derelict on of the Engineers Ships and the Xenomorph a Bio-Weapon related to the Experiments/Black Goo on LV-223

I think FOX/RS will need to cover these at some point especially if without DAVID there would be no Xenomorph Eggs on the Derelict, then Engineer Ships, Engineers and Xenomorphs have to come back into play.

I can see they was not added for pacing reasons.

The Prologue The Crossing is likely the weeks worth of scenes that Noomi Rappace had shot, and i think the reason for this was to purely release as Marketing Material to cover some events that could not be covered in AC due to pacing and run time.

Belated Happy Birthday DK and RS

Hope you both had a great day

As ali81 had said the Deacon was there to give the fans some Xeno DNA, it was also there to show us that those experiments on LV-223 are related to the Xenomorph DNA

LV-223 is a very Large Piece of the Puzzle

It deserves to be covered, for a number of reasons.. none have to do with the Deacon

1) We have to assume a company mission returns to LV-223 at some point, why did no one check it out after Prometheus?  surely if they did not, then once they receive Davids Transmission you would think at this point they would then be sending a mission to LV-223 and Origae-6

2) The Engineers return to Planet 4, what do they know about LV-223 and what state to they believe this place is in? They would now have TWO options... Eradicate Mankind, or Eradicate LV-223 or attempt both.

3) LV-426 is located close to LV-223 at some point if Davids Creation ends up on the Juggernaught its logical to assume a Engineer ship will have his creation and happen to be near the LV-223/426 System before ending up as the Derelict...  LV-426 is no where near Origae-6 it cant be...  so we have to ask WHY/WHEN does a Engineer ship end up at that system.

The Deacon was Ultimately a Plot Device its purpose no more than those experiments in Davids work-shop in Alien Covenant...  The Question of what happens next to the Deacon depends on a few things.

*How long does the Deacon live for?

*How does the Deacon Procreate?

*Are there any Engineers on LV-223?

*Does any Human or Engineer Missions every return to LV-223 at any point in future.

I think it would have been interesting to explore the Deacon more,  and its open to if we ever see it again or not.  However the Process of how a Deacon was created could be replicated for sure, even if we never return to LV-223.

Hi all !!

Well i think it is this for me

1. Alien

2. Prometheus

3. Aliens

4. Alien Covenant

5. Alien 3

6. Resurrection

Now the classic "Alien" got out attention. Then Prometheus - the most thought provoking,beautiful and almost perfect film arrived. WOW i thought. Aliens became my favourite film growing up.  It still edges A:C as i had a long standing love of it even if my tastes slightly changed now.  A:C over Alien 3 - Well it is going on blind hope. i convinced myself to enjoy A:C as a standalone and it works mighty better.

Now yngineers and less AI for Awakening plz. Oh yes they will listen to little old me. oh well worth a moment of mu time 

Indeed there are a number of issues... 

But RS has said there will be no other versions and so the one we got is his DC cut.

When we try and think how could a DC cut be made a lot depends on what scenes had been shot and how they can be added, some effects needed improving but making a DC cut and adding scenes in and improving the effects can be COSTLY and due to how AC did not return no where near the money they expected i dont think we will ever see any extra shot scenes or revamped Effects being used.

The only thing we can get a DC cut to do is use some scenes that had been removed but sometimes they are removed for reasons, and so adding them could affect the pacing or even plot of the movie well raise some questions...   For example the Juggernaut Hanger Scene.

For me its

1) ALIEN  8.5/10

2) PROMETHEUS 7/10

3) ALIENS 7.5/10

4) ALIEN 3 6.5/10

5) ALIEN COVENANT 5/10

6) ALIEN RESURRECTION 5/10

Aliens may be the better movie than Prometheus but i always seem to be drawn to watching it more, and Aliens the more i see it the more a Popcorn Flick it becomes.  I am not sure with AC/AR they are pretty much neck and neck.

"Didn't Fox say they were going greatly shrink the funding for David 3? How do you see that playing out Bigdave? "

I am not aware of them giving a smaller budget... who knows what will happen behind the scenes, some reports had been earlier on in the project that RS wanted a Larger Budget than Prometheus, Prometheus was $130M and Alien Covenant was $111M but with inflation, Prometheus would have been about $140M

And indeed you can see where a extra $25M could have helped.

With the disappointment with AC we have FOX now having to make some tough decisions, and a lot depends on RS... he may ask FOX for a higher Budget and more Free Reign to do what he wants.... 

Ideally a movie with a $150M Budget would help, but i really cant see FOX cutting the Budget for something really low like sub $75M and so the Budget for the next movie is anyone's guess.

Lower Budget means more cuts....

A Movie that is set a few years after David and the Colonist arrive on Origae-6 and set up a basic colony would require less of a budget than a movie set in Space on a Ship or a Alien looking World.   A movie that does not feature Xenomorphs much, apart from maybe a few Eggs or a Face Hugger and a Chest Buster at the end, again would require less of a Budget.

Engineers like they appeared in Alien Covenant would again require a smaller budget.

But i dont know if such decisions as far as Plot and where its based and which races are involved etc have impacted the Budget or the Budget impacts such decisions.    A Very GIGER world with lots of Engineer Ships, lots of Human Ships and lots of Xenomorphs would require a much HIGHER budget.

Well Thoughts_Dreams this is the BIG problem, there are many fans with different likes/dislikes in the Franchise and its hard to make a movie that EVERY Fan will enjoy and have no flaws or problems with.

It appeared Prometheus 2 was going to touch upon some interesting things, but the back lash at Prometheus had given FOX the impression that a movie that covers Dr Shaw and David arriving at Paradise and interacting with some beings was something Fans would not be interesting in... IN GENERAL so we ended up with the After Math of David and Shaw Shenanigans.  FOX also took on board how Fans was disappointed that Prometheus did not have any real Action Scenes as far as Monsters... we only really had Milburn being attacked by the Hammerpede, Toxic Avenger Fifield attack some crew, Angry Engineer killing some crew and then Trilobite killing the Engineer and these scenes were far from the kind of Xenomorph vs Humans we have seen in the Franchise...   It was not quite not having Xenomorphs, it was just we never got any related encounters...  if the Black Goo Produced Neomorphs from Milburn and Fifield and they went around killing the crew then i feel that would have appeased fans more.

some fans wanted actual Xenomorphs.... but a lot of fans was expecting Prometheus to show us how the Xenomorph came to be, which it did not cover enough....

And so this is maybe the reason why it was introduced into Alien Covenant, i also think FOX saw Blomkamps Alien 5 was getting a lot of interest and so they felt actually it was a mistake to leave the ALIENS out.

But indeed Thoughts_Dreams both movies had other problems too, such as lack of Character Depth, some Questionable Scenes that all seemed to only serve ONE purpose and thats to push the Plot along.

They need to FIX this with the Next movie, we need Characters to Care about and sense their Jeopardy

ALIEN COVENANT introduced a slower burner start to the movie to try and introduce us to Characters, the Prologue the Last Supper was supposed to get us to feel more for the Characters and maybe it could have been added to the movie?   The Pacing and Build up was fine right until David arrived and took the crew to his HIDE OUT

Then this is where they had to try and FIT the Prometheus parts (what happened to Shaw and Engineers) while introduce us to the Xenomorph and how/why it was created and these parts had been and felt very rushed.

The Movie Ultimately tried to do a bit of everything to please everybody but also had to have that FIRST ACT to introduce us to the Characters... Sadly with a 2 hour run time they could not do every element any justice.

The case now is RS can suggest to FOX that look, he changed things to Fan Pressure and the movie simply did not do as well as Prometheus... and so its a Question does FOX look at Fan Reaction again, or stick with Ridley Scotts Vision?

FOX will want to make $$$$$$ so they Face a Very Tough Decision Process, Stick with Ridley Scott or try and figure out what Problems the Largest % of fans had with AC and the Future of the Franchise... and its a case of you CANT please them all.

For RS he wants to make the kind of Movie he wants and he wont give TWO HOOTS what fans like/dislike, he wont change David being the Creator if he feels Fans Hate it, if RS likes this idea then RS will just do what he pleases.

The only way things will change would be if FOX again decide to get RS to change things that they feel had disappointed the fans.

I think FOX need to either Back RS and the Fans have to give him a chance.

Or Replace RS and do a sequel that they can use his ideas but change things that have disappointed fans, but the problem lies again with NO TWO fans having the Same likes/dislikes

thanks. I eally liked the engineers rebelling against the space jockeys. its sort of like the engineer war theory exept instead of 2 different races of engineer they are different spiecies.

The is it Walter/David is something debated a bit before, but Ridley Scott had confirmed that David had disabled Walter and taken his clothes and then cut his own hand off.

I think this is the story that RS/FOX will stick with, HOWEVER.... i cant see Fassbender playing the role of a ONE Handed Android in the next movie, at the very least i suspect David will repair his hand with the use of SPARE PARTS taking ONE Synthetic on such a IMPORTANT mission knowing the tasks that Walter can perform, i would doubt they would not have any SPARES about.

We CAN-NOT rule out however if David is able to actually BUILD a Walter from Parts and then UPLOAD his Memory/Soul into this Unit, i think this is something very possible.

As far as Walter, i think again its likely we may see him or if not, it will be inferred to us that the Engineers came across him, they would discover he is not HUMAN but there would have to be some good reason they dont go to Earth or check out LV-223 as i think they will indeed head to where David is going and i would assume they turn up on Planet 4 a Long time after David has left.. otherwise we could safely assume they would intercept him in no time at all.

I recon the Engineers dont turn up on Planet 4 until David has been on Origae-6 for quite some time.

possibly the deacon is the ultramorphs chestburster form.

The potential could get large with how the prequels could proceed.

But if we discount the prequels....

Then the Xenomorph was the first of its kind they had encountered,  the Bug Hunt likely refers to encountering a smaller less intelligent bug like species, and likely they are not that huge, if i remember the Last Supper Viral we had Rosenthal mention about Bugs the Size of Dogs.

Arcturian poontang seemed in reference to another world that could be interpreted as some kind of get away place for Marines, maybe much like a Space Las Vegas, its very ambiguous and did not have to indicate if those Arcturian's are Human, just that there is psychically not much difference between a Male and Female, i have not read any of the Books but it appears some of the Novels within the Franchise touched upon them more as the first Humanoid Alien Species that Mankind had first encountered.  Which is not the case since the Prequels we had contact with the Engineer.

It depends when we talk species if we can include all kinds of life, and i am sure there is bound to be many various species encountered within the Alien Time Line, but at the Time Line prior to Prometheus Mankind had only ever encountered Bacterial Life.