Comments (Page 719)

Alien 5: The Wheelchair Wars

'Great account of the juggernauts. I take it you’re not too fond of the idea that David created the xeno either? :)'

chli - I wouldn't say that. If we get an exciting and clever AC sequel, that will be no problemo at all.

There is only a 3-year window in which any Ripley-focused Alien movie can be made - EVER.  I hated Alien Covenant & was lukewarm to Prometheus.  Scott had his comeback chance twice.  The only Alien movie I'm curious about anymore is one that shows us an alt timeline after Aliens & featuring Ripley.  Fox, please do that one!  There's no where but up after AC and AR. 

Here are additional images enhanced from the Phobos tests.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mUi_MxFdtc&list=LLwyNYNcR59pbLUGn4_qhx8Q

According to the Weyland Yutani Report, David 8 that was on the Prometheus mission was the last Artificial Person to be personally designed by Sir Peter Weyland. Lacking Asimov safeguards later instituted by the synthetic oversight law, David 8 was capable of formulating plans in order to attain assigned goals; the David aboard the Prometheus exhibited behaviours that advanced Sir Peter's personal agenda regardless of the outcome for the humans involved.

@Chli

Your interpretation of my idea is correct. I must stress they are not based on what I think is "right" they are my interpretation of how I view the clues Ridley offers in Covenant and what he has said in various interviews.

He has given the responsibility for driving the narrative to David/Michael and indeed Katherine has said this prequel trilogy is not about her it is about David. 

The Engineers and Shaw (and what happened to them) in Covenant are a reaction to Davids narrative.

Ridley has indicated in the next movie that the Xeno morph will move away from being controlled by A I and be more independent of it that of course fits the continuing cascade of creator/creation. It is also dramatically crucial if you wish to grow the threat of the Xenomorph's rather than have them sharing the antagonists spot. 

In order to connect with Alien we need to see :-

1) The information link with Weyland Yutani which of course can be done by a main frame link with David/Walter.

2) We need to see in Ridleys words who the Jockey is. That he will amend some of the circumstances of the ship (no cryo/pods, the burnt trap door and the who's laser are all possibilities) but the main point will be to explain what the Jockey was up to and how he got into trouble. If that is a key connective point then it is either David/Walter or, an Engineer who becomes involved in David's narrative, possibly one of redemption. Whoever the Jockey is its about David and his ending/transformation before ALIEN. He is so important to the narrative anything else does not make dramatic sense. Put it another way for a new character to enter and be the Jockey and be entirely independent of Davids narrative makes no sense just as re introducing all the bull shit (Wayne Haag) from Prometheus makes no sense other than to bring the Engineers response to Davids destruction into the narrative.

In finishing most people use plot points and devices to get to the point where they want the Jockey to be. I am looking at it from Ridleys point of view and giving it a story that the global audience would find "Cool" and like Aaron on AVP whether he likes it or not his belief is all roads lead to David.     

It can all change or not get made but based on all of the evidence of David the straight line into and through Covenant and that in Ridleys view he is the originator of this version of the Black Goo outcome nothing else makes sense. 

I think I have a clear view of what Ridley is up to I guessed all of Covenant with just two surprises :-

1) The Jacob death solar sales incident.

2) The complete lack of exposition over the Engineers and Shaw from their point of view rather than what we got, how they fed David's narrative. 

But positionally we got what I expected. 

Put simply Covenant repositioned the narrative entirely around David I expect that pre eminence to continue.

Just heard fox is reassessing the franchise. I'm personally dying to see the next one. David vs the engineers must be released!

I agree, Drake.

The only thing i cared about was finding out if Shaw/David made it to the planet, what their homeworld looked like and if Shaw got her answers

Instead we just got a rehashed mini monster mash with a 3 minute video which had the engineerish race being bombed with a virus.

Complete disappointment.

Alien Covenant was garbage with gore. It deserved to tank at the box office.  I loved where Ridley Scott was trying to take the franchise with Prometheus. I thought it was beautiful and deserved a sequel better than the gore (bore) fest of AC. I wanted Engineers and instead I got giant killers insects, an insane android, and another idiotic crew. If Fox allows him to do another one,  expect more f the same nonsense. 

Right now I'm more intrigued by whatever Neil Blomkamp has written for Sigourney Weaver, who is the heart and soul of the Alien universe. If done well that film would be incredible to watch.

None of us cared about any of the characters in Alien Covenant.  If this is supposed to reveal more details about them, then it should have been shared before we saw the film.  At this point, I could care less about anything AC related that does not add or elaborate on the connection between the Engineers and the Xenos, or in some way delves into the plot.

Creating any content around all of the dead-before-we-even-got-started crew is just pointless.

@Big Dave

The first scene in Prometheus reminded me more of the Athenian philosopher Socrates who drunk the conium after being accused by the Athenians rather than seeding life by simply destroying himself into simple particles. I think that guy was punished for something, he was left alone on a planet and the only choice he had was to drink the 'conium' (poisson). Did he save us by sabotaging LV-426 mission? Was he punished for something that betrayed them? Only Ridley knows, but I don't buy this seeding story, they surely must have had more intelligent ways, they were the masters of biology. If it is the seeding method though, it would be more logical to sacrifice an old guy like weyland, not a teenager like the one we saw.

"Crito, we owe a cock to Asclepius. Please, don't forget to pay the debt." -last words of Socrates-

What the heck is a mental midget?  Whatever it is, what a way to offend two minorities with one stone.

@joylitt - "Most of the audience did not like Covenant."

Me thinks your math may be a bit off :) 59% is more than 41%, but RT has turned into a hate fest and personally I care for how their scores are skewed. All the aggregate movie scoring websites show the majority of audience and reviewers liked Covenant.

IMDB = 6.7 out of 10

Tomatometer - 71% score

Metascore = 65 score

Fandango = 4.5 out of 5

IMDB is much more representative of the average movie goer than the other aggregate sites and Metascore is the same on the reviewer side. I actually think Amazon's user review scoring hit's the mark of how the public feels about a movie much better, especially since they come from after the marketing hype is over. Even this early with the DVD/Blu Ray/streaming not even out, they show 4.5 out of 5 stars.

In the real world (not on the web) I know 8 people who have seen it so far. Two of them loved it. The rest liked it but not as much as Prometheus. None disliked it. They were hoping for a direct continuation of Prometheus, as I was.

There's so many ways, better ways in my opinion that the story could've gone, post Prometheus.

But we also have to assume a few things, for instance, that David was taking the ship where Shaw wanted him to take it, their home world/planet.

If so, then they should've arrived in a technologically advanced society/system, not some primitive back water planet with a bunch of monks as in AC.

The ship would've docked with a spacestation or something similiar, Shaw would've met her makers and got her answers

But then the story could go anywhere

If the Engineers who were planning to bomb Earth were working on orders from the home planet engineers, then the home planet engineers might try to kill shaw and to commandeer the stolen Juggernaut and have it go to earth and bomb it

But David manages to unleash the cargo on the engineers homeworld instead, turning it into a barren wasteland of monsters.

The Engineers then declare war on humanity, but Shaw and/or David are able to send a message to Earth using Engineer tech to warn them of the coming war

Cue the next film

lol

I think any future prequel film would be better off without Ridley as director, he's made too many changes which I think were mistakes, at least for me.

Removing the engineer speaks scene springs to mind.

The problem though, is he never reads reviews of his work, so he never learns from his mistakes, he's too cocky and arrogant.

Same old crap.

The mental midgets told us how bad Alien3 was and how it killed the franchise !!1!

No more Alien movies!!! Lol!

The mental midgets told us how bad Alien:Ressurection was and how it killed the franchise !!1!

No more Alien movies!!! Lol!

The mental midgets told us how bad Prometheus was and how it killed the franchise !!1!

No more Alien movies!!! Lol!

The mental midgets told us how bad Alien: Covenant was and how it killed the franchise !!1!

No more Alien movies!!! Lol!

@JustJonesy In the book his kiss with Daniels was more like conducting a test. Here's evidence of his madness and of his analysis of the kiss.

-spoilers-

"Elizabeth Shaw didn't die in the crash," she said flatly.

"No." There was a tinge of reminicence in his voice, but not regret. "We had been through a great deal together. As a consequence, I held her in the utmost respect. But eventually that was lost to time and necessity. I kept her alive for quite a while. I like to think that was another testament to my creativity, although she might have disagreed. She was my most beautiful subject.

"Until now of course"

 pg.282

He kissed her. It was savage, brutal, awkward.

When he drew back, his expression was thoughtful.

"Isn't that how it's done? I contain sufficient information to duplicate the requisite physicality. I know exactly which muscles are involved, though the finer points of time and pressure elude me. Variations are to be expected based on the dissimilar physiognomies of the individuals involved. Well, you can teach me the finer points. We'll have plenty of time."

pg. 289

Haha this franchise is dead.  Congrats Ridley, you should have stuck to your guns when you said "the beast was cooked".  It certainly is now.  Overcooked, even.  Prometheus 2 would have performed so much better.

Posting a new thread that just contains a link to another site or that copy and pastes the content from another site is paramount to spamming and as such is against our, and likely other sites forum rules!

David infects the colonists.W Y sends a ship to Origia 6 with Colonial Marines and synthetic Marines.

The Engineers find out what David did and send ships also.

A war breaks out.

Several synthetics encounter David and are "enlightened" escape after the war and Deckard must now hunt them down.

Maybe another theory for the collection.

It could also be that David "prepared" Walter to share his mindset.

This would involve the esoteric discussion about art,history,love,creation even the two fights between them to some degree.

We also dont know which kind of influence that rippeod off part from Walter had on his cybertronic brain.

Could also be a step to give Walter his free-will , considering the fact that Walter waited before he landed his final punch to David.

Here we see the first signs of Walter's uncertainty.

David used this brief moment for his advantage and did a system-restart of Walter , hitting another vital part.

After Walter rebooted again he has now it's free will like David but abviously he lost some kind of memory regarding Daniels cabin in the woods.

Deacon
Mural creature (Ultramoprh)
Neomorph
Xenomorph
....and any other *-Morphs which we haven't seen.

^^ Out of all these, David just created 'Xenomorph'

The true ancestor is possibly the Ultramoprh (Mural creature) and the Black goo is imbibed with it's DNA. The black goo mutates any organism such that it will eventually lead to the reproduction of a *-Morph. Every *-Morph will be different than each other based on the host's DNA and the route of impregnation.

The Black goo didn't mutate any plants/trees. It mutated spore-producing fungi. Fungus is non-botanical.

David created a route....by mutating insects and cross-breeding it (and probably also using Shaw's ovums) and creating Facehugger eggs.

Too bad,... I really hope that Scott could make two more or at least more to finish what he has started. The smaller budget wouldn't really affect his creativity. I think it would be interesting to see what could be possible. On the other side, Blomkamp could get his chance and thats good. I watched Elysium some days ago and it's pretty good. A fresh vision, good-looking production design and social criticism. 

Yeah, needed to give a whole lot of context to make the jigsaw work. There's more....continuing on point 5 :)

5) Next, on the Alien chicken-and-egg problem. The Engineers obviously have to come first before the Xenomorphs. Reasoning follows:

The Engineers are the ones who designed, build and fly spaceships whereas the xenomorph cannot.

The suits the Engineers were wearing (or had integrated or genetically-engineered into them) and their ribbed spacecraft structures are highly similar to the Xenomorph exoskeleton itself. Thus, there is a congruent “cultural” theme there, where the Engineers genetically designed the xenomorph to have almost the same “look and feel”. If the xenomorph were a naturally and randomly evolved creature that the Engineers accidentally discovered amongst the countless planets they explored, it will certainly NOT have had the similar ribbed themed designs of their spaceships.

Even among different human races on Earth, you clearly see that for example Japanese samurai armor in all its varieties has a theme running through it, whilst European knights in the middle ages wrought heavy metal pieces that wore like carapaces. One look and you know these are protective equipment made from two distinct cultures even though both are made by the same human species. If an archaeologist digs up an ancient armor in France that looks like the Japanese designs, it will be ridiculous to suggest that somehow the ancient French came up with identical Japanese designs independently and by pure chance alone.

It would similarly, be a near impossible coincidence, that you would stumble upon a distant planet with an alien creature having an exoskeleton naturally evolved to look much like the interior décor of the spaceships you built.

Furthermore, the narrative in the Covenant prequel, being that David was the original creator of (or the one who “perfected”) the first xenomorph from his primitive, equipment-sparse, gothic-like lab in the Engineer city he destroyed is untenable. Firstly, the xenomorph is a highly advanced biological creature and using a rudimentary lab without even DNA sequencing machines, abundant chemical inventory, clean room facilities or even a basic microscope is nonsensical. Those who are working in bio-tech will know that contamination of DNA samples is so prevalent that you can’t do experiments and get conclusive results without very strict protocols, control (sample) standards and absolutely sanitized environments. Secondly, one android SINGLE-HANDEDLY designing the “perfect” organism just by random mixing and matching some scattered body parts over a couple of years or even decades is nonsensical. At best, one can speculate that David just fed whatever bio-materials he can get his hands on, into the petri dish / creature(s) and then wait and hope for the best that it will breed into something progressively better by blind chance. In fact, David doesn’t even have any viable containment vessel to keep his grown samples for so-called experimentation and further study. In that mud-house lab environment, is ever resourceful David going to build Xenomorph containment vessels with stone bricks or some scrap metal lying around?

Therefore, we can conclude the final adult form xenomorphs could ONLY have been made by an advanced civilization with advanced facilities at an earlier date. Whether it was some mad scientist Engineer who specifically designed the grotesque lifecycle of the xenomorph or it evolved and adapted by itself over time has little significance. The end result for now, is that the final adult xenomorph form has the distinctive cultural signature of the Engineer (at least the pale-blue skin race/faction/group) finger-printed on its exoskeleton. Thus, the Xenomorph was definitely MADE by (a group/faction/race of) Engineers. This conclusion is important for reasons I will elaborate later on.

6) From point 5) above, since the Engineers (or a race/faction/group) had their distinctive Geiger-esque designed imprinted on the Xenomorph in its final adult form, it follows that they also very likely needed to be involved at the embryonic or earlier stages to genetically design and make the source material of the black goo/spores to begin with.

I'm not a biologist or geneticist, but it is well-known in basic biology that Form follows Function. If a cow is made/evolved to eat grass (function), its needs to have flat teeth and four stomachs (form) for processing low nutrient grass as food. If you want to clone a cow from scratch with bio-luminescent skin, you cannot say make it have heritable luminescent skin without first planning it in advance and inserting DNA sequences at its low-level zygote cell. Injecting luminescence capability via DNA therapy into skin cells of an adult cow may work, if temporarily, in outward form, but it will certainly NOT have these traits passed onto future progeny because these cow eggs/sperm cells will not have the DNA encoded. Therefore, at the simplistic level, the Engineers theoretically would also need to work at the zygote level of the Xenomorph or even at a more fundamental level, in order to have the adult form finally exhibit the features of their Geiger-resque exoskeletal designs (similar to their manufactured spaceships).

One could theorize that the “black goo” stuff was naturally occurring and that the Engineers found it on some unknown planet and then proceeded to experiment with it, and realized it could be useful for rapidly seeding life across the galaxy. This may be plausible but unlikely. Consider, if it was naturally occurring in the Universe, why the superfluous activity of the Engineers to waste time and effort plus sacrifice one Engineer each time to spread the black goo around viable planets. If the black goo were naturally occurring, it will lead to life once the conditions are right, whether the Engineer civilization wills it or not.  In fact, the Engineers willfully spreading such “natural” black goo might even be deleterious to many planets and/or civilizations. If the Engineers had scanned a planet and missed even a small community of worms under a rock, then the black goo spread on the early planet may end up transforming these into deadly acid-filled serpents and then fully-grown invasive xenomorphs, which then destroys the rest of the planets ecosystem.

Secondly, if the black goo occurs naturally, then many, if not all, planets would be devoid of any lifeforms except variations of the xenomorphs eventually. Even advanced life forms evolved on otherwise normal planets, will eventually encounter the occasional drop of black goo say every few million years and then self-destructs in a chain-reaction that transforms all into hideous forms and more black goo or black spores or eggs to spread to even more planets via spaceships or panspermia. The ultimate end-state of such a galaxy filled with a variety of powerful but instinct-driven xenomorphic forms that cannot build complex civilization and more, seems quite pointless; and then when everyone transforms into a “perfect” organism~~, then no one is perfect anymore, since me being a xenomorph can spew acid at you and be just as powerful as the next xenomorph, so the entire biological ecosystem becomes homogeneous and dead, which defeats the whole purpose of propagating life in all its diversity.

Therefore, the black goo clearly does NOT occur naturally and is an ARTIFICIAL construct specially manufactured by the Engineers (or a race/faction/group of them). The “black goo” and by corollary, the xenomorph, its entire life cycle (from spores/egg, to face-hugger, then to chest-burster and rapid growth into adult form thereafter), has to be intentionally engineered to be so. In other words, the Engineers did NOT by happenstance find this organism or discover this “black goo” on some unknown planet and then collected it for use.

~~Note: My point is there is really no such thing as a “perfect” organism in the natural world that is able to thrive in a diversity of planetary and environmental conditions. In the marathon of life, if everyone wins and eats its prey every single time everywhere, then everyone becomes a loser collectively. There are no meaningful winners in a competition should everyone be a “perfect” winner, since if everyone becomes a “perfect” organism, eventually there will be no prey left (i.e. no food left) for these “perfect” organisms which spreads like wildfire and consumes everything too rapidly. In fact, once all prey is eaten, the “perfect” organism will have to eat each other to survive, until only one cannibal unit is left on each planet. This means the “perfect” organism inevitably leads to self-extinction.

In other words, once the black goo/spores are unleashed onto a planet, the biological chain-reaction will transform the entire planet’s fauna into xenomorphic forms (e.g. dog/cow/worm/fish/bird-form Xeno if the black goo/spores/face-hugger latches onto a dog/cow/worm/fish/bird host), which will then ravenously kill each other off as the food source runs out. Eventually, there will be only one cannibalistic, strongest Xenomorph left on the desolate planet and it will die of hunger since it cannot eat itself nor become a herbivore. In theory at least, that is what will and should happen. Presumably, when it is safely cleansed of fauna, the Engineers will then return to that particular planet to “seed” it again and start over a new planetary experiment once more. Do note that the black goo/spores only destroys fauna (i.e. animals) and do not seem to affect plants and vegetation at all.

However, common sense will inform us that selective evolutionary pressures may come into play once everyone transforms into a “perfect” organism and then it becomes a race on which xenomorph “species” can lay more eggs, have bigger, faster face-huggers and so on and so forth. Since a cooperative group of “perfect” xenomorphs will be more effective than a smaller group of equally “perfect” organisms, we may even have xenomorphs develop language and inventing fire and then working cooperatively to create civilization, and pretty soon, we end up full circle with xenomorphs “devolving” into brainier but “weaker” species able to build spaceships after a few billion years later, and then their civilization encounters the black goo/spores and then what? They will either be immune to it or the whole cycle starts again? lol.  Therefore, in reality AND in the movie script, the black goo CANNOT logically be a naturally occurring substance. In reality too, the “perfect” organism is an oxymoron, BUT in the movie script, we can suspend our disbelief and continue to be a movie fan.

7) Now, onto the raison d'etre of the black goo. In the beginning scene of Prometheus, it shows an Engineer sacrificed via drinking the black goo stuff. This implies again that one group/race/faction of Engineers consciously knew the danger of this material in an individual Engineer body, but they used it anyhow in order to seed various planets with advanced life.

What life this starts off is inconsistent in the Alien story here. That particular Engineer drinking the black goo disintegrates into just self-replicating DNA molecules, while other biological entities almost always transforms into or gets a xenomorph growing inside them if they had exposure to the same goo/spores?

One type or quality of black goo seeds planets (and theoretically Earth as well) and led to human evolution (and all other beautiful lifeforms) over billions of years, while the same black goo that human space travelers came into contact later produces viciously destructive, bloodthirsty Xenomorphs? The contrast between Heaven and Hell cannot be greater than this. Yet, both essentially derived from the same black goo.

It makes no sense at all, unless you consider 3 possibilities:

X)          The original black goo substance manufactured for the sacrificial ceremony is fundamentally different from those the Engineers (or specific group/faction/race) made in later versions.

And/Or

Y)          The black goo substance was manufactured from a common source, but somehow will eventually degrade / devolve /mutate into something awful over the eons OR something/someone accidentally or intentionally contaminated it during their long sojourns in space and over multiple planetary excursions.

And/Or

Z)          In a more complex theory, the manufactured black goo acts as a catalyst, and the transformation effect depends on some additional factor of the biological being that comes into contact with it. If you have some physiological X-factor (or sufficient levels of it), it will decompose the biological entity into DNA molecules that can seed planets rapidly with complex lifeforms, but if one does not have this physiological X-factor then taking it gets the gory final result of a xenomorph.^

^ Here another Earthly analogy might help. Humans and mammal species such as rodents, rabbits are easily killed by snake venom. A small dosage of less than 1 grams of a black mamba venom has been documented to have killed a fully grown elephant. For a human-sized animal, such venom will kill within 30 minutes if you’re not injected with the antidote immediately. However, a little furry primate called a mongoose, has evolved itself to become totally immune to the effects of snake venom, including the black mambas. In fact, the mongoose targets and eats snakes, and even if bitten by highly venomous ones, it simply dozes off for a short time, while its body’s naturally produced anti-venom neutralizes the deadly toxins. Although rare, natural evolution can create animals with vastly different responses to the same chemical.

All 3 scenarios, or even combinations thereof, are possible and we cannot get confirmation until future directors/movies provides more information (or creates more confusion and inconsistencies. lol).

At this moment, I lean towards scenario Z). My thinking is primarily due to the stated arguments in points 3) and 4) above, whereby the Engineers as a whole are shown to be quite peaceable and lacking in weaponry or weapon systems. Following that, the black goo was deduced to be artificially manufactured by them, [see point 5) and  6)] NOT initially as a deadly weapon but for the purposes of seeding planets which was visibly demonstrated in their sacrificial scene.

However, as with all technology, there is always a flip side to it. In their design and manufacture of the black goo bio-material, the Engineers had to make it extremely virulent, fast growing, fertile, powerfully self-propagating and supremely hardy so that it can do its job of seeding planets rapidly. Incidentally, these are all the EXACT same qualities of the Xenomorph. In other words, their bio-technology had negative consequences when used improperly. This is akin to human nuclear technology, where powerful nuclear energy and knowledge could be put to peaceful and positive use, but due to human nature, almost always gets abused and turned into an equally all-powerful destructive force.

Apparently too, these highly advanced civilization with high bio-tech could not seed planets via a less suicidal way. I mean why can’t they draw out some of the Engineer’s blood or if really needed just cut off one of his hands or little fingers (which they later can easily grow back, given their advanced bio-tech capability), then mix the black goo into it and throw it into the river? Do they really need so much Engineer “meat” as reactive substrate? Even if you argue that some level of DNA material density is first required, no matter how much “meat” you use, it is not going to make much difference in ppm density when the DNA gets diluted to almost nothing as the river flows into the vast sea. Everything is reduced to DNA molecules anyway, so it should not matter which body part you actually use. Also, if the black goo is so powerful in replicating itself, it wouldn’t really matter how much “meat” you start off with. To develop this line of logical thinking further, one could even use Engineer cadavers or multiple corpses if you needed more “meat”, inject the black goo into them and then quickly throw it into the river.

Thus, we can list the following propositions on why the Engineers need such a strange personal sacrifice:

A)          It serves purely as a ceremonial/ritual function, just as human cultures in earlier ages sacrificed animals and even humans for various cultural rites of offerings to their “Gods” or for some dubious religious reasoning.

OR

B)          The black goo follows the complex case in 7) Z), where it only works properly, when it is ingested into a “prepared” living Engineer body (having the requisite physiological X-factor) which then interacts with the black goo to produce DNA seeding molecules. For some unknown biological reason humans do not yet grasp, any other biological entity taking in the black goo, without the proper “preparation” and/or without this physiological X-factor, will likely generate xenomorphic forms instead. For obvious reason too, using a dead Engineer corpse or body part will also not work because clearly a dead body or body part has no physiology and hence no X-factor.

If we accept that 7) A) is nonsensical for a highly-developed advanced civilization, then we can conclude that 7) B) is the only meaningful answer remaining. Thus, the black goo requires the following in order to seed planets:

i)           A full LIVING body of an Engineer, who is

ii)          “Prepared” beforehand, with sufficient levels or quality (whatever that means), of the physiological X-factor within his body

It also follows that this group/race/faction of the Engineers likely knew that without this correct combination, the xenomorphic forms will likely result. This specific requirement explains why the sacrificial scene suggests that the Engineer have had already some kind of prior ritualized “preparation” with the help of his fellow kind in those long robes, and who seems fully cognizant and accepting of his outcome. We observe the Engineers behavior as performing some kind of sacrificial ritual, probably because we humans do not yet fathom the inner workings of the physiological X-factor within the living Engineer body and the black goo.

Note further that when David dropped all the black goo vials onto the Engineer city, all the Engineers there died the same way as the sacrificial Engineer did….by way of disintegration. None of the Engineer bodies there birthed any xenomorphic forms at all. Thus, this reinforces my point 2) that they indeed, all belong to the same Engineer “species”, with the similar reaction to the black goo. Contrast this with how human bodies react when they come into contact with the black goo.

Why the unsuspecting Engineers in the doomed city did not fully disintegrate into DNA molecules (given the huge amount of black goo rained on them) could be attributed to how much or little, these Engineers were “prepared” and thus their physiological X-factor may not be of sufficient quality to disintegrate completely. Until future movies show otherwise, this is a reasonably consistent explanation that fits well.

8) Understanding all the previous points, especially on the origins and workings of the black goo, allows us to conceptualize the state of the Engineer civilization, and deduce what their overall intentions were.

In summary, my perspective is that the early Engineers (those who used the large disc-shape craft) KNEW the potential dangers of the black goo and treated it with due care and respect, using only small quantities for specific planet seeding purposes. Later group/races/factions of the Engineers (those using the C-shaped space craft with Geiger-esque architecture) were more careless with it and produced large quantities of the same black goo to create the Xenomorph forms and used it as a means to “wipe the slate clean”, on planets which they think did not evolve according to their standards. They were actually the antithesis of the earlier (group/factions/races of) Engineers by undoing their predecessors “Godly” work.

Here, I need to emphasize that from a broader perspective of worldly creation/destruction, these differing groups/factions/races of Engineers really need NOT be in opposition to each other. As discussed earlier, the Engineer race in totality is NOT war-like and they probably are NOT in any sort of military conflict with each other the way humans often engage in organized warfare due to ideological schisms.

Which is why no individual Engineer will be able to give Dr. Shaw any satisfactory answer to her question of why they need to destroy life on Earth, nor help answer Mr. Weyland on his obsession with individual immortality. These are irrelevant questions, especially when they are asking an individual Engineer pilot. It is like child asking an individual human soldier with a rank of private, on a battlefield why he is shooting at his fellow human beings, when they did not do anything to harm him and all they did was wear a different uniform. What answer would you give the child? You would need to drag out an encyclopedic-worthy amount of context around the entire social psychology, cultural-politico history, even religious beliefs of the entire society and so on and so forth….and then the child will say it still makes no sense at all.

It is NOT a simple clean cut case of pure Good versus pure Evil, when seen in the context of billion year evolutionary time scales, in which the Engineer civilization operates in or is concerned with. My hunch is the two creator/destroyer (groups/factions/races) of Engineers would have recognized the thematic roles they both played in the greater scheme of things. Consider for illustration sake, if the exceedingly successful dinosaurs were not wiped out 650 million years ago on Earth, by accident or otherwise, where do you think human beings would stand? Likewise, what if there are better forms of beings that could be made should humans be removed to make way, would you do so if you had the Engineers prowess? As such, there is no easy answers to Dr. Shaw’s burning question. As David the android, tersely hinted “To create, one must first destroy”, which sums up his (and mine) perspective on the penultimate motive of the Engineers and their activities.

9) Now onto Paradise planet. It is obvious that it is NOT a technologically advanced group/faction/race yet and it would seem this Engineer (group/race/faction) on that planet is enamored of the spaceship coming in to dock with the hovering station.

My postulate is that the docking station is automated and unmanned and has been hovering there with nothing much happening, for untold centuries or more. This explains why the entire population of the Engineer (group/race/faction) came out in droves to witness the rare spectacle. They had clearly built their city plaza right below this floating curiosity. Now, we can give plausible explanations of why those Engineers on their supposed home planet, were oblivious to the danger and cheering on as David docks the spaceship above their city.

Since, we know the Engineers likely traced their roots to the same source, even if somewhat distant over thousands of years and more, they would recognize the spaceship as their “brother” or “kin” returning. In other words, they did not see it as a threat at first. They perceived it as one of their own kind piloting the vehicle. The docking station obviously was placed there previously and hence the primitive Engineers on this planet would have had a constant reminder of some history of previous contact.

Think back on my point 2) again, as on Earth today, different countries and human races are at different stages of development. Each may react very differently to seeing a helicopter hovering near their dwellings. In New York, nobody would give a second look, but an untouched native tribe in an Amazonian forest will look to the human pilot of this wondrous mechanical flying bird as a higher being.

Other clues also indicate the backward nature of this particular Engineer (race/faction/group) because no other airborne vehicle went up to greet David’s vessel. They did not seem to have their own flying machines at all. If a flying saucer were to hover above one of our major cities, you can be sure many military jet interceptors and news helicopters will be flying about to survey the strange craft. Not so for this relatively primitive Engineer (race/faction/group). Furthermore, David did not face any resistance, no escorts, nor planetary immigration checks, nor any need to screen his cargo upon entry into this planets orbit, which means the entire planet is left open and defenseless, or it is not technologically advanced enough to detect incoming spacecraft or aircraft. No one is around to shepherd it, even though it has that hovering docking station left there quietly waiting for an eternity. This also means that this planet seems abandoned or forgotten by the more technologically-advanced pale-blue skinned Engineer (race/group/faction).

Therefore, one can deduce that the entire Engineer civilization has vast inequality much like Earth-based human civilization, except the Engineer’s one is spread across star systems, while ours are spread across continents and countries. We can also know that this Paradise planet is not the real ROOT home planet of the Engineers, because there are no advanced artifacts of a long-gone civilization except the docking station (which was clearly a foreign import). Thus, this paradise planet is more like a rural virgin planet (as opposed to virgin forest) that everyone has forsaken. Alternatively, the Engineer is spread too thin amongst their inter-galactic network or their entire civilization has declined and broken apart, so much so that basic communication channels and transport links to their central culture have all but deprecated over the eons.

10) Finally, the question of why David wanted to kill the Engineers on Paradise planet. In my opinion, David, as a near immortal android, is just being psychotic; in short he/it has gone Crazy. His actions and behavior are illogical and haphazard. He has malfunctioned as an android and, ironically, in the process, he has become quite human with all the irrationality and extreme behavior.

Take for instance, he travelled to this remote and primitive Paradise planet instead of navigating to the real technologically advanced ROOT homeworld / capital planet of the Engineers to seek answers. But, he probably already figured out the answer for the Engineer’s motives as in point 8). So what is purpose of visiting paradise planet? Just to kill them all? But isn’t it obvious too, he wouldn’t be able to single-handedly wipe out an entire inter-galactic, space-faring civilization?

Assuming he even knew where the real ROOT homeworld / capital planet of the Engineer civilization was, (which he doesn’t) and be able to bypass their defenses to drop the black goo on the planet. He still will NOT be able to wipe out all Engineers, since it would be certain such an inter-galactic spanning civilization would have likely colonized thousands, if not tens of thousands of other planets over the eons since they became space travelers. Many of these colonies would probably have advanced defense technologies way above this current backwaters planet. Heck, you’re talking about a civilization that can seed planets with life, and you don’t expect themselves to be spread across the galaxy or even other galaxies? Clearly, David is out of his league and out of his mind, when he decided he wanted to wipe out the Engineers.

Even with his near “immortal” lifespan, David could not possibly zip around in his stolen Engineer spacecraft for millennia, just to find all the planets with Engineer races/factions/groups. By some time, Dr. Shaw would have died even if the machinery can continue to keep her in hibernation for 10,000 years. David with his nimble AI-intelligence would also have quickly realized the inexorable Second Law of Thermodynamics, would ensure his own artificial systems will also break down gradually without spare parts and replacements, and then what?

Notice also that David crashed his only viable spacecraft onto some mountain after dropping all the black goo on the city. Again, this makes no sense, if his stated objective is to wipe out the Engineer species. Without a working spacecraft, how is he going to zip around the galaxy to throw out vials of black goo to achieve that?

Clearly, no one on Paradise planet forced him to crash his stolen spaceship. There was this floating docking station, which in all likelihood has supplies and fuel to restock his ship for his next destination. Also, these primitive Engineers had no flying machines, no rockets, no anti-aircraft artillery with which to challenge his air superiority, plus no Xenomorph on the ground that can reach the floating docking station to wreak havoc since its perpetually hovering like a thousand feet in the air. So, the more sensible sequence should have been to refuel the ship, drop the black goo on the city, then zip to the next known Engineer settlement indicated in the ships star map that has another floating docking station and repeat the process. But David did not do any of the rational things.

As described in point 5) earlier, David did not have any high-tech lab equipment and clean-room facilities or sufficient bio materials, with which to improve on the Xenomorph or create new versions. He may have created one using the biological body of Dr. Shaw, but that’s about it. He has also turned all the primitive Engineers into dust (another irrational self-defeating action, if he had really wanted more biological material for his experimentation). All the local fauna was wiped out too by his first actions, so no birds and no animal bodies for his purposes. How intelligent is that?

Therefore, as mentioned, David with his quick thinking would have already realized all the above suppositions. So he understood the futility of it all and meanwhile, he had developed “feelings” for Dr. Shaw whom will die soon enough and leave him alone for a long time. That is why he started to do mad experiments to revive Dr. Shaw or make her become a Xenomorph Queen or to somehow live on in perpetuity and propagate their mutual creations together. David being an android accustomed to manic human emotions, became irrational. He appears lonesome, knows he will lose his only love (Dr. Shaw) much earlier than his own damningly long lifespan. He will have nobody for friends, no community nor communion and even if he befriended the primitive Engineers, there is nothing much he can learn from their primitive ways (which he can learnt a lot more of via the ships computers) and they too will be replaced over time with new generations of blissfully ignorant Engineers.

So what gives on David’s behavior?

In a sense, the android, became irrationally twisted because it had unfulfilled (and maddeningly never-to-be fulfilled) yearnings for Human experiences, such as feelings of Love and lost, emotional relationships, even of sexual reproduction. You see, David as an artificial lifeform yearns for real biological experiences because he could never grasp what it is like to have a short mortal Life, with all its attendant joy and sadness and have progeny (like humans and xenomorphs too). He knows he can never experience being loved since Dr. Shaw, or others, will never truly love him back and yet when Dr. Shaw eventually dies, he may have to face an unbearable near eternity of solitary pain and loss.

In Covenant, this also explains his choking back tears and his twisted desire to forcibly kiss Daniels (acted by Katherine Waterston) and also his attempt at android-to-android “love” with the (“homosexual”?) kiss of Walter. Obviously, David who can never reproduce himself nor ever have sex, also had fascinations with it. He had already used the body of Dr. Shaw for biological experimentation and to generate xenomorph eggs, like some kind of android-to-alien surrogate sexual reproduction. Of course, all of these attempts fails and will always fail, since poor David is eternally cursed, the very day his Creator made him as an android.

Rationally, he knows he will never be able to wipe out the Engineers, so he can only bear silent witness to their deeds over the millennia, or until his own android machinery fails him. So, the irrational response left is to find a primitive Engineer colony which he can snuff out easily, just fly in without feeling helpless under the hand of the “Creator of his Creator”, make a dent in history by unleashing his unbridled fury and just basically show his middle finger to “Creation”. Then, after the mass genocidal act, he drove the spaceship into the mountains in one suicidal blaze of glory. When he failed to die in the crash, he realized his irrecoverable errors, having gotten stuck on the Paradise planet, so he sought to find new transport by setting up his distress signal to bait other victims and continue his madness and revenge at "Creation".

That’s all there is to his behavior: Beneath his outward cold and calculated demeanor, is hidden android rage, that rejects his helpless eternal observer status and wants to actively participate by devious interfering and destroying, wherever opportunity arose, all the things he knows he forever can never have or hold.

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Thanks for reading and let me know if my pet theory works or has any glaring inconsistency to help our Alien fans and friends.

That tears it...

I am formally de-coupling my interpretation of the ALIENverse from FOX's trainwreck. They have no idea WTF they're doing, and I'm doing trying to play catch-up to the indecisive, random-wander way they've been handling it.

Folks can consider mine an alternative-universe, or whatever, but my works will no longer be bonded to the laughably disorganized 'Canon'.

a bunch of monkeys could helm this franchise better.

I don't like the skip ahead in time from *edit duh* Prometheus to Covenant. That gap of 10 years deserves its own movie. The rush to explain what happened as shown in AC was not satisfying and left me wanting the whole story.

I think the trilobite scene would have been more gruesome if it stayed its original size from birth, jumped the engineer and burrowed down his throat. That would have even been consistent with the hammerpede scene.

Imagine a big engineer holding his throat thrashing about helplessly as the slimy little bugger went down his throat.   

Raven

I want a sprawling epic 3 1/2 hour movie next to wrap it up.

Agreed. I think it is time.

I don't get it.....I loved AC. I liked Prometheus.I can't remember a big budget movie this devicive.

Only critique I have is the CGI could have been better and I think AC would have benefited from an extra 20 or so minutes.

I want a sprawling epic 3 1/2 hour movie next to wrap it up.

At this point, I would rather not have the prequels connect to Alien. If they did, watching Alien would lose some of its mystery. It would have to be really tight if they did it.

Most of the audience did not like Covenant. Now it even holds a "rotten" score of 59% from the audience at rottentomatoes. And all the top reviews from imdb are nothing but hate. As the article says, the film inflicted great damage to the franchise and 20th Century Fox won't greenlight anything that further damages the brand. 

Wow! Lot to digest.

Yes, Engineers society needs a lot of world building. Earth has hundreds of languages for our populace...wonder if it's the same for the Engineers? Galaxy spawning/spanning cultures probably have 10,000+ languages...probably can't understand the next village...let alone another planet!    "hiut hdi ' kjotuy' ?" ? "frubg' e' topwer" ? "scus e e me ' e?"

Didn't see any vehicles...did they/do they walk everywhere!?

Engineers take a lot of eggs from the original Alien world, one engineer get infected and die but before launch the signal that the Nostromo recive thousands of years after. 

Look Scott, It wasnt that hard

I don't agree with you, but that's not a problem. :)

I would have much preferred to see Shaw and David's story rather than jumping ahead. There was a fantastic movie to be made there.

We could have seen David gaining Shaw's trust early in the movie, her re-assembling David and him teaching her how the ship operates, and her trusting him to put her in cryo sleep. Then the tale would have turned dark when we find that was all a ruse, David arrives at Paradise and bombs that city.

That could have been just the first quarter of the movie. The rest would have made an interesting story of Shaw being awakened, David lying to her about the "accidental" bombing, and him beginning his experiments in secret. There must have been uninfected Engineers hidden somewhere for David to experiment on and use as hosts. He had one posed in his lab and the head of another on a table in the lab. How David or Shaw finds those engineers and David captures/subdues them could have been a whole sub plot. That could be the point where Shaw would learn all about the Engineers and get some of her answers.

Then at some point Shaw finds David's secret lab and what he has been doing, realizes she was all wrong about him, then sends that message out that the Covenant intercepted. There could have been a whole plot line where she tries to escape and crashes the juggernaut. Then David captures her and the story really goes dark when he decides to experiment on her.

I can see a dozen variations on a story like that. It could have even ended in the same way, with David discovering the ovomorph egg, or him using Shaw to breed the xeno version of the Neomorph.

I loved Covenant, but I think that story would have been much more interesting than what we got.

'the story of David and Shaw's journey and coming to Paradise'

That would have been a fairly boring chapter in my op. :) It's good that he jumped forward in the story, BUT I think Scott should made a series of profound shorts about important events to answer some questions concerning Shaw, the Engineers, etc. Six episodes would be enough.

Kethol, I'm with you, the line

"sources say Fox will have to reassess two intended sequels"

equals to

'my friends say Fox should reassess two planned movies'...

Plus, why would they say something similar before the Japanese opening and the blu-ray release? I'm sure they will announce something official about the future movies after this September.

So, Daszkowski, please delete/change the title of your topic! :D

Correct.  There have been no official statements from Fox Studios at this time regarding a "reassessment" of the 'Alien' franchise.

Maybe David somehow connected Shaws reproductive system into his own body. Maybe he didnt swallow the Embryos, he is making them, he is an incubator to this and the spawn of one of these which somehow went wrong inside through a fight or a crash ends up hatching inside him instead of coming out as an Egg for use on the Covenant ? This fusion of Shaws reproductive system and Davids synthetics spawns an Alien "Queen"  

From where we are now at the end of A:C i would go with....

Walter is on Planet 4 a few months

Teardrop Ship turns up..... With 2 Jugganauts

Walter & The Elders speak

The Elders want David alive to see who could do such a thing to their sacred place and trial him for his sins

David is on The Covenant building his army, trying to perfect his final design. with the help of MUTHUR and WY are in contact

By the time The Elders get to David he is at LV 223 collecting the bio weapons to destroy Earth and The Elders legacy

David has an army of Xeno by now although not bio-mech

Action ensues.

David has a Jugganaut ready as a last gasp escape plan with Eggs on board

Jugganaut takes off with David flying to Earth with his god plan failing he has one shot at the Earth

Last scene - One of the Embryos from the end of covenant which has been inside David all this time finally bonds with his synthetic DNA and just before he plots course for Earth, his chest opens and a 1979 Xeno is born. David loses control and lands on LV426

I would say that the 1979 Xeno that bursts from his chest layed the eggs which spawn the Xeno but i dont know if that would be acceptable.

EDIT: Maybe what bursts out of David ISNT a 1979 Xeno, they are in the eggs. This is what becomes Camerons QUEEN ??