Engineers and Sex

I do theink as of now we have only seen males of the species!

Interesting. I don't know if I'd follow you all the way down the, "assexual" track, if that's where you are going - but I would agree in that I see a definite leaning toward androgyny... Until I had more evidence, I'd say they were definitely male, but certainly with a strongly feminine component - where they appear to tap into the Classical art of ancient Greece and Rome, [perhaps the fictional suggestion being that the Classical art of Greece and Rome, tapped into [i]them[/i]]: they embody, "maleness", but at least as equally, "beauty". Narrowly speaking, I think the concept and design of that race is one of this film's few unqualified successes - but then, it's pretty damn hard to go wrong, if all you're doing is ripping off the likes of Polyclitus and Michelangelo. I'd love to see the females - if any...*ahem*..from a strictly, "artistic", perspective, of course....

It's funny how we attribute human charactoristics to genders...Now if the Female Engineers were of the Amazon type..watch out!

@Allinamberclad, I dont understand why you would say that the Engineers body type was a greco-roman rip off. Film is just another art form. Would you have been happy if they looked like Klingons or your average grey. There is nothing new under the son. That so called rip off of greco roman art was done by the Greeks themselves, when they began to imatate Egyptian art.

@Rubirosa That's point I was making? There is nothing new under the Sun. That would not be to say that the contemporary Art under discussion is without merit, of itself - hence my declaration of my view that the contemporary Art under discussion is one of this film's few unqualified successes? Apart from that, I didn't say anything about Klingons or, "average greys"?!..... You've lost me, there.

When I mentioned Klingons and greys I was refering to what we see depticted in hollywood as your everyday alien. I said that because I thought that it was almost impossible for you to believe that the Engineers would look so human in form. Thats all. Now let me ask you a question. If there are extraterestils out there. Would it be hard for you to believe that they would look humanoid in form. I myself do belive aliens exist. But in my opinion it all depends on how that species evolved. What source of nutrition it consumed. What color of the sun did that species evolve under. So in the end they could look like anything we might guess.

I hope you dont think I was offending you @allinamberclad

@Rubirosa "Why would you think that?" Is, perhaps, the question - perhaps for another day, as the one you ask is much more immediately interesting: "Would it be hard for you to believe that they would look humanoid in form?" Not, for me, no. I could very easily believe it - that is not to say I have an expectation that they would look humanoid: just that it wouldn't surprise me, if they did. It all depends - there seems to be a lot of fixation on Life, "as we know it": Goldilocks Zones and what have you: fine. Life, "as we know it", might follow principles and rules as we know them - it could be that this kind of bipedal, opposable-thumb, thing we have going would be the same kind of answer on a similar planet that followed similar rules of Life, "as we know it". Could be. Why not? However, there's a great we [i]don't[/i] know. "Life", might be presented to us in some very peculiar states ...perhaps, too peculiar for us to even recognise, that's the thing that I wonder about.... Anyway, that's IF, it exists. Yes, I said "IF" - please hit me with 12 pages of probabilities and whatnot else, if you really must. No: I am not yet offended. I will be sure to somehow alert you, if that time comes.

The reason I ask about Engineer sex, is the concept of 'no marriage ('sex') in heaven, be like the Angels' as per Matthew in the New Testament (which is presumably from the last time the Engineers visited Earth) Also the Monk like aesthetic of the Engineers... In the Prometheus universe it is of course the reverse, Monks are probably based upon them, not the other way round. So why do most monastic orders (of any religion) avoid sex? Whose instructions are they following? Does having sex in a bio-engineered universe have dangerous consequences? [img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/prometheusK_screencap50.jpg[/img]

@BrianNaughtyBoy Personally, I'm not sure I fully understand the perspective of that first question? I would say there is not much need for sex in Heaven? Strictly speaking, sex is an Earthly pursuit for the purposes of reproduction: according to my limited understanding, Angels/Heavenly Beings do not reproduce amongst themselves - or they do not reproduce, amongst themselves, in this way?... My understanding is that "Monks" - if I use it as a general shorthand - do not have sex, not so much as a consequence of following external, "instructions", and more as a consequence of following internal conviction? Monks vow to own nothing and remain celibate in order that they be free of the Earthly considerations and pre-occupations that having to attend to things like property and sex would involve - and they [i]choose[/i] this, they are [i]not[/i], "told"? They may feel or be termed to have been , "called", to make their service in this way, but the choice and the acceptance of what that calling means, must be theirs. Freedom from those considerations allow them to give themselves completely to a focus and meditation upon the Word of God and directly relevant matters. They give up the World and Earthly things, in order to better serve God. I think that is the context of this choice sex issue... What do you mean by "dangerous consequences"?

@allinamberclad The presence of the Engineers in Earths history suggest they have had influence in the development of the Earths religions. That concepts that religious humans have faith in, such as Heaven, Souls and Rebirthcycles of life, are derived from Engineer concepts. Do Engineers have Faith in an Heaven, or do they have Knowledge? Are they so far advanced that they have effectively created an 'afterlife' for themselves, possibly via an advanced biological memory store or even the old sci-fi trope of genetic racial memory? No evidence is given in the movie that the Engineers are anything other than advanced biologically entities who were worshiped as Gods for no other reason than they were more advanced than the 'natives' ( a standard von Daniken premise. ) Monks choose 'celibacy' because there is a long tradition of insular reflection. Where does this tradition come from? If the Engineers had not interfered with mankind in the Prometheus universe would holy men even exist? Who is it that 'calls' the monks to escape 'earthly considerations'? Who set the questions the Monks are trying to answer? - The Engineers did. And I would call the creation of a Xeno to be a pretty dangerous consequence of having sex under the influence of biotech.

@BrianNaughtyBoy OK, I think understand a little better. This is interesting - particularly as I think getting into these areas is where this particular fiction is in great danger, [without some very sophisticated handling I've yet to see evidence of], of running out of steam and then falling over, because these are, very sincere, very complex issues, fundamental to our nature and existence - re-inforced by the fact that it may be quite easy to say that you will play on all that as part of a fictional story about aliens, but that things get very difficult when you actually try and to do it, and play it all out - as you are doing, here: Agreed: over and above Engineers being Creators - the conclusion is fair that issues of Faith, are then issues of Faith in Engineers: who, by which token, humans - apparently, mistakenly - assume are actually Divine Beings, [ie.Supernatural], inside the Fiction. [i]Outside[/i] the fiction, [i]we[/i] know they are [i]not[/i] Divine. Then asking what the [i]Engineers[/i] may have Faith in, if anything, is fascinating. Perhaps they have created a Heaven of their own, by some of the means you speculate on, or several others. Or, perhaps they have their own belief systems, equally dependant upon a notional, Higher Being/s, above themselves - and perhaps they are equally mistaken that their Being is Divine: or, perhaps they are not as mistaken as we are.... Where does the Monks' tradition come from? Outside the Fiction, I would rather that this was all generated by humanity. I think the Engineers being being significant, but remote enough to move people,"spiritually", into generating this kind of behavior in humanity would be enough. I wouldn't like it so much that the Engineers were present enough to be literally teaching us how to be Monks etc... From that perspective, I'd rather the presence was huge, but slightly indirect. I actually think that would play out better. Just my preference. What is yours? Well, yes, sex was dangerous - for us, in the context that we saw it: but, we don't know the circumstances or purpose of Engineer sex - if they engage in it. We don't how they use their bio-tech, if they use it on themselves, in those circumstances. Under normal circumstances, sex is safe for reproduction, or it is not much value as sex for reproduction. It could be that they have they have accommodated their bio-tech in some way, under normal circumstances...in the same way that we have accomodated vaccines, so that the related diseases do not harm us and, meanwhile, we can continue to have sex parties without a thought to any of it... But, yes: on the other hand, it could be quite unhealthy - but there's no way to know...

the only question here gentlemen is....do they have penises?....and if so then why?...maybe they hermaphrodites...maybe they have no need for females...but that wont exclude sex....hmmm...so they might be very VERY gay!...one could also argue that they are perhaps an a-sexual race....but how do they reproduce then?...will we ever know...does Scott and lindelof even know?

Juxtapose - if their Genome is identical to ours as the film suggests, then why is that even in question?

Juxtapose, might I be allowed (though not encouraged) to drag this 'odd' discussion into the [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece]Greek Pederasty[/url] arena? All that polemic aside, I've let the group know my personal [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/8566]Mother Nature[/url] opinion on what the transmutative Females of the Engineer species one could meet in Paradise might be or (more importantly) do. :)

@craigamore Exactly - The Engineers are Human and so in appearance should cover the full range of humanity. I think that in augmenting themselves to be immortal, using tech based upon the extremely unstable Xeno material, they had to sacrifice a few things else run the risk of destroying themselves. But to continue in physical form they need to find a new way to propagate the species - their physical form can still be destroyed. Being 'gods' they can afford to think in the (extremely) long term - so they reconstitute their original form, unadulterated by tech, on a planet that they made suitable by seeding, and then, once they think the inhabitants are ready to 'transcend', they offer them the one way conversion to immortal engineerhood (and possible as a host for shared memories as above). And then the cycle starts afresh...

Firstly, the Engineers don't have [i]identical[/i] DNA to us. It's similar. If they had identical DNA, you and I would look like them. It may be the case that there is no place at all for sex, or the act of sex, in their "society". It is, after all, a rather base and animalistic subject, and could be regarded by them as something that a species should put behind it. On the other hand, they may be sex mad, and back home enjoy shagging like rabbits.

I was wondering...why do the engineers have belly buttons then? doesnt that mean they were born from females? and I guess that whole process involved sex?

tankgirl makes a very good point. Belly buttons are generated by a physical connection to a mother/placenta & a birthing process and its aftermath. This is my [i]intuition[/i]: Historically they are both male and female and that is still fundamentally a part of their existence in terms of awareness of it. Immortality comes with a very heavy price; the need to limit reproduction. You cannot just keep making babies that live forever. In 20,000 years there is nothing but a very thick layer of dead corpses on your planet if you do that. Of course terraforming would be a temporary stopgap, but likely not a perfect solution forever; and it's literally *forever* that you end up worrying about... My theory is that for whatever reason, there are VERY FEW if ANY female Engineers left alive, and if they are *that close* to us in terms of biology, that likely ANY that are left are now infertile. So, I imagine that their relationship to sex ([i]coitus[/i]) is likely quite complicated; or simply deprecated. I also feel that their society may be in decay and that may play a part in why they are terraforming and engaging in panspermia. Perhaps a subset of them is ready to give up immortality for a more satisfying, non-personal, legacy? There is no denying that the Sacrifice Engineer was artistically designed to be physically robust and beautiful; and HE is a MALE. Pray for the Restoration Cut to clarify that. Depending on how long females have been extinct, or just out of "general circulation" if they still exist, the vast majority of males may not even remember them very well. This could easily be a part of the "androgyny" vibe and the "celibate monk" vibe that the film has. Immortality in a species like ours, which is sentient, curious, and "needy", is fundamentally at odds with entropy and a lot of other fundamentals in the universe. You cannot have your immortal cake and eat it too (without paying some price.) I suspect that the goo is a result of a fundamental PROBLEM with the Engineers’ society; whether they created it themselves, or it was given to them by their 'Prometheus' (the proverbial 'fire'), or they "acquired" (stole) it from another civilization... perhaps even the 'original' progenitors of the xenomorphs... So. I assume that all those we've seen so far are MALE. This is an informed opinion. For now let my 'proof' be that David refers to the Last Engineer as "him." I assume that if they are androgynous or asexual, that that is a product of culture and psychology (more than being biologically based), and it was perhaps therefore emulated by religious humans on earth who honor celibacy as a function of holiness. I assume that Shaw *may* be the first female to show up on "Paradise" in "modern memory" and that that may play a big role in the storyline of any sequel. She may also be *adored* by some of them due to the fact that she may seem "childlike" to them due to her size. (All (mammalian) babies are 'cute' to us. It's instinct.) Though, the hair on her head may be off-putting to them. I'm not expecting to see too many "hot babe" female Engineers in the future, but if/when I do, I'm sure they will make Athena rage with envy and Apollo blush (to say the least). I will be SHOCKED if we ever see two males kissing each other erotically, but if Ridley’s equipped with the testicular equipment to make that happen, well BRING IT ON. That would certainly scare a lot more sh¡t out of people than Prometheus did.

I agree Sukkal about the mother and birthing process But then I remembered didn't the Deacon have a sort of attached placenta type thingy and he was born from a supposedly male Engineer? also might that be the reason the Engineer may have been interested in Shaw a female with enough DNA compatibility to breed might also give weight to Vickers being an andriod they would not have been interested in her?

I'm not convinced that that placental like bag/sac (doesn't it pulse a time or two??) isn't supposed to be a facehugger egg. There is artwork in the book that shows what are presumably the Deacon's hands holding what can only be described as "a egg". [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/gallery/view/img/441][img]http://www.prometheus-movie.com/media/concept026.jpg[/img][/url] The Deacon's placenta was around 'him' and designed to be like that of a horse foal. He tore himself out of it. [img]http://www.horseweb-uk.com/features/images/foaling1.jpg[/img]