Alien franchise "canon"

The RED ELEPHANT BLUE DONKEY game, eh? The Labour Conservative game, eh? The black white game, eh? The us vs them game, eh? The win win win at all costs CORPORATE WAR game, eh? It's the TAKING PART that matters, the PROFIT to be gained as a Player, DEBATE is just another GAME. The profit here (for better or for worse) is that THE ALIEN UNIVERSE took a narrative dogleg once Cameron added his Queen Bee jelly. Yes, you CAN cherry-pick from a Broken Canon to create any mish-mosh of chimera, you really can, it's totally valid and happens in REAL LIFE at every turn; I mean look at the world of finance, religion, internet - it's all illusion for GAIN. But (in classical Darwinistic terms) you have to 'find a suitable environment' for your 'random mutation'. I totally agree with the TOOMS-like aspect of THE ORIGINAL ALIEN WAS PANICKING setting two eggs to one side, so that his kind could continue on. This shows lineal awareness, a soul if you will. The giger-grunts in Aliens had been DE-SOULED, which might have been a necessary part of 'evolving' canon. Who knows? That was never mentioned. There was (give it credit where it's due) suggestion that they still had soul, or at least respect 1) when Queen passes they step aside 2) when Ripley3 is confronted dogalien recognises Queen Chestburster snuggled in chestly womb. If you're gonna DEBATE, enjoy the debate i.e. don't intend to WIN as that'll become your weakness.

Nicely put Freeplanet. If we were to draw a parallel to the politics of today, the thread seems more like an example of the polarization between our American conservatives and liberals. No real desire to cross the isle.... So many have said that by introducing the queen, Cameron turned the Alien into a bug. It does kind of seem like that doesn't it? I wonder if Cameron had a chat with Ridley about the Alien before creating Aliens....you know, to find an appropriate direction to take the next step. "The notion, you know, was taken off a certain type of insect that will use a host for its eggs and then in that host, preferably a grub, would bury its eggs in. Then, of course, the eggs would grow and consume the host. That's the logic of it all." Ridley Scott 1992 The alien life cycle was modeled after an insects, why not have a queen? I think Cameron did more research than people give him credit for.

Nrlfetmefan.....thank you for the apology. Anyway, we're cool, I have no issue with your opinion, I just differ from it. Heck, I grew up loving [i]Aliens[/i], I just grew to a stage it lost some of my respect, not all, but some and I do have a tendency to argue that perspective vigorously....so, sorry if I came off as strong as well.

@ craigamore...thanks for saying. Posting replies is like texting someone, no discernible inflection. I don't know if the community is having fun and the community doesn't know if I'm having fun during all of this debate. I personally am having fun. Hey guys, I'm a grown man who owns a successful business and I'm trying to build a house at the same time. I have have no energy to get angry with any of you. I look forward to my mornings with some coffee and the iPad and Prometheus-movie.com baby! Same goes for when Im unwinding after a long days work. I've always loved the alien franchise, but in the last year or so, this site has educated me on the many finer points of everything alien. I love it. I did make a huge mistake however when I started the thread and only noticed it this morning. I made a point of saying what is canon as opposed to what I wish or would like canon to be. Big difference between the two. Sorry about that. I was hoping for more of a fun and creative mixture of the best aspects of the entire franchise. Of course not everyone would agree, but since it cant hurt, why not try. I was thinking about this canon thing because the stories are there, whether we like them or not. The comic stories have been printed and the games have been played(avp2 survivor, aliens against marines...quarantine...my favorite). I suppose that Fox could reboot the franchise after the Prometheus movies are done with, but I seriously doubt it. It wouldn't be a surprise to me if a book comes out clarifying what the universe really consists of....hell, they did it for star wars many times. Anyway, back to some debate. In my previous post, I quoted Ridley talking about the idea for the alien being derived from a certain type of insect. Many people seem to dislike Aliens on the basis of how it turned the horrific Alien into a bug. His statement suggests to me that it is kinda supposed to be an alien bug. Thoughts?

Correct, the original life cycle was based on a wasp. I don't have a problem with the queen or the possibility of egg-morphs.

I like the idea of the xenomorphs having a 'Hive Mind' quality to them and their nature is, as well as Bio Mechanical, but Bio-Insectal'. Operating upon a common instinct and shared communial aspect that preserves and ultimately benifits the whole. Much like bees or as was said earlier wasps.

genjitsu-ju-nana, YES, but this was a LONE 'ichneumon wasp or braconid wasp', the one that injects its larvae into paralysed insects. [list] Spider wasps inspired the Alien's characteristic of laying eggs in a person's chest that later burst out. These insects are said to plant their eggs "in the abdomen of spiders." This image greatly disturbed Dan O'Bannon so he used it to write the film's story. But spider wasps (pompilidae) lay eggs on their prey, not inside them, after which the wasp maggots simply snack on the sting-paralyzed spiders. O'Bannon may have been thinking of either [b]ichneumon wasps or braconid wasps[/b] instead. The ichneumon drills a single egg into a wood-boring beetle larva while braconids inject eggs inside certain caterpillars. Both result in fatal hatch-outs more similar to O'Bannon's Alien. [/list] I.e. still no QUEEN or HIVE needed. There was an excellent short story by Cordwainer Smith called something like A Planet Named Shayol which had criminals being sent down to an inhospitable desert planet to give birth to extra limbs, eyes and internal organs so that others could live. This is the impression I get from the image below (from this original Giger painting) where the original ALIEN was capable of growing little alien babies off its own shell or skull or carapace, look at those skeletal foetuses under its protuberances. [img]http://www.alienlegend.com/Alien/Trivia/necronomiv.jpg[/img] I think something properly unique and truly wonderful as far as ALIEN LIFEFORM has just been BRUTALLY PROSTITUTED by Cameron's hiving of the space-race for simple rollercoaster entertainment, and that's the real shame here.

@freeplanet I totally see where your ideas are coming from. However, its hard for me to accept a lithograph that predates the final version of the Alien by quite a few years as basis for the intended lifecycle. There is no question that it was the necronomicon IV image that inspired the Alien, but the final design was modified quite a bit...don't you agree? Just sayin. Do any of you know of quotes or clips that elaborate on some of these ideas or questions? The Ridley commentary of alien makes note of the intended bug like life cycle, but the cocooning scene was not in that version. I did watch a 10min interview with Ridley where he discusses the cocoon scene and how the cocoon is consuming Brent and Dallas, but there is no mention of lifecycle or the turning them into eggs. However, there is no question in my mind that it appears Brent is being turned into an egg.

I see the whole thing as a "wasted opportunity" to PROPERLY expand the Alien Mythos (as it potentially had), you know rather than wandering off down 'hive' territory. :) Canon as all the Alien AVP films, I have no problem with. Seriously, the most important thing, for me, from the 'canon that became' is the AVP aspect (ironically) using the hive aliens as a manhood test.

Both life cycles co-exist for the Alien xeno, it is capable of either-or. The Queen was already in existence while the events of Alien were unfolding its just we never see her. 'Her' story was dealt with in the sequel but if you think of the logic of the situation she has always been there in existence upon LV-426 for a long, long time. The life cycle is dual-compatible, it can employ both as and when the time, motive or opportunity presenting itself should arise. The subsequent films were opportunities to expand upon the Alien xeno's life cycle potential. Thus far, the singlular alien xeno in aboard the Nostromo was attempting to preserve the destiny of the 'Hive' as a whole, like ants, it was pre-programmed from conception to birth to biologically conquer all before it to ensure both its and that of its colonies' survival. From growth to maturity it just became systematic in its intentions to overpower the crew and to begin the 'conversion process' upon both Brett and Dallas and it was in the advanced stages of succeeding with regards to Brett at least before Ripley happend upon the creatures 'nest' and torched it with the flame thrower.

Hyper Nova, good luck with your glowing new career in International Relations. LOL!

The only films are canon are Alien, Aliens, Alien 3 (maybe) Alien Resurrection and the new game Aliens Colonial Marines is also canon to the series. The others: Aliens comics, novels and the AVP stuff They were just made for money not made to be canon.

@ hypernova Near everything you wrote in your last post here makes good sense to me, yet selling the idea that the queen was there on lv426 for a long long time does not. I mean if they add that aspect into Prometheus sequals, than of course it would hold, but as of right now there is nothing to point us in that direction. Quoting Ridley(which contradicts some of my previous posts on other threads), the cavern under the derelict was not a cavern, but a cargo hold, storing a bio weapon of some kind. He goes on the say that he always saw it to be that way and that the jockey was a victim of its cargo. The question for me would be,"why have a queen along for the ride?"

Whats with the sarcasm FreePlanet, its just not necessary. Yet another example of attacking someone for no justifiable reason because that is easier then trying to flesh-out what they are proposing instead. Your just a kid, a little boy. Try being a young man for a change and you'll notice the diference - as will I.

Hyper Nova, "Both life cycles co-exist for the Alien xeno, it is capable of either-or. The Queen was already in existence while the events of Alien were unfolding its just we never see her." that's the reason for my 'boyish sarcasm'. A film with ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for a Queen and there ya go INVENTING one, just like Cameron did - evoking Satan for his own nefarious purposes etc. Alien was PURE (elusive, biomorphic, alluring like a vampire) and there was no need for a Queen. Even with a PLANET-full of aliens, doing what they did, on their homeworld, preying, parasitic. The eggs-morphs could have been planted on the floor aeons ago by an ALIEN RACE vowing to escape 'some sort of tragedy on their homeworld' like a NOAH'S ARK or something, sacrificing themselves to make as many egg casings as possible In my mind, when a human becomes an EGG he is in a praying position, hands together, that's where the FACEHUGGER comes from - hands and spinal column. No need for Queen, just a desperate race of loners coming together (ha, sounds like the internet). Though the laser mist still gives me a problem, unless that was a property of the original derelict's security. And we STILL need to know who the original GANESHA-like elephant race was, because I'm still of the opinion that Engineers back-engineered the Space Jockey for themselves i.e. Prometheus didn't even answer THIS question; this fundamental question for its existence as a project, thirty years later. :)

@ Freeplanet and hypernova You both have ideas that with an open mind I would consider intriguing. However, both are speculation and personal interpretation. It's hard for me to understand where sarcasm and defensive reactions come from when both of your ideas are equally stretching the implied story lines. I would like to make it clear though that both of your ideas or opinions are intriguing and post interesting ideas about where a Prometheus sequal will go. @ Hypernova....will you elaborate on why you feel the queen has always been their? Obviously a lot of die hard fans think the queen was an abomination to the franchise. I believe it was a logical next step for a writer to take and consider the queen to be canon.

O.k. I will tell you. With regards to the Space Jockey, the film makers of Alien wanted to indirectly introduce us 'the human race' both as characters and viewers alike to a near Humanoid race that has already befallen tragically to the intentions of the Xeno that were later made abundantly clear during the unfolding events of Alien. It was put there as a warning from history, inter-stellar, galactic history more to the point. It can be a good bet to make an educated guess with objective, use your head reasoning that what ever emerged from the SpaceJockey may have been the 'cause' for the cargo left aboard The Derilct; a process that was mirrored with Kanes 'infection' and subsequent birthing ordeal. The Space Jockies remains, whetther fossilized or otherwise, serves as a reminder to us that this is the fate that awaits any and all other beings in the galaxy whom have the unfortunate concequence of happening upon this Derilict space craft or this organism as a whole. But, the organism in question is capable of multiple life cycle 'get-out clauses' should evolution be steering their species towards extinction. It seems more than likely that what the producers were trying to suggest was that some being had emerged from the Space Jockey and 'caused' all of the eggs down in the silo to be laid - a queen xeno in this case. The next possibility is that the 'cargo' was already in exsistance and the Space Jockey got infected after the fact. But that could still have been a Queen and made its way out of the Derilict and set up a hive elswhere and never returned to the Derilict to retrieve the eggs for reasons unknown. She is away doing her thing perhaps in a cave or something but she was 'birthed' from the Space Jockey as in a former set of events playing out the life forms in the Space Jockies possesion were then isolated from the proximity of their main colony so their natural instinctive cycle of life went into over drive and began spawning a queen parasite/embryo post-facehugging the SJ. 'She' hatches and thus a whole new colony can be built, later on down the generations the events of Prometheus an Alien play out which then lead into Aliens and the later films in the franchise and so now here we are currently debating the time line 'canon' for posterity. This is why I can say it is moe than likely she has been in exitence for quite a while, perhaps not millions of years, not even hundreds of thousands of years or tens of thousands of years for that matterand maybe not even just merely thousands of years but certainly i would be confident to say many centuries at least - several, that would suit the 'tone' and condition the Derilict was found in. perhaps many more at a stretch but I would find it compelling that the Derilict had been around for much longer than that as it would add to the end of a species plight. Their tradegy is now to become our tradegy soon should we continue exposure with the alien organism.

"It seems more than likely that what the producers were trying to suggest was that some being had emerged from the Space Jockey and 'caused' all of the eggs down in the silo to be laid - a queen xeno in this case." The problen with this HyperNova, is that the queen concept was an invention of Cameron well after the first film was in the can and on the screen. It was never orginally intended for there to be a queen/hive biology to this organism. As it was originally conceived and written, the alien used its victims as a central part on an entirely new means of procreation: The body of said victim is cocooned and covered in a bile-like secretion that transforms its organic matter into a new egg. There was never any hint of the queen/hive biology in the original concept, script, shooting script or finished print of [i]Alien[/i]. If anything, the finished theatrical cut merely omits that aspect of the organisms life cycle. It doesn't definitively display that aspect either way...so to suggest that the producers suggested this notion of the newly born alien laying the eggs in the cargo hold just isn't right.

Now, at this juncture, you have to just be willing to marry the Alien cycle now with the Aliens cycle and put it in your mind that this is the capacity of this life form and bring yourself to accept both procreation cycles as redundancy to the other. It does both and has done ever since it has been in existence...

Canon aside, last night I watched Blade Runner and noticed something I had not noticed before...the dcut does not have Deckards narrative. Theatrical cut does, dcut does not. No big deal really, but it shows that for whatever reason, sometimes the director adds or removes aspects for whatever purpose they see fit. In Alien theatrical there are scenes or aspects of scenes that have been removed for the dcut and visa versa. When the theatrical version was cut, who knows, maybe the intention was for us the audience to assume that the creature that birthed from the jockey was responsible for the eggs in the "cavern". Yet!...Ridley says that the cavern was a cargo hold and the jockey was a victim of the cargo. It makes me think that during the time of Alien production, there was no thought of a sequal. Ridley had two choices: 1. Put together the old team or 2. Let the story go to the next guy...Cameron(not that he could predict this). Alien was just that...A L I E N. Whether it be the Nostromo or the derelict, the jockey or the alien, the face hugger or the chest burster, the planet or the stellar location and finally, the story and how we were to perceive it...it was just plain alien and out of this world.