After some thought I have decided to reverse my opinion regarding eggs transform

I always assumed that under normal circumstances a Queen would lay eggs, but in emergencies when there is no Queen or if she dies they "create" eggs from harvested genetic material to re-populate, making a new Queen. I bet Dallas REALLY regrets not going through with the Quarantine like Ripley wanted--> [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS5MtzrW1vU]Alien deleted scene: The Cocoon Sequence [/url] Btw, the Alien 3 second chestburster is a mystery not even Michio Kaku could solve using his parallel worlds and Wormhole theories....

Well nostromo001, here is the pickle, because your position as stated above suggest's that you originally thought the eggs in the LV-426 Juggernauts silo were originally placed there from a Queen born from the dead pilot, yet now it seems you side with the idea that the eggs were originally the engineer crew. Yet there is a third option, one of which I personally thinks makes the most sense - I'll summarise as best I can... [u]Circa 2000 years ago[/u] - Juggernaut leaves LV-223, deploys urns on planet "X" - Urns infest planet, Xenomorph infestation results - All suitable hosts extinguished, only Queens and eggs remain - Fleet of Juggernauts arrive collect all the eggs - One of these Juggernauts flies through the ZIIR system - Juggernaut receives distress beacon from LV-223 (the outbreak) - Pilot leaves chair to investigate orerry display of beacon - Sensing a host, egg opens, Facehugger escapes, spits acid at floor panel - Pilot smells burning, sees Facehugger approaching - Pilot, back in seat, hurries the suit to close, but... - Facehugger attaches to pilots face before mask can close - The Pilot unconcious the Juggernaut drifts toward LV-426 - Juggernaut crashes, shortly after Pilot awakes - The FH still on his face, inside the mask, the Pilot activates the warning beacon - Pilot also opens a door into the Fin shaped arm of the Vessel - Pilot born Chestburster emerges, sees open door... - Chestburster heads towards door and it shuts. [center][i]And how this all fits in with the rest.[/i][/center] 2000 years later - 2093, Prometheus discovers the bio-weapon Urns on LV-223 - 2122, Nostromo arrives at Thedus, Ash replaces Scince Officer - En-route back to Earth Nostromo is redirectd to LV-426 - Kane, Dallas and Lambert enter the Juggernaut from the vaginal entrances - Kane lowered down the hole falls foul to one of the eggs - Ash, under special order 937 attempts to secure a specimen - All crew dead, Ripley discovers Brett being "morphed" into an egg beside Dallas - Ripley is unaware that Brett will become an egg incubating a Royal Facehugger (see Alien 3) to which Dallas will become the host, thus siring a Queen. - Ripley destroys the Nostromo - 2159, Hadleys Hope colony established on LV-426, an initial crew of 158, composed of approx 70 families - 2177, Amanda Ripley Mclaren dies of cancer - 2179, Ellen Ripley discovered aboard the Narcissus - After Ripleys hearing the co-ordinates of the Juggernaut are sent to the colony - The Jordens investigate the hammerhead arm, beginning another infestation - One week later contact with the colony is lost - Ripley, Burke and the USCM under Lt. Gorman are dispatched - 2 weeks later Ripley, Newt, Hicks and Bishop head back to Earth - Somehow (???), two eggs are aboard the Sulaco, EEV deployed to Fury 161 - Hicks and Newt die in the crash, Ripley is host to a Queen embryo from a Royal Facehugger, later found by prisoner Murphy. - Receiving Ripleys medical scan a W-Y vessel is dispatched. - Ripley commits suicide, her blood is taken, Morse placed in custody, Fury 161 shut down. - 2381, the USM successfully clone Ripley twice (7 and 8. ) removing the Queen from her chest. - Queen specimen 7 (tainted) kept aboard the Auriga - Queen specimen 8 (perfect) sent to Earth - Crew of Betty and Ripley 8 survive Auriga infestation, land on Earth.

You can also infer that nature has in some ways found a way to reproduce itself. Lets say the only way for an egg to get created is if the alien grunt/warrior xeno as on the Nostromo used secreted resins to thus 'convert' viable living organisms into eggs taking that method and looking way back in time to some distant place where the Xenos first came into being. Yes they some how created eggs out of people but perhaps this method was not a secure garantee of survival so nature through natural selection and converting so many 'viable' specimens somehow into new eggs suddenly developes a new method, out of which suddenly springs forth the first proto-queen xeno and now the alien life cycle has a safety net and a guaranteed lifecycle should any thing go wrong it simply differs to its back-up method of survival. More queens get created whom have become isolated from the original colony, thus, new colonies are formed and so the cycle continues on into the generations of the future. I read this somewhere too where the alien takes on the attribute and adapts its lifecycle to the challenges of the Darwinian experiment: adapt to the changes taking place else perish. I got that from the books as well as the scripts and various tie-ins with the comics as well. You just need though, to make it valid, an originator of sorts. One that does the secreted resin to turn the first 'valid specimens' into eggs in the first place. That is where the Black Liquid comes in. It eventually results in a proto-facehugger being born as a result of a Shaw/Holloway-type experiment, thus it facehugs an Engineer or other valid lifeform, creates the first proto-xeno like the Deacon and from that Deacon it can capture other beings. There may be other Deacons running around on other planetoids doing similar things as was explored on LV-223. It can incarcerate them, imobilze them, secrete resins around them to turn them into the first batch of eggs an simply wait for more 'live test subjects' to unwittingly happen along and find them lying there, dormant: as was the case for Kane and the Nostromo crew and so the cycle goes. The Queen method is simply the lifeform perfecting its survival rate prospects and capabilities by increasing its chances of remaing in control of its own destiny by exploiting every possibly nook and cranny there is in nature ensuring it never dies or goes extinct. Its an addition. There has been threads about this before that I've read, I found it compelling and it really makes sense when thinking of the alien life-cycle as a sort of weed or a fungus spore that has found ways to infiltrate nature both head-on and vicariously through the back-door of evolution. Its really quite a facinating idea, by all accounts the alien lifeforms in some ways are almost immortal themselves when it come to nature always testing them, trying to destroy them, making them go extinct. It keeps coming back in new and inventive ways that prevent its extermination. The Queen cycle is merely one of those ways now, if a grunt/warrior finds itself isolated from its former birthing colony it merely goes into redundancy mode and effects a tranformation of a potential 'live host' for matter-convertion and lie dormant for a live host subject to be facehugged for the incubation process to begin, resulting in either another grunt/warroir to secure their position then manipulate events so they can assist with a queen chest burster next or it is just a queen chestburster straight-away.! She begins laying an entire horde of eggs, they lie in stasis and wait for them to be discovered then a Hadelys Hope outbreak/epidemic/infestation begins. Also, regarding the two eggs conundrum, the Queen that got aboard the drop-ship could have just carried two with her, from where? Not sure. This is probably either two things that I have thought of, she (the Queen) simply goes into a survival mode for the presevation of her kind, her brood and her race, she just produces two eggs to be sure, one for a grunt/warrior chestburster and one eventually as a Queen chestburster or the other way around. Secondly, its a bit of a continuity error on the part of the filming fiasco and the eventual debacle it all became when they had to re-shoot things in different contexts for Alien 3 and all the rest of it. So saying that the Queen simply laid, or somehow carried two more eggs with her onto the drop-ship then onto the Sulaco I guess gets around the problem that way. Incidentally, the idea that the egg silo down in the bottom of the Derilict is some how the last remenants of a civilization (perhaps the last of the Engineers) 'converted' into eggs perhaps as a form of execution and then to be left there in storage like that down there has got to be one of the most creepy and intriguing ideas about the origins of that cargo and the alien xeno lifecycle. I hadn't quite considered that concept until Nostromo1 proposed it. This is an EXCELLENT idea and proposal! Great thread, Nostromo1 - and by-the-way: you are forgiven!

@Nostromo001 - I agree! I still think the extended version of the original Alien shows Dallas, Brett & the others being coccooned into eggs.

Egg transformation? Not buying it. It was a deliberate mistake made by the greedy cash-grabbing industry that Hollywood is.

@Gimmeafacehug; It's not a mistake, Ridley Scott even says Brett is being transformed into an egg its on the anthology, 2 disc special edition DVD (probably on the blue ray too) commentary and in the behind the scenes alien book. [IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/1snw3t.png[/IMG]

@ Svanya, hi, long time no seen you're right, but it's still a special edition and not the theatrical release. Ridley decided to omit that section for good reasons imo. Alien eggs are transformed humans? get out of here! lol

@Gimmeafacehug; It was taken out for pacing but was reintroduced in what Ridley considers THE version of the movie. His words, not mine.

@ Svanya 'pacing' yes, indeed. I absolutely agree, and it would have slowed down the movie( by quite an extent), but it wouldn't have made much sense either. I prefer the queen then. Less then a month waiting for Aliens: colonial marines. Hoora.

To me it makes sense, having both breeding options (Queens and the ability to transform organic matter into eggs) makes the Xenos a much more formidable creature.

Svanya, no matter how hard you try to educate the masses some are just slow to see the wood for the trees. No matter.

Yep I am going with the two life cycle option. This species is nothing if not resilient. Their entire intelligence seems to be instinctual and geared toward survival and having two life cycle modes would best insure that outcome.

I think the idea of humans morphing into facehugger eggs seems far-fetched unless there was a feasible and logical explanation of this. The Queen idea makes more sense to me. Also, Scott would have to explain the metallic urns on LV223 to fleshy eggs on LV426 evolution as well. Also, in an earlier conversation with Indy John these urns being biological weapons doesn't make sense if the purpose was to destroy Earth. One foreign ship flying into Earth space would get shot down. If he stealth flew onto the surface wouldn't it take a long time for the xenos to transform things on the planet? Despite being creatures with stunning adaptiveness and accelerated growth abilities they're vulnerable to human weapons and possibly to other Earth microorganisms and viruses. Like John, I can't buy the weapon idea. I know David mentions "In order to create one must first destroy," and Shaw thinks there would be "nothing to go back to" if the Engineer's ship gets to Earth first. I just think it would take too long. There's more efficient ways of destroying a planet. Perhaps the Engineers had a better weapon for destroying Earth and then introducing the xenos was stage 2.

Well Theseus, you and Indy are welcome to your own view and its is interesting to see that there are other views out their from which we can contrast our own views with. BTW the explanation by RS is not necessary as no one has suggested that the the metallic urns directly relate to the eggs at all. They are two distinctly different phenomena. The urns contain the black goo, and the eggs only relate to a stage of the life cycle of xenomorphs. Most of us have determined the goo to be either a potent mutagen that usurps the genetics of the victim converting them into a bioweapon themselves, or possibly possessing a secondary function as yet undisclosed.

The cocoons are the starting point of a hermaphrodite xenomorph to ensure the survival and expansion of the species, then comes the queen, the colony and the whole matter of the Praetorians. I further agree that the eggs were laid there in the Juggernaut, you should remember the blue mist. And with the urns, well, are just the beginning of a cultivation I guess. But anyway for me the two cycles are canonical, even though the Scott cycle is more creepy, but slower and less practical at the same time.

agreed 100% Shambhala.

Yes but what if there's a part that truly does connect the two cycles, and the original morphing cycle idea is still yet to be tweaked and expanded on? Plus a seldom seen third variable that explains the connection between the two types of reproduction and the hierarchy/sexual based class division in the Aliens. So far we've seen the drones, warriors and Queens, but there's a sexually based class division. The warriors almost could be males that remain servants to the Queen. Males have little importance in the original cycle, yet they are still there... You said it yourself Shambhala some of the xenomorphs are hermaphroditic, containing both sexes. Fifield asks "you really think that's a she?" to Millburn about the Hammerpede because of the presence of both sexes in the species... And the Hammerpede, like the Alien head, resembles the male sexual symbolism more than the female side. Although it can be viewed as female because normally each Alien contains the female genetics, and a fully functioning egg laying gene along the x chromosome, when it bursts out of a human. However, Shaw didn't pass this egg laying trait along... Humans may be necessary to even bring about a sexual division.... and their genetics have always been important to the Aliens. Anything that burst out of something with a sexual division will mimic this sexual division... That's why there really could be Jockey females out there and we have the Engineers without nipples, repressed x chromosomes (while still being genetic matches). And all the male themes within Prometheus, like Weyland wishing he had a son and not wanting to let Vickers take over as Queen. "A king will have his reign and then he dies... it's the natural order of things" Again we've never exactly seen the very early stages of hive building... "Big things have small beginnings"... things plural. Ridley said it's about how the mommy and daddy meet... one of those stages was female but the egg laying trait in Shaw was dormant... It was Holloway's infection and Holloway's sperm that morphed the egg within her. We also have other morphing going on but the eggs aren't in the mix. The clue for this is that there are no eggs, and Vickers never got to be Queen. Although the King will always die early in the process of the transfer of power over the drones and hermaphrodites... If there's a Queen it's like the reverse of Weyland being a King. Weyland controlled a lot of things and was subtly manipulating his servants, but two of those servants go against Weland's male only programming (the auto med). In the Aliens the Queen usually has complete control of her drones and male warriors, suppressing the males... The Engineers have suppressed their x chromosomes, but must still have them to be genetic matches with us. Shaw is infertile, thus no egg laying trait was passed to a deacon. If an Engineer is infected no egg laying trait is passed on. If a male is infected, he does carry an x chromosome and can pass on the ability for the alien to lay eggs... but Holloway contributed a y chromosome in the mutated sperm cell... "You really think that thing [the Deacon] is female?" and Ridley is gonna use the same old Aliens. Or did the genetics get altered so that the male is now in control, and a king will have his reign? While Vickers, the potential Queen, is left dead on Lv-223 as the King genetics/programming escaped and was reborn... Meaning King David has some parallels with the head of the Hammerpede that was cut off and instantly regrew... While the body sprouted a new head. The head theme is connected to leadership... Also how the Weyland lineage just got severed. And the head of that lineage was cut off. But a new head has to step up and lead the company. The company is a monster like the Hammerpede that has programming in place to regrow it's head when it appears to be dead... This relates to the morphing cycle and how the Alien is hermaphroditic, with a backup plan for when there are no queens/no eggs to send out a signal to suppress the males... It can then lean on the more male form of reproduction: the morphing. Like how sperm penetrates the egg and fertilizes it so that it goes threw rapid changes, developing through stages and having rapid cell division/mutation. If a hermaphroditic alien can break away from the Queen/Eggs and starts a new hive via morphing one or more people, there's a chance the male genetics will start to take over, as it's the queen who normally sends out certain signals. The engineers were also supposed to be hermaphroditic. It can go either way for the next generation as a hive is being built, so humans actually have a division in our sexes. The Elders don't. And the original Jockeys are something entirely different that was stolen from and forced into subjugation by the male only Elders... The medical device being programmed only for males is a clue as to what the Engineers were doing. They honored the old form of the genetics, but they wanted their form to be made up of only warriors, and morphers. To enhance the effectiveness of the weapon. But it backfired on them without the female genetics to keep the Aliens somewhat stable. The Engineers were Kings not Queens. They were better at making war and defensive capabilities in the early stages, but without females to help guide the species they became chaotic and less logical. More driven on pure instinct like Shaw is. Not logic like David. I strongly believe we're in for some massive reversals. If an Alien drone is allowed to become a full male it becomes a warrior... Usually the Queen is necessary to run the hive. But we also never exactly see the very early stages of a hive before a queen arises and what egg morphing may have produced. While the original alien becomes a servant to what it produces.

In essence there's a division in the Engineers based on drones (light angels), Warriors (dark angels) and Kings(Elders). But there is also a hidden Queen aspect. In Aliens there are drones, warriors and Queens, with a hidden/suppressed male-King aspect. The Engineer at the beginning was a light angel or a drone, and contained both sexes. That's why when we're produced we're able to have both sexes arise... The drones in each species are hermaphroditic in some ways. Although the Engineers tried to repress the female side (they lack nipples, a trait all males carry because of the x chromosome). In early concepts the Engineers were hermaphroditic and actually had breasts... This was altered because they now repress their hidden female side. Even the word drone does have certain male connotations when looking at honey bees. But the Alien hermaphrodites that morph & can leave to start hives can also become Praetorians or Deacons and are totally different than the drones... The drones have that ability to morph and to become female hidden away... The Queen also suppresses other Queens from forming via the drones once she arises. Before this period there's a time when the morphing cycle is at work and the King is trying to make his reign last a little longer... exactly like what Weyland was doing. The Engineers can't reproduce naturally. In honey bees drones are stingless. The Deacon might have some sting to it as it spreads the message of the Alien gods and serves the King.

This reminds me one old puzzle: what came first an egg or the hen/rooster in our case :-)

Exactly. What about the rooster? Doesn't the egg still need to be fertilized if it came first? It would take two things not existing first to make the egg first. It takes more than just the hen to make the egg in the first place. The egg contains both sexes if it came first and could also produce a Rooster. However, the Rooster also has that problem where it can't exist without the egg. And vice versa. I think a hermaphroditic hen comes first and evolved out of some earlier species that carried the hermaphroditic trait like some lizards that are related to dinosaurs and birds do ;) Then a rooster has a chance of arising, but in the chicken species it's usually all about the hen. And there could be a reason in nature for hermaphrodites occurring in higher degrees when certain things happen and a species bottlenecks and almost goes extinct...

first the urn and then the rooster :D

Simplest way to reconcile both life cycles is the exceedingly old theory that in order to start a hive, a non-Queen can morph a host into an egg and that egg will bear a hugger that can produce a Queen. Though that isn't quite what was happening on the Nostromo.

I think the urns are kind of like the offspring as well as ceremonial offerings... and some of the male leaning hermaphrodites that could turn into Kings might even be devoured and morphed by the Praetorian morpher before she completes her cycle and molts to the Queen. That's the thing, there might be a repressing thing going on with the actual genetics. And there might be hermaphrodites that seem more like males or females. Ones that can actually fertilize themselves and those that can't, and have to inject something and morph it with the male side. But still contain both parts.

Aliens don't need kings.

IMO the victims of black goo will give rise to a hermaphrodite xenomorph-like-creature. Then this being begins to capture other life forms to turn them into eggs. From this small group one of the drones evolves into a Praetorian and then in a Queen, and now we have a colony. Finaly the queen can lay eggs with royal facehugger to create more colonies and expand the race.

In the urns I see a mixture of the black goo and alien genetics where the old genetics, with a predisposition towards the Queen and egg laying method, has been broken down, diluted, and rearranged and combined in different ratios. In essence re-born like we were from the original Engineer genetics, but this time with a different sexual order programmed into the genetics. To produce male leaning hermaphrodites that lead to more warriors, longer lifespans for male leaning hermaphrodites (the original alien dying), and the long term appearance of Kings. Kings would normally be killed/morphed/devoured by the Queen before we ever see a hive... Sort of like in black widows and preying mantises.... Not to really bring up the bug thing too much, but even the original parts of the lifecycles were based on certain bugs and parasites. With the morphing thing there's one creature that actually turns its victims into almost living zombies who carry the parasite until it hatches a number of small eggs out of them...

What purpose does a king serve?

But anyway the creature resulting from the urns could evolve into a queen instead of wrapping his victims in cocoons. Who knows, my comment above is because maybe Ridley want to restore his original idea, as well as some old ideas of Dan O'Bannon were used to Prometheus.

[quote]What purpose does a king serve?[/quote] Good question, I think the Queen does not need a king.

The King would have always been there as a backup plan for when there are no Queens or no eggs. The original Alien can't produce eggs on its own and starts to resort to egg morphing until others are produced that can become a queen. It needs to stay mobile to protect the Queen because the queen will be stationary. But like human genetics with male or female, there's a chance a male leaning one will be produced and become a Deacon instead of a Praetorian. Normally it dies as soon as a Praetorian arises out of the first created and the Praetorian uses the King to become Queen and produce/morph/feed/impregnate her offspring... There's a freudian thing to that I won't go into too much. But basically the Queens don't only repress/rule the male side. They will actually cannibalize and morph it in the process of establishing dominance and eliminating the kings less effective method of reproduction. As more servants drones/workers become available. Once more Aliens and warriors are produced the Queen can remain stationary and begin laying more eggs that will all come out pre-fertilized because of the cannibalism of the male side.... But until that time its evolutionarily advantageous for the King to remain highly mobile, and driven on instinct. Not able to have complete control over his drones... Born into the world ready to keep morphing more victims. Taller then the Queen, but more agile mean and lean. Even bigger if born from an Engineer originally. Every Queen needs a King. And vice versa. That's what I was hinting at with the fertilizing of the egg thing, and how Shaw giving birth isn't a miracle. It's science fiction. This is all about the joining of the female and male side... "how the mommy and daddy meet" The daddy in this case might be a lot bigger. In Engineers it's the opposite... Sexual dimorphism is something that means on average the males, or females in a species are vastly different in size and appearance from the other sex. They can even start to grow completely apart and start evolving separate traits... In the Engineer species the females would be larger. They're missing their Queens too. The true creators of life. The female side.

All this is based on...?

well If the first Queen lays eggs with royal facehuggers to create more colonies, then this first queen can evolve into a king to control the new colonies. Though maybe a warrior can also evolve into a king.

@ThatSM, you have reason to doubt and [url=http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/King_Alien]here's[/url] your source lol, I think that also appears in a [url=http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Rogue]comic[/url] but definitely not canon.

Well that settles it then! Kings are pointless.

I'm thinking the Praetorian starts to make all of the males obsolete and turns them into the male drones and warriors forcing them to serve/protect her and makes the morphing method obsolete. So both sexes are needed separate, combined, and they need to trade off power to ensure the creation of a successful hive. In honey bees the word drone has those male connotations, but the males are mere workers and unable to produce honey or sting. I base a lot of this on the Ultramorph concept, which could be what the Deacon grows into. Not only that: certain themes in Prometheus, like why the sex scene is there and the mixing occurs that way. How Vickers calls Weyland king and we have a new type of Alien coming into the mix. She says "a king has his reign... then he dies, it's inevitable. The natural order of things." This may be foreshadowing. Not that Vickers knows, but Fox and Ridley may know exactly where they're going with some of the gender themes. Weyland wanted a son... He didn't want a daughter... Another thematic link. The auto med designed only for males... this symbolizes Shaw's struggle against the male only programming/genetics of the King... There's more but I also know things from conceptual stages. There could be a few different ways to take some of the king stuff... It may be King David we see running the company instead, or some combination of both storylines...

I agree that the xenomorph should have a kind of pre-gender role like its a hermie. If we consider that if the whole space jockey being impregnated by a hermaphroditic creature has to reproduce somehow because thats natures way. But the original canon about the humans or other creatures becoming the egg is to me a good idea but makes no sense in a way the movie is presented. The space jockeys are the makers or at least the gene manipulators of the creatures. Plus James Cameron did something that no one else would.....he changed the concept to make sense.

So it's more an abstract concept than an actual creature.

Does it matter whether its canon or not I mean I can understand AVP but Alien 3 not canon, come on!

and Who says that Alien 3 is not canon? lol I was referring to the King concept, that for now is not canonical and that link was just a source.

Mala'kak you need to stop making excuses for an outside movie script change. I see this from you all the time your making up stuff that Ridley Scott hasnt even invented but yet her you are spewing nonsense. There is symbolism in the movie about Vickers and Weyland but thats it. The whole king and queen thing just doesnt hold water when it comes to the actual movies. Your basing your ideas from a freakin comic-book. The king thing is Weyland NOT referring to the Engineers. The storyline has no such thing in it nor does the script. I think you make up these just so you sleep at night.