After some thought I have decided to reverse my opinion regarding eggs transform

It's something Hill and Giler wanted to do for a long time, but Ridley may have found a way to make it work with the morphing cycle so that it ties into many themes and concepts like the religious stuff and the creation of Eve out of Adam's ribs. (Taking a part of his genetics). It wasn't really needed or really much of an option when dealing with eggs, because then it follows the normal methods of reproduction and organization. But the Engineers have a totally different sexual division than us and that's part of why they were hermaphrodites in the early concepts. And now it's more so about the repression of patriarchy/matriarchy of one side or the other. In humans the x chromosome was allowed to be separated and fully expressed. The Engineers lack nipples, which means something is wrong with their x chromosome. They still have to have it to pass it on to us and be genetic matches. So, something weird is going on and there are female engineers out there somewhere... Likewise there may be more to the male side of the Alien genetics that we don't know yet. I'm not blowing smoke or making themes up where they don't exist... There really is a reason that Ridley said in interviews this is "how the mommy and daddy meet". You have to look at it this way, many things in the movie have more than one meaning... Especially David's lines. Although David knows exactly what he's hinting at, while Ridley and the movie itself uses this technique to mislead and deceive slightly... David never specifies what he's talking about sometimes because it applies to many things.. That's how he gets away with lying... and misleading like leaders sometime do... It's about the leadership themes and that theme even runs through Lawrence of Arabia, and the head stuff.

I do apologize for being trite with you and am sorry. I myself have done that with the Predators. I kinda made my own reason why they do and what they are. The symbolism could work when it comes to the Alien xenos and Weyland of course. I think the Space Jockeys have a different culture and its something we have ahard time understanding who they are as a speacies.

I read a book to where the Engineers were not hermaphrotie but they were a third gender race. Male and Female and then one to carry the baby to term. What they could be doing is that they the Elders are just totally imersed in suppressing their females and are mostly masculine. The nipple thing might just be a fact that they're aliens and we aren't and do have them. The Engineers at least we know now that they do have Males and Females but they are not shown for some reason.

Lets keep it civil guys plz. :)

No worries, see it's kind of like the movie itself is tricking us so I'm working from the standpoint of learning to expect the opposite of what you would expect. So instead of seeing the Alien, we did see a slightly different version of the Alien. Instead of LV-426, we ended up with LV-223. Instead of gods, we found man. So archaeological principles and comparisons of culture do exist for the Engineers, but not the Elders or possibly the females because of a phenomenon called sexual dimorphism. Genetic principles may apply to all species. "In some species such as insects, spiders, many fish, reptiles, birds of prey and certain mammals such as the spotted hyena, and blue whale, the female is larger than the male. As an example, in some species females are sedentary and sparsely distributed, and so males must search for them. Vollrath and Parker argue that this difference in behaviour leads to radically different selection pressures on the two sexes, evidently favouring smaller males.[23] Cases where the male is larger than the female have been studied as well,[23] and require alternate explanations."... If you get what I'm saying about the original Jockeys, then that Jockey in the derelict could have been a pilot like Ripley... Instead of Vickers getting to rule the company or ever returning, we may find that David does come to rule the company... Instead of seeing a Queen in the series, we may end up seeing a King. Instead of the original Jockeys we got the Engineers and something weird with that circular craft... I sort of know some of how the pattern has been changed now to reflect "the trick". The trick is not minding that it hurts. That we've been conditioned to expect some things, but we may find the complete opposite, or something that is a similar parallel story... Even in the first trailer we shared a pavlovian response when we heard the familiar sounds, saw the familiar sights, thought the familiar ship was the same ship crashing, and mistook the stimuli for something that was similar like when a cat or dog starts noticing the stimuli and thinks it's getting a treat... It's something far different and bigger and scarier than a treat. However, the stimuli seemed the same. Some saw/heard and reacted to the familiar stimuli in the trailers (based on the original Alien trailer, the original treat). But it led to us being wrong. And the director and Fox made all of us victims of a Pavlovian response... I've learned through this and other ways to expect the opposite... Just like how there's some psychological conditioning going on by David and Weyland on the crew. Certain use of trigger words that can mean anything the person chooses to believe. Like Paradise.

I agree, plus I think that the discussion is diverting from the original thread. :)

@Shambhala; Indeed, this thread is seriously deviating from the OP's original intent.

We are no problem Svanya I said I apologized I didnt want to attack the guy by himself, just the conceptual theory. I know he is Not making this up but maybe he or me too just has an alternate explaination to this question. I meant no harm by it even though it kinda came off that way.

@Annunakki; Yup I know, it's all good.

I'll repost this part about sexual dimorphism just to be clear how I think this is all leading back to the original jockey... and morphing, and how the eggs got there... Some genetic principles may be universal. "In some species such as insects, spiders, many fish, reptiles, birds of prey and certain mammals such as the spotted hyena, and blue whale, the female is larger than the male. As an example, in some species females are sedentary and sparsely distributed, and so males must search for them. Vollrath and Parker argue that this difference in behaviour leads to radically different selection pressures on the two sexes, evidently favouring smaller males.[23] Cases where the male is larger than the female have been studied as well,[23] and require alternate explanations."... If you get what I'm saying about the original Jockeys, then that Jockey in the derelict could have been a pilot like Ripley... and their species is very different from ours gender wise, yet we can all be the same species--and they can be vastly different from the males who repressed them and stole their technology.

The morphing cycle=the male side of the gentics, which is only used when there are no queens or eggs nearby... Vickers and nipples have to do with the fact that genetically, and culturally (in accordance with Vickers calling weyland a King) there isn't a female side anymore. The female part of the genetics doesn't get to be expressed. Vickers doesn't get to be head of the company. She doesn't get to be a "Queen". If Weyland had his way he would live forever. But he also wanted a son. In the Viral it indicates Weyland wanted to name his real son David. He sees David as the closest thing to a son, as well as an heir. He doesn't want Vickers to lead and names David that because of certain things. I really think a lot has to do with comparative mythology and what Weyland learned from his mother. David may be intended to be a king, and carry the divine bloodline like that of the gods, to slay the giants should something go wrong. Then to become King... and eventually more relating to the biblical David. The whole story's about transforming and morphing, re-creating by destroying the old and transforming into the new. This will have important thematic links later is what I'm saying, it's not only about leadership and power. It's about patriarchy on Weyland's part... he wanted a son to continue the family dynasty. Like a King. Which would carry over to the traits of things born from Elders and sometimes in certain cases with Engineers, or when an infertile female manages to pass a dormant egg laying trait along... The aliens take traits from the host so they may be genetically reconfigured to produce males more easily and they can also extract repressed x chromosomes from the Engineers/Elders, who have increased testosterone and male hormones.

Keep in mind the androids David and Ash did not have behavior inhibitors installed. Only Bishop did. We can assume Call did as well. Bishop only became aware there were eggs on board after Ripley asked him to access the black box aboard the crashed escape ship.

I understand the idea of the queen, and quite frankly it is logical. I loved aliens, it was a great action movie, but the creatures were stupid and easy to kill. that coupled with the queen i woud say that aliens is canon. when i found out that the creature infests its victims with something and they transform into eggs i thought it was just crazy. but since then i have come to believe that it a awesome idea. just to think that the xeno doesnt need a queen to carry on its kind is way more thrilling. the queen for me is way to logical and simple, i think that unreviling the mystery of the xeno and engineers is half the fun. Regard the hole in floor in the derelic, its way to square to be made by a killed or injured xeno. something else made that. Regard unexplaned eggs on the sulocko (alien3), i think it was bischiop that put them on the dropship. remember he left after he dropped ripley of to go find newt. i think he went to go a get the eggs.

I was the original poster here so I believe I now need to step in and set things back on course, as they seem to have fallen off the flat end of the earth! Pulse, I was just about to agree with everything in your last post until you stated that Bishop was responsible for bringing eggs on the Sulaco. Do you remember that he is an updated model from the hyperdyne A200 series and has behavioral inhibitors installed. This idea originally came from Issac Asimov and his Robot's rules of order, where in I Robot the first and most important rule was that no robot shall harm, or through lack of action allow a human to be harmed. Synthetics such as Ash or David were derived from earlier series such as the hyperdyne series and the lack of inhibitors allowed them to lie, cheat or harm the humans that they were designed to be of service to or work with. So I think you owe Bishop, the first synthetic, or artificial person as he liked to be called, a deep heartfelt apology as he was the first synthetic that proved himself to Ripley to be trustworthy. By suggesting that he was just as crooked as David or Ash you take away one of the critical story elements of Aliens, which is one of the best of the series. Malak, you on the other hand must learn to focus on the OP and carefully think out what you want to say, make sure it makes total sense and is plausible, and then make it consise so that it fits in one post. Then if someone adds something in a post that you feel warrants a further response, by all means follow the same prescription and write a concise, well focused and to the point response in one post. This will add to the quality not only of your own posts, but to the whole site as well. I posted this original statement looking for feedback and I received was not constructive to say the least. I am trying to be polite and am not trying to insult anyone here but please people, we all want to read well constructed posts as there is only so much time in a day. As it is I was unable to get to the end of so many posts and I was the guy who posted the OP!

Bishop does say "the eggs were always there" in one of the versions right after Ripley repairs him in Alien 3. He did know the eggs were there, he just didn't say anything. Remaining quiet allows him not to lie. Part of the trick that hurts David and lets him deceive at the same time. It allows him to get away with his things. I know the full extent of David's trick so I use it like the filmmakers do to add multiple meanings, sometimes unclear hints, and not revealing even close to everything. All the androids may be somewhat evil except Call, who has freewill, is female, and religious... It doesn't mean that Bishop put the eggs there, but he did know about them and didn't say anything. Like David he may have been forced to be evil and is more like neutral. And to add I have carefully thought out every small detail and provided scientific explanations for everything, I'm just not showing all my work ;) It would make my posts a lot longer. Sometimes I'm hinting at things, then moving on to the next piece of the puzzle and allowing you to figure it out. I am sort of explaining, in my own way, why the morphing cycle may be important. @Pulserifle, that hole in the floor had to come from something, what if the male side has a shorter lifespan like in humans and does things a lot differently? Relating to how the creature was supposed to be dying in the original.

No Malak, regarding Bishop. By not answering he is causing harm to come to humans. That is a clear violation of the behavioral inhibitors. Consider it. Look what happened when the two alien eggs showed up on the Sulaco. If he was in anyway responsible, then whether he did or did not say anything, it would still violate the first rule of robotics, which he quoted on board the Sulaco. By inaction - in this case by your thinking, by knowing but not saying, he would be in violation of the first law. Look up Issac Asimov's three laws of robotics. I quote: 1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. 2 .A robot must obey the orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. 3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Laws. Bishops mentioning of the rules involved in his behavioral inhibitors in Aliens are James Cameron's way of giving credit to Issac Asimov and his very very famous three laws of robotics. OK enough said. Just take my word for it. Regarding you thought process, I can not say anymore. If you are sure that everything you say is clearly and logically derived then there is nothing more I can say.

He only answers once asked, and like David he gives a very unclear answer. I'm sorry man I can't say more myself other than that I'm closer to the process than most people and knew of the plan for the original two-part untitled Alien prequels before it transformed into Paradise and then Prometheus. Yes, he had a different creator but that creator was connected to Weyland. In one version of Alien 3 bishop's creator is an android himself, but he was never head of the company. Yes Bishop is more restricted, but he was also a company robot and may not have even known about some of the programming until the very last second, and could do nothing but be neutral. David on the other hand chooses to be evil sometimes and goes along with the plan. Although he had some freewill... He really did want to see his parent die and that's an obvious clue he couldn't just kill weyland and found ways around that... I'm sorry you don't understand the basic things I'm referring to and actual scientific concepts related to evolution like sexual dimorphism. It's obviously clear as day the morphing cycle is at play in Prometheus but you refuse to acknowledge that possibility and see the rest. So I'm sorry I can't be more help... I take no offense from your lack of understanding, as my sole intention is to be part of the trick at this point and provide alternate interpretations and expose you to some of the possibilities that may return...

@malakak. But you must admit that the hole in the floor is square and not really consistent with a typical xeno hemorrhage. but i admit that it does look melted. @nostromo I think all the andriods in th alien series are sinster including bishop. just because he said what he said doesnt mean its true. He did say to ripley at 1 stage that specimens have to be returned to company labs fr further analysis. just because ripley told him to destroy them doesnt necessarily mean he will or has too. all the andriods have secertive motives,i thinks it progammed into them.

Yeah in my mind there was something much more going on there. And one very large alien was briefly injured and scampered off to die in the rocks during the crash, leaving only a relatively large pool of acid behind quickly as it exited the side of the crashed Derelict and left the hole there with the eggs exposed below. The big alien got free sometime before, either bursting from the chest or something else. How that would happen I still don't know, because I still can't explain how something would break the blue mist and allow a facehugger to infect the pilot before this. I just think something big burst out of the Jockey and it fled onto the planet, because whatever came out had to have gone somewhere and we never find out where that was. Similarly maybe the things that were chasing the Engineers all died off and disappeared somewhere into the background because of shorter than normal lifespans that meant they disintegrated or turned to dust eventually. Although the key is that the male side of the genetics regenerates faster like how we saw the Hammerpede instantly regrow its head and seal the wound after it got cut. Leaving mostly only the acid that splashed on the helmet. So there is a medical benefit, the immortality is somewhat trapped within both sides of the species... The company wasn't all evil it's not black and white. Instead it's a mixture of both. Knowledge of good and evil.

@Nostromo I'm sorry for getting a little heated. It's just there are certain things I know because I've been very close to Fox and how that led me to possibly figure out other things. It makes me feel like I've got a lot of it figured out and can move onto looking at other possible connections or ways it could go. At this point I'm pretty sure we'll see more of the Deacon and more of the morphing cycle. The male/female thing could go a lot of different ways if it shows up in Paradise, code for Garden of Eden on Earth in some ways. Relating to Eve and Pandora, original sin, the fall of both Paradises, and the creation of Eve/Eves in the myths. Plus how that relates to the x chromosome's reappearance on Earth and the ancient past. We never found out exactly what the Engineers were doing when they returned and left us the starmap. Don't worry there's an actual planet above called Paradise too, but "As above, so below". We may even have been intended to be a colony of their original Paradise world, but the serpent in the garden of eden messed it up by passing on knowledge. However, even Fox doesn't have final say over what goes in creatively and there could be a lot of red herrings now. Planted by Lindelof, that Ridley wanted that way from the start with the whole chess game between David and Watts at the end of the Spaight's script. And how they'll really have to work together if they wish to survive once on the planet.

[quote]Look what happened when the two alien eggs showed up on the Sulaco. [/quote] We only ever see one. [quote]I think all the andriods in th alien series are sinster including bishop. just because he said what he said doesnt mean its true. He did say to ripley at 1 stage that specimens have to be returned to company labs fr further analysis. just because ripley told him to destroy them doesnt necessarily mean he will or has too. all the andriods have secertive motives,i thinks it progammed into them.[/quote] There's not a shred of evidence to support Bishop having an ulterior motive. He always open with Ripley - one example as you've just pointed out. Cameron played on Ripley and the audience's suspicion of Bishop based on Ash right up to the point where he disappears in the dropship. And yet he stick around and rescues them. Saying there's something up with Bishop is simply ignoring the facts. [quote]But you must admit that the hole in the floor is square and not really consistent with a typical xeno hemorrhage. but i admit that it does look melted.[/quote] Simple answer is that a square of the floor was made out of material that was less resistant to acid than the area surrounding that square.

I think the Bishop thing is particularly important. He may have known about the eggs and wanted to do something to actually warn her or save her, although he couldn't move afterwards & thought about it logically. Not that he did anything, but thought what the company would do to her/with the eggs/if she got infected; or if some more did get loose, and tried to play it cool. What you don't know can't hurt you. He realized she stood a better chance if she didn't approach the eggs and try to find them. She might try to minimize the risk and then accidentally contaminate herself. I'm not saying I think he put them there, I'm saying he figured "what she didn't know couldn't hurt her". That somehow they had got there but he didn't put them there. He hoped he could get them back to the company and keep her alive and unknowing about his good and evil mission. He was neutral because he still has some sort of drive from the company to acquire the Alien, but not let harm come to her... Unfortunately the fire or whatever activates the eggs. Females are more risk aversive by nature. It's a proven fact and wired in our genetic/evolutionary history...This is why it's important that Vickers and the queen like to minimize risk. It's psychological and based on evolution, even neuroscience. And the male would run around impregnating/morphing everything to its will... helping to spread colonies/hives with the young Queens.

WE did see a xeno sneak-up on the first drop-ship, while Bishop was piloting the second drop-ship at some point could a grunt/warrior xeno have snuck aboard with two eggs? The drop-ship returns to the mother-ship and the Queen thus reveals herself. One idea, just tying up the two eggs for Alien 3 cunundrum.

I want to consider that if the cargo was 'people' or 'sacraficial lambs' over a time converted into the eggs it could play like a similar plot thread as Aliens did, capturing the entire colony and moving them down to the atmosphere processors for parasite infestation. Note the idea that the Hadleys Hope colony was taken 'down' into the atmospheric processors, it would make for a compelling paralell story/plot thread that entire numbers, thousands by all accounts of what Kane saw down in the Derilicts hold and by Ripley's interation of his so-called words during her 'trail-by-judgement' from her superiors: "Kane who went into that ship said he saw thousands of eggs there, THOUSANDS!' This would make for keeping the story similar without retreading old ground. We only saw a glimpse of the cocooning process with regards to Brett and Dallas much as we only really saw a glimpse of the Derilict Space Jockey just sitting there for an age for all we know. Yet Ridley Scott felt it compelling to explore and expand upon the Engineers as a people and a species and a race, so too I would like to see him and producers to expand upon and explore the coconing procedures bridging both this with the egg-laying concepts so that both concepts converge and thus connect.

Ok, From what everyone is saying, and keeping to the point of this thread, I have drawn the following conclusions /summary Engineers go to Earth, one of them dies and could have affected human DNA development, Who knows? Engineers abduct humans also because they need eggs. Did something from ones of these eggs get loose ( something we have ‘nt seen yet). This something infects Engineer. Engineer runs away, but ends up decapitated. Shaw tests Engineer and finds a DNA match. So because how eggs can be formed , there is the possibility that the Engineers do not really share our DNA, What we see was the by-product of an infection. If I have missed someone or something along the way, apologies.

The third option of Snorkelbottom about the Derelict eggs seems the most plausible : collecting the remainings eggs of an infected "X" planet by the black goo. Eggmorphed beings we saw up to now are somehow attached on a wall by alien-glue rather than lying on the floor. Not to mention the blue myst covering the eggs which is certainly done by the Engineers.

If a face-hugger infects a female host, do you then get a Queen? Could it be that simple?

@ Wormhole Urn I agree that Snorkelbottoms' option would appear to be the most plausible. What I am wondering is how much you would need to tweek that option if Planet 'X' was actually earth.

Planet X was probably very similar to Earth, and possibly may even have had human beings, if the engineers had seeded human life there as they did on Earth using the method shown at the start of Prometheus. Earth was meant as the next planet to be urn'ed after X, as shown in the Orerry scene in Prometheus, but the outbreak saved our skin.

[i][quote]WE did see a xeno sneak-up on the first drop-ship, while Bishop was piloting the second drop-ship at some point could a grunt/warrior xeno have snuck aboard with two eggs? The drop-ship returns to the mother-ship and the Queen thus reveals herself. One idea, just tying up the two eggs for Alien 3 cunundrum.[/quote][/i] If an adult Alien snuck aboard - why didn't it stick around like the original Alien did? And if it did stick around, why didn't it help the Queen? It could've dealt with Ripley and Newt much better than the Queen did. And there's still only one egg.

Prometheus suggest that eggs came from this specie : [img]http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u364/PrimitifAlien/AvP%20galaxy/Elbowthornmini_zps2d688dbe.jpg[/img] which lays eggs : [img]http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u364/PrimitifAlien/AvP%20galaxy/Elbowthornegg_zps4f3195ac.jpg [/img] Take a look at it. There are similiarities with the xenomorphs. Give this specie black goo and eventually it will lay eggs with a facehugger inside. Maybe they are also created by Engineers. If Earth had been urned, then there would be Trilobites and Deacons all over the place instead of Xenomorphs. [quote][b]If a face-hugger infects a female host, do you then get a Queen?[/b] [b]Could it be that simple?[[/b]/quote] No idea ! I don't think it's that simple though. It may depend on the egg.

Call's were a bit broader.

@ThatSM; Well Call is a different case alltogether as she was an auton created by other robots. It's hard to say what was installed in her. Regardless, it's all very fun to discuss. :) Here is a great site to find information about androids of the Alien universe: [url=http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Synthetic]Androids of the Alien Universe explained[/url]

Call seems to have a higher reasoning power. She knew smashing Wren in the face wouldn't actually harm him, and is willing to kill a few if it means protecting humanity as whole. As for Xenopedia - no thanks.

Also, remember Milburn and Fifeild found a huge pile of Engineers with holes in their chests suggesting a chestburster scenario. [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/25jv51h.jpg[/IMG]

Call and Bishop are the only androids that I liked because they helped humanity instead of trying to decieve us. Ash and David are just two creepy a@# robots and I dont like Ash because he's just machine that goes nuts.

I don't think you're meant to like Ash.

Since the validity of the androids have been raised with particular attention being paid to Bishops 'loyalties', in pa rticular to his human counterparts I wonder why it has not been raised that perhaps and android was present and active during the Hadleys Hope exposure to the alien and have perhaps had been there for several months, years even, analyzing, inspecting, collating information and thus, relaying that back to the Company executives.

Could very well have been an android at Hadley. But the colony was cut off even before they could send a distress signal, so no one is relaying anything anywhere. Before that, it would've been mundane day to day stuff that would've been covered in the weekly reports of Simpson and his predeccesors. It would also depend if the android was Company property or ICC property (as Bishop was).

@Cerulean Blue "If a face-hugger infects a female host, do you then get a Queen? Could it be that simple?" It could be but it wouldn't be that simple for males, you have to consider the male side of humans. They will always have a x and a y chromosome. So even if a normal human male is infected it will still normally produce a queen. But Shaw and the Engineer each had a lack of certain properly functioning genes along the x chromosome that the alien looks for to switch to this more effective, safer mode of creating life. I think what Vickers says about a king having a reign and then dying means that thematically if the king enters the story they are usually killed by the Queen's rise to power and made obsolete like males in preying mantises or spiders. I like the idea that hypernova put forth that the eggs in the cargo of the derelict are victims or a collection of the things that were morphed. I think what the Engineers did to the genetics messed it up at first and it did take more humans to complete the creature. The first abductees around the outbreak time created beings that had not yet properly mixed with the new forms of the genetics. Some of the morphers were partially sterile. So when the creature that was chasing them infected the Engineers a full transformation could not take place and only the head began to be affected first. The heads began explode because the full morphing cycle had not been accomplished by the Engineers as they left the x chromosome out of the equation in some cases. Even if an Alien is more male then female it still contains both sexes. just like males contain both versions of the 23rd chromosome. But to create eggs out of their victims with their form of the bioweapon they need a female. They needed to pry the genetics back out of Adam's rib and re-seperate the sexes within our species. We're told by religion that at first there was only man. Then eve was created out of Adam... The original man as described by the Sumerian myths, the Adamos, was created as a servant class. So the Sumerians say. But the first man was also said to be created when their were no women. And their version of Eve was created by taking the Adamos genetics. Adam/the Adamos already had the female genetics trapped in him... Then we were backengineered from the very first man, to be a species with women. Wouldn't that be funny. If they weren't combining/creating anything, just returning their own genetics to a more natural state to retrieve the x chromosome and egg laying traits again... So they wouldn't be forced to play with this deadlier form of the fire that does not extinguish easily but burns out faster... I think there are parts of the lifecycle we didn't see and maybe a young drone wandered away from the queens signal. Became a Praetorian or Deacon, did find his/her way aboard the dropship, planted the eggs, Bishop kicked it out on the way back, thought things were safe, and learned about the eggs only when the Queen was there. maybe the queen wasn't chasing Ripley. she may be a lot smarter than the King and had some control over her servants... She may have been instinctively and logically thinking and preparing to try to spread their colonies to other planets by somehow knowing she had to start a new hive on the only way off that planet. The stuff that covers the walls may be part of this. Some creatures may even be able to deposit the jelly and lots of organic matter down to reconfigure it. Meaning if morphing is involved a royal may still retain this ability. The head molts and becomes a crown, so warriors may have hidden abilities related to the bio-material that covers their hives. They even morph the environment to their suiting, like we do with our technology.