What Weyland-Yutani Know About The Black Goo!

"I don't understand what the idea that the Company is run by robots is born out of?"

Not sure...But I can only imagine how many decisions David 8 helped Peter Weyland make.

Peter "What do you think David?"

David "I think that's a excellent choice and perhaps your daughter would like to join us?"

Peter "YES! it's high time she got her feet wet...The voyage will do her wonders!"

Think AI can have 24 7 focus on issues...while humans need: sleep(8 hours!), food, sex, so many messy things....NO I think AI is who I want running my trillion dollar company.

An AI with no Asimov protocols, and programmed to want you dead.  Capital notion!

This is the big risk of Weylands creation of David, and indeed Mankinds pursuit of evermore greater AI so that computers can perform tasks for us... the more higher advanced the more tasks to perform.

But their is always that Terminator, I-Robot and Matrix Plot where Machines then overthrow Mankind.... and well Prometheus has those themes as far as rebellion too, not only between us and the Engineers, but also most likely between Engineers and their creators too.

Some Religons can back this up too, and especially the Sumerian one of the Annunaki who created Mankind to toil the land as the previous lower cast Gods, the Igigi grew tired of doing this and rebelled.  The Bible and Paradise Lost hints Mankind was created because The Angels Rebelled well a 3rd of them.

And so yes we see David has shown seeds of rebellion, and its not beyond the realms of possibility that he would want to be as God or King David over Mankind and his journey to Paradise could arm him with the knowledge and tools to do just that.

So the possibility of Synthetics, or none Human Creations of Humans be that Replicants too, ruling over Mankind is something that could well apply.

It could well apply to any story that has robots - there's just no evidence of something as extreme as androids running the Company in the existing media.

Yes we dont know for sure if the Franchise has a Synthetic at the head and my point mainly about the theme of such as far as rebellion.

We could certainly see that what some proposed to have happened on Earth... Synthetic now runs the company...  It could be that Synthetics (of the Engineers Creator) as far as relation to Mankind and Purpose goes are in control of where once the Creators of the Engineers did...

So its like David and Engineers are similar? or maybe not.

But as far as in context of the company within the Franchise then yes there is no 100% Proof that None-Humans Run the Weyland-Yutani company, as far as the Movies go... we just have speculation.. i.e Micheal Bishop in Alien 3

As far as what the company knew or did not, it depends again what we put as Canon...

If we Wipe Prometheus and Alien Covenant out of Canon, they dont never happen and only go by the Alien movies.... then indeed we could maybe see there is no 100% the company knew plenty of the Organism.

But Order 937 had to have good reason to come from some place to assume a Specimen.....

But yes Aliens is odd, because indeed if the company knew about the Xeno, and wanted it then we have to ask why would they wait 20 years... how come they never set a trap for the Hadleys Hope Colony to get infected much earlier.

So yes this is one puzzle, as far as the loss of contact we again cant be sure if Burke and who ever he works for has motives prior to finding out about LV-426 off Ripley... but then he could have got the command to obtain it after what Ripley had said.

This could work if we assume the company knew the Nostromo was destroyed and chose to not venture to the system it was last going to (LV-426)for reasons of why the ship was destroyed.

But the Colonists had obtained specimens and they where studying them themselves.... It seemed when Bishop arrived his interests seemed to be to Study the Organism...  and he did spend a bit of time away from the rest of the crew.... and so while he came across as a Good Guy... he could have had a hidden motive and command like Ash did... only Bishop could pull of the trick better?

But i think no soon as Prometheus came out, and related Viral work.... and now Covenant...

And these are set prior to Alien and Aliens it would be safe to assume the Company must know something of that System Prior to the Nostromo rotating Ash on board.

I can't see even 1% proof synthetics run anything.  Michael Bishop was a human and didn't run the Company.

Burke was working alone (or nearly alone).  He wanted exclusive rights to the creature and there's nothing to suggest Bishop was anything other than on the up and up.

@S.M 

No proof, just speculation and theory by our members, and something a host of us would like to believe. What's wrong with that?

That is just one of the great things about this forum, it's populated by free thinkers, people who love to think way outside of the box, who love to share ideas and speculate about the Franchise we appreciate, that's the whole point!

Thanks to Ridley, the Alien Universe has been expanded and along with that comes infinite possibilities!

@Necrom 4 and all 

We all know how this came about artistically. The question is if you have the audacity to tell the front end of the story how do you make later actions plausible. 

For me the key to all of this is the core of all the stories. 

Creator/Creation, creator plays with/steals the fire and there are unintended consequences.

Over and over again this happens some one is smug enough to think they can break the rules and take a short cut. 

The destroyer engineers.

Peter Weyland 

Weyland - Yutani order 937 

Weyland - Yutani send colonists to explore. 

and it now turns out earlier 

Weyland -Yutani sent out a colonising mission.

There was always a secondary consideration to play with fire and throw a few creation balls up in the air and see where they land. Meanwhile the Engineers and Weyland-  Yutani keep on keeping on all the other core stuff they do. (Seeding/making a profit). Diverting the Nostromo was a curiosity getting the colonists to check out the Derelict was a curiosity. Ash and Burke elaborated their short term pay back views but all of those things were meant to happen. The cat out of the bag has already left the Engineers suffering from huge retribution its on LV223 and probably paradise.

Weyland-Yutani keep on losing shed loads of what they consider valuable every time they have these forays into A L I E N = Benefits.  

So why bother after the disaster of the Covenant, the disaster of the Nostromo and LV426 because as N 4 says the grunts making the decisions probably unaware.

What the pre equals can do is answer who is the Jockey and why did it land and set up a beacon.

Why did W Y keep on keeping on; all that intel and no one knows and each time its not a mission to secure the Zenomorph (lets just check that out) its hidden beneath something else. Sounds like a substantial deception may be the answer.    

@SM

Indeed i was not trying to suggest as fact these things, as i said its what some speculated.  There is not proof that non-humans run the company at all you are correct there is not proof that Bishop was a undercover Agent with some Ash like Order 937 Agenda.

I think if we took a more Factual Point of view on the Franchise then things can be a bit complicated even if we consider the movies alone, especially throw in the DC cuts.

We dont have no proof the Engineers/Space Jockey as far as on film are 100% the same...  We dont have no 100% that the Engineers created mankind and we dont have no 100% they created the Xenomorph.

All we have is a good set of clues that guide us to the likelihood of such things.

These things have more substance however than speculation and assumption that Synthetics Run the company.....

But from what we have seen, we could be seeing seeds that David wants to play such a big role, as far as to rule over or see himself as above Mankind...  we cant say for sure if he would attain such a role...  not at all.

To be honest the Alien Franchise is a Mess... a complete mess because its a Story that has been changed by so many in every incarnation and the prequels have made it worse, especially with how the Final Cut was.

Ideally it needs someone to look at the lose ends and try and think how can we tie it all in, but its likely they would just ignore such things.

And so yes the companies pursuit of the Xenomorph was strange but maybe after Alien R they learn its something to not be bothered with....

But there could be another Agenda, or something we are overlooking as far as the Xenomorph... than the assumption it would make a good weapon to drop Eggs on a place and let the Xeno run around and kill everyone and then die out and then collect the Eggs.

I would like to see the Organism have more use than that for the Engineers, and maybe Mankind can see past the simple use of it as a killing machine too?

Indeed the Goo, Engineers Tech, especially if they  or their Creators are the ones who created all life or most of it not only in the Galaxy but the Universe, and also if they have means to Create New Worlds

Then the big questions is indeed.... why bother with the Xeno and LV-426 and Ripley to get the Organism...

Are we to assume there is nothing related to the Xeno, or Technology/Biology that created it on LV-223/426 or Paradise and no Engineer Tech we can use via Androids to go to other Worlds these Engineers and Hierarchy have been to, to exploit what ever is related to the Xenomorph.

All these are for the Deep Thinkers... for the General Public i guess they dont matter and only Fan service does.

@BD 

I only see the first two films as cannon for me Ridley is the keeper of the flame. He never understood why someone never looked at the Jockey. its been the matter which intrigued me from the beginning.

The A L I E N is about reproduction for its own sake and the only creature comfortable with it was Ash. Those for me are the only three questions :-

1) Whose the Jockey.

2) Why was this amoral life cycle created.

3) Why are robots comfortable with it.

That W-Y is an avarice self seeking hypocritical organisation is much more straight forward. Its formation lies with an over ambitious arrogant man who thought he could make up the rules.

So for me I look at these films thematically rather than as a complete and accurate narrative.

Curiously the three matters which are of interest to me are going to be interwoven in Covenant and probably answered within two films.

The fact that a large organisation pursued a narrow short term destructive agenda and missed a much bigger long term prize is, excuse me, what happens right now. It is a point of reference.   

Where I think Covenant maybe audacious is to really lift the robotics element to the fore and connect the bio mechanical nature of Giger's original visions with the narrative that Ridders has chosen to go with which is David. Note the Covenant meet the sole survivor the "synthetic" David not David or the android David the parenthesis maybe a clue. 

Yes, Synthetics are really the dominant plot moving devices in the Alien series and I look towards Covenant to keep the streak alive!

Without David 8, their not opening tombs, waking Engineers or flying Juggernaut spacecraft...David IS the Accelerant.

Yes Michelle i also felt the emphasis was on "Synthetic" in the Synopsis..

Which means is David now more than Synthetic, or is the doppelganger (Fassbender) more than Synthetic?

I am not sure where they will go with the Jockey but as a point of reference Ridleys reason was to do Prometheus because no one ever answered that Question.

Prior to then Ridley said in that past he felt the Space Jockey had performed a Heroic Deed, that he always felt LV-426 was Paradise.

So it would be interesting to see what Ridleys take is now... but before Prometheus and after Alien 3 and after Prometheus he did think the Space Jockey was on his way to a undisclosed place but never got far and fell victim to his Cargo some thousands of years ago.

@BigDave - "But there could be another Agenda, or something we are overlooking"  

We might be overlooking HUGE pieces of the puzzle, such as the Green Goo that David finds "interesting."  

The Green Goo could be of equal importance to the Company.  We have access to some of the data that the company has on the Black Goo, but our current security clearance levels don't afford us access to knowledge about just how valuable the Green Goo is.

I'm forced to approximate the Green Goo's true value based on my current clearance level, and what the company isn't telling us about it.  The fact that they never really talk about it means that it's valuable.

I think these things that are not mentioned due to clearance level are things that the next few movies will cover.

@CarynParnall

Yes! Green goo has been overlooked, good catch!

Chances are the entire crew of Prometheus were infected to a certain degree, taking their helmets off and breathing tomb air probably gave them some hideous virus! 

I didn't see much quarantine directives? Think I would've set up a biohazard tent and destroyed all spacesuits after each tomb visit....David should've known better!! LOL!

The entire Prometheus crew were probably walking dead and the Prometheus a plague ship.

I'm all for theorising and speculation, but personally I find speculation more engaging when it has some basis in the source material.  For the example of synthetics running the Company I don't see any basis to speculate.  There's no starting point.

@ MonsterZero - I'm not sure how androids are dominant plot moving devices?  Ash helped let the Alien on the ship, but didn't need to do anything else.  Bishop did as he was told. He was only in Alien3 for expositional purposes and Call had the best intentions, but ultimately only created a countdown.

@SM 

This is the first time since I have joined the site where rather than having a different take on things I actually disagree with a point off view.

Peter Weyland 

"David is the closest thing I have to a son"

Thats enough for me, that gets the ball rolling, and puts in our minds that the founder of the company sees David as  the inheritor of his values. Added to which he clearly put David in front of Vickers (who is not a f…… robot cf Janek) who would have been involved in a power struggle for the dominant role if things had gone differently indeed they already were.

Ash drives the first two acts of A L I E N, with out him the plot falls apart. He sets up the company view a big long term theme and sets the synthetic scene. He then hands the baton over to Ripley and its then down to her and chum-ling. David is the narrator/instigator of the narrative in Prom take his input out and the plot falls apart. Indeed David with some support explains to the audience everything that is in front of us either through dialogue or visually. Janek and Holloway have their moments but D is right up there. 

I would need to get back to you on Bishop its been a while. 

Not looking for head to heads here but I just thing "Your so wrong" ha ha to coin a phrase.

David is the probably the most interesting of the lot - but they're all still doing what they're told.  Ash is following an order.  He only really has an effect on things when he actually defies Ripley's order not to open the airlock.  Dallas was going to land on LV-426 whether Ash stepped in or not.  Kane starts to recite contractual details before Parker and Ash start arguing.  He didn't need to do anything else to allow the Alien to remain alive.  The fact the script worked fine before Giler and Hill added Ash shows it wouldn't fall apart without him. (It just happens to work better with him in it).

Bishop does what he's told all the way through - he just seems suspect because the audience views him through Ripley's distorted vision.  Call seems to be the only who has actually rebelled against anything - but she's still a slave to her programming by her own admission.  All the robots in the Alien films are slaves to the humans telling them what to do.

Covenant will be interesting if for nothing else in that David is effectively free to make his own decisions, and it'll be interesting to see how he's evolved by pursuing what he wants - despite 'want' being a concept he's not familiar with.  Weyland didn't want him to inherit anything.  Weyland wanted to live longer, and looked down on David for lacking a soul, viewing him as sub-human, while simultaneously envying his immortality.

@MonsterZero - I have a whole theory worked out about what the Green goo is, where it comes from, and how it interacts with the Accelerant; however, I'm not really sure what they're planning to do with it yet.  I'll have to save my theory on the Green stuff for a separate thread.  My only fear is that it's a piece of the puzzle that might be dropped as one of the "loose ends" that BigDave was talking about.  A lot of changes have happened since the initial plans for the sequel.  It wouldn't surprise me if that particular loose end is never tied up.  At the same time, it could become key.

Hopefully both types of Goo remain part of the larger story that Ridley is presenting.  Because at a certain point, the filmmakers kind of committed to some of those ideas.  The Green and Black Goo/Accelerant would be just as important, since black allows for evolution to be accelerated.  The Engineers are a match for all the life that evolved on Earth, because our evolutionary history recapitulated a version of the Engineers' own evolutionary history after the genetics were dumped into the ocean.  The Accelerant can speed up the evolution of the entire biosphere by affecting all branches of the evolving evolutionary tree.  However, the Accelerant can also be used to increase the spread of the Fire.

The Engineer DNA was essentially hybridized with the early lifeforms in Earth's ocean.  In the early ideas, it's only one early hominid line that's affected.  The Sacrificial Goo speeds up evolution for ALL Life on Earth, which results in many evolutionary lines being accelerated.  When you think about it, the whole evolutionary tree being planted/seeded (instead of only the one hominid line affected) is a slightly scarier idea...

Hybrid theories of evolution would factor into it to make things more realistic.  I think that we'll be presented with more of the science behind it in the sequel.  As opposed to simply taking leaps of faith and suspending our disbelief, we'll be introduced to a new sense of realism where a few things are explained scientifically by David or a new scientist character.  The company thought Millburn's knowledge of phylogenetics would come in handy, but he wasn't really that valuable.  Some blame Miss Vickers for the failure of the Prometheus project since most of the crew members were selected by her.  If it wasn't for Vickers' poor choice of crew members, and David getting inside their heads to determine how they think, then the mission might have been a success.  

@S.M. - According to the corporate time line in the WY files, a group of synthetics from the Alethea collective gain Civil Rights in the year 2306.  I think the androids eventually gain the right to act as the superiors.  The company is in need of better leadership anyway.

By the time of Alien: Resurrection, there are what's referred to as "autons":  second generation androids, or "androids created by other androids."  The second generation is created in the year 2376 (mentioned on the WY company time line).  It's true that there's nothing to directly suggest that the androids takeover the company; although, there's a violent uprising on Luna in 2379 in which the second generation free androids are recalled and ordered destroyed.  All of the second generation androids except Call's group of free androids were destroyed following the uprising...  Call survives the recall before managing to board the Auriga in 2381...

Great thread

@CP The notion of the benign catalyser is enormous and it hints at the extra ordinary responsibility that comes with it. I hope that Covenant will answer in a scientific way the black goo strand. I am very taken with BD's comparison with the teleporter and that an accident occurred during an experiment. It certainly makes sense of the cat out of the bag state of LV223.

On the green goo and the green stone in the trailer I would love to hear your thoughts.

@SM Sir Peter and David are playing out the core theme of Creator Creation “Doesn't everyone want their parents dead?". Sir Peter thinks they are in a co dependent relationship. As I am sure you know Sir Ridley was channelling the movie "The Servant" in their relationship and as with that relationship the audience recognises before the protagonist that the roles have been reversed. 

I will be looking at the other two movies much more closely and will come back on the others but my sense is your talking about the "racism" against the robots which is quite separate from the very real power they exerted. This to me comes back to that central point of Creator/Creations. David was way ahead of everyone. The most tantalising part of his arc is the misjudgement he made with the Engineer and the risk he took for his "parent". To be fair why would he know that this ancient being would react in such away. My hope is the narrative surge in Covenant builds on that experience and we see a much more "aware" David when faced with similar challenges on Paradise. That may play into the big themes and how he has come to be there on the Covenants arrival.    

@Michelle

I think that the whole idea of the androids wanting freedom for purposes of equality could be very interesting and a little different than the hostile takeover that David might try to pull off in the past.

We've seen variations of the idea played out before, but some of the androids would just want the same freedoms that humans enjoy.  Not all androids want to "destroy all humans."  That becomes a stereotype by the year 2400.  Since the machines are eventually granted the rights of people, there's nothing really stopping a bunch of them from taking on leadership positions (as long as they earn their promotions).

The Covenant artwork seems to emphasize the color green like some of the early Prometheus images.  Last minute decisions were made during Prometheus to switch that Green crystal out for the sacrificial bowl.  

We don't really need to worry about how the green stuff may or may not be connected to the green crystal yet, or about the mysterious green light emanating from the Engineer head in the early artwork.  This might have led down certain avenues towards too much questioning about the nature of the goo itself.  We were basically supposed to learn more about the Black Goo and focus on what it does without questioning the origins much. 

Ironically, the crew members might be better off with the machines in control of the Company.  Some of the androids are incredibly efficient at their jobs. Who's to say that "evil androids" are the ones who take charge. We can't judge an android solely by the actions of the other androids.  These newer ones are way safer.  David doesn't conform to Asimov's laws (or any laws/rules).  

Most would probably say that Call (Winona Ryder) is a "good" android. But maybe Call is actually from an  android faction that the mostly benevolent android faction has issues with sometimes.  The second generation androids could end up turning against their creators, and then it all kind of balances out.  Humans would remain oblivious to the ongoing wars between android factions, which decide if humans are to be destroyed.  The android wars happen behind the human's backs, then Call's faction comes out on top; she ends up taking the company back after FATHER's experiment aboard the Auriga.  FATHER isn't quite as benevolent as the other forms of artificial intelligence.

@CarynParnall - The Company got the Alethea Collective ruling over-turned in the early 2400s.

Double post.

@SM

Good points...

"There's no starting point."

In the old Franchise i can agree with this, all Androids seemed to be acting out the orders of another party and their is not evidence to suggest this is not ran by Humans.   Micheal Bishop from Alien 3 made people wonder is he a Synthetic too?

Michael Bishop was portrayed as simply a high end employee of the company and not the owner however as he was not a Weyland, but it never stoped some speculating and some of this came after we saw Charles Bishop Weyland and so its a case of how can we have a doppelganger some 175+ years latter. Well we cant count AVP as Canon.

So there is nothing to prove or disprove the M Bishop as a Synthetic on film, but its doubtful he was a Synthetic and back ground information confirms he was indeed Human.

"David is the probably the most interesting of the lot - but they're all still doing what they're told."

To a degree yes, but it seems David had more freewill, Weyland may have given David more freewill than the other Androids and saw this David as his closest thing to a Son......  this could have potentially been costly to Weyland just as God allowing Lucifer to have more freewill.

David did follow orders, but then his comment "does everyone not want their parents dead" and then how i think David knew prior that the Engineers could maybe not grant Weyland his wish.... Weyland thinks they are Gods, and sees himself as a creator and thus God and Gods should never die.... But David knows the Engineers are "Mortal after all"

And so its likely David knew Weyland would not get what he wanted and that by going down their he would as Vickers said... Die.. 

Which is what David may have wanted and as he said to Shaw about when Weyland is not around to program him anymore.... that he would be Free!

"All the robots in the Alien films are slaves to the humans telling them what to do"

This ties to the previous answer, and i think this is the case, but with David i think we are seeing Seeds that he wishes to not only be Free from control of Mankind, but he wishes to play as God himself.

"In the early ideas, it's only one early hominid line that's affected"

Yes this was to show Engineer DNA+Primate = Humans, but there was potential holes in this idea, because we have to ask or assume the Scarabs only infected Primates... then ask why... or is only Primate DNA close enough to be evolved to man?   and we have to ask how we dont see any other Hybrids, like half Cow Half Engineer and then due to Cows being different to Primates we cant assume we would end up with Minotaur looking beasts with Engineer DNA+Cow

And so Lindeloffs idea to change it was a good one..

As for the FLY TELEPORTER this is not something i came up with its just a comment the source made as far as how the Teleporter had a benign purpose and that was to transport a person from one location to another where the devise disassembles their Genetic Material and then Re-assemble it

We see the Goo doing similar to the Engineers DNA.

And so then when they said about how its like a Accident could happen to create undesired consequences....  which in the FLY was a Fly geting into the Transporter that ended up breaking down Fly and Human DNA and then combine them at the other end.

This is what we see the Black Goo doed, if we imagine the Technology that holds all the pieces of Genetic Material between Teleportation  in Fly, and compared it to the mixed Substances contained within the Urns.

The same undesired effects could apply to Spaights draft, and its one questions we have about how come we never saw such undesired effects as far as the Scarabs infecting Primates... and ask what if one of those infected a Giant Snake, or a Spider... would we get a Hybrid Beast that could prove deadly?

So when i think about the Fly Analogy i think maybe they was trying to hint that maybe the Xenomorph was a result of a Accident... but then after its creation it was something they maybe harnessed.?

I would assume they mentioned it in connection to the Prometheus sequel and not Prometheus as far as the Xeno, but maybe its in general with the Goo, in that it has Benin uses but contamination can lead to a undesired and deadly creation.

As far as the Alethea Collective, i think this applies to the whole theme for Prometheus and maybe its sequels..

about a Creator who creates a creation and the creation is given knowledge and more knowledge and freewill they start to see themselves as being equal to their creators or wanted to be treated or have as equel... or even Greater.

The whole creation, creator and rebellion aspect, these things fit into The Matrix, and Bladerunner themes... which the source claimed the Plot for Prometheus 2 was closer to, but not literally... and the same applies to Paradise Lost and Greek Mythos but again not in a too literal sense.

David's comments about children wanting their parents dead is born out of his interactions with Vickers and her ambitions. David isn't programmed to "want" anything.