Alien and the religious angle

Glad to see things are getting back on track here. Religious themes do not imply preaching. It seemed very clear Prometheus was not intended to preach, but to explore a very complex series of "what if" questions.

As MJ delineated, the movie was loaded to the gills with a sub dialogue about various aspects of the human condition and cultural influence. It seems Ridley is interested moving the viewer to imagine these human characteristics in various contexts. More than a story about mysterious monsters, he's asking the audience to consider these philosophical questions within and without the human context. You see this being slowly established with the history of the engineers and you see it being established with an android who is very likely moving beyond it's programming, an experience for which parallels can be drawn to experiences humans identify as spiritual or transcendental.

Moreover, we have the human journey towards technological evolution juxtaposed against the result of the engineers likely having followed a similar path. Then there are these two concepts held in comparison to raw, accelerated, biological evolution.

This philosophic dialogue is taking place on the small scale of individuals such as Shaw and David but it is also taking place on the large scale in terms of the evolution of civilizations and of entire species. Then we have the wild card. A discussion on mortal beings wielding the power of creation. Something traditionally thought of as the domain of immortals.

It is this complexity that makes it all more about exploring concepts rather than preaching an agenda.

taking into account these movies were not intended to be 'alien' themed movies but a greater question altogether that had alien tones on a path that joins in with alien and the whole point of the movies is to ask the questions RS is confused as to why no one else addressed them in the other films, the religious angle is the best way to do the movies. I for one find it an intriguing theory which im guessing ridley truly believes to be a possibility. hes taking us on the journey of the SJ from before the derelict was discovered and tying humanity into it all. I like the way hes going and though not a religious person, the question of who made us is something we have all pondered at some stage. I cant wait for AC but I truly hope we go back to the Prometheus themed style for its sequel

@SM because :-

Prometheus 

a) There was no chatter when they opened the com. systems. Nothings happening in the desert, nice link with Wadi Rum.

b) At the point that he escorted the Weyland party to the Juggernaut he had already filled out the broad strokes and knew that waking a pilot hell bent on destroying mankind is not going to produce a favourable response. "There is nothing".. for me here. "I know" ... wow how passive aggressive was that.

Covenant

Will reveal David was not surprised by what they found. This will be part of the lifting up of Prometheus and dragging it along with the Covenant narrative. In other words elements of what was said and done and witnessed in Prometheus will take on their true meaning and in some cases different ones to what may have been extrapolated by the original screen writers. Source Wayne Haag interview.   

@Chilli

I take the quote from L of A quite literally. They had come to an arid deserted place and there is nothing here for them. The folding line is when Sir Peter says "there is nothing" and David said "I know" see my above remarks.

How much is David channelling Lawrence ? As I have said earlier Ridley borrows bits rather than copies wholesale or allegorises and that then leaves the recipient to decide how much channelling is going on. "The trick William Potter is not minding it hurts". That line would have fascinated David because Lawrence is offering, identifying with Davids place in things for him it does not hurt. So Lawrence would be a kindred spirit.

Lawrence of course was defiled, lowered by the Turkish General at Dera. The consequence of which lead to Lawrence's moral downfall in the aftermath of Tafas where we see him in the extended cut lead the slaughter of the retreating Turkish Army in revenge. One wonders what Davids thoughts about that arc of events once he has been restored. He clearly has developing emotional responses would he seek revenge and slaughter on the Engineers for his lowering and humiliation?  

Whether the out manoeuvring in the end of Lawrence by Allenby will play into the Covenant narrative is unclear. I suspect the core story is about Walter's attempt to bring David into line and his reaction. Will the Covenant hierarchy fall for the smug assumptions of later W-Y employees or will they literally decide to get the .... out of here. This is where it becomes interesting what are there motives and how do they relate to David and the consequences of the Bio Weapon.

I will add to this tomorrow as busy now...

But i will add that yes the Franchise has a lot of Religious and Sacrificial Elements, and Prometheus seemed to be teasing these a bit more, now we actually have a Gods into the Franchise who are merely advanced Ancient Culture who mankind was created in part by and we interpreted all out believes off our encounters with them.

Indeed seemed Ridley Scott was going to expand upon this but we cant read into it as being too literal.

Right now with the Alien Covenant.. John Logan Re-write who knows how much this has been toned down... but i would like to think the Covenant name will imply a few multiple connections to Biblical and Paradise Lost accounts but only loosely...

So its not a literal direct connection... so just like Prometheus teased but did not go the route of Space Jesus or a Magical being created the World and then Mankind in 7 days.

But a agreement of some kind that involved the Engineers either in context to David or some Covenant they made with Mankind, or other Faction or their own Creators at some point in history i think for  sure has to be at play.

When i posted this one,i had no idea it would become a rather passioned debate.Thank you guys.I'm glad it got past all the ugliness.

i will quickly touch upon Michelles "There is Nothing" quote.

I dont think David knew that there was nothing, as far as nothing the Engineers Could do, i know he knows they are Mortal After All... i think he may indeed think there is little as far as Weylands Wishes, maybe Weyland thinking these Gods would be more Godlike than he found.

But David i dont think can be too sure they are advanced enough to indeed sustain and extend Weylands Life,  they are so Advanced that their Medical Knowledge could be so far advanced that maybe they could help him?  Or maybe not, i dont think David has enough information to know how much they can help.  They could naturally live a long time, and be unable to extend Weylands Life...

I dont think David would know enough about this.

But i do agree with you, that there is Nothing...

As far as Regardless of if these Engineers could or could not and possess or do not any means to extend Weylands Life.

David knows that the Engineer will most likely not grant Weyland this, i feel David kind of knew the Engineers wanted all Mankind dead and so he would have guessed the likely outcome would be there would be nothing the Engineer would be willing to offer.

But as with a lot of Prometheus its ambiguous to the point we can find other explanations..

Did David mean to Weyland that there is Nothing.. as far as Life after Death?  that these Engineers are not Gods that Mankind based its whole Religions on and Paradise and the Soul, which Weyland Claimed David can never have one.

Well did David after what he saw and gathered and after the Engineers are Mortal after All, did David then realize... "you know what looks like there is no Soul after all"

So for Weyland there is now nothing....

And David then rubs it in, by wishing him a Safe/Happy Journey

Sorry Michelle if the 2nd interpretation was what you was referring to and not the 1st.

This Topic is going to be one busy debate and i will add more to my two cents tomorrow ;)

BigDave - That's a very interesting thing what you say about this 'not enough' interpretation: David has no enough information, he does not know enough, etc.

The second part of the sentence in question 'There is nothing in the desert, and no man needs nothing.' has an official translation (not important what language, etc) in the movie Prometheus with the words (back to English): '...and it is not enough for anyone.'

Michelle: I guess you are right about interpreting the quote literally. “There is nothing in the desert” (it’s dry and empty) and there is nothing on LV-223 for Sir Peter Weyland (or anyone else). There might even be nothing in general for mankind? No God in an empty and indifferent universe without any meaning? But how are we to interpret “No man needs nothing” (No one needs anything), resignation perhaps? David seems to have a need for love (recognition) and Shaw has a need to find answers?

As you say, Michelle, David has no emotions/feelings so he can identify with Lawrence about “not minding that it hurts” (There is a big difference of course between not minding and not feeling at all). But still, it might perhaps be possible within AI to develop emotions? In Kubricks 2001, the ship’s computer (HAL 9000) gets jealous and wants revenge, just like David? Is it David’s battle with Goliath (mankind/engineers), like Lawrence’s battle against the turks?

Did David know that there was “nothing” and about what was going to happen (to Peter and the rest of them) or is he just like a curious, lonely boy (Aurora’s song) who likes to learn but have no emotions (yet) so no “real” understanding (He can understand things but not feel them) of hurting others? After seeing the head explode (and seeing dead engineers) David points out that they are “mortal after all” so he understands that Peter won’t get what he wants from them (eternal life)? But he’s still curious or he might not have enough information as to whether they could extend Peter’s life (as you say BD) or not?

I think indeed maybe the “There is nothing in the desert”  quote could be in the movie to hint that there is nothing, and maybe this is the aim of that quote.

But it was in a odd place just as they arrive and so how can David know anything of such, it kind of conflicts the David and Weyland interaction when he was told to "Try Harder"

However..... the Viral Site claims the company knew about the Potential for that system to have life and a maybe Easter Egg on the extras... does claim that the company knew about a Signal on LV-426 and that maybe this moon has more reward at more higher risk than LV-223 and that David would be in bedded on the ship to investigate this but only he would know about it (we assume Weyland does too).

So who knows if this is Canon, and then what information David has about the Signal.... if the SOS in Alien was a Space Jockey and it was the same Language or one the Engineers use, then David would surely know at least what the Space Jockey SOS was and about the Derelict.

So this way maybe he already knows then that there is nothing for Mankind to have/find here.... as far as Shaws hopes and Weylands.

But then would this mean David from this point has his own Agenda from the start?

chli: 'In Kubricks 2001, the ship’s computer (HAL 9000) gets jealous and wants revenge, just like David?'

chli - The sequel to 2001, 2010 - The Year We Make Contact, reveals everything about HAL's behaviour and decisions. No jealousy and no revenge in the background. He just followed his (secret) programming (not revealed for the crew by the 'company') and had to face a fatal confusion.

(2010 is one of my favourites, it is slow but brilliant in my op.)

Ati: Yes, you are right about that. I love 2001 and read Arthur C Clarke's novels (2001 and 2010) a couple of years ago (really good novels). I forgot about that explanation about Hal which was given in 2010 (Was it contradictory orders that made "him" lose it?). Maybe he didn’t develop emotions but the crew became expendable to him. Sounds familiar? :)

ati, 2001 and 2010 r both masterpieces. hal was such a brilliant character and ash in alien was very similar. hidden agenda that they didn't have the experience to handle the many variants that would come into play. ash just followed his programming though as he had the crew expendable protocol. hal though didn't have that to guide him so had to come up with a solution of his own. im sure hal9000 was a big blueprint for O'Bannon as he has stated before when someone asked which writer he had 'stolen' bits from he said 'all of them' lol

ali81: Yes, 2001 had of course a huge impact on future screenwriters and directors. It's interesting that Hal became "Muthur" and we got a female protagonist in Alien. Scott was part of the radical 70s. :)

definitely. guys like Hitchcock, Kubrick, O'Bannon and scott r pioneers of the scifi era. pretty much everything since these great visionaries first came around is based on

chli - 'I forgot about that explanation about Hal which was given in 2010 (Was it contradictory orders that made "him" lose it?).'

Yes, and he tried to do his best to satisfy humanity in general. :) He was not evil at all. Added to this, as you know, he sacrifices himself for the new crew at the end of 2010. A new David parallelism? Who knows? As for me, I would predict that David won't sacrifice himself at the end of Alien:Covenant. At least not entirely, for sure. He will find the way to survive 'everything' and establish his position as a secret and independent AI unit with enough power to control the events in the following decades - including the events around 2120 leading to the consequences seen in Alien.

ali81 - I totally agree with you. I'm planning to read the whole Odyssey series by Clarke. Probably you know that Clarke wrote two sequels as well: 2061. Odyssey Three and 3001 - The Final Odyssey.

As for HAL, I like the fact that his name was derived from 'IBM'.

ati, I was totally unaware of the sequels to 2010. r they available to read?

scratch that, googled them and found them, purchased, cant wait to read them. have u read any of the novels? if u have do they differ from the movies? but don't give too much away please lol

They are :)

https://www.amazon.com/2061-Odyssey-Arthur-C-Clarke/dp/0345358791

@BD and Chli

What Prince Faisal was narrating was that the desert holds nothing for man the answers do not lie there and he was ultimately right about it in terms of Lawrence and his ultimate journey.

David offers this observation when there is no chatter from LV 223. He is expecting and deducing correctly they are not going to find an answer that is alive and thriving.

What he does find is an Engineer who is in cryo sleep. However by the time the decision is taken to wake him him to establish if he can help Weyland.

1) He knows about the affect of the Black Goo on Engineers and mankind.

2) He knows that the failed mission he has discovered, once he was able to turn the Engineers holographic navigation systems on, was to take a payload of canisters to Earth to destroy mankind first in order to create you need to destroy. 

Now how anyone can think that isn't sufficient evidence to question whether the Engineer when woken may not be good news for Sir Peter Weyland would be surely to quote Ripley on the matter of I Q's.

@BD and specifically I am not saying whether the Engineers had the technology or had stolen the technology to render Sir Peter's dream true, though all the evidence of this disastrous race is they failed period, but that they would have absolutely no intention of supporting Sir Peter's dream and thats why in his death throws Sir Peter said there is nothing and David said I know, having already deduced this, and safe travels acknowledging the existential nature of death.

Sir Peter was the apex of the hubris of the movie and his daughter told him the truth whereas his creation went along with in an entirely passive aggressive way.

David said "I know" because he did know given all he had instigated and investigated, its not complicated.

As to whether David knew even more than the script writers of Prometheus allowed for, I think when we look at Prometheus in the rear view mirror of Covenant several elements will be informed and evolved by Covenant and they will all be elements which are shared by both elements of the story namely.

1) The Engineers and possibly the acolyte (a scene from that act is shown in a still of the trailer) . 

2) The Black Goo.

3) David and Peter Weyland. Shaw will be consequence and what we saw in Prometheus is what we got. 

The only Alien movie except for Prometheus that dealt a lot with religion was Alien 3 and there they managed to get it right because they were not fanatics or dumb about it. Some of the prisoners even questioned the religious thing.

Shaw just came off as stupid about her religious beliefs. Not even after all she went through does she question her beliefs (which is another issue that I have about the character). Believing in God and mix it with religion doesn’t always need to be a contradiction, it depends how you do it but they didn’t get it right with Shaw.

I don’t see where it fits with Alien but I agree that there isn’t any in Aliens. As far as the religious thing in covenant I hope that they focus on other things but to put some questions about religion and our roots is alright if it is done in an interesting way. They got to get it better this time around.

Hopefully Alien Covenant won’t be as much about religion as Prometheus was. I agree with Stan Winston about this.

Michelle: You have a point about David having plenty of information. But could he foresee how the engineer would react when awoken after about 2000 years in cryosleep - and the sole survivor of the engineers on LV-223 (perhaps the only one still alive at all)? Would he still stubbornly carry on with the plan of destroying mankind or would he reconsider? One thing David obviously didn’t foresee was that he would get his head torn off. :)

@Chli. My way of looking at this is that David was driven principally by curiosity. He had nothing to fear for himself. "The trick is Mr Potter for me its does not hurt". The second driver was  his passive aggressive role as servant to Sir Peter Weyland. He had none of the thinking that drove Janek/Meredith or Janek/ Shaw. They were curious as to the effect of the wakeup but there were a series of other sophisticated emotionally responses to what had happened informing them. Its clear to me the audience did not have that communicated as effectively to them as it should have been otherwise they would have seen that scene as the single most tension filled moment of these sequence of films. 6 billion souls future hung on that wake up and what happened, and the threat the Engineer posed should have been seen to be far greater than the sub created bio weapon of the nostromo. Sir Peter this pathetic wizened old man was in that moment the most dangerous member of his species and in terms of the overall arching story his gift to the story is to bequeath that theme of unbridled self absorption and self interested acquisitiveness to the future which without Ripley would have given the mutagenised outcome a second chance.

The other gift that emerges out of this story telling is the question of how David "feels" about having his head ripped of by the Engineers and how that informs his future decisions.  

As humans when making decisions we prioritise our needs and then make a judgement of how to act. Often risk management is consciously or subconsciously influencing those judgements. David at that point did not appear to have the latter algorithm it was literally unbridled curiosity pursued for Sir Peter's mad  delusional ambitions.

ali81 - I have the books but I won't ruin your future reading experience. :) I think the visual characteristics of the movie 2010 are brilliant. Read and watch simultaneously, that would be an exciting reading-spree.

Hungarian edition of 2061 - the cover was painted by Gábor Szikszai and Zoltán Boros:

Other (Alien/Predator) paintings by them:

The Ark of the Covenant background in the mission patch as well, is a very powerful religious symbol.

ninXeno - I like their paintings very much, I'm into their robots and spaceships.

ninXeno - ...and I totally agree with you, I believe Alien: Covenant won't deliver many religious patterns, and the ones included will be easy to discover and read.

Michelle: I agree that it is a very important moment and it could have been made into a Hollywood climax scene in the likeness of Armageddon but I suppose that is one of Scott’s characteristics that he wants to tone down and leave things more ambiguous and in the eye of the beholder (e.g. not showing too much of the alien)?

It might also be the case that Lindelof didn’t make the best of what was possible (as compared to Spaihts) when it comes to creating suspense? On the other hand, Prometheus has with its ambiguity, and maybe even flaws, perhaps made it one of the most discussed movies in the Alien franchise? It is really interesting in very many ways (e.g. picking Zeta Reticuli as the setting which was in the center of the UFO discussion in the 60s, etc.)?

Was David really passive-aggressive by the way? Wasn’t he very active in bringing things about and not a “person” sitting sulking in a corner and obstructing things? He sets things in motion but in a delicate way? I agree with you that he could be looked upon as a curious boy, like a very intelligent child without experience.

I don’t necessarily see Sir Peter as a “pathetic wizened old man”. You simply can’t be all of these things at the same time. Or can you? Peter might be seen as an egoistic person seeking knowledge, power, money, eternal life (only to himself?). But isn’t this a bit of a cliché of the capitalist being the bad guy (We have Schindler’s List e.g.)? But was he the most “dangerous member of his species”? Was Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot really better (perhaps seen as caricatures in a movie)? Would they have given a reason for the engineers not to wipe out mankind?

@Chi His performance was based on the servant played by one of the Fox brothers and like all servants they get their way by subterfuge rather than head on confrontation. For me he was definitely passive aggressive in his relationship with Weyland and indeed others. A direct honest person would have told Charlie what was in the drink and ask him if he wants to take the risk but no he asks the open question and then spikes his drink. That is classic passive aggressive behaviour. The aggression is cloaked in an unctuous agreeable light demeanour put simply veiled hostility .   

As for Weyland where was the thought through analysis of what had happened to date. The Engineers had suffered a holocaust, Elizabeth had birthed a dreadful mutation and all he could do was shamble down to the Juggernaut seeking eternal life amongst the carnage. Right at the moment for me he was a pathetic old man whom David wanted dead, channelling grown up children who want there parents inheritance! That entire sequence when looked at from a risk management point of view was highly dangerous and frankly stupid, no for me he was pathetic.

I think the preponderance of creation myths and the human urge to tell stories, make and watch films, e.g., says something about us as a species...religious angle or no.

NIN, it's just for you, it's an image from a flashback scene from Alien: Covenant. It shows the time thousands years ago when people, engineers, and aliens lived in peace and harmony on LV-629.

Just kiddin', the images show a painting by Boros-Szikszai.

But Jonesy and BigChap are doing something in the bottom right hand corner. :)

They are planning to rule the world, kill the creators, and this kind of things... :D :D

Michelle: Yes, I suppose Peter could be looked upon as being pathetic. On the other hand, seeking a way of cheating death was his purpose with Prometheus from the beginning. About the risk of waking up the engineer, what did he have to lose? His days were numbered anyway? Did Peter know about the intended holocaust of humanity, the mutagen and Shaw’s birth, by the way? Also, Shaw is still curious about what the engineer has to say. She also wants to speak with him in the hopes of getting her answers. She still wants this (even though she knows more than Peter). Janek is perhaps the most realistic person of them all? He understands what the facility on LV-223 was all about (and why the engineers wouldn’t do these kind of experiments on their own home world). Probably this epidemic somehow spread to their own home world long ago or David and Shaw brings it there? In May we will probably find this out? :)

You might be right about the passive-aggressiveness by the way . . .