Versions Of Humanity

As far as Alien 5 goes... i think a number of its ideas will indeed be carried over for a sequel to Aliens.. that may be considered a alternative line of events after said movie..

But its unlikely this would see any day of light before Ridley completes at least 2 more Alien Sequels.

So i am not sure we will see Ripley in the Alien 5 it depends really how long it is before we get it, Age is Against Miss Weaver but Age is just as much Against Ridley Scott and Micheal Fassbender (as do Androids Age?)

So Ridley will want to cover his prequels that will have David/Walter, and Shaw/Daniels in them before even considering a Alien 5 movie.

Which means a Alien 5 may have to be about a older Ripley, maybe as Cameo with some CGI.... but mainly be about the passing of the Torch to Newt... if they indeed wish to go similar Route to Alien 5 plans.

I cant see a Aliens alternative sequel (Alien 5) being worked on any time in the next 5 years.

Nice Topic. :) I've also been thinking about this for quite a while.

But how many sentient species in the alienverse do we know of, given that the Alien movies, A:OotS, A/P/P:FaS is considered canon?

"Gods":

Extremely advanced entities. Obviously able to manipulate things on planetary level. Maybe even on a star system level. Apparently also able to create life/races as they see fit. Seemingly their creations are meant to compete with each other.

Engineers:

Advanced species. Existence hinted through ancient human cultures. Physical evidence found on "Paradise", LV-426 and LV-223. Advanced race created by the Gods. Able to seed life on planets. Extinct and believed to have been in the state of war when their demise occurred.

Humans:

Creators unclear (for me at least). Probably the gods. Share over 90 % of their DNA with the Engineers. Engineers planned humanitys eradication with bio-weapons but were stopped, for unknown reasons.

Spacejockey:

Advanced species, Physical evidence found on LV-426. Said to be Engineers despite the obvious body size difference. Rumored to be a sister race to the Engineers. 

Yautja (Predator, A/P/P:FaS):

Advanced species. Physical evidence found on several occasions. Unknown origin. Creation of the Yautja by the Gods can't be excluded. Rumored cultural ties to the Xenomorph (Hunting).

Dog-Aliens (A:OotS):

Advanced species, Physical evidence found on LV-178. Origins unknown. Possibly extinct. Proof strongly suggests a fight between the Dog-Aliens and the Xenomorphs.

Beaked Alien (leaked picture):

Next to no information about this species. Some  speculate that the "Beaks" are the Dog-Aliens or vice versa.

I think that @Grinning & Dropping Linen nailed it. I hope it plays out exactly as stated in his comment. I couldn't have said it better. Bravo I say to you my friend! 

@BMacReady

Thank you very much, fingers crossed this film universe goes in a great direction and May 19th is just the first step 

I agree, Alien and Predator work on their own. Their themes and settings are different.

Nonetheless I like the idea of AvP (even if it seems to be  kind of a heresy here ;) ). But I don't like the AvP-movies, they're a mess of wasted potential.

In the AvP-Movies the Yautja are depicted as almost unbeatable. Wich they aren't when you consider P1 and P2. In both cases a single human defeated a Predator. Predators are tough and strong for sure but not supernatural. All it needs clever writing.

If A:C should go the way with multiverses or worse with time-travel it'd be dead for me. I like neither. For me, especially time-travel, is just a cheap and lazy way to fill holes or cover a lack of ideas. 

IRaptus

"Hi Blackwinter Witch, sorry if my post came across argumentative, it wasn't my intention. I have great faith in Ridley Scott keeping the ship on path, he'll find a way to tie everything together nicely.

An alt-timeline could solve the Alien 3&4 -->> Alien 5 divergence for all us people that need closure, myself included lol.

I do like the idea of different versions of humanity throughout the universe, some good, some bad? Do you think Synthetics could be another type? Someone suggested that WY could be governed by synths, maybe they are pushing some type of synthetic AI agenda? 

Yeah you are correct about Alien 3 having too many cooks. damn shame too, you can see the potential in that film it just never hit the mark. But for what it is I still enjoy it, it gave us the Runner Alien, which is an awesome little beast.

If they are to do an Alien 5 sequel I'm interested to see what Blomkamp can do. His films tend to have that bleak futuristic dystopian feel to them which suits Alien. It'll be polished, glitzy and over-produced but he has a good vision for his films and hes not afraid to be bold."

I appreciate the apology, but it's not needed as I did not find your reply argumentative in the least. I quite enjoyed it!! I quoted' you so as to be able to better reference your points, and I apologize if my tone or phrasing came across as defensive, such was not my intent, and language gets kind of 'unclear' at times, as we all know, right? :)

I see we agree on Ridley Scott and have faith in his ability. :) I suspect Ridley Scott might just 'bypass' 3 & 4, and 'Re-align Canonicity'. That would keep things on-track, offe the closure the fan-base needs, and do away with clutter and continuity problems. I guess we'll have to wait like kids at Christmas morning to find out. :D

Synthetics and such...Man, GOOD question!! I don't think W-Y is governed by Synthetics, but the Board likely makes a lot of decisions with Synthetic input. It's just a 'gut' feeling I have, so I'm prepared to be totally wrong. I don't know if Synthetics classify as another version of Human, as they're not a species, as they have zero ability to reproduce on their own and such, and  and have very little to zero ability to Evolve on their own. BUT, depending on how you ascribe 'Human' well, they are a valid contender. However, if we are referring strictly to the versions created in the ancient past, then of course 'no'. The assorted Versions of Human, well 'Good' and 'Bad' are relative, but I suspect at least one version outside of ourselves will be aggressively hostile to the other versions. Again, just a 'gut' feeling.

ALIEN 3 was a Textbook example of 'Wasted Potential'. If there'd been support instead of kibbitzing and such, it would have been a really good, possibly great film. I DID like the Pursuit-Alien idea, it was a new, very dangerous, and interesting variation!!

Blomkamp, I LOVED District 9, and I am CURIOUS to see his work with ALIEN!! :D It's really hard to wait for all the sci-fi-horror goodness!!

BigDave

"As far as OT here is what the Source claimed as of March 2015

*We are the 4-5th Generation of our kind.

*We should not look at Evolution like Darwin has that we Evolve from Apes, but that indeed Engineer DNA is tied with out Ancestry instead.

*Mankind has been to that System before (i assume either LV-223 or where Paradise is).

*Biblical Events such as Punishments by God like the Great Flood etc are actually events that happened in context to the Plot but to not literally consider these Biblical Events had been towards our Generation.

And so when we read Ridleys Comments from a few weeks back “The Egyptians were obsessed with afterlife, so they built their whole culture around afterlife. I think it’s very interesting… are we one of many? Of course we are. We’re one of many, many variations. And that’s something now they’re saying is entirely feasible. So I like to open up that door.”

I think this kind of does tie in to what was said...

I also think they are taking us to a deeper story as far as Creation and it will defer from Aliens and Queens and Ripley, because you cant surely make 6 more movies about Xenomorphs... the beast is already Cooked... and unless they show different forms and similar created Horrors... then i cant see how more than 2 more movies would be needed before the Beast is totally Cooked.  More so than those Engineers on Paradise lol

I think there is more to the story, but they are going to tease Aliens first so as to engage those fans who switched off when it came to the Prometheus Engineers and Creation Plot."

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GOOD points!!

My theories (which I am prepared to have proven wrong) are that while our DNA is linked/tied to Engineers, they didn't create us, but they are a 'Cousin Species' to Homo Sapiens, in the same manner as Neanderthanesis was.

'Mankind' having been to the system in Covenant, could mean all the Versions of Humanity. So, various Versions have over time visited it and such, now it's Homo Sapiens's turn to drop by.

I'm guessing that the Biblical Cataclysms could have referred to events that happened on other worlds to other versions of Humanity that more advanced Versions spoke about to Homo Sapiens, akin to: "Hey little bro, be good or the big guys will slap you down hard like they did us."

I agree they are taking us into a deeper story than just dealing with Xenos, Queens and Ripley, a MUCH deeper story that will involve different generations as the galaxy is VAST and there's a LOT of history and such for Homo Sapiens to stumble into and become a part of.

Heh, 'Engineer Flambe`'...it's what's for dinner. :D Agreed, there is SO much more, and that the Xenos and such are the 'Invitation' to re-engage with the franchise.

BigDave

I agree with all your points regarding ALIEN 5. The logic you present, it's solid, and yeah, time is NOT in anyone's favor regarding casting and such, and I hope you're right about it being the 'passing of the torch' to a new generation.

Tiwaz

TY! :)

As for Sentient species and Canon...the whole Canonicity question is going to change as Ridley Scott has written a 'Rulebook' for the franchise and FOX is working on 'cleaning up' the franchise. So, man, I dunno...

You make a good point on the Space Jockey, and one I hope R. Scott addresses. I'm wondering if the Space Jockey wasn't some kind of BioSynthetic pilot, built to 'meld' into the control chair, or just built into it as a permanent 'component'...in a way (referenced merely as an example) the Hybrids were aboard the Basestars in the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica.

The 'Gods'...as yet my mind just can't get that far, as it's focussed in on the Versions of Humanity ponderings. Like you, I am very curious about them! :)

I want to say 'Thank-you' to you all for your comments and great thinking about the various points and such!

I'm a Writer, trying to become one, and between R. Scott and the convos here you all really help keep my creative engines ticking over nicely. Part of the problem with writing, is you end up staring at things 'too closely' and a little External view can break your mind loose from being 'stuck'.

You guys don't realize how much that means, how helpful it is to be able to have fun and intelligent and thought-provoking/perspective-altering discourses with you!!

I am glad you enjoy my topic and look forward to our future bandying about of various points and such while we all wait for 'Christmas Morning' on May 19th whan Santa Ridley drops by with some eggs... :D

Thanks Blackwinter Witch! All good, no worries sound like we are on the same page :)

Yes good point about the synthetics not being a species if they cannot reproduce or evolve on their own, textbook definition of what a species is right there.

Given the bleak nature of the Alien films I wonder if Ridley is preparing to portray Humanity (or at least one version of) as an equally invasive species as the xeno. Combined they take out all other sentients life in the known Alienverse with their aggressive survivalism. Would explain why no other lifeforms are mentioned (known of?) from Alien onwards. Would make for a dark story though....

Out of Shadows / Sea of sorrow both mention the remains of a lost buried dog-alien civilisation, but that's the only other life-form I can remember ever being mentioned in any canon alien releases besides the engineers?? 

District 9 was a cool film that took a very different approach to the whole alien invasion theme and how humanity dealt with it. Bold and thoughtful. 

"Thanks Blackwinter Witch! All good, no worries sound like we are on the same page :)

Yes good point about the synthetics not being a species if they cannot reproduce or evolve on their own, textbook definition of what a species is right there.

Given the bleak nature of the Alien films I wonder if Ridley is preparing to portray Humanity (or at least one version of) as an equally invasive species as the xeno. Combined they take out all other sentients life in the known Alienverse with their aggressive survivalism. Would explain why no other lifeforms are mentioned (known of?) from Alien onwards. Would make for a dark story though....

Out of Shadows / Sea of sorrow both mention the remains of a lost buried dog-alien civilisation, but that's the only other life-form I can remember ever being mentioned in any canon alien releases besides the engineers?? 

District 9 was a cool film that took a very different approach to the whole alien invasion theme and how humanity dealt with it. Bold and thoughtful."

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IRaptus

You're quite welcome and I'm glad we got the misunderstanding sorted out. :)

Ty for the comment about Synthetics, but after a chat with hubby, he pointed out ways in which machines CAN procreate...and with Micro or Nano tech, it's VERY possible to have Procreative machines, and possibly Evolution as well. BUT, as Synthetics (as far as we know) do not possess such facilities, then they cannot qualify as a species...yet. ;)

HERE's a dark and bleak thought...regarding your point...perhaps the 'Invasive' species of Humanity you posit, is US...Homo Sapiens. Heh...possibly we should refer to ourselves as 'Internecivus Sapiens Homo = Murderous Wise Man'. Consider our history and such, and maybe the rest of the Versions are in terror of lil ol` Homo Sapiens? It might explain why the Engineers sought to wipe us out, why the Engineer attacked Weyland and company then proceeded to try to carry out the Genocide-Mission. It might also explain why David builds the Xenos, maybe he feels a deeper 'kinship' on a moral/ethics/perspective level with the Engineers and sees Homo Sapiens as they do and sought to make a weapon to combat us, without destroying an entire world's biosphere in the process?

The works like 'Out Of The Shadows' and such I've never been exposed to as yet, but from references here I have looked them up, and they make some interesting points! It'll be interesting to see if R. Scott borrows from those works! :) BUT that work is at odds with the Timeline and Canon that Covenant seems to be establishing with David creating the Xenos, and that ship and the aliens were millenia old...

District 9 definitely showed that Blomkamp can handle sci-fi very well! I hope someday he and R. Scott work together on an ALIENverse movie. :)

yes, all very good points, especially Davids possibly kinship to the engineers seeing the threat humanity is to itself and other sentient humanoids! I definitely think that is direction Ridley is heading; Humans vs Xenos as the universes most destructive pest species lol. It seems the only way from Alien onwards there is no mention of Engineers, Deacon Xenos, Neomorphs etc..  

Maybe we should open this up as a new topic to discuss with everyone?!

Good point, thinking of it now Out of the shadows does pose a problem. The events of the book occurred between Alien and Aliens whilst Ripley was still drifting through space; ~40 years after the nostromo I think. The Dog-alien civilisation and the buried city on LV178 were definitely ancient. 

"yes, all very good points, especially Davids possibly kinship to the engineers seeing the threat humanity is to itself and other sentient humanoids! I definitely think that is direction Ridley is heading; Humans vs Xenos as the universes most destructive pest species lol. It seems the only way from Alien onwards there is no mention of Engineers, Deacon Xenos, Neomorphs etc..  

Maybe we should open this up as a new topic to discuss with everyone?!

Good point, thinking of it now Out of the shadows does pose a problem. The events of the book occurred between Alien and Aliens whilst Ripley was still drifting through space; ~40 years after the nostromo I think. The Dog-alien civilisation and the buried city on LV178 were definitely ancient."

IRaptus

I agree, I think that this is branching off/evolving into a new topic...not sure what to call it/name it though, so if you have some ideas, please share them?

Yeah, there's a lot of currently-Canon works that I suspect will be having their Canonicity revoked as R. Scott forges ahead. As I mentioned before, FOX is cleaning up the franchise, I suspect they might take the same direction Disney did with Star Wars and divide things between Canon and 'Extended Universe' with Canon based off films, and possibly only those R. Scott was involved with, and works that stick close to that style Eg; Isolation.

Then again, FOX is a weird corporation/studio and impossible to really predict.

I sometime wonder when FOX will reveal themselves and change their name to Weyland-Yutani Corp lol hahaha.

IRaptus

Heh, fun thought, especially when one considers that Truth/reality is often far stranger than Fiction. ;)

Well its some very interesting debate we have going on here Blackwinter-witch ;)

As far as the Generations of Man...

I think it could be that those beings are connected on Paradise and Engineers, maybe those beings are Engineers who was kicked out of Paradise and decided to create in their own image?

Maybe those above those beings on Paradise or Engineers, decided to create us as a replacement to the Rebellion of those beings on Paradise/Engineers?

I think there had been Engineer like beings who was deemed unfit for purpose or some other thing happened, where they was then Re-engineered to try again.... and then again and again.. Until we are one of the further Generations.

It would be similar to David and Walter, Walter is created in Davids Image but has had some changes made to improve him as far as Flaws that was a Threat with David Models... and we see some point down the line they abandoned the Walter Models too... hence we got Ash and Bishop etc.

I think this is maybe what the Source was on about?

I think it could link to Generations of Man in the Bible but they may change things a bit so the Older Generations prior to Noah may had been Engineer like Humanoids.. and then even with Noahs Generation maybe Mankind had been replaced Evolved or Devolved if you would to take away traits that posed a threat.

Size, Intelligence, Strength and Life Expectancy etc.

We need to remember the older Generations in the Bible like Noah lived for about a Thousand Years...  Also Adam before the Fall (Forbiden Fruit) would have lived for a Great Great Time.

Maybe this could play into the Plot, we have Engineers who live for a long time, so they are replaced with another smaller Humanoid Race who live less of a time, and they are replaced by another who live even less.

Each Generation they get Smaller, more Hairy and live less.. maybe because they are mixed with Primates?

"Well its some very interesting debate we have going on here Blackwinter-witch ;)

As far as the Generations of Man...

I think it could be that those beings are connected on Paradise and Engineers, maybe those beings are Engineers who was kicked out of Paradise and decided to create in their own image?

Maybe those above those beings on Paradise or Engineers, decided to create us as a replacement to the Rebellion of those beings on Paradise/Engineers?

I think there had been Engineer like beings who was deemed unfit for purpose or some other thing happened, where they was then Re-engineered to try again.... and then again and again.. Until we are one of the further Generations.

It would be similar to David and Walter, Walter is created in Davids Image but has had some changes made to improve him as far as Flaws that was a Threat with David Models... and we see some point down the line they abandoned the Walter Models too... hence we got Ash and Bishop etc.

I think this is maybe what the Source was on about?

I think it could link to Generations of Man in the Bible but they may change things a bit so the Older Generations prior to Noah may had been Engineer like Humanoids.. and then even with Noahs Generation maybe Mankind had been replaced Evolved or Devolved if you would to take away traits that posed a threat.

Size, Intelligence, Strength and Life Expectancy etc.

We need to remember the older Generations in the Bible like Noah lived for about a Thousand Years...  Also Adam before the Fall (Forbiden Fruit) would have lived for a Great Great Time.

Maybe this could play into the Plot, we have Engineers who live for a long time, so they are replaced with another smaller Humanoid Race who live less of a time, and they are replaced by another who live even less.

Each Generation they get Smaller, more Hairy and live less.. maybe because they are mixed with Primates?"

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BigDave

Good points, very good points...another possible reason is that Homo Sapiens are the 'newest' thus have more long-term evolutionary potential...a 'Superior Model' as it were, like the Walters being a more advanced model over the Davids.

Possibly a combination of the two: Remove/suppress/delay the development of the qualities that make a species a threat so that when they Mature (evolutionarily-speaking) then they can manage such qualities intelligently as they/we/homo-sapiens will have grown into them over time.

The posibilities are quite limitless.

I am kind of thinking more towards David as far as Evolution to make him so Advanced, then when they reach this Level, Mankind realizes the Threat due to his Advancements and while new Models may improve some things they also make sure they Put Limitations on Future Models to limit the Threat of Rebellion we saw with David.

I think Rebellion is a KEY Theme at play.

If we look at Earth we have the Mythos about Atlantis and how this more Advanced Human Race was Destroyed, and we have some theories that seem to show MARS may have had Pyramid like Structures as well as Ruins of Cities.

If we are going the route of a Godlike Hierarchy or the Top of the Chain as far as the Engineers go, and then we have to ask  why would these beings in context to our interpretations of GODS and other Mythos decide to Destroy One Kind of Humanity/Mankind.... Only to then Start Over or Save a Few.

The Gods must have found flaws, and so did they Re-experiment and create exactly the same or save a few and start again hoping that the eventual reason they was deemed failures or Rebelled would not rise again?

Or would they make Changes Genetically to limit the next Generation of Creations.

If the Engineers say created the Xenomorph and it proved problematic i am sure if they was to go back to the Drawing Board or even Edit the current Design... then surely removing the ability of a Queen would be something they would consider, as while it poses a great threat and makes the Weapon more Deadly (Procreate on Mass) this could be a flaw for the Engineers or who ever created the Bio-Weapon unless its only Intention is to Destroy much like a Atomic Bomb, as when you decide to Bomb a City to Bits with a Nuke, you render this Place Useless for any purpose for a very long time.

Which could bring us to those beings on Paradise, if they and if they are Engineers or not but connected some way..  Regardless... having these beings being able to Procreate could potentially prove a Problem if they show signs of Rebellion and not Following the Rules.

Look at Mankind now... and how we have Damaged our World, and yet our Numbers Keep Growing and Growing..

If we was created by God or some other Beings then in Hindsight maybe only allowing a Female to Birth ONE Child would proved a more ideal situation.

If Weyland Advance Synthetics to a Level that they have a Female and Male, and they can then somehow Procreate, if these Synthetics then Rebel against us like a Terminator Scenario... having Synthetics than can Procreate would be a MASSIVE  Error on our part.

Who ever knows, if regarding those beings/Engineers on Paradise, and the Queen if these was never intended as far as Females/Queen and was instead a Freak Evolution or a Engineered One...

This would be like Synthetics Evolving themselves to Procreate.

And in regards to all the above... if these was seen a Treat to their Creators... then surely they would Want to Pull the Plug.

The QUESTION is Why Re-start again though?

Contains spoilers for Alien: Out Of The Shadows and Alien: River Of Pain

Blackwinter-witch:"... BUT that work is at odds with the Timeline and Canon that..."

Is it? Sure the "Anubis-city" is millennia old but so is the derelict on LV-426 or at least said to be. Same goes for the installation on LV-223 especially the Xeno/Deacon depicting mural.

Even when we exclude the derelict and Anubis-City a Xeno-ish creature must've existed a long time before Prometheus. The 223-mural is proof for that.

I think it was BigDave who said "... maybe David doesn't create the xeno but rather recreates it...". Or something along those lines.

As for A:OotS, yes it is set roughly 40 (37 to be precise) yrs after the Nostromo Incident. The only real weak points it's storyline are Ripley and Ash or rather what is left of him.

Ripley: At the end her "short time" memory is erased with a medpod onboard the marion. That's why she can't remember LV-178 or the Marion. Not very elegant but oh well...

Ash: Is said to have transferred a part of his AI into MUTHUR and then went into the computer of the Narcissus. He then keeps manipulating things to fulfill  special order 937. As someone who works in IT-business that's the most lacking part. It's hard for me to imagine that a LIFEBOAT computer is strong enough to hold a true AI, even if it's only partially. I further have problems in seeing Ash hacking systems wich were build 40 yrs later. But again, oh well...

In regards of canon. At least A:OotS was written under FOX's supervision. They even wanted the author to rewrite/change parts of the story. I don't know if that's also true for the other books of the trilogy (Sea Of Sorrow and River Of Pain). 

I also read A:RoP. Mainly coz someone claimed there'd be "dogs" too, wich isn't the case though. It mainly focuses on how Hadley's Hope is overrun by aliens. However, there are a few interesting details at the beginning of the book, when Newt's parents venture into the derelict:

- They take a different entry than the Nostromo crew

- They find combat signs, acid burns and "projectile" impacts

- They find corpses, likely Engineers. Described as ~8ft tall and dead Xenos

- They find a dead queen and engineer embracing each other while fighting.

And yet again OH WELL...