Versions Of Humanity

My theory is that David uses a female engineer (and not shaw) to birth the black goo eggs.

I still keep thinking of that interview where Ridley Scott referred to the statues of the Engineers while talking about who created us and said if you think its them you are dead wrong....i still think that there may be some higher power or race at play even above the engineers. I think that could be cool on screen, like what David is doing and his experiments have woke them up or unknowingly called to them and they are terrifying and deadly although a higher power...that could be cool on screen if done right.

a couple of other options  to think about are :

* I still feel that it was weird that the cave paintings referred to LV223, why would they "invite" anyone to a planet that is just a deadly lab, it doesnt make sense, nor why would the people who made the cave paintings know about it. I think the cave painting might possibly have referred to that same system but another location in that system, NOT LV223....using logic, if LV223 was developing black goo to drop on planets to eradicate life then why would humans know about this beforehand or even afterwards, if the beings on LV223 had visited everything would be dead so there would be no one left to reference, plus as Janek stated so eloquently this is not the Engineers home planet but just an instillation. I think the star maps meant someplace else, perhaps Paradise in AC is close by in same star system or something, but LV223 as the location in the cave paintings; that is just something that doesnt add up for me.

----Also what if in some horrific reveal it is determined that we are actually the decedents of the xenomorphs

---Or when all is said and done it is revealed that humans are the higher power, somewhere in the universe a branch of humanity created the engineers and quite possibly the xenomorphs. That is why the faction of Engineers on LV223 were so eager to eradicate life on Earth because Earth is a branch of the species they hate so much

Ok just crazy thoughts, time is getting short cant wait for May 19th...but this stuff really gets the imagination going doesnt it, thats what makes it so great!

@Tiwaz

Im reading River of Pain now and just about up to them entering the Derelict. Sounds like some interesting reading, I was hoping the author would elaborate on what the Jordans found in there!!!

I forgot, there is another species/life-form mentioned in both Aliens and River of Pain, the Arcturians. River of Pain mentions them as being "valuable trading partners to Earth and W-Y", suggesting they are intelligent with technology at least reasonably advanced and compatible with human tech to warrant trade. Maybe another version of humanity???

Seeing as they are first mentioned in James Cameron's film, I doubt Ridley will wish to feature or flesh out this species in his films. But you never know.

@IRaptus

Right, I totally forgot bout them. Sadly there's little info bout them except for them being either transgender or even hermaphrodites.

I suspect Cameron  had something like the Na'vi from Avatar in mind.

"The posibilities are quite limitless.

I am kind of thinking more towards David as far as Evolution to make him so Advanced, then when they reach this Level, Mankind realizes the Threat due to his Advancements and while new Models may improve some things they also make sure they Put Limitations on Future Models to limit the Threat of Rebellion we saw with David.

I think Rebellion is a KEY Theme at play.

If we look at Earth we have the Mythos about Atlantis and how this more Advanced Human Race was Destroyed, and we have some theories that seem to show MARS may have had Pyramid like Structures as well as Ruins of Cities.

If we are going the route of a Godlike Hierarchy or the Top of the Chain as far as the Engineers go, and then we have to ask  why would these beings in context to our interpretations of GODS and other Mythos decide to Destroy One Kind of Humanity/Mankind.... Only to then Start Over or Save a Few.

The Gods must have found flaws, and so did they Re-experiment and create exactly the same or save a few and start again hoping that the eventual reason they was deemed failures or Rebelled would not rise again?

Or would they make Changes Genetically to limit the next Generation of Creations.

If the Engineers say created the Xenomorph and it proved problematic i am sure if they was to go back to the Drawing Board or even Edit the current Design... then surely removing the ability of a Queen would be something they would consider, as while it poses a great threat and makes the Weapon more Deadly (Procreate on Mass) this could be a flaw for the Engineers or who ever created the Bio-Weapon unless its only Intention is to Destroy much like a Atomic Bomb, as when you decide to Bomb a City to Bits with a Nuke, you render this Place Useless for any purpose for a very long time.

Which could bring us to those beings on Paradise, if they and if they are Engineers or not but connected some way..  Regardless... having these beings being able to Procreate could potentially prove a Problem if they show signs of Rebellion and not Following the Rules.

Look at Mankind now... and how we have Damaged our World, and yet our Numbers Keep Growing and Growing..

If we was created by God or some other Beings then in Hindsight maybe only allowing a Female to Birth ONE Child would proved a more ideal situation.

If Weyland Advance Synthetics to a Level that they have a Female and Male, and they can then somehow Procreate, if these Synthetics then Rebel against us like a Terminator Scenario... having Synthetics than can Procreate would be a MASSIVE  Error on our part.

Who ever knows, if regarding those beings/Engineers on Paradise, and the Queen if these was never intended as far as Females/Queen and was instead a Freak Evolution or a Engineered One...

This would be like Synthetics Evolving themselves to Procreate.

And in regards to all the above... if these was seen a Treat to their Creators... then surely they would Want to Pull the Plug.

The QUESTION is Why Re-start again though?"

REPLY BEGINS****************

BigDave

I have to agree that Rebellion is if not THE theme, then certainly an important one. Good point on Atlantis and especially Mars, as on Mars there's strong evidence to support 3 truly immense nuclear detonations on it's surface long, long ago. The evidence is not conclusive, but fits well to this convo. :)

Now, as to the question of why the Creators would create multiple versions of Humanity, destroy some, save a few of a given population within the total population of one Version...

We have to try to see from their Perspective, which will be tricky as it's gonna be like Capuchin monkeys trying to comprehend the Human perspective. The Creators are likely so much more Ancient and Intelligent than we are that they will always remain somewhat inscrutable and unknowable. Also, to them, we are mere experiments, nothing they'd have any Connection to on an emotional-investment basis. I don't think they see any of their creations as a Threat of any kind, any more than Laboratory reserachers see Rhesus Monkeys in their lab as a possible threat.

They found flaws, or were intrigued by certain unexpected qualities that arose in their 'research projects' so brought down the hammer to see if such might re-arise, or if such was a one-off fluke. That's one possibility. They might adjust things, to Limit some qualities, Advance other qualities, or do so merely to see if such creates significant difference to what they planned/intended and if so, improves or degrades that development path.

The xenos, sans queen and with a maximum lifespan of 24 to 72 hours make an Ideal anti-Human weapon system for 'pruning', as it were. Remove an infestation of Homo Sapiens yet with minimal damage to a planet's Biosphere...unlike Black Goo, which makes for a Total Weapon with unpredictable results if just dumped on a planet.  Without a Queen-dependent system, they spread a geometric order of magnitude faster. I can see the Engineers adjusting the development of the Xenos to fine-tune them, yes.

Your points on Synthetic and Human procreation, yeah...such does change things, when one's creations can procreate. Machines like synthetics, the technology is definitely there, and it's not a leap for some Synthetics to experiment with such. Synthetics able to procreate make a larger problem and much quicker than Terminators who are factory-dependent and Terminators are also Limited by Skynet to not think too much.

Why keep re-starting? The Creators likely operate on a different time scale than we do...EG, consider how long our lives are relative to fruit flies and mice. So, for all we know, this might all still be 'early on' in their experimentations.

Given all the various Canonical sources and such like OOTS, and such...I just don't know anymore. It's very difficult to keep things straight now.

My 'default' is sticking to whatever Ridley Scott contributes to this franchise, as trying to assimilate all the rest, frankly just overwhelms me.

For me, I want to see more in this universe than just Ripley, Xenos and Engineers. I'm fascinated by the deeper mysteries and history that R. Scott is tempting us all with. There are SO many more and different stories in the ALIENverse, and if FOX grants me the boon of Recognizing/Licensing/Canonizing my works, readers and fans will have the opportunity to walk out even further into the deeper darkness between the stars in a godless and uncaring universe. :) BUT, all my works cue off R. Scotts contributions, exclusively, and while they do not erase certain events in the 'Extended Universe', they DO change things in some events and incidents detail-wise.

Lifespan of 72 hrs? Did I miss anything?

What did Burke in Aliens say? Unless mistaken it was  "... lost contact 2 weeks ago...". Adding the Sulaco's travel time makes how much, 4 weeks? And when they arrive the Xenos a still kicking, including the queen. That implies a far longer lifespan.

Just in case I don't want to come across offensive or  argumentative (is that even a word? XD), I'm just wondering.

Blackwinter Witch I hope they release your works too, insatiable fans need more material to read between films. Especially if you keep to Ridleys dark, mystery, godless vision!!

Best of luck with it!!

Tiwaz

The Original alien according to R. Scott was preparing to die, which is why it had crawled into that hide-hole on the Narcissus. It had reached the natural end of it's life, had secured the imminent birth of the next generation of it's kind and that's how they saw it. Granted, ALIENS changed that, and frankly Cameron buggered Canon in more than a few ways, but I'll always default to the Original Franchise Creators regarding Canon, meaning R. Scott and O'Bannon.

I'll never forgive Cameron for shamelessly lifting from the novel Starship Troopers to base his 'treatment' of the ALIENverse on...the creatures went from being awesome, scary, nightmare-inducing creations to badly-lit, poorly-done spandex suits in a shoot'em up flick. Cameron has NO sense or grasp of the ALIENverse at all. His LAME and pedestrian idea of a 'queen'...well, that turned the Creatures into angry-slobbery-space-ants, random targets and something of a joke for Raid commercials.

The original life cycle and procreation the Alien had was splendidly ALIEN and NON-terrestrial, but Cameron couldn't understand it, so he dumbed it down for himself and by extension the audience.

IRaptus

Thank-you for saying and the well-wishing!! :D

I have always been, and remain in love with R. Scott's Dark Vision, to me that's the core essence of the franchise, because that's the all-essential 'Feel' of it.

What I can say about my works is that the timeframe is set at the point of Alien: Isolation, so 2137. there's a big gap of 57 years between Nostromo being lost and ALIENS, so lots of room to play. :D It revolves around an independent starship, and will feature something never before seen in the ALIENverse: ship-to-ship combat, and it ain't gonna be like Star Trek or other franchise's views of such. ;)

My work explores some of the Bigger Questions, and steps even deeper into the darkness between the stars.

@Blackwinter-witch

Now that you mention it I think I briefly read something bout the lifespan, a while ago.

He he Raid commercial, good one, BWW. XD

@Blackwinter-witch

Indeed very good comments and i am along the kind of same thinking...  Oh  a tiny bit of Friendly Advice...  It may be easier if you reply to some people and especially me, if you just quote maybe first few lines or each point a bit.. rather than say a whole Topic..  not saying there was nothing wrong with this.. Just my Posts can be a BIT LONG lol  and so a copy and paste and then your reply could take up a bit of space and it may mean some people on here could miss out on what you reply was ;)

I will reply to your reply next.. but first about the Life Span.. i am not 100% sure where any information was about the Life Span, i am sure SM would be the best to find out from.  I do not read many of the Books and Comics so if its from these sources i may have missed it.

I do recall but i cant remember where, where they did say the Xenomorph has a limited life span and once its job is completed it indeed then dies off...   But i dont recall how many Days or Weeks was mentioned.

I know the Face Hugger takes about 24 hours on average to Gestate inside a Host but this can very from 12-36 hours.

If the Xenomorph was a Engineered Weapon then it would be ideal to have a Fail Safe and Limited Life Span, otherwise its not a Perfect Weapon apart from the use of Totally Destroying a World.

I think there is some evidence in the movies that however would give a 72 hour Life Span some doubt, such as in Aliens.  So a Life Span of Weeks or Months would maybe be more likely.

The Queen however could live for much longer, just as a Ant Queen and Termite Queen live for much much longer than Ants/Termites.

I would assume from what we are shown in Aliens that a Warriors Task is to Build a Hive, Collect Hosts and then Protect the Queen and Eggs and so a Short Life Span would not support this Life-style/Structure as shown in the Hive.

But we cant rule out the Xeno Queen and Warriors being some kind of Accidental Hybrid/Mutation that gives rise to a Queen and Warriors that then can Procreate (via Queen) and has a Longer Life Span and also Warriors having a longer one too.

Compared to indeed the Drone in Alien which indeed i do understand that the Idea was it was Ready to Die, as it had done its Job with the Egg Morph's/Egg Morph and Cocooned Host in Alien Directors Cut.

I think indeed this was the Original Purpose before Cameron's Aliens, and made for a much more ideal Weapon, if the Drone would kill off Life and Evolve them into Eggs and then Die.

If the Engineers then had a method to collect those Eggs Safely then they can indeed re-use the Weapon over and over which is what Gavin Singleton on here had as his Theory.  Which is a very Valid one that only Aliens throws into Question... but again maybe the Queen and resulting Warriors was a unexpected Evolution.

As for the Reasons to Create us...

Well this is where its interesting and we need to maybe break this down into a Few Categories.

Biblical Account (and related), Other Mythos and indeed in context of both Why We would Create Androids and also Evolution.

Many Religions, Fables and Mythos Exist about Creation and here are some of the reasons for it.

*Because God/God's were Lonely and wanted Companionship and something to look after and be looked upon by.  (Many Cultures this reason fits and also one reason for us Creating any Potential Androids).

*Because God's had a Specific Task or Role for us, so we was created to serve a purpose and perform tasks, some cultures cover this and indeed the Annunaki Tale fits with this, and also a reason why we would Create Androids too.

*To Boast/Showcase God/God's Power, so to create in order to allow God/Creators to Show they did Because they could and that showing they could Proves just how Great they are and have Become. So Creation is just a reflection to show how truly Powerful these God's/Creators are.  And indeed this could be One Reason Mankind would pursue the creation of Humanoid Androids.

*Accidental/Manipulation/Evolution if Creation was not planned in the way it was, and some creations are the result of events that Manipulate a Creation to Evolve to something else, this could be by Accident, or Evolution or indeed Direct Manipulation by other Factors that would bring about a Result that was nothing the initial Creation was planed for.

This could well fit into say Prometheus, if the Seeding was not Planned by those in Charge or it was to develop Primates or similar, but Natural Evolution Changed the Course of this.. or direct Manipulation so in terms of Prometheus the Engineers could have kept altering our DNA over and over against the Original Intention that was set out.

WHY DESTROY CREATION?

Again Blackwinter-witch

You made some Good Points as far as the Life-Span of our Creators, when you compared us to that of a Insect like a Fly, indeed what would be a Whole Generation of Creation in terms of Mankind so say a 35-70'000 years could be in Terms of a God Nothing and just merely Days,  Some Interpret the Biblical Creation of 7 Days as Actually 7'000 as Each God Day is a Thousand of ours... but then what if its more than that, and like a Million Years.

The point being indeed as you said, the Engineers for example could live 100'000 years or a few Hundreds of Thousands, or at very least who ever created them.

But back to other Reasons for Wanting to Destroy a creation, and here are a few that come to mind.

*Its time to simply try something else, create something else and the current creations may interfere with the new plans and so a Reset the Sandbox and Start again could be needed.

*The Creation did not turn out the way intended or ran its course in the eyes of the Creator, which leads to then the prior Point.

*The creation proves Rebellious, or has turned into something not planned that is a cause of concern. Or Potential Threat.

I would say with the Weyland Androids the last point would be a concern and i do think to a degree this is what also the Engineers was concerned with as far as Mankind.

BWW, You're welcome.  I'm glad I could help facilitate kicking this thread forward.

BigDave

The main reason I go with quoting an entire post is my eyesight is extremely poor and compounded with pretty severe Dyslexia, so constantly scrolling up to find the point-of-reply then back down can easily lead to my ending up posting a muddied and confusing reply. It's a method I use to be able to ensure I don't miss any points or worse, give the wrong reply to the wrong person and confuse everyone even more so. All my replies here get done up on a Word document, spell checked (or you folks would NOT understand them) then copy-pasted-posted.

I'll try it your suggested way, as it WOULD be nice to save myself some work. :D

Tiwaz

Glad you liked the 'Raid' comment. :D

Yeah I went digging about a year ago and came up with a wealth of old interviews, pre-production material, concept art, and associated other stuff having to do with ALIEN, and I always loved the 'mayfly' like lifecycle, as it's a Perfect Organism, as a Weapon vs a population.

24 to 72 hours was gleaned from an old interview with O'Bannon and Scott, I think they said '24 to 72' hours to keep the door open on some story ideas.

BigDave

Trying a new trick for replies, so if things get murky, apologies.

A queen would of course live longer, as you said, akin to terrestrial insect species. I concede the points you make regarding Cameron's ALIENS and onward, there's no dispute the aliens in the atmo-processor hive were at least a few weeks old in many cases. This would make Aliens a huge problem in post-deployment clean-up, which would make them a less-than-perfect/ideal weapon. Actually if used vs a planet, you'd only be able to use them to destroy it and then deny it to anyone else in the future including your own interests.

As for any canonical 'explanation' of why queens exist, well it all comes down to Cameron's limited imaginative capacity. He found the original life-cycle model 'confusing' and adopted from terrestrial Army Ants. For a weapon though, a queen is a serious weakness, kill her and you seriously degrade overall weapon effectiveness. True, the Queen could be an evolutionary accident of sorts.

Gavin Singleton, as you mention, made a really great observation that I missed and never considered!! TY for mentioning it!!

BigDave

I suspect the Gods might well have created the Versions of Humanity out of desire to create, say, a Worker species, but also perhaps within that frame it was a competition among some of them.

OR, they had never before attempted creation of Sentient lifeforms before, and thus it's a First Round of experimentation among various Creators, which comes back to competition between them to see which Version is the best and most useful to them as well as examining the various problems associated in creating such.

BigDave

Your points about 'why destroy creation' are so complete, I have nothing to add!! :D All are valid, and if we look at there being multiple Gods, then each one could well have applied at one time or another.