The Third Moon's Relationship To The Xenomorph?

We can only guess... the Source was very vague and i think mentioning it here would De-Rail this thread, but by all means make a Thread to Explore more about what the Engineers could have been or even add a reply on the recent FATE OF THE ENGINEERS thread.

I would guess its maybe about Creation and Sub-Creation Overthrowing and Overruling their Creators, maybe even without their Creators Knowledge?   As for Dark Crystal i cant be sure, a theme could be that we had a Benevolent Race/Cause that had been tampered with that leads to a great calamity and fall and altering the Agenda/Appearance of Ancient Ruling Creator Race?

If we look at Prometheus and when i try and see how can Matrix and Dark Crystal connect, i can only really come up with that we have some VERY Ancient Beings/Race that should have just been contempt with their Lives/Ways and not Tamper with anything, try and Create, or even use something of Great Power that Ultimately leads to Chaos.

If we look at the Matrix.... if Mankind never invented AI and we lived just as we did thousands of years ago, then the Machines and all that went on in the Matrix would not have happened..  Our Hubris for exploring Technology and Playing Gods.. Enslaved us to our Creations.

I think Prometheus has similar theme with the Engineers, in hindsight if they had never messed with the Black Goo/Sacrificial Goo, if they never tried to Evolve themselves with Technology or Genetic Engineer and never Sub-Created.. then the Engineers could well all be living in relative peace again like Ancient Mankind.

How any Dark Crystal fits i just dont know, as this Plot just basically shows a Ancient Race, who had a source of great power (the Dark Crystal) and some of these beings became greedy and not content with their purpose and tried to use the Power of the Crystal and this back fired, cracked and Split these Ancient beings into TWO separate Factions with very different Motives/Agendas.   I think i can see some similarities to what Prometheus could have been showing, but its hard to really see it being to much like the Dark Crystal.   Unless the Elders are the urSkeks and abuse something that leads to the Planet 4 Engineers (Mystics) and LV-223 Engineers (Skeksis) or the Xenomorph Ancestry is the Skeksis? 

red0guy raised the following question: "And why send so few people on the Sulaco when it can hold hundreds?"

The answer to this is quite simple: At the time Ripley is rescued (2179) mankind has no knowledge of either engineers or xenomorphs. Ripley's report about what happened to the crew of the "Nostromo" is met with disbelief (with the exception of Burke). At the hearing at the beginning of "Aliens" nobody bothers to ask questions about the derelict spacecraft and the creature Ripley describes. The members of the commission seem to think that Ripely is talking nonsense. Ripley is even put on "psychometric probation" (whatever that is). A woman refers to the xenomorph as "a creature never recorded once in over 300 surveyed worlds". This means: By the late 2170s mankind has explored and (probably) colonized more than 300 planets/planetoids WITHOUT ever coming across engineers and xenomorphs. Since Ripley's story sounds so outlandish, the authorities don't think it necessary to send a large rescue team when contact with the colony on LV 426 is lost. The team is so small because nobody thinks that Ripley's story might be true after all. The marines don't take the mission seriously, they ask whether it is "just another bug hunt". The horror awaiting them on LV 426 is beyond their imagination. This means: While advancing into space, mankind has encountered only some primitive life-forms, mere "bugs", but no highly developed organisms, let alone another space-faring race like the engineers.

Since LV 223 ("Prometheus") and Planet 4 ("Alien Covenant") are quite close to earth the questions arises: Why didn't mankind become aware of engineers and xenomorphs in the time span between the disappearance of the "Nostromo" and Ripley's rescue (57 years)? In 2179 LV 223 and Planet 4 must surely be among the more than 300 surveyed worlds referred to in "Aliens". Or have they (and the vestiges of engineers and xenomorphs) been "overlooked", despite their relative proximity to earth?

When Ripley tells her story to the commission she is treated almost like a lunatic. Nobody on earth has ever known about the encounters between humans and engineers and xenomorphs that happened in "Prometheus", "Alien Covenant" and "Alien" because three spaceships and their crews disappeared without a trace. In the Alien Universe spaceships seem to get lost on a regular basis, it seems to happen all the time, and mankind remains blissfully unaware of the horrors lurking in space ... until Ripley is awakened from her 57-year slumber.

Andrew1975

Sorry, but I was asking that because it seemed wasteful to send such a big ship for such a small team... 

@ red0guy

Your question prompted me to elaborate on some of the problems I have with "Prometheus" and "Alien Covenant". There are some major inconsistencies between the two prequels on the one hand and "Alien" and "Aliens" on the other hand. In "Alien" and "Aliens" we are led to believe that humans are the only space-faring race in the universe (apart from the mysterious Space Jockey who seems to have died a long time ago). Then Ridley Scott introduces the engineers. But where are the engineers when mankind starts to advance into space in the 20th and 21st centuries? When and why did the engineers stop "checking up" on humans in general and mankind's civilizational and technological progress in particular? Why did they lose interest in their creation? How is it possible that humans remain unaware of engineers until the end of the 21st century, many, many decades after starting to advance into deep space? How is it possible that at the time of "Aliens" humans still have no knowledge of engineers, be they living or dead? This needs to be explained. But I have the impression that the scriptwriters of "Prometheus" and "Alien Covenant" didn't care about such questions. I find this very annoying.

Andrew1975

In this movies you can't know exactly what exactly the Company knows , because, you know they are  Evil. After Prometheus, it was clear that the Engineer wanted to wipe out humanity around 2000 years before the events of the movie. Were there 2 factions of Engineer? How often to they check out their creation your guess is good as mine, as they welcomed en masse the arrival of ship lost for more than 2000 years? But how this adds up with the 2 faction theory? Planet 4 is implied to be hidden from human detection (both gravitational and optical?)....

Yes the writers did care more about David and his Experiments in AC.

the problem with understanding what the company knows and doesn't know is lack of confirmation either by the movie makers or in film scenes. we have the weyland files but no one has confirmed these to be cannon or just a marketing extra to sell more blu rays. if they r cannon then the company are aware of a signal on lv426 but what the signal is isn't confirmed. it is assumed it is the derelict but that has been thrown into confusion now as it appears they might go the crap, distasteful and unjust path of having David be responsible for the derelict. so who knows. depends on what mood RS is in when he starts filming I suppose

Ah, Jesus, so many versions, so many opinions, so many canons, so many explanations...

Everybody is right, and nobody is right!

I've had enough! :)

I hope Scott and Disney see the problem and they will find the way of making an awesome final Alien prequel which will explain and show everything!

I don't want mystery and ambiguity anymore!

Ati,

I think BigDave and myself could do just that if we collaborated - but with BD would be willing is unsure. The problem with things like the Weyland Files, the technical manual and some "information" sites is that they add extra information we do not see in the movies, which are THE canon, imo. The infographic about the Black Pathogen is a perfect example, because its data is now mute because of A:C.

This is very true Gavin, we get back ground information and then things get changed that contradict the previous information...   it appears the writers are not massive Alien Fans and dont really have much coherent knowledge of what is laid down prior.... or they dont care.

I would love to see what this supposed 20 Page ALIEN Bible contains as far as a Guide Book that was worked on during Alien Covenant that no doubt is Ridley Scott setting down a A-Z about what is going on within the Franchise so that Future movies can use this information to work off and not end up contradicting each other.

As far as the whole in-continuity about the Engineers in the Alien Timeline, this is because they was never considered by no one else after ALIEN but the Prequels show indeed Mankind and the Company knew of the Engineers, Xenomorph and LV-223 etc prior to ALIEN

We just have to hope some Movie is released that clears up why it appears they are not known or explored in the ALIEN Franchise... The only Logical way is a CONSPIRACY and COVER UP but the Engineers is the Big One, unless the Engineers are based on Planet 4 and they only have a Few Ships that are away on Business and these say 3-5 ships or less, get eradicated by the time of ALIEN

But then those Engineers could also be out and about in far reaches of Space, Thousands of Light Years away that they have NO knowledge of the events of Prometheus and Alien Covenant.  Only the odd ship that returns after Alien Covenant finds out... and they can signal the other Engineers but who knows how long any signal would reach the others or where they are....

If the Engineers are set up on other Worlds or Galaxies many Thousands of Light years away, they could just take care of Planet 4, LV-223 and Origae-6 and Clean these Places up and then abandon our Quadrant of the Galaxy.

I think these kinds of things have to be addressed as they dont add up to the ALIEN timeline, especially with Ridley Scotts War of the Worlds Comment....  UNLESS we find out Ridley Scott would have intended to do his prequels and get to ALIEN and then do more movies that would remove ALIENS from Canon... because by doing a Blomkamp with ALIENS would allow for Engineers etc to become part of the Time-Line after ALIEN

Regarding the Mystery...

I think they have to give us a Prequel that leaves the Ending a bit Open... so Fans can either think... "oh so that Engineer and his Ship with those Eggs, is now going to LV-426" (well ends there)  but also leave it open that some fans can go "so that Engineer and those Eggs leaves but maybe its going some place else and not LV-426"

We maybe thus dont need a Spoon Fed Space Jockey Event, were we see the Crash etc...  if enough is shown in the next few movies, Fans will be able to see HOW a XENOMORPH can be CREATED while leaving it open as far as us NOT having 100% Proof Davids Xenomorphs are on the Derelict or not.

I think Prometheus tried to give us the answers, just vaguely and RS then commented to actually give some back ground to what Prometheus was doing as far as connecting to ALIEN and told us the Space Jockey Event but kept the Time-Frame Ambiguous so that it was a few hundred years prior or after the Outbreak.

I think Prometheus 2 was to show us HOW the Xenomorph could be created with out actually creating the Xenomorph from ALIEN or showing us the event..  Once you see how something is Re-created then you get enough answers to know how the Original may have been created.

The Source i had appeared to hint towards this.... but alas the backlash for Prometheus, had Forced them to Actually have to Spoon Feed HOW the Xenomorph on LV-426 had been Created, which by doing so meant the Time-Line of this event would have to be changed... which then allowed RS to then think.... ok  WHAT IF David creates the Xenomorph then?

Prometheus had the Clues....   Dr Shaw ===> Deacon was enough to show HOW a Xenomorph type Organism could be Created, but it was not good enough....  so it appeared IF the Source was correct that by Re-creating something similar to the Xenomorph that was closer to it than the Deacon yet not the Original Xenomorph, then maybe Fans would get the Answers....  To then having to SPOON FEED a actual Xenomorph and still some fans dont get it at all.

I have seen some Fans Puzzled about HOW those Eggs got in the Cave in Alien Covenant, some fans who feel those Eggs must have been there for many years..

Because simply Prometheus showing us that this LV-223 place had either been experimenting on and creating the Black Goo from the Xenomorph, or the Xenomorph came from the Black Goo... or both come from some other Ancestor...  But this still did not do.... as FOX felt FANS needed to see exactly how the XENOMORPH in Alien was created/where it came from... WHEN/HOW and it appears during the work on Alien Covenant, it was decided to showcase the WHEN/HOW took place after the Events of Prometheus instead.

When in reality it appears indeed Female Biology was required to arrive at a Ovomorph perhaps, rather than the kind of infection like a Neomorph...... well i think its inferred maybe a Female is needed to obtain a Face Hugger type Organism.

"I think BigDave and myself could do just that if we collaborated"

I would be interested in pitching some ideas, the problem is there are so many different ones to explore..  I dont think a Direct Prequel to ALIEN was required, because if people had listened to RS comments on the Space Jockey then watched Prometheus, looked at the unused concept work and read Alien Engineers, then we have enough clues.

*The Space Jockey had obtained/was carrying the Eggs, Crash Landed on LV-426 and then Engineers latter decided to Experiment on the Cargo and this lead to all the Experiments on LV-223 and Black Goo.   A EVENT some 100-200 years prior to the Outbreak on LV-223

*The Space Jockey's Cargo was something that Evolved from the Experiments and Black Goo on LV-223 and his EVENT happened 100-200 years after the Outbreak on LV-223

But with the change since Alien Covenant, its a tricky one.. its a case of NOW will we go the route that Davids Creations, get Evolved and end up on a Engineer Ship that by more than Coincidence ends up on the Door Step to LV-223.  OR do they give us clues to suggest the Engineers had created similar thousands of years prior and thus David just Re-Created it.

Looking at Ridley Scott, he intends to follow through with the Fact that if it was not for David and the Prometheus Mission then there would be NO Derelict on LV-426...  This does not mean that David plays the Final Part in how the Alien Covenant Xenomorphs become those in ALIEN the answer to this could be with the Engineers or who ever are above them... especially if we ask what was the Fascination with the Black Goo and the Mural in Prometheus for the Engineers.

“... as it appears they might go the crap, distasteful and unjust path of having David be responsible for the derelict.”

Hopefully not, they have already ruined much of the Xeno by making David responsible for it. I really hope that they don't make him responsible for the derelict because then the prequels turns into a completely AI crap-fest which deserves to be flushed down the toilet.

Gavin - That is a good piece of news. Please help create the ultimate Alien prequel. Wee need it.

"Hadley's Hope was a billion dollar venture. But in 2179 what is 1 billion relatively. In Victorian England £100 was considered a small fortune, during WWII it was considered a sizeable amount of monies, today it is virtually small change."

Good to bring that up Gavin. The Nostromo was valued in the tens of millions ($42 million) before cargo so the Hadley's Hope costs can be compared to the expense of the ship.

There is absolutely no way Weyland-Yutani Corporation would admit they found traces of the xenomorph in Ellen Ripley's escape shuttle from the Nostromo in this room above...no chance. 

The insurance company representative was present and there is no way the Company would tell them there were signs of an alien species the Company encountered and will spare no cost to turn every insured ship in the Company towards said species in an attempt to capture it. Insurance costs would go up.

The Prometheus Mission

The Prometheus mission (source: weylandindustries.com old site) was a joint venture with multiple investors and I can only assume insured for protection of all parties (Weyland, Government, Private). These figures give a glimpse of finance a century earlier from the loss of connection to Hadley's Hope in 2179.

its all a god dam conspiracy I tell u. A DAM CONSPIRACY. Burke explains why there wasn't a large mission sent to the colony to investigate when hes explaining to Ripley why he sent the colonists to explore the grid reference without warning. he doesn't want anyone to know about the xeno as he wants claim of it himself. hes fucking everyone over for a god dam percentage

It most certainly is ali81 and yes Burke was. 

One source claims: '...in the Zeta II Reticuli system...'

The other source claims: '...just outside the Zeta II Reticula system...'

Awesome. :/ 8D

@Ingeniero

Yeah we get some Financial Inconsistencies, this have to be taken as a oversight, as i dont think those working on the movies tried to estimate the inflation costs by the year Alien/Aliens was set in.  Prometheus was more realistic in terms of that. (costs of Technology/Missions).

Nice reference points to the Weyland Viral Site again, and indeed if Weyland Board did not seem or we have to ask why they was not interested in what went to WRONG and WHY no replies from Prometheus, then if 50% of the Mission was split between other investment such as a 50/50 split on the remaining cost (25% Each of the Total) then you have to wonder why the other investors would not want ANSWERS  i.e Government and Private Parties and indeed the Private Parties could be revealed to be created Parties that maybe are Secretly owned by YUTANI?