What Kind of a World!

"Disagree. Adventure - the best aspect of Prometheus."

Certainly was a Thought Provoking Philosophical Adventure for sure, what i meant in my Comment about being Too Adventurous as i feel the Plot was a bit too Grand/Bold and there are fans who would not had expected or wanted to see a ALIEN Franchise movie go off on a Different Tangent that could have steered further from what the Alien Franchise was about.  So i feel some of the Creation Themes, and Philosophy was taking the Franchise Deeper than it needed to go (for me PERSONALLY? thats what i liked about Prometheus, but its a shame that a lot of Prometheus just Did-Not appear to be what some fans wanted), so they maybe should have given us more ALIEN Engineers, who have NO connection with Mankind, and are instead involved in some Galactic War that Time has Long Forgotten.

I really hope they can retain and go back to some of the Grandeur that the Prometheus began.. that Alien Covenant kind of put the LID on...

"It was never been David's Odyssey. It was Shaw's Odyssey."

I think is where its open to Personal Interpretation.. i Personally feel it was something BIGGER than both those Characters, they was there to help be our Anchor Point to explore the Themes at Play...

Some do feel it should have been about Dr Shaw, some are Disappointed she was not a Ripley like Character, but we dont need to have Ripley Clones (we have that with Ripley 8) and Evidence for that is how FORCED the Character of Daniels seemed to be, in a attempt to kind of replicate Ripleys ARC in the First 3 movies into ONE movie.

some think it should had been about Dr Shaw's Questions, and indeed those Questions would have Provided some Answers that would have been interesting, but i feel those Answers would certainly had NOT came anywhere near the GOD/Creators that she was brought up to have Belief in from her Faith.  But i understand some were expecting some revelations more close to her Faith, but i feel she would have found a HORRIFIC Truth that makes her Faith a Sham!

For me Prometheus was about Creation, both in terms of Life but Technology too, it was about what makes someone a God or Godlike, it was about Immortality, but also looking at what makes people Immortalized, and that Does-Not have to mean they LIVE for ever.  It was about Sub-Creation and how this can Empower the Creator with a Godlike Sense of Accomplishment, it was also about the HUBRIS of Creation, and especially if you create a Superior, or Intelligent Creation, and this Creation then gains Freewill and Knowledge, becomes Sentient and Rebels, and if your Creation does this and they can Procreate (Create) then what a THREAT that can be..

Its also about the pursuit of Immortality, Knowledge, wishing to Meet your Makers and the Hubris of this, in the belief that your Creation was for a Purpose and one that your Creator had a Great Importance and Care for their Creation...  then reveal that the reasons for Creation could be MUCH Farther from that Naive Belief.

In David we see this whole Creation/Hubris ARC played out, its like a Repeating Theme of Hubris, in Hindsight Creating David was a mistake and he was NOT Created to be Loved by his Creator... and for the Engineers as far as Creating us, its maybe exactly the same and so we have this Layered Cake of Creation....   and so it was Logical the Next Stage would have been to see it from David and what he would then Create which would be to his HUBRIS and Downfall.

I feel Dr Shaw would have been used to just show her/us that these Engineers are NOTHING like her Bible Teaches and there is NO Benevolent (at times) God of her Faith, and maybe reveal some other Sinister Reason for our Creation.   The Horror when she discovers this would have been our Proxy to the Horrific Truth of Creation.

I ponder it was NO coincidence that the closest thing we saw to a Xenomorph in Prometheus was via Dr Shaw, the Trilobite was in effect a type of Face Hugger, which lead to a Type of Chest Buster (Deacon) and so its NO Surprise to me that she was used to use her Womb/Egg Cells to Create the Xenomorph..  Although i dont think the Original Idea was to have her used to Create the Xenomorph, but certainly i would not be Surprised if after the Revelations, she would be or attempted to be used to Re-Create similar either by David or the Engineers.

But i do think Dr Shaw was not used well, while she would have been better to use as our Proxy to the Horrors she could have Faced... i felt it would have been better for her to had gone through the ORDEAL but be kept Alive... and then Ultimately for her to had Sacrificed Herself... this would have been much more fitting than the Injustice i feel we got in Alien Covenant.    Where her END would have given Great Importance to the Saving of others or indeed MANKIND!

I would have had her AFTER all her Revelations that Proof there was NO Goody Two Shoes GOD....  but at that Moment, before she Sacrifices herself, she clasps her Crucifix and closes her Eyes...  With that One Final Element and Memory in the Knowledge that what she is doing is similar to who she had put her Faith in had done for Mankind...   Sacrifice to Save us!

This is just my Interpretation and so thats not to say i am in any way correct. 

"there is not really much scope to do anything grandiose and interesting in the next installment. Seems like so, but who knows."

I think it could go that route... there is the potential to be Grand but sadly as we are NOW in Prequel Territory where we have to ASSUME we are on that Inevitable March to ALIEN where we have to just connect the DOTS to HOW/WHEN/WHY it is that Davids Xenomorphs get unto a Engineer Ship and HOW/WHEN/WHY was that ship in the Facility of LV-223/426.

And it will be these HOW/WHEN/WHY that i feel a lot of Fans would be expecting to see and anything else or Emphasis on anything that does-not connect to the HOW/WHEN/WHY would be seen as a Distraction.  I feel any 2 Hour Movie that could mix a bit of Alien Covenant and Prometheus but TAKE-OUT anything Alieny (like Hammerpedes, Trilobite, Deacon, Neomorph or Xenomorph and Eggs).  would likely NOT please most fans... or certainly thats how the Studios may see it.

"Now, back to that plot"

Firstly yes Good Point about the lack of knowledge about David by the Covenant Crew, and WHAT the Company knew about LV-223, certainly have to ask WHY in 10 years they never Investigated... maybe they took the Warning for what is is... NOTHING BUT DEATH and so for those who can benefit from Weylands Death.... maybe nothing to GAIN apart from his Death...  surely they would send a Probe or a Synthetic Mission though?

Certainly with Walter, i think we have to ask HOW would the Engineers know David is off to Origae-6 and for me, the only way would be via Walter, or if the Lander Wreckage or Something on any of the Dead Crew has any indication of Origae-6.

I think your Plot makes things more Simple/Direct with little Distraction apart from reaching the Inevitable, while also allowing to explore David Creating something else...

Time Restraints we have to consider a Planet 4 to Origae-6 and then Origae-6 to LV-223 Journey would take up 14-15 years of the 17 years before the Nostromo Crew arrive at LV-426.

But that would leave 2-3 Years for what ever HAPPENS on LV-223 to when the Derelict ends up on LV-426, and so a lot of any Creating of Beings by David could be done during any of that 14 years Traveling on the Covenant.

So this could be a simple PLOT that could take ONE movie that would maybe be a SAFER option, as opposed to a movie that could be a Distraction if its spending years on Origae-6.

Biodegradable:

Obsessive? I am not very happy that they put such a focus on David at the cost of the rest. One of the problems is that there are not many to support but if they would have had some characters to root for then I would write in favor of them (for example “I like this character because of X Y Z”) but there were almost none. David was tolerable in Covenant in the way that think that it was interesting to see the differences between Walter and David but David was too much of an asshole there for me to like him or sympathize with him but he was somewhat interesting. Sure I do not like what the prequels have turned into but it is not like I think about it all the day (about your comment about being obsessive).

I am a fan of the franchise and therefore I do not want more half good and half crap kind of movies - I want them to be good. When someone writes something that I disagree with I tend to answer because that is how I am as a person. It might get repetitive since I do not always remember what I have written in every post that I write so there it is. This is important to keep in mind: I attack the opinion, not the person.

“Yet here you are, kicking BigDave into fetal position over and over."

I say no to ideas that I don’t like but if there are those that I agree with I would say sure. Even though I disagree with things in general there might be parts of what someone say that I agree with. This is not a personal attack on anyone and if it comes across like this then it was never my intention. By the way, I also make sure to say when there are things that I agree with just to not came off as an asshole or extremely negative.

“And it is not like there are many of those to choose from and dismiss this, that or the other.”

I think that we need to see if there are other ideas that we can take into consideration (is that the way to put it?). If something doesn’t work then we have to look for something else, that is my opinion. Some of BD’s opinions are alright while there are other things that I disagree with but that also goes for friends, co-workers, etcetera.

“Have you put out any possible scenario for future follow-up of your own in any considerable details?"

I want more about the black goo, and the Engineers. I can not put this into detail or develop it like maybe some other persons here but I can think about things in general that I want to see and the same goes for things that I say not to.

BD: Yeah maybe a sort of aftermath to what he has created would be better because at least he would not be as dominating in this movie. Eventually we could have like five to ten minutes of him in the movie for those that would like to see him have a bigger role than I would and not be totally reduced.

If the colonists and Oragae-6 could be used in a smart way then yeah why not. Those at the Nostromo discovered a new world so it fits but it has got to be somewhat new to what we have had this far. At the same time I am not afraid that they will not make the surroundings/the planet bad because they have succeeded with that this far but they got to go back and see how the surroundings of the other movies have been and try to make something different or maybe pick from those, I am not sure how that would be.

One thing that I can honestly say in favor if the prequels or a somewhat favor of them is that the ideas are not bad but the execution has been so and so. I am not a huge fan of the idea of Alien five, at least not if they retcon Alien 3 but at the same time I can sort of understand the disappointments that make people support such a project. Sure I am not a huge fan of the prequels although there are things that are interesting but I also think that an Alien 5 would be a bad idea as long as they retcon Alien 3.

Creation, Rebellion and Retribution could be something, I would like to see the Engineers play a role in this in some way. I would like to see something where they have seeded different worlds and how that would play into the story and be if only loosely connected to the SJ if they would risk to mess up the SJ-connection. At the same time I would like something about a nasty company (not necessarily WY) because I like that angle of it. This would have to be something different to WY but still have things in common in how they screw over people.

About David and his creations then yeah maybe but keep him in the background sort of like when he monitored the Xeno on the ship, something like that would be fine by me or how they used Jigsaw in the first Saw-movie. You did not see as lot of him but he was very important to the story although he can be in it like some (like maybe 10) minutes or so based on 2 hours. You mention his Xenomorphs (David’s), sure but make sure to have it as recreations and not that he is the originator because that is lame.
The Engineers should have a role, at least bigger than David so I would like them to be featured in it also. I really like the idea of the Engineers and I feel that they should have bigger screen-time than David and what he has done. Maybe they get to the planet to get rid of David but they get attacked by monsters and they are still mad at humanity so you get humans trapped between Xenos and Engineers that are highly pissed off but you defiantly got to get it better than how they handled the AVP’s. This could be better if they tried to make interesting human characters and also try to get the Engineers right so they would be a threat to the Xenos too. Making a movie like this would not be impossible but they got to struggle to get it right, I would like to see it. You get two old things (the Xenos and struggling humans ) plus something new or at least that we have not seen much of (the Engineers), it could work.

I will now respond to some of your response to Biodegradable.

Yes, I am not totally against having David involved but it is too much about him. Compare this to weak humans characters and too much screen-time to David that is by now totally evil and you get a movie which to me at least is not interesting. Who-ever decided to make David into what he was in Covenant made a bad decision because he was too evil compared to Prometheus where he was better done the way that I look at it. At the same time I am not 100% against the idea to let the androids get more screen-time compared to 1-3 but it is also about their role compared to the rest. Remember that Ash and Bishop had their time but they were better written and the humans were better written too.

“ we also see that most of the things Fans could have looked forwards to had been KILLED off by the Actions of this Psychotic Synthetic.”

Yes, why did they get rid of the Engineers (those that made the movie or those that decided about that)? They were interesting in themselves but they got totally killed just some minutes into the movie. This could be because of some miscalculation of the studio, someone made that decision anyways.

As far as Alien movies are concerned if we by Alien mean the Xeno then sure make something else, I am not against that I even accepted most of the new monsters in Prometheus except for Zombie Fifield but that was not because of the actor I just think that the idea was dumb and the way that the scene was in the movie. I would like P to be more Xeno-ish but that was far from the biggest problem that I have with that movie.

Digging deeper into the SJ world and the company could be interesting if it is getting made well but make sure to make it known that t is in the Alien-world without being a Xeno-movie. There are more things in the Alien-world than Xenos and Ripley, something that I know that you have mentioned and that I agree with. Something that I don’t want is Ripley or Ripley-ties (aunts, uncle, kids, what ever). A franchise like this should not be about a person, it is called Alien not Ripley. I think that we can agree that Ripley has had her time and I am also not that interested to see another queen but having something stranger (look at what Giger did, maybe there could be some inspiration there?).

I think Thoughts_Dreams you have a right to be concerned with a David Franchise, indeed he was a Ass-hole lol

The thing is a Good Ass-Hole is always good... David as a Villain is not bad... but it comes down to something you BRING up a lot.... Good Characters... so when you make a movie about a Villain who is being a Arse-Hole to people... then IF those people that David is being such towards and Characters who we cant connect or have any Empathy for then it all goes to £%&%!

If David killed off Daniels and Tennessee at the End of Alien Covenant or if they are killed by him Off-Screen like what happened to Dr Shaw would masses of people MOAN about their Loss?  Not Really.... so Better Characters could Elevate David as a Bad Guy but you need a Good Guy to become the Main Character instead and this Character is the ONE you have to route for... and who the Hell is that gonna be?

Maybe Walter... but then as Robots... its hard to get Fans to feel about a David vs Walter as the Main Characters... ok maybe a Aliens vs Predators is similar.... but i feel that making the Franchise now more about Androids.. and less about the Xenomorph and Space Jockey really is STEERING to FAR from what was ALIEN about Alien!

some of the Themes are interesting and i can see HOW it is that David fits... but i think these Themes are a bit BOLD for the ALIEN Franchise and are a Distraction for most Fans.

The ALIEN Franchise came across like 40% Ripley, 30% Xenomorph, 15% Other Characters, 10% Company Greed and 5% Mystery.

The Prequels seem to be looking like 40% David's Journey, 20% Xenomorph, 10% Engineers/Space Jockey, 10% Other Characters and 10% Mystery

For both Franchises i feel the Emphasis on David and Ripley is TOO MUCH!  The Franchise should-not and was not about Ripley and should also not be about David.

"try to make something different or maybe pick from those, I am not sure how that would be"

I think thats a Good Point.... looking at your whole last Reply, i think we can agree that when people look at the Alien Franchise, and they see Eggs, Queens and Ripley and YES the Queen/Eggs are very ALIEN the Alien Hive is Very Alien.

But once this has been done to DEATH.... its ok whats NEXT!

And so we are Familiar with Eggs... the First Time we saw the Eggs in ALIEN it was Epic... the whole Cargo Hold all that Technology/Architecture that was very ALIEN.

The other Aspect of ALIEN that was more Alien was the SHIP, and its Pilot...   Very Surreal, Very Alien and EPIC.

I am sure if you asked EVERY Alien Fan say at the time of Alien Resurrection, we are gonna make a Prequel about the Space Jockey Race/Technology and they knew AFTER the First Prequel the 2nd we would get the Movie about a Synthetic and the Space Jockey Race are quickly shown and shown more in context of a Ancient Human Settlement...

I am sure that as of 1998 this kind of idea would be TOTALLY against what seemed so ALIEN about the Derelict and its Pilot.

So yeah... the next movie thats 70% about a World Created by a Android that has NO Aesthetic connecting to the Derelict and HR Giger and that only say has 0-10% Xenomorph and 0-10% Engineer as far as the appearance in Prometheus would surely NOT be how Fans would have Expected a Prequel about the SPACE JOCKEY Race to have turned out.

Too much about David may fit the themes... but it would make the Franchise LESS ALIEN.