Ambiguity Debate - Q4 - Drones & Warriors

@ Craigamore, there where at least a dozen Facehuggers in that laboratory, rewatch the scene, its very clear.

The facehugger is a vehicle from which the true intelligence of the alien is (embryo) guided to it's potential host. Once the embryo is implanted and detached from the facehugger, said facehugger will wither and fall away. staff: Weyland Corp. Advanced Bio-Weapons. Design and Acquisition, Mars base

The facehugger's proboscis has two main functions: keep the victim alive for a few hours by supplying oxygen, and to deliver an unknown agent into the oesophagus. The latter could, for example, be a small burrowing parasite (e.g. a worm) that works its way through the oesophagus wall into the body cavity, where it attaches itself to something nutritious like the liver, and happily grows. Or it could be something small enough that it is absorbed directly into the host's bloodstream, where it subsequently grows and develops in one of the internal organs. Sounds nasty and involved, but there are parasites on Earth with much more complex life cycles.

Wrapping it's tail around the intended hosts neck is also a way to force his or hers mouth open. This is explored further in Aliens with Ripley and the facehugger that's attacking her. As mentioned previously it also renders the host unconscious. The hugger adapts to it's environment, keeps the host alive by feeding it oxygen. Ash makes a note in the novel and in many scripts that Kane's blood is well oxygenated. Once embryo has been implanted inside the chest it removes itself and dies. Everything you need to know really is in the movies. Choking the victim for a period of time can cause memory loss. I've also seen that happen in real life. I watched someone get choked out and when he recovered he had no memory of it. It was intended to take around 24 hours for an embryo implantation. That was the plan originally for Alien and based on the 17 to 25 hours (approx) to make repairs to the 12 module on the Nostromo i believe that was more than likely.

Worms? Internal organs? Oesophagus?

Again, So you would all agree with the following statement for Q2... Upon locating a host the Facehugger coils its long tail, launching itself at the host’s head, gripping with its legs and tightening its tail around the neck; the Facehugger suffocates the host. Upon rendering them unconscious, the Facehugger extends a proboscis into the host’s throat, supplying breathable air and nutrients while implanting its EMBRYO. Once the embryo is securely attached inside the host’s chest cavity, the Facehugger retracts its proboscis and dies.

I agree with that :)

So do i

Q3 now up in OP

In many early concepts and drafts of Alien the Space Jockey was a victim of the facehugger ([i]and the alien itself at once stage[/i]). How is never determined. Why the Jockey was on LV-426, again, never fully determined and many explanations have been given from Dan O' Bannon, Ridley Scott and the crew. In the end it was all simplified and made a mystery. Even past concepts are many and varied although in a previous thread one explanation was given in the Alien Special by Warren publishing. It even goes on to say how the Jockey was infected based on their own speculation, ([i]that part i didn't add in the previous thread[/i]).

Snorkelbottom I believe the sj was facehugged and died from chestbursting. I have no idea however how a facehugger would get from its egg to the sj if nothing triggered it. Prom sEems to indicate that the air in the jugg is not breathable during flight. Why would the engineer in the hypersleep chamber be waring a oxygen mask to breathe. Except if the sj can move around while wearing a biosuit. Then how was he facehugged fully awake wearing a biosuit ? I have no conclusive answer on specifically how and where he was facehugged. Sorry.

[quote]I have no idea however how a facehugger would get from its egg to the sj if nothing triggered it.[/quote] That's the thing. Something did trigger it. How and why, as i said, is never determined. All we know is, as you said, the Jockey was a victim of a facehugger and died from the chestburster.

I would say Facehugger and then Chestbuster. How the egg was disturbed, I don’t know. There is so many possibilities,for example, carelessness from the Jockey, sabotage or suicide mission. Hopefully we will find out from the next films.

In Alien, when Ash looks at the x-ray scan of the facehugger on Kane, there is a sphere (what I assume to be an embryo) moving across the screen into a blood vessel or broncheal tube. Ash notices this, cocks his head slightly, and says to Dallas "Lets not be too hasty". The next scene it goes into the vessel/Broncheal tube to the lungs like a human embryo would through fallopian tubes into the uterus. It's just a theory, based on what the human cycle does for embryo implantation. Ridley uses a lot of things from nature in his work, who knows. I circled the sphere, see how it travels to the tube? [IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/289csw9.png[/IMG] Human embryo 20 hours after fertilisation: [IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/331fwna.jpg[/IMG] Also, you made a mistake Snork. Craigs picture shows the hosts teeth not any facehugger teeth. [i]Er Craigamore, two proboscis' never seen that in the movies, nor any Facehugger teeth for that matter (except cuddles). -SNORKELBOTTOM[/i]

That you have circled isn't an egg. It's fluid.

Would you say the Facehugger came from the Juggernauts cargo and burnt through the hole in the floor by spitting acid to reach the pilot in his chair?

I don't think the facehugger made the whole into the egg silo/hold. I believe he was infected with one of the eggs from below. How, i have no idea. But that's just my own speculation based on comments from Ridley Scott. Again, when the whole Derelict and Space Jockey sequences were revised it was all left a mystery.

How much acid would it take to burn a hole through all that metal ? Remember that that part of the telescopic chair is the support base for the telescopic chair . So it would have to be strong enough to caRry the tel.chair. But it wouldn't be as thick as the rest of the floor would it ? So there must be a hydraulic ram of some kind pushing the chair up. Might the ram be visible in the lower deck where the eggs are- is there a direct line of sight between the moving ram and and the eggs ? An egg sensing the movement of the ram as the telchair emerged from the lower deck might have jumped onto the ram. Maybe more than one. As the ram stopped moving the hugger sensed the atmosphere becoming unbreathable as the ship left the atmosphere. A hugger also breathes doesn't it ? But sensing the heat signature of the engineer its instincts take over And it starts spiTting acid. It gets through the hole and quickly finds a way to penetrate the bio suit. But this theory has few problems. - if the hugger penetrated the suit and got to the sj's face, how did it get air to the sj to keep it alive as it was probably leaking out of the sj helmet ? How would the hugger be able to take air provided by the biosuit and the chair as the lack of atmosphere would cause low air presure and the air supply world leak out as the hugger would have compromised the the suits airtightneSs. Far far very far fetched I know. Otherwise hugging must occured with the sj roaming the ship while in flight But still even if that is the case that a sj could walk about the ship inflight without a biosuit tHen think about this: A grown engineer probably weighes about 350 pounds. It is probably 4 times stronger than a normal man. No way a hugger wil hug it if the sj doesn't want it to. I don't know if this can be solved.

-blink-

Ok, read all and I'm up to speed. Here's my take: I think it's clear that the SJ fell victim to a chestburster; other than that, we KNOW nothing except that there are SEVERAL eggs in the cargo hold. Those eggs APPEAR to be "dormant" until Kane litterally touches one. When he does there is an electrical-sounding charge and the egg he touches begins to stir (the rest is history). Further, I agree (somewhat) with an earlier writer (too lazy to look who; sorry): how does/would the FH get through the SJ's facemask? I.e., Kane's helmet (and Fifield's) get acidized -- but the SJ's appears as pristine as when he put it on; no acid burns; no holes. This INFERS (wink, Snorky) that the SJ fell victim to a FH BEFORE readying for flight (i.e., suiting up). So to answer the posed question: a chestburster caused the SJ's death. The When, "How" & Why can only be speculated upon at this point.

@Snorkel: [i]"Worms? Internal organs? Oesophagus?"[/i] The oesophagus is the tube that leads on from your throat. That's where the facehugger puts its proboscis. It can't lay an embryo there and have it remain there because it would simply grow in size and make it impossible to ingest food, and we know that didn't happen because Kane is able to swallow. Therefore, there has to be a mechanism for it to grow [i]outside[/i] of the oesophagus. The proboscis looks very soft and slippery and IMO would be unlikely to pierce the oesophagus itself, and doesn't appear to do so in the x-rays. The embryonic xeno must attach itself to one or more organs in order to obtain nutrition, otherwise it's not going to grow. It can derive much of its nourishment from blood alone, but something like the liver would provide far more useful material in a short time - efficiency. As to how the embryo starts its life, as I mention, something [i]has[/i] to get from the inside of the oesophagus to the outside. A burrowing worm could do that, and would mirror something that we saw in Holloway's eye. Doesn't have to be, of course; we've never seen it.

The bio suit that comes with the chair is like a living organism itself ? With its own supply of oxygen and nutrients coming from the chair ? Its own electric field ? Might A hugger have made that hole in the tel chair base before it emerged from the ground as it sensed the biosuit? (do you remember in prometheus that the biosuit was allready in thE chair before it emerged from the level below ?) When the sj got in and its arms being held in place by the suit closing in on it the hugger hugged having hid in the un assembled helmet part and as it closed on the sj. No damage to mask or suit. The enginEer unable to move its arms had to wait until the suit completely wraps around him before he could press the button to un suit. Enough time to plant the embryo? The proboscis in all alien films have never once been bitten off by any of the hosts it impregnated as a far as I know. So it must be extremely tough and extremely strong. That would be my first instinct if I got face hugged . That also explains the whole lack of oxygen thing as the ship had not yet taken off. Problems with theory: Why Would the sj take off if it knew impending death ? If it was hugged before even getting in the chair a few minutes before flight then I can ask the same question: why would it take off knowing impending death ? Did it not have radio contact with its homeworld ? Asking for another engineer to come to replace him as he would be dead by the time they arrived. More than likely he would have sacrificed/killed himself to prevent chest bursting in order that the replacing engineer might not have to run into a xeno. Also no medical equipmenT to take the embryo out ? No it was hugged during flight. While the engineer was in cryosleep in the tel chair. And it only had enough time to land the ship crashing it in the proceSs posting a warning. Back to my 1st theory. That does of course leave the theory of a third party on the ship. How was it breathing then? A xeno hiding in the oxygen rich mist until after take off and then spitting acid on the tel chair base from below ? Problem: engineers would have made sure all xenos died before collecting eggs. Back to 1st theory.

[quote][b]No it was hugged during flight. While the engineer was in cryosleep in the tel chair. And it only had enough time to land the ship crashing it in the proceSs posting a warning. Back to my 1st theory.[/b][/quote] Back then the Jockey wasn't a suit nor was it known as an 'Engineer'. Ridley Scott, Ivor Powell and other members of the crew had said that the Derelict was a battle cruiser, that was their take on it, and the eggs were it's cargo. It's posible the Jockey was impregnated during flight, that much i agree with. What we do know for sure is once it landed on LV-426 it broadcast a warning becon. For all we know the warning beacon was aimed at other 'Jockeys' not not for other species. Prometheus really has...well, I'm not going there to be honest.

xeno_alpha_07 - Did Ridley actually say that "the eggs were it's cargo"? As opposed to Vials of black goo? A "high risk" cargo for the Engineer to have on his ship! Sorry just checking as I have not read that interview ...

... if not, one could speculate that the chestburster orginating from the SJ in Alien was a Queen that then laid all the eggs in the Chamber below (creatin the opening) and the cargo of vases / vials was in a dirrent part of the ship. Question is, how did a Xeno egg get on board in the first place ....

@oduodu: [i]"The bio suit that comes with the chair is like a living organism itself? With its own supply of oxygen and nutrients coming from the chair?"[/i] That would fit. Most of the Engineer's technology looks kind of "grown". [i]"When the sj got in and its arms being held in place by the suit closing in on it the hugger hugged having hid in the un assembled helmet part and as it closed on the sj"[/i] That makes sense, too. Problem: [i]"Why Would the sj take off if it knew impending death?"[/i] I can't see that's a problem with your thesis. He was impregnated before the take off could be completed. [i]"Did it not have radio contact with its homeworld?"[/i] We don't know that they have a home world. Personally, I don't imagine that they do. Too advanced for boring stuff like a plain old home world. There are myriad possibilities as to the full nature of Engineer society (if such a thing exists). Looking forward to that in sequels. [i]"Also no medical equipmenT to take the embryo out?"[/i] He would have been paralyzed in seconds. "No it was hugged during flight". I disagree. I think your earlier idea fits better: He was impregnated during the take-off. Maybe the warning beacon triggered automatically.

Eggs or something: [quote][b]Did Ridley actually say that "the eggs were it's cargo"? As opposed to Vials of black goo? A "high risk" cargo for the Engineer to have on his ship! Sorry just checking as I have not read that interview ...[/b][/quote] Here's a quote taken from Ridley Scott during the Alien 20th anniversary DVD commentary: [i]"...in my head was, this was an aircraft Carrier, a battle-wagon of a civilization, and the eggs were a cargo which were essentially weapons. So right, like a large form of bacteriological stroke biomechanoid warfare."[/i]

@ Eggs or Something... Your theory is a common, but misguided one, because you are forgetting one key aspect - the eggs where "covered" with a layer of blue laser-mist. Had the Alien bursting from the Engineer been a Queen, why was there said blue laser-mist in the cargo hold of the ship. Add to that the FACT that Ridley Scott said quite clearly just before the theatrical release of Prometheus that the derelict Engineer craft on LV-426 was carrying a cargo of EGGS, and the pilot fell to his cargo and was forced to land on LV-426. Which brings me to the other theory being thrown around... That the Engineer has Facehugged before or during takeoff, without a conscious pilot the Juggernaut would not have been able to take off, this is a simple logical deduction (winks at Red Wolf), because the Juggernaut would have force-landed on LV-426 when the pilot was unconscious, why else would it have force-landed. From here, IMO, its a simple case of eliminating non-viable possibilities, in line with the facts we know... [b]- Force-landed Juggernaut on LV-426. - Beacon/Signal (warning) being sent every 12 seconds. - Cargo bay full of Xenomorph eggs, covered with a mist. - Acid burnt hole on the platform near the cannon-chair. - Dead Engineer with a hole in his chest - Chestburster.[/b] Working backwards, effect-cause... Engineer died from Chestburster birth. Therefore any actions on his part happened before this instance. Forced-Landing most likely happened while pilot was unconscious. Two ascertainable points this would have occurred is while being Facehugged, or upon death. Juggernaut must have been in standard (non FTL) flight over/near LV-426 before it was forced to land there. FTL speed impact would have likely have destroyed vessel, but why not FTL (mental note). Time from spotting (if at all) of Facehugger would have been short-nonexistent, therefore we can deduce that the beacon/signal was transmitted not before, but after the pilot was Facehugged. Therefore, logic dictates the following chain of events... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot Facehugged and becomes unconscious - Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b] Now the only remaining mystery is how the pilot was Facehugged. Only remaining pieces of evidence are... [b]- Cargo bay full of Xenomorph eggs, covered with a mist. - Acid burnt hole on the platform near the cannon-chair.[/b] Most direct place between two points is a straight line. In this case point A is the cargo bay full of Xenomorph eggs, point B is the pilot. Separating A and B is an acid burnt hole in platform next to the pilots chair. [b]Known FACT - Facehuggers spit acid (as shown with Kanes helmet upon being Facehugged). Known FACT - Facehuggers hatch from eggs not when touched, but when viable hosts are detected in the vicinity (Newt, Ripley, Graeme Miller)[/b]. Pilot being directly above the cargo bay was within reasonable vicinity. Issue - Possibility that during spaceflight the Juggernaut has no atmosphere. Solution - Xenomorphs known to exist within a vacuum with no atmosphere (Alien and Aliens). Therefore, logic dictates the following chain of events... [b]Egg in Cargo bay hatches sensing pilot above - burns hole in platform (most direct route) - Pilot sees this, drops out of FTL - Facehugger assaults pilot triggering aforementioned chain of events.[/b] Only known issue - pilots helmet would have prevented assault, but assault did occur therefore pilots helmet must have been removed regardless of why. Reasons known only by victim for this course of action, one would presume attempt to study, escape, seek means to counteract threat Finally, logic dictates the following chain of events... [b]Egg in Cargo bay hatches sensing pilot above - burns hole in platform (most direct route) - Pilot sees this, drops out of FTL - Pilot removes helmet - Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot Facehugged and becomes unconscious - Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b]

Okay! Some definite progress here !! Oh I agree !!

Snorky, are we really to believe that the SJ voluntarily removes the ONLY item that might save is ARSE when he spots the facehugger -- that being his helmet ( we can deduce that he couldn't have removed it if he never knew the FHer was there)? While it acidicly reached Kane through his helmet's face shield -- and would have most likely done the same to the SJ, it's simply inconceivable that the SJ sees the FHer and then removes his helmet so it can hug his face (I suppose it's POSSIBLE that that helmet was his favorite one and that he promised to give it to a friend or relative when he retired, and so he wanted to keep it in good condition -- but there's no real evidence that's the case) -- only to replace it after the FHer has orally raped him. Further, while the FHers have exited their egg when a potential host is "nearby" (I think the eggs in the Jugg's cargo hold needed to be "touched" for a variety of reasons), I'm loath to call a SJ at least -- what, 50 feet and a ceiling/floor above them -- as "nearby." I watched the SJ scene in Alien last night on Youtube (in HD) and I gotta say that I did not see any "acid-burnt hole" to the SJ's right -- but even more, it appeared to me that the SJ himself had an elongated nose bone rather than was wearing a helmet like shown in Prometheus. In fact, his head appeared to be a skull. IF SO, then there was no helmet to remove/replace -- and John Merrick has some lofty competition! So... I'm not sure you're going to achieve a consensus about all the parameters surrounding the SJ's story. HOWEVER, your posed question was how the SJ died; in that regard I believe we'd all agree he died via chestbursting.