Ambiguity Debate - Q4 - Drones & Warriors

@Red Wolf We don't know what activated the egg that impregnated the Space Jockey. What we know for sure is 'something did'. Regarding the Jockey's 'Helmet'. Well, this is where Prometheus messes things up. It wasn't a suit or a helmet in the first film. So this causes a new type of confliction between both films and the Jockey's race itself. [img]http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/3915/spacejockeycloseup.jpg[/img] I know what Snorkelbottom means about the Acid hole leading to the egg chamber. However, it's meant to be the opening to a shaft into the cargo hold. It just looks like it was burnt through so to speak.

@ Red Wolf... Regardless of the why it is clear that the Engineer removed his helmet or possibly even left the chair altogether, otherwise he would have not been facehugged, and because there was no damage to his helmet we can eliminate the possibility of the Facehugger burning through it. Thus no helmet/suit is the only possibility. As mentioned in my previous post the most direct path between the eggs and Engineer pilot is through the platform, and because of the acid burnt hole in the platform, deduction and logic dictates that the hole was the point of ingress. The acid burnt hole is clear for all to see, it is the same hole of which Kane descends down into the egg chamber, and upon Kane first discovering the hole we, the audience are shown that it has the same texture as the hole caused by the Facehuggers blood when Dallas and Ash attempt to cut off one of its fingers. If you cannot see that in the HD YouTube version, may I suggest purchasing the film on DVD/Blu-Ray. Furthermore, this hole IS in front and to the right of the dead Engineers position. The Engineer in Alien is not the Skeletal remains of large, long dead creature - Ridley Scott clarified that before the theatrical release of Prometheus, clearly stating that it was an individual within a suit, just as in Prometheus. I know some will mention the size difference, but recall that the size difference depends upon which part of the scene you are referring to - the distant shots used Ridleys Scotts own children in smaller suits to give the impression of a 12-15 feet tall dead Engineer, but the close up shots of Dallas looking at the Chestburster wound shows the scale of the Engineer to be closer to 7-10 feet tall, which matches what we see in Prometheus.

@ Snorkelbottom - Also it is worth pointing out that Dallas mentions that the Alien life form is fossilised and stuck to the chair (I don't remember the exact words) which would indicate that it would be hard to distinguish what is what (engineer bone or space material). In your opinion, would I be right in assuming that this event happened much earlier than the Engineers attempt of leaving for earth in Prometheus dated 2000 years old?

@ eggs or something - rather than get into that whole debate, may I suggest doing a search for the word "fossil". Because a fossil, it wasn't.

Yes I know what a fossil is..... I'm using the word as verb which is in the script - quote: - alien life form, its been dead a long time, fossilised, looks like its grown out of the chair - to make a point about its age.

Eggs or something... you misread my meaning, i meant search the other threads on this site. Because if you truly know what a fossil is then you'll know that the dead Engineers suit in Alien was NOT fossilized.

Absolutely.... I'm sure Tom Skerritt does as well.

Obviously not... I suggest you read [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/1105]This Thread Here[/url].

First off, I agree with the answer to Q2....I was just playing devil's advocate for the sake of it... I almost totally agree with Snorky's chain of events for Q3. My one issue is the how and when of the SpaceJockey being impregnated. There seems to be no visible evidence, as Snorky said, of the Jockey being facehugged with his helmet on. I agree with the other member that it seems unlikely he would remove his helmet to take a look around. Ultimately, here's what I think happened in regards to this specific point, (otherwise, I am in total agreement with Snorkelbottom),.....I believe the facehug occurred at some point before he entered the chair to begin with. Now, there's no telling exactly how or when, but I suggest this as there is no evidence of a dead facehugger anywhere near that platform in Alien. It seems most logical to me that while the Jockey is in flight and and the destination is set, he is in stasis, just as we are over such distances. We even see evidence of long term stasis in Prometheus, so.....I think it happened at some point earlier in the journey or after the Ship was forced to land. In either case, I believe the facehug and impregnation took place away from the central pilot's chamber. Otherwise, I totally agree with Snork. It's just that it seems odd he would remove his only protection if he KNEW that something in the cargo was disturbed. Eureka moment........Snork's chain of events totally jives if the following is true....1) The ship lands for mechanical reasons or comes out of FTL for mechanical reasons and the egg is disturbed in the process. 2) He is unaware of the disturbed egg and is facehugged at some point during his investigation of the problem. Ultimately, I think there had to be some issue with the ship itself, otherwise, he would have put himself in stasis and at least continued with the hope of medical help. I am about post Snork's chain of events with a few alterations that make a bit more sense to me personally: Ship comes out of FTL due to mechanical issues and is forced to land on LV-426 - Egg in Cargo bay is disturbed in the proces and hatches, sensing pilot above - burns hole in platform (most direct route) - Pilot removes helmet to investigate mechanical issue with ship - Pilot Facehugged and becomes unconscious - Pilot awakens, realizes predicament, inability to leave and transmits signal/beacon to warn others - Chestburster born. I think that works better.....

OK, the more I read the more I believe we truly need to know exactly WHAT the beacon warning says. For AT MOST we have a SJ that knows he's been facehugged -- which means AT MOST we have one xeno -- which AT MOST = 1 more egg (a la Dallas/Bret); then again, there are thousands of eggs in the hold, so why worry about one more??? I agree that the "hole" Kane drops down thru is simply a "doorway" to/from the hold area; no acid-based erosion of the ship (besides, in every film there IS acid-based erosion of a ship, it occurs "downward"). So does the beacon warning warn of an alien, a queen or the eggs? If The Company learned of the "specimen" thru the warning, it could warn of either. Since it seems we've established how the SJ died (i.e., via chestburster), I suggest Snorky move along to Q4.

@ Craigamore... I agree with idea of the Juggernaut leaving FTL being a catalyst of events, so hows this.... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay hatches sensing pilot above - burns hole in platform (most direct route) - Pilot enters chair - Pilot Facehugged before helmet attached and becomes unconscious - Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b] @ Red Wolf... Its obvious the Engineer died from a Chestburster, but a universally agreed upon ascertainable chain of events leading up to his death and establishing cause - effect. Therefore it would make sense to get the best answer to the question as opposed to the easiest answer. Also, if a facehugger crawled up the walls of the egg chamber and spat acid at the ceiling above it, the melting acid would melt downward due to gravity. Despite the fact that the acid may have been sprayed from below the acid erosion would still have occurred downward. Here is an image of the acid burnt hole in the derelict... [IMG]http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/snorkelbottom/acidholederelictALIEN.jpg[/IMG] ...and for comparison here is the acid burnt hole shown later in the Nostromo... [IMG]http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac89/snorkelbottom/acidholenostromoALIEN.jpg[/IMG]

I like it Snorkelbottom....I tend to think there probably was a mechanical issue for it all to fit, but, ultimately, it really doesn't matter as long as we establish that he was forced out of FTL (for some reason) and forced to land on LV-426 during, just prior to or after his fachugging event. The exact when of that facehugging point is not knowable for certain in any educated guess as to the series of events, but, based on the logic we've agreed upon thus far, it isn't necessary to established a specific placement in that series other than to say that the drop from FTL or the landing on the planet triggered/disturbed the egg and the facehug event occured as early as somewhere between the drop out of FTL and shortly after the landing. The exact cause of the landing on LV-426, be it ship malfunctions or the facehugging, is not certain, but we can establish a certainty of the facehug event taking place between the drop and the warning issue, which took place after the landing....and I think we should frame it that way to be as honest as well as accurate in what we do know as we can.

I gotta say.....I LOVE THIS BACKWARDS ENGINEERED ARCHEOLOGICAL DISCOVERY OF EVENTS.......IT'S BLOODY BRILLIANT MATES..............

Nice pics, Snorky. I now know why I said I've never noticed the burn hole before: because it appears to be an accessway rather than an acidicly-induced hole. That is, not only does its size make one wonder just how much acid a FHer can produce (I mean, JEEZE! it must've taken gallons!), it also makes one wonder how the SJ would not have noticed it being formed. Further, how/why would the FHer cut a SQUARE hole that conforms to the metal "borders" directly above it? It seems clear that whatever/whoever created that hole created it from ABOVE (i.e., the bridge of the Jugg). Lastly, if a FHer spat enough acid to create that hole, at least some of that acid would have dripped back down, into the egg cargo hold. In fact, I'd submit that a prudent man could estimate quite a bit of acid doing so -- enough to eat through the hold/hull, which would cause all SORTS of problems/issues. Again, it is mho that the totality of the circumstances undermines the "FHer got loose" theory -- at least how you have portrayed it. The only part of ANY Alien franchise film where a FHer is seen "wandering about" is in AvP when a hugger actually gets a Predator. Other than that one scene -- ONE SCENE covering SIX films -- eggs only open up if/when a host is in close proximity. Again, ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE; I just don't believe there's sufficient evidence -- especially now seeing the size & dimensions of that huge hole -- to give your thesis my vote. And frankly, like so many aspects of this franchise, there simply may not be enough FACTS to support a conclusive answer to all questions.

Red Wolf.......Ridley Scott has said in interviews and commentaries that something, we don't know what exactly, disturbed one of the eggs........He has never said that anything related to proximity occured in reference to the events on the derelict. We're going by what Ridley said on the vague details and doing our best to establish as much of the truth as we can....that's all..... This being said, Ridley established this idea and we're running with it..... Here's qoute from Ridley's commentary on Alien's 20th Anniversary DVD: "But clearly from here, this is where the transmission would emanate from, probably in an automatic transmission, so this creature had obviously experienced maybe one of the eggs had been disturbed and a creature had got out, had attacked the rest of the crew, don't ask me where they got to, but he's pretty gruesome..." qoute taken from [url=http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/2011/10/20th-anniversary-dvd-commentary-edited.html]20th anniversary DVD Ridley Scott commentary[/url].

@ Red Wolf... I have to ask, why does it seem that you are playing devils advocate constantly, I am just asking because in all of your recent posts all I see is the constant questioning of posts, usually mine, and never any actual proposed theories or speculation. To your queries... The image of the acid burn was caused by a single small squirt of acid, which was able to eat through two thick layers of hull. So if the Facehugger spat acid at the hole shown in a wide arc it is viable that the hole shown from the derelict was made. You can clearly see in both images that they have the same texture, thus were both caused by the same cause. As to the square-ish (the hole matches the segregated ring pattern of the platform, therefore is not actually square) nature of the hole, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn is that the surrounded metal must be of a different composition, and somewhat (there is scarring) immune to the Facehuggers acid. Also, it was clearly shown, twice, in Alien 3 that Facehuggers would hunt down viable hosts and use their acidic spit to gain access to said hosts.

Thanks for posting pics snorkelbottom. Craigamore I love this as well !!! I'm just so impatient to find out what the other questions are !!!! AND Where the hell are all the other 11000 fans ?????? As In where the hell is the army guys ? Theyre dead. Are you guys dead that aren't participating - dead ? Lol Well this is you're chance to argue. If you don't use it and come back later and say : I don't agree with that. It will be to late then.

OK, perhaps I'm being too stringent, but I see the following terms/phrases in your response and the quote you provided: "we don't know what exactly" "probably" "maybe" "don't ask me where they got to" I'm sorry, but we will spin our minds SILLY if we continue to utilize the above as having enough rigidity to actually BUILD something upon. Toss in reports on this very site that RS, Lindy & Co. have said different/conflicting things and we're left with mush. That is why I am attempting to get to the meat-n-batatas of things using ONLY what's ON FILM. So, what can we garner that IS on film to answer the posed question by Snorky? I submit, unfortunately, not much. Don't get me wrong; Snorky's theory(ies) may indeed be true. From autopilots to automated beacon warnings to FHers spitting perfectly square holes from underneath that conform with the raised metal borders above it -- they may all be true. But if we don't rely more heavily on what we know to be fact (i.e., what's on film), then we're reversing the meal. For it's not known as Batatas-n-Meat. Let's use what's on film as the Meat-n-Batatas and things RS/Lindy/FOX execs have said as the salt-n-pepper.

Is it possible that one of the eggs was placed elsewhere on the derelict (not seen by Nostromo crew) and not in the cargo hold (like a sabotage from one of the Engineers). When Kane descends in the chamber I don't recall seeing an "open egg" (although arguably there were alot of them so may not have been obvious to Kane) unless it had subsequently closed empty without a FH inside ... possibly the one Kane knocks accidently when he slips from the platform in the egg chamber... that egg does not seem to be "awakened / triggered" ...Just an idea... However, this does not explain the opening in the derelict hull.

@ Red Wolf... There are the following... - Known facts - eg. Engineer in Alien died from a chestburster. - Ascertainable Facts - eg. Engineer was facehugged. - Speculation - eg. Engineer gave birth to a Queen. - Idiocy - eg. Engineer was killed by a Predator. Known facts appear in the movies and Ascertainable facts are deduced using logic and known facts. These two can be used in conjunction to logically deduce the facts. Speculation and Idiocy only confuse the matter. If the Engineer died from a chestburster, we apply that he therefore got facehugged, once we ascertain the most viably possible point at which that event occurred, we can then look to other known and ascertainable facts - the only known source of the facehuggers is egg chamber, seperating the two is an acid burnt hole in the platform. [center][i]"once all possibilities have been eliminated, the only remaining possibility, no matter how improbable leads to the truth."[/i][/center] Sherlock Holmes.

So in working only with what on sEe on film what did lambert mean by " what happened to the rest of the crew " . What made her think their were other crew members other then the sj ?

Couldn't agree more with you, Snorky (how's THAT for a shock?)! "Known facts appear in the movies and Ascertainable facts are deduced using logic and known facts. These two can be used in conjunction to logically deduce the facts. Speculation and Idiocy only confuse the matter." But therein, as they say, lies "the rub." For example, YOU assert that the approx 3' x 3' or 4' x 4' opening that leads to the Jugg cargo hold was produced by an acid-spitting FHer that inexplicably "got loose". I on the otherhand, have debunked that theory on a number of levels (i.e., size, amount of acid required & likely damage below from acid) yet you apparently are intent to cling to the FHer-burnt-hole aspect. Which is why & when we turn to WHAT'S ON FILM. And the hole's existence is the ONLY thing that's on film! No dead FHer nearby; no comments like "I wonder where the rest of the crew is -- OH LOOK! A hole that appears to have been 'burnt' upwards, as if by acid from the cargo hold below..." from Lambert -- nothing, except the above statement from RS that is riddled with more non-qualifiers in the typical defense attorney closing statement. Auto-pilot features? Automated beacon warnings regarding the dangers of xenos that begin when what -- SJ's appear to be away from the Canon Chair for more than a few minutes (hope the SJ never overslept or took a long dump)? Again, I am not trying to be difficult. I'm simply attempting to move forward by building a foundation that will FACTUALLY support a reasonable, prudent conclusion. I'm afraid we're nothing more than dogs chasing their tails when it comes to explaining the circumstances surrounding the SJ's death.

I have to agree with Red Wolf on this one. I always went on the assumption that the Chestbuster burnt the hole in the ground leading to the egg chamber. Something just doesn’t seem right about a Facehugger burning a hole upwards.

Personally, I think the fact the hole comports to/with the raised metal framing above it is a clear sign the FHer did not make it. Then there's the sheer size of it! The FHer would only need a hole the size of a football. So unless that FHer had some of Bob Vila's DNA, I think there's definitely another story behind that hole...

@ red wolf... When a chemical comes into contact with another substance the effect isn't always universal - therefore whose to say that a lot of acid was required to melt said panel. Why all the mention of "melting upwards", if the facehugger spat on the panel from underneath the panel would melt normally - as in downward, just the reaction would start from underneath and work its way up through and across the panel. What we have is a cargo bay full of eggs, the ships cargo, a pilot dead from a chestburster and between the two an acid burnt hole. Because there is no evidence of an alien going down, but evidence of a facehugger going up - the pilots death, but with no evidence of a facehugger either my last, amended chain of events remains the only viable possibility with the known facts and ascertainable facts... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay hatches sensing pilot above - burns hole in platform (most direct route) - Pilot enters chair - Pilot Facehugged before helmet attached and becomes unconscious - Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b]

Q3 - What caused the death of the Engineer seen inside the derelict Juggernaut in Alien? Everybody agrees it died from chestbursting. That means we have a universally accepted answer. Shouldn't we move to Q4 ?

I'm with Snorky on this one. Based on what we have from the film and the director's comments, there is a logical series of events here, as Snorky has laid it out. The acid burned hole leading directly to the egg chamber is a clear path between the two. Now, thinking about all of this, I have an idea that may help explain it's size. First off, I think it entirely logical that the facehugger, having found a weak point there, could have sprayed acid and wormed its way through a small hole. Second, once the birth occured, a much larger drone, seeing the hole (being, I think we can all agree, very intelligent) chose to burn a larger hole in order to find what would be a natural hiding place for it considering what we know about their behavior. Now, ultimately, we're splitting hairs here. We know, because of Ridley Scott, that an egg was disturbed. We know it impregnated the Jockey. We know some form of this animal burned its way through that hole, out of or into the eggchamber or both. Just as I said earlier about there being no certain way to determine when he was facehugged other than to say it was sometime after coming out of FTL and before the signal was sent, with the landing being somewhere in between, the same goes in this case. As to the burned hole, it's one of those three options I mentioned and I think we should frame the whole series as follows: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot forced, for whatever reason (mechanical or otherwise), to drop out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay, having been "disturbed", hatches, then sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426 - burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after or both - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. I really do think this is the best description of what we can ascertain for certain based on film and interview evidence....what do we think here? Is it good enough for a final answer?

Snorky & craigamore: Ridley's interview had more non-qualifiers than Hitler's attorney at Nuremberg! It just doesn't jibe, men! The shape of the hole (square, rectangle, what have you), the size of the opening (my God, man! you could fit a refridgerator through that hole); no dead FHer nearby (I mean, why not leave the little bugger RIGHT THERE where he belongs?). And that bit about the framed ridge above the hole being a different composite? C'MON! That acid goes thru everything it touches. You're better than this, Dudes. As for me never offering my own ideas as to how things happened or played out, well... I just don't have enough tools to get the job done. Could I come up with some zany idea? Of course. But I'd rather work with what I have than play pretend. But just to show you I can, here's MY take on the SJ: * Back some 2k years ago (circa 100 B.C.) LV-223's domes or temples contained xeno eggs. * As their science moved solely toward the goo urn, the Engineers began offloading the eggs to various sites around the universe, juuuuuuuuuuuuuust in case the last remaining female Engineer ever spoke again. * During that lengthy endeavor, an Engineer would occasionally get lazy, trigger an egg and pay the ultimate price by being facehugged. * As luck would have it, the very last load of eggs had its Engineer fall victim. After the FHer fell off of him, that Engineer was immedaitely sent away on a pseudo-kamakazi mission -- warp speed. * Knowing that he didn't have long, a warning beacon was begun at lift off. * A tune reminiscent of Jethro Tull's Bouree` was played on their little flute, setting the Jugg to utilize its auto-pilot if the Engineer did not manually maneuver the ship in some way every 3 minutes (wink to Snorks); auto-pilot would identify the nearest planet to land on, since the Engineers had a strict anti-suicide belief. There the SJ would meet its inevitable, gruesome fate, strapped in the Pilot's Chair. * Unfortunately, xeno embryos thrive on Engineer innerds and he only got as far as LV-426, three planets east of 223. * The resulting xeno wandered the ship and 426 for a few days, but after finding no host, it perished (moment of silence...........................................). * Dead SJ and the corpse of a xeno somewhere in the tundra of LV-426 decayed for 2 millenia -- until the Nostromo arrived. NOTES: * The "hole" near the SJ is actually an ingress/egress tunnel to the cargo hold; nothing more (the Engineer carpenter's union guy called in sick that day and they let the apprentice cut the hole). * Lambert was just a whining biotch who had to always say SOMETHING to validate herself; her "Wonder where the crew is" comment made Dallas and Kane roll their eyes at each other, but was off camera. There you have it, Snorks. No FHer "got loose;" no FHer to find on Jugg floor; RS's interview was the product of a not-so-well-organized (ex-) agent who never advised Scott that he had a 9:00 AM interview after a night of carousing and countless adult beverages. And I humbly submit my story is as viable as yours.

@ Red Wolf... There in lies the issue with your argument... "No FHer got loose" For the Engineer to have died died from a chestburster, he had to had been facehugged, and the only source of facehuggers was the cargo bay of the vessel, ergo simple logic that a small child can understand dictates that contrary to your statement a FHer did indeed get loose.

Snorks, Perhaps you mised or skipped over part of my thesis (a common mistake small children make when learning to read), but I answered the question about when/how/why the SJ got facehugged: he inadvertently triggered the egg while loading the Jugg with eggs for transport. So yes, he WAS facehugged; he just WASN'T facehugged while in space. Stated another way: he was facehugged on LV-223 and sent on his way when the FHer completed its mission. On to Q 4...