Ambiguity Debate - Q4 - Drones & Warriors

Snorkelbottom Are we working only with what we see on film or are we working with what ridley says or are we working with both ?

The film, unless Ridleys comments support what is in the films IMO. Because regardless of anybodies statements relating to other crew members, we only see evidence of one.

Please simplify If the film says the apple Is green And ridley says the apple is red What do we accept as the truth ?

oduodu... A pointless exercise, but to play devils advocate the answer would be green.

Snorkelbottom So on what evidence seen in alien do we accept the pilot was hugged during flight ?

@ oduodu... run through the following chain of events looking at the evidence seen in the movie, combined with the facts we know about the species... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Disturbed Egg in Cargo bay hatches, sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged -Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b]

Snorkelbottom Please specify the evidence as seen in alien.

Oduodu... The evidence as seen in Alien and its sequels, and AVP if you care too but expect to scorned if you do so.

snorkelbottom Please specify any evidence (on film of course) from any of the alien - avp - prometheus Films that the sj was hugged during flight. Just one example - please.

@ oduodu... The evidence is laid out in mine and others previous posts in this thread.

Why don't [b]YOU[/b] provide us with some evidence Red Wolf . You watch the movies, do some reading and research instead of trying to provote others. Let's see what you come up with. I already know the answer to your 'cocky' remarks. I'll be waiting to see what you come up with.

Snorkelbottom Yes sir !! Good to hear from you !! Point me to one piece of evidence (based on what we see in the alien universe films) in any of your posts that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that the sj was hugged during flight.

oduodu and Snorky....what it comes down to, based on both film evidence and Ridley's comments (I believe both are valid) is that at some point during the journey, an egg was disturbed. We know that much, therefor, it follows that an event caused the disturbing to take place. This event, given consideration, can only be guessed at, but there are two valid, acceptable causes that we know occurred in the chain of events and thus, one or the other is the likely cause of the egg being disturbed. Now, I just went through all that because the answer as to when the facehugging occurred is incumbent on one of those two confirmed events and they are as follows: 1) The ship is forced out of FTL for unkown reasons. 2) The ship is forced to land for an unknown reason. These are the only confirmed events that we as observers can connect with the affirmed "disturbing" of the egg; therefor, we posit a connection. One of these two events led to the facehugger birth and from there we know two possible answers as to when the facehugging occurred; either before or after the landing. It is IMPOSSIBLE to know exactly when. I personally prefer after the landing because it allows for either event to be the cause of the egg's disturbance. The drop from FTL could have caused the egg to to open and the facehugger could have only gotten to the pilot after the landing. Ulitmately, what we all must admit here is that there are only a handful of certainties here and I think we have to state our final opinion so as to reflect both what we do know and what we don't know. We don't know that the facehugging occurred in flight or after the landing, we just don't know. We do know that it occurred after an egg was disturbed, which has two likely causes, and before the signal was sent...period. We do not know what stage of the lifecycle caused the burns in the floor or when. We do that at least one stage in the lifecycle did cause those burns....period. We do not know what cuased the ship to drop from FTL or what forced it to land on LV-426. We do know that these events led to the pilot's death as one of them distrubed an egg. We do know they occured as we know the ship was forced to land, because it was there, and we know that it was forced out of FTL, becuase it had to in order to land. We know they occurred as it is certain there was an event that disturbed an egg, which led to the clear evidence in our dead pilot. The logic there is a bit circular, but the idea stands; each point necessitates the others and vice versa. An egg was disturbed by an event - said event was either what forced the ship to drop from FTL, What forced it to land or was either the drop or landing themselves - which necessitates the existance of cause for the ship to have dropped from FTL and to land in the first place......see how that works? I've amended the series again: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 is forced for unkown reason to drop out of FTL and land on LV-426 - At some point in the interim, an egg is disturbed in the Cargo bay, hatching and sensing the pilot above who is then facehugged - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. With the exception of mentioning the burn, which I don't believe is necessary here, that series accomplishes our task without claiming speculations. It is all fact now. We can argue til the cows come home about the other details which seems likely or probable or whatever. That series accurately states what we know as well as what we don't. As for the exact time the facehugging occurred, none of us will ever know unless Ridley tells us point blank or some lost notesof O'Bannon's are discovered; point being that we know the time frame - At some point in the interim, an egg is disturbed in the Cargo bay, hatching and sensing the pilot above who is then facehugged - which is after the drop from FTL and before the beacon was set...period. I think we can and should move on now. I think we've exhausted this one.

@ craigamore... Although I agree with the point that we should move on to the next question the amendments you have made to the chain of events are ambiguous and thus non-factual thus I will post the following answer (which is the only known course of events) in the OP before posing the next question... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL - Egg hatches, sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged -Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b]

From Jamescamerononline: [quote][b]The Alien in the first movie wasn't a full adult yet - the individual in ALIEN never reached maturity. In time his head would get ridges and would transform into a fully adult creature that we see in 'Aliens'. The young alien of the first movie looked pretty much the same as the adult underneath the dome. Aliens are "born" with a smooth head, and this cover falls off after a while, exposing the ridges. Supporting this thesis, the chestburster in "Aliens" had a smooth head.[/b][/quote] James Cameron: [quote][b]The Alien in the first film had only been alive for 24 hours. It was still an infant, even thought it’d grown full size. (...) The Alien head in the first film was very smooth. The top of the head was very smooth. Underneath it had a skull shape and a ribbed design and originally it was designed to see that through that kind of transparent surface in the Giger design. I thought that what was underneath the surface was more interesting than the final look[/b][/quote]

Snorkelbottom I agree with craigamore's take on it. Engineers cannot walk around in a jugg without a biosuit while it is in space as there is no breathable atmosphere hence no facehugging possible. I agree that facehugging could not have occurred preflight. I am still in the dark as to what is considered evidence in this thread. On a more personal note I would like to apologise if I have offended anyone in any way and ask anyone who feels I have not kept to forum rules to please indicate such. I would like to indicate that I do not in any way consider myself an expert in any matter regarding the alien universe. I am a novice at best. That is why this thread is so important to me because this thread will also provide for other people who know like me knows very little about the alien universe. That is why the concept of evidence and the burden of proof is so important to me as this will allow us to make a distinction beween facts and statements based on deductive logic which hasnt been proven beyond any doubt as it relates to what we see in the filmsm Finally I submit Two questions : As at this moment there is a part of the OP that reads: "Once we have, or do not have, an universally accepted answer for the last question (which will be posted underneath the question), we will move onto a new question, and so on..." Was the answer you posted for Q3 the universally accepted answer in this thread ? What will you post when there is no universally accepted answer ? As to Q4. I plead novice !!! Thanks for a great thread. Hows that AVP script coming !!! Best wishes Oduodu

On the subject of the shaft leading to the egg silo: http://alienexplorations.blogspot.com/2008/01/dissecting-derelict-peering-into-silo.html "We wonder how the silo is part of the derelict, with an open shaft right next to the jockey's seat. In the design of the actual platform, there is a shaft entrance on both sides, but it was not to be seen this way in the film. There are no solid answers, we can only just about peer into the silo entrance and glimpse something to understand about the way the entrance is formed, in contrast to what we might have seen in an earlier script describing it as an acid eaten hole, but the shaft entrance has four corners and then some planks at the side seem to be warped a little, and one wonders if this is just part of the ships design. However the reasons for various things change beyond explanation because of the budget cuts." So... there are possibly two such openings- and if this design was intentional, then acid burns didn't create the hole, only deface it. Another visual element supporting the design theory is that above each row in the egg chamber, there is an opening to a shaft leading upward- the same shaft that Kane was lowered into. This brings me to this possible scenario: * The Derelict takes off, with a single pilot, on a bombing mission to some enemy world. The Pilot is fused with the chair, since it is essentially a part of the ship itself: "The creature we finally ended up building is biomechanical to the extent that he has physically grown into, or maybe even out of, his seat, - he's integrated totally into the function he performs."- Giger * In one of the egg rows, the blue laser mechanism fails, releasing one or more face huggers. * One or more face huggers make it up the shaft leading to the telescope room, the Pilot uses a weapon to kill it; the resulting acid spray defaces and warps the silo entrance. * Another face hugger overcomes the Pilot and he gets hugged. * Coming to, he realizes his ultimate fate and sets up the warning beacon. * The chest burster emerges; notice the Pilot's face, it's mouth agape as if it was screaming. One possible flaw: the hugging process gives the host amnesia- so how did he know he was doomed and thus decide to initiate the warning beacon?

Oh yeah another possible flaw- if the Pilot used a weapon to kill/injure an attacking FH, then where is the weapon? It should be laying near his body...

@XA07... Although what Cameron says for the idea of the ridged head drones in Aliens makes sense when looking only at Aliens, it doe's go against what is almost universally believed for Alien - that the creatures allegedly have a short life expentancy, withe the Warrior in Alien supposedly, and according to Ridley Scott, climbing into the crevice in the Narcissus to die.

@Snork Yep. And you'd be correct. However, it's the only answer we have regarding the Dome & Ridge question. The real reason, or one of few reasons, for the removal of the dome for Cameron's creatures was that Cameron was concerned that the domes would get damaged due to the creatures movements in Aliens as they were more active and so on. So, not only did he not want to spend time replaceing domes but he found the head a lot more interesting without the domes with the ridges exposed. Domes were made for one or two of the creature suits. But Cameron asked for them to be removed. Cameron wanted the suit simplified and concentrated on the creatures movements. More stunt work was required so naturally the dome would have gotten damaged during stunt shots.