Ambiguity Debate - Q4 - Drones & Warriors

So in working only with what on sEe on film what did lambert mean by " what happened to the rest of the crew " . What made her think their were other crew members other then the sj ?

Couldn't agree more with you, Snorky (how's THAT for a shock?)! "Known facts appear in the movies and Ascertainable facts are deduced using logic and known facts. These two can be used in conjunction to logically deduce the facts. Speculation and Idiocy only confuse the matter." But therein, as they say, lies "the rub." For example, YOU assert that the approx 3' x 3' or 4' x 4' opening that leads to the Jugg cargo hold was produced by an acid-spitting FHer that inexplicably "got loose". I on the otherhand, have debunked that theory on a number of levels (i.e., size, amount of acid required & likely damage below from acid) yet you apparently are intent to cling to the FHer-burnt-hole aspect. Which is why & when we turn to WHAT'S ON FILM. And the hole's existence is the ONLY thing that's on film! No dead FHer nearby; no comments like "I wonder where the rest of the crew is -- OH LOOK! A hole that appears to have been 'burnt' upwards, as if by acid from the cargo hold below..." from Lambert -- nothing, except the above statement from RS that is riddled with more non-qualifiers in the typical defense attorney closing statement. Auto-pilot features? Automated beacon warnings regarding the dangers of xenos that begin when what -- SJ's appear to be away from the Canon Chair for more than a few minutes (hope the SJ never overslept or took a long dump)? Again, I am not trying to be difficult. I'm simply attempting to move forward by building a foundation that will FACTUALLY support a reasonable, prudent conclusion. I'm afraid we're nothing more than dogs chasing their tails when it comes to explaining the circumstances surrounding the SJ's death.

I have to agree with Red Wolf on this one. I always went on the assumption that the Chestbuster burnt the hole in the ground leading to the egg chamber. Something just doesn’t seem right about a Facehugger burning a hole upwards.

Personally, I think the fact the hole comports to/with the raised metal framing above it is a clear sign the FHer did not make it. Then there's the sheer size of it! The FHer would only need a hole the size of a football. So unless that FHer had some of Bob Vila's DNA, I think there's definitely another story behind that hole...

@ red wolf... When a chemical comes into contact with another substance the effect isn't always universal - therefore whose to say that a lot of acid was required to melt said panel. Why all the mention of "melting upwards", if the facehugger spat on the panel from underneath the panel would melt normally - as in downward, just the reaction would start from underneath and work its way up through and across the panel. What we have is a cargo bay full of eggs, the ships cargo, a pilot dead from a chestburster and between the two an acid burnt hole. Because there is no evidence of an alien going down, but evidence of a facehugger going up - the pilots death, but with no evidence of a facehugger either my last, amended chain of events remains the only viable possibility with the known facts and ascertainable facts... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay hatches sensing pilot above - burns hole in platform (most direct route) - Pilot enters chair - Pilot Facehugged before helmet attached and becomes unconscious - Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b]

Q3 - What caused the death of the Engineer seen inside the derelict Juggernaut in Alien? Everybody agrees it died from chestbursting. That means we have a universally accepted answer. Shouldn't we move to Q4 ?

I'm with Snorky on this one. Based on what we have from the film and the director's comments, there is a logical series of events here, as Snorky has laid it out. The acid burned hole leading directly to the egg chamber is a clear path between the two. Now, thinking about all of this, I have an idea that may help explain it's size. First off, I think it entirely logical that the facehugger, having found a weak point there, could have sprayed acid and wormed its way through a small hole. Second, once the birth occured, a much larger drone, seeing the hole (being, I think we can all agree, very intelligent) chose to burn a larger hole in order to find what would be a natural hiding place for it considering what we know about their behavior. Now, ultimately, we're splitting hairs here. We know, because of Ridley Scott, that an egg was disturbed. We know it impregnated the Jockey. We know some form of this animal burned its way through that hole, out of or into the eggchamber or both. Just as I said earlier about there being no certain way to determine when he was facehugged other than to say it was sometime after coming out of FTL and before the signal was sent, with the landing being somewhere in between, the same goes in this case. As to the burned hole, it's one of those three options I mentioned and I think we should frame the whole series as follows: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot forced, for whatever reason (mechanical or otherwise), to drop out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay, having been "disturbed", hatches, then sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426 - burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after or both - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. I really do think this is the best description of what we can ascertain for certain based on film and interview evidence....what do we think here? Is it good enough for a final answer?

Snorky & craigamore: Ridley's interview had more non-qualifiers than Hitler's attorney at Nuremberg! It just doesn't jibe, men! The shape of the hole (square, rectangle, what have you), the size of the opening (my God, man! you could fit a refridgerator through that hole); no dead FHer nearby (I mean, why not leave the little bugger RIGHT THERE where he belongs?). And that bit about the framed ridge above the hole being a different composite? C'MON! That acid goes thru everything it touches. You're better than this, Dudes. As for me never offering my own ideas as to how things happened or played out, well... I just don't have enough tools to get the job done. Could I come up with some zany idea? Of course. But I'd rather work with what I have than play pretend. But just to show you I can, here's MY take on the SJ: * Back some 2k years ago (circa 100 B.C.) LV-223's domes or temples contained xeno eggs. * As their science moved solely toward the goo urn, the Engineers began offloading the eggs to various sites around the universe, juuuuuuuuuuuuuust in case the last remaining female Engineer ever spoke again. * During that lengthy endeavor, an Engineer would occasionally get lazy, trigger an egg and pay the ultimate price by being facehugged. * As luck would have it, the very last load of eggs had its Engineer fall victim. After the FHer fell off of him, that Engineer was immedaitely sent away on a pseudo-kamakazi mission -- warp speed. * Knowing that he didn't have long, a warning beacon was begun at lift off. * A tune reminiscent of Jethro Tull's Bouree` was played on their little flute, setting the Jugg to utilize its auto-pilot if the Engineer did not manually maneuver the ship in some way every 3 minutes (wink to Snorks); auto-pilot would identify the nearest planet to land on, since the Engineers had a strict anti-suicide belief. There the SJ would meet its inevitable, gruesome fate, strapped in the Pilot's Chair. * Unfortunately, xeno embryos thrive on Engineer innerds and he only got as far as LV-426, three planets east of 223. * The resulting xeno wandered the ship and 426 for a few days, but after finding no host, it perished (moment of silence...........................................). * Dead SJ and the corpse of a xeno somewhere in the tundra of LV-426 decayed for 2 millenia -- until the Nostromo arrived. NOTES: * The "hole" near the SJ is actually an ingress/egress tunnel to the cargo hold; nothing more (the Engineer carpenter's union guy called in sick that day and they let the apprentice cut the hole). * Lambert was just a whining biotch who had to always say SOMETHING to validate herself; her "Wonder where the crew is" comment made Dallas and Kane roll their eyes at each other, but was off camera. There you have it, Snorks. No FHer "got loose;" no FHer to find on Jugg floor; RS's interview was the product of a not-so-well-organized (ex-) agent who never advised Scott that he had a 9:00 AM interview after a night of carousing and countless adult beverages. And I humbly submit my story is as viable as yours.

@ Red Wolf... There in lies the issue with your argument... "No FHer got loose" For the Engineer to have died died from a chestburster, he had to had been facehugged, and the only source of facehuggers was the cargo bay of the vessel, ergo simple logic that a small child can understand dictates that contrary to your statement a FHer did indeed get loose.

Snorks, Perhaps you mised or skipped over part of my thesis (a common mistake small children make when learning to read), but I answered the question about when/how/why the SJ got facehugged: he inadvertently triggered the egg while loading the Jugg with eggs for transport. So yes, he WAS facehugged; he just WASN'T facehugged while in space. Stated another way: he was facehugged on LV-223 and sent on his way when the FHer completed its mission. On to Q 4...

@ Red Wolf... Firstly, [i]"a common mistake small children make when learning to read"[/i] ..is yet another needless insult, this is a debate, personal insults, no matter the intention behind them are not necessary nor constructive in a debate. Again, it seems I must direct you to the [url=http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/2594]Forum Rules[/url], which also includes a code of conduct which i suggest you read thoroughly, before continuing to post in these forums. Secondly, your arguments, as ambiguous in nature as they are seem to engineered to derail threads, an action I have seen in your posts both in this and other threads created by other members. Thirdly, you have called holes in many peoples logic, when it seems as though your own logic is limited at best... [i]Stated another way: he was facehugged on LV-223 and sent on his way when the FHer completed its mission.[/i] ...1) There is absolutely no evidence that the Juggernaut seen in Alien had ever been to LV-223, 2) There were no facehuggers on LV-223, and 3) LV426 is 2 light years away from LV-223, not 3 planets east. Finally, what we are trying to do here, as I have already stated, is to ascertain to best possible answer for each question, not the easiest. After thoroughly reading the forum rules and rules of conduct may to can help the rest of us reach that goal, instead of derailing the thread.

Wow! I respond to your OBVIOUS shot at me/my thesis (i.e., "...ergo simple logic that a small child can understand...") and I'M castigated!?!? I must have missed the part in the rules where Staff are exempted from them. Regarding your points, however: 1. The Jugg left from SOMEWHERE with eggs in its cargo hold. There is just as much "evidence" that a FHer got loose, ascended to the bridge via spitting acid that formed a nearly symetrical, square hole with dimensions the Trilobite could easily fit through, facehugged the SJ, fell off his face (though there's no sign of it on the bridge) and that the SJ then threw the switch to an ostensibly pre-recorded beacon warning and that an auto-pilot feature of the Jugg kicked-in which landed them all on LV-426. Agreed? 2. There was more than one temple/dome on LV-223. Since the Engineers appear to have used eggs rather than urns back in the SJ's day, there is no evidence to debunk my theory that those domes once held eggs. Agreed? 3. While 426 and 223 may be separated by 2 LYs, I'm not in possession of any map that indicates there are more than 2 planets between each. Are you? Lastly, allow me to assert one more theory: Though my points -- and certainly my humor -- may be "biting" at times, I hardly believe they are of a "felonious" nature requiring chides, rebukes or discipline. I submit that I have touched a nerve by debunking your theory (as others have in this thread). Of course, I have no "proof" of this; it's -- wait for it ---------------------------- what I choose to believe.

Red Wolf, Again with the "touching a nerve issue", a point you raised in another thread. This is not a competition of egos. This is a debate to find the fullest and best answer to each question posed. You have not debunked my theory, if anything you have strengthened it, as evidenced by the posts of the members that are actively contributing to this thread. My last post was verbal warning in my position as staff, and featured no personal insults, but your insults have been, more than once, aimed at me and other members in this and other threads. Rather than be a constructive part of this thread, you seem to pick apart at mine, and other members theories and ascertations with needless and pointless arguments that only serve to derail this and other threads from the topic at hand. Because of your need to publicly denounce the posts of members, and because of your need to needlessly insult said members. I will state this clearly and pubicly, change your attitude and behavior in this and other threads, become a constructive addition to debates or else further action will be taken. You are on the line with myself and other members of staff, it is up to you to either heed the warning or cross that line - your choice. Now, can we please get back to the topic in hand and reach the best answer possible to Q3 in the OP, thanks.

Now that we're back on track, I'll post Snorky's series with my alterations again because I really do think it best describes the most honest series of events: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot forced, for whatever reason (mechanical or otherwise), to drop out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay, having been "disturbed", hatches, then sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426 - burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after chestbusrter or both - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. Now......to address some of the issues we keep going back and forth on, I will say the following..... 1) As to when he was facehugged, Ridley made it very clear in the text from his dvd commentary; an egg was disturbed at some point during the journey...i.e....after departure.....we know that much for sure as the incubation period is so very short...the exact when IS in question to a point, but, based on the little we can surmise, it DID happen; thus we should state it in vague terms as to accurately state what we cannot pinpoint for sure and state is as follows..."Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426." ....Here's the qoute again from Ridley's commentary on Alien's 20th Anniversary DVD to make the point that we DO know an egg was disturbed: "But clearly from here, this is where the transmission would emanate from [the pilot's chamber], probably in an automatic transmission, so this creature had obviously experienced maybe one of the eggs had been disturbed and a creature had got out, had attacked the rest of the crew, don't ask me where they got to, but he's pretty gruesome..." 2) Based on evrything we've seen throughout the films, that hole is clearly burnt through to the eggchamber. Now, again, the exact when, and from which stage of the alien's lifecycle, is not determinable. It just isn't. As I've laid out the series, we have a clear set of possibilities, among which, one of them is true. It is impossible based on our limited information to know, for certain, which it is, thus we should state it as such..."burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after chestburster or both." We can logically state that one or more stages of the alien, facehugger and or drone, burned that hole. That point is certifiable; exactly which and when is not, thus it should be written as vaguely as I wrote it. 3) As to where the facehugging happened and whether or not a facehugger was in the pilot's chamber, we cannot say for sure and thus, should not attempt to. All that matters is that we know it did happen somewhere on board the ship. Now, the hole in the pilot's chest along with the knowledge of the egg chamber, the burnt hole between the chambers and Ridley's "disturbed" comment is all evidence enough to state the simple FACT that a facehugging occured as follows..."Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426." I really think we've laid it out as best we can, given what we know and I will repeat the series again that I think best and most honestly answers the question: Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot forced, for whatever reason (mechanical or otherwise), to drop out of FTL, leaves chair - Egg in Cargo bay, having been "disturbed", hatches, then sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged sometime after ship drops from FTL and either before or after it is forced to land on LV-426 - burnt hole in platform (most direct route) takes place either before facehugging, after chestburster or both - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born. Now...dow we accept this or not?

@ Craigamore... Amended for simplicity... [b]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Disturbed Egg in Cargo bay hatches, sensing pilot above - Pilot is facehugged -Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born.[/b] Either, and, or is speculation. because there is no there other known ascertainable for the Juggernaut before forced to land on LV-426, and given the nature and chain of events we can deduce that the act of being facehugged, and the pilots resulting unconsciousness is the only deductible reason. Although the chain of events is the best neutral answer I think we can collectively come to, I will add that personally I see the chain of events as more fully played as thus (which explains the lack of an Alien and Facehugger corpse)... [i]Juggernaut in flight over/near LV-426 - Pilot drops out of FTL, leaves chair - Disturbed Egg in Cargo bay hatches, sensing pilot above - [b]Facehugger burns through platform and seeks refuge atop the "cannon" apparatus - Pilot re-enters seat and is facehugged before helmet seals[/b] - Juggernaut forced to land on LV-426 - Pilot awakens and transmits signal/beacon - Chestburster born - [b]Alien searches fin arm of derelict (never explored) - Alien placed in stasis by Juggernauts systems.[/b][/i]

Snorkelbottom I like it !! Why does the pilot need to get out of his chair ?? Ridley says he doesn't know what happened to the other crew members-so I suspect they might have had to do maintenance on the ship periodically - inspections if you will and got hugged - all of them. Their hyper sleep chambers were on the lower deck. Knowing they had little time they woke the pilot to in form him of the situation. The pilot realised keeping them on ice until the chestbursters can be removed is the best course of action. He returns to the pilot chair and gets hugged. Realising he cannot wake any crew member to replace him he decides to land on the closest planet he can find. Lv 426. In the moments before chestburting he is bareley able to land the jugg. The automatic warning is triggered and the rest of the crew is chestbursted as the power supply to their hypesleep chambers fail. All xenos die eventually.

@ oduodu Because there was no damage to the helmet, thus he was outside of the suit when he was facehugged. We saw no hypersleep pods, and the lower deck was the egg chamber - thus we assume he was lone pilot.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THE SJ WAS FLYING AT FTL????? for all that we know - wich is NOTHING ABOUT THAT - the Sj could simply be floating around at 2mph... edit: ah, you corrected the answer.

Snorkelbottom Greetings !!! Live long and prosper !!!! Take me t........sorry !!! LOL !! If he was outside his suit he could have gotten hugged just as the suit closed around him. What did ridley mean by other crew members- what did happen to the other crew members ? They were attacked according to ridley. Was that maybe what caused the pilot to get out of his chair? If they were attacked after he disturbed the eggs and went back to his chair they would have informed him after regaining consciousness after being facehugged knewing impending death.

@ oduodu - no evidence in film of other crew members, only one.