Shaw, Cuddles, Engineer and Weyland are the biggest parts of the movies plot
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Indy John
MemberOvomorphDec-28-2012 12:22 PM"..Shaw, Cuddles, Engineer and Weyland are the biggest parts of the movies plot."
I came a cross a thread from May/2011 that included the title of this thread/ the words above.
Does anyone still see this group 4 items as the most important.
Actually what would your 4 story elements that you feel are most important?
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life
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javablue
MemberOvomorphDec-31-2012 12:42 PMMate so do you quote alchemy when doing research in chemistry? More than likely no. So please don't bring deleted scenes into the discussion - they are deleted because Scott didn't want them in his final product and have no bearing on the movie.
In Prometheus, when David asks Holloway what his objective is he clearly says, "I want to meet our makers." Should we ignore this for a deleted scene?
He also complains to Shaw about wanting to talk to the engineers and wanting to know "why they abandoned us" - or why hast thou forsaken us. Don't get more religious than that.
And when he asks Shaw to remove the cross, he doesn't say, "remove your cross", he says "remove [b]your father's[/b] cross." He knows why she wears it.
Notice in the Scotland cave - he reverently removes his hat when he sees the engineer painting. He is the only one that mentions god in the movie, he is the only one to mention Christmas (apart from Janek) and it is he who calls Shaw "a skeptic". He doesn't even realise what a thesis is - because it's not a scientific theory for him - it's a belief.
Shaw, on the other hand, never mentions god or says or does anything religious. I've already logically explained why the cross is important to Shaw and backed it up with her feelings towards Holloway's ring.
And if you still haven't explained where the engineers fit in with the Christian doctrine. Basic to Christianity is the belief god created the universe and sent his only begotten to die for our sins. Change either of these two things then you're not a Christian.
In this movie, Shaw is the scientist and is prepared to persist in her search; Holloway is the believer and wants to take the easy way - to talk to the gods and get revealed knowledge - revelation. This is not the way humans acquire knowledge about our world. That is why Charlie is given the name Holloway - because revelation is the hollow way (for knowledge about our world). And that is why Shaw is linked to Ellie [b]Arroway[/b], the female scientist from [i]Contact[/i].
nostromo001
MemberOvomorphDec-31-2012 4:24 AMIndy, I think Holloway accidently touched upon a sore spot in Elisabeth by mentioning that anyone could create life, refering to the Engineers and implying that God would not be nessessary. Keep in mind if you happened to watch the extra file about Charley Holloway when asked what he hoped to accomplish said he hoped to destroy all religions by proving the existence of the panspermia theory,i.e, that life here was seeded from extraterrestrial sources, in this case through the Engineers. Watch that extra scene that was supposed to have been taped before the Prometheus left earth. Shaw in that file says "We need to find you and we are coming". Check them out if you haven't yet. The point here is that Charley Holloway is an atheist while Shaw was a Christian and believer in God. I know you said that her wearing a crucifix does not necessarily make her a Christian and that she may just be wearing it due to its importance as a gift from her late father, but there are too many Christian references in the film to ignore all of them. Its an Occam's razor situation, where the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Typically when one wears a crucifix, the symbol of Christ overcoming death by crucifixion (in the Roman Catholic tradition, the cross has a Jesus dying on it), or in the case of the Protestants, it is the symbol of the risen Christ and their crosses don't display a Jesus dying on it. So the case for Elisabeth Shaw not being a Christian is pretty weak. Anyway back to the scene, after Charley realizes how Elisabeth took his statement personally, he apologies all over the place and then tells her how special she was to him. For all his obnoxious traits, the one thing you can say positive about him was that he was truly and totally in love with Elisabeth Shaw and she was with him too so they never were emotionally apart like you suggest, they only had a difference of opinion. Charley as I have said elsewhere had unrealistic expectations as he expressed to David at the pool table. Having not found any Engineers alive to talk to, he started drinking and expressed his bitterness about it, but never doubt his feelings toward Elisabeth Shaw or visa versa. All couples suffer differences of opinion and even of feelings periodically but the time frame of this movie once they were all out of cryostatis was far too short for them to really fall apart as a couple. OK enough said.
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Redhead Ripley
MemberOvomorphDec-29-2012 12:16 AMThe most important is I think David (our "soulless" creation in a human point of view). Next Shaw's belief of engineers and what happens after we die. And the symbolism of dark/evil/Wayland/selfishness vs purity/Shaw/selfsacrifise for others.
Why should David be soulless? We are the creation of engineers and we also believe that we have a soul....
I have a pretty good idea of where it is. It's just down there, in the basement....
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Indy John
MemberOvomorphDec-29-2012 2:45 AMFor me the main story elements would include.
*David and his priorities
*Shaw determination broken down to where she sees a renewed mission to seek out the Engineers World.
*Goo.. the complete storyline needs to be exposed
*xenos are they really the ultimate creation afraid of no one..
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life
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DenzelTH
MemberOvomorphDec-29-2012 7:30 AMThe most important things would be the Engineers, and the whole point of why they created us then wanted to destroy. Always wondering what David is holding back. The goo needs to be explained and the connections of the Engineers and Xenos fully exposed. In Paradise Iwant it to flashback and actually show what happened on LV226.
\\\" I Want To Go Where They Come From\\\"
nostromo001
MemberOvomorphDec-29-2012 2:57 PMIf I had to choose 4 eliments that are the main focus of Prometheus, I would choose 1)_David - he is seen by himself wandering around the ship before anyone else even wakes up from cryosleep performing his duties, and after they do wake up he plays the most significant role in causing all the trouble that ensues.
2) Shaw and all the drama that unfolds around her including her loss of Holloway, the abortion via the Pauli Med Pod and her ultimate survival, retreval of David and search for Parasise, the homeword of the Engineers.
3)Vickers and her crucial role in destroying Holloway after David infected him, and her romantic tryst with Janek.
4) Weyland and how he stowed away on the Prometheus and took over command at the end only to lead them to ruin. If he had not insisted on waking up the last sleeping Engineer none of the final drama would have taken place and they would have simply all gone home on the Prometheus.
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Indy John
MemberOvomorphDec-29-2012 4:09 PM".. Shaw and all the drama that unfolds around her including her loss of Holloway.."
@nostromo001
Your list got me to thinking about a few situations in a different manner.
Loss of Holloway I am assuming you refer to loss in the firery scene.
To me she had a real loss when Holloway was in the room while experiments were done on the decapitated head. Her look when Charlie just got down off the table and walked out of the room tells quite bit.
To Shaw this was quite a find. And then he just leaves her.
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life
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Major Noob
MemberOvomorphDec-29-2012 5:10 PM1) Weyland, because his motives drove the undercurrent of wrongness throughout the film including David's behavior and I think the key misunderstandings on the part of the disappointed audience.
2) David, he was the hero and the villain and the most complex and compelling character in the Alien saga.
3) The Goo, there's more to learn and it's apparent power has the potential to spawn all kinds of surreal nastiness in the future.
4) The Engineers, again there's more to learn and their story, if explored, will be fascinating and possibly a huge source of satisfaction for the disappointed.
nostromo001
MemberOvomorphDec-30-2012 2:31 AMIndy, Holloway did come back to her and remember how agreeable he was when Shaw told him she has proof that we came from them and showed him the DNA overlay. He grinned and said,"OK,OK", and then toying with her said "Well I guess you can get rid of that thing (the cross)." etc leading up to him telling her she was the most special person in the whole universe and he loved her, at which point they made love. That is hardy emotionally leaving her. He only was disappointed because he wanted to talk to the Engineers. His love for Elisabeth Shaw never wavered. I was definitely referring to his infection and subsequent destruction by Vickers. Its funny that scene with Vickers parallels Ripley in Alien except she took immediate and extreme measures, while Ripley never expected Ash to countermand her orders as acting senior officer by opening the hatch thereby letting the alien in the ship. As cruel as Vickers may have seemed, in actuality she was totally correct. The Pauli Med Pod would not have been sufficient to remove a genetic mutagen from Holloway's body without killing him. He would have turned into another killing mutant like Fifield.
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Ghosty
Veteran MemberMemberOvomorphDec-30-2012 4:39 AMI would type it all out, but Indy literally has all I had to say.
+1 for Indy :)
At the first light of this Unrelenting Dawn, all will see the world for it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s entirety, not just it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s shadows.
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DenzelTH
MemberOvomorphDec-30-2012 5:34 AMI dont think Holloway would've turned into a zombie. His body was breaking down like the Engineers at the start, so he would've just fallen apart, but then if u touched his remains, it would change you then. I do agree with IJ that Holloway was not very supportive of Shaw, made more of an effort to piss David off.
\\\" I Want To Go Where They Come From\\\"
nostromo001
MemberOvomorphDec-30-2012 6:01 AMGhosty, I'm glad that you see eye to eye with indy john. He and I have had many friendly disagreements as well as agreements (actually more agreements) but here I am surprised that people seem to have disregarded that whole reel where Holloway entered Shaw's cabin with a rose and wound up making love to her after straightening out their disagreement. What do you make of that. Holloway was disappointed only that he didn't find living Engineers to ask the big questions he wanted to ask them. He was never disappointed with Elisabeth Shaw and as I said above told her that she was the most special person he had ever known. This was the second version of that interaction filmed by Ridley Scott. The alternative version shows them having a showdown that becomes violent with Shaw slapping Holloway twice after he smarted off to her about her deceased father. Then they had make up sex. The scene didn't play out well though so Ridley selected the nicer one and I agree with him. RS often shot multiple takes displaying opposite attitudes by the characters just so he could make a final decision about which version played the best. Holloway did act like a pompous jerk throughout the movie especially toward David which no doubt governed David's choice for his guinea pig experiment with the black goo, and he drank too much alcohol after his disappointment with finding what he referred to as just another tomb, but while he was a bit of a belligerent drunk, he really wasn't all that unsupportive of Shaw once he got over his initial disappointment and she showed him the DNA results. So now anybody who disagrees with my post I would really like to hear a full explanation.
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Indy John
MemberOvomorphDec-30-2012 9:02 AM I don't know if the extrea scenes would help or hurt the understanding of the Shaw/Holloway relationship but tey seem to give a perspective I had not known.
They were together up to the analyzing the decapitated head. He walks out.
THen Holloway brings a flower to her when she is watching the Running engineers. So clearly she has not lost faith is searching her Creators
His flower presentation struck me as being a peace offerring for having hurt her by not being by her side as the matching DNA was discovered.
Now she was truly glad he was with her and she shared the matching DNA results.
Then when Holloway said she could remove her cross . And then added about anyone can create life. I think that was the deepest division between our two scientists/lovers.
The deleted scenes show some of that (from what you say) but in the end there are a few sheets tossed around.
From that point on the two were inseperatable. Shaw shows nothing but love/support/concern aboput Charlie as he goes through changes.
And in the firely scene that follows Shaw shows outstanding passion for Charlie and wants him to be with her.
So there is a sort of ebb and flow to their relationship with a couple of Holloway's action that made deep cuts in Shaws soul.
My problem is that the time after the flower presentation to the creation of the alien seemed way too fast. Heck, Shaw must have been an emotional Yo-Yo after he suggested that anyone can create life and she responds by saying she can't.
Perhaps since it is a SciFi movie anything might happen. In my experience a lady that deeply hurt might forgive..but would never forget.
There must be more to this part of the story. But is it really important to it's understanding? Hopefully we find out in a future episode.
BTW what ever happenned to Holloway's Spacesuit/Body lying on the ramp?
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life
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Ghosty
Veteran MemberMemberOvomorphDec-30-2012 7:00 PM^ They probably disposed of it. :)
At the first light of this Unrelenting Dawn, all will see the world for it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s entirety, not just it\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s shadows.
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Indy John
MemberOvomorphJan-01-2013 9:39 PMYou make a good case that Holloway is the true believer and Shaw is the Scientist. Just the reversal to what i wass led to believe or at least assume.
This make the scene where Shaw /Holloway talk with Vickers as to why they were there.
As I recall Vickers said Weyland wanted a true believer on this mission. In your thinking she was referring to Holloway not, as i ssumed, Shaw.
Be choicelessly aware as you move through life
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javablue
MemberOvomorphJan-05-2013 12:38 AMBoth Holloway and Shaw are true believers in the hunch they have about the engineers making us. I don't think Weyland or Vickers care about the religious convictions they may or may not have (Vickers doesn't even know what a Xmas tree is).
The difference is in how they deal with their belief. Shaw is not shaken by the fact that the jockeys are mortal, have human DNA and appear to be all dead. Although her science is still dodgy, she uses scientific technology to carry out tests on the jockey and forms a hypothesis about what may have killed the jockeys (even tho they've only found one jockey at this stage - who knows where the others are).
Holloway, on the other hand, uses more religious language and actions and is disappointed to the point of not caring about the greatest archeological discovery ever. In fact, Holloway does not indulge in any scientific activities at all. Ok he was seen holding an archeological sifter at the Scotland site (which probably never happened) and he says spectrograph once - but that's it.
This is complete contrast to the widely held view that Shaw is the religious believer (Christian) and Holloway the scientist/atheist.
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