After some thought I have decided to reverse my opinion regarding eggs transform

[quote]Look what happened when the two alien eggs showed up on the Sulaco. [/quote] We only ever see one. [quote]I think all the andriods in th alien series are sinster including bishop. just because he said what he said doesnt mean its true. He did say to ripley at 1 stage that specimens have to be returned to company labs fr further analysis. just because ripley told him to destroy them doesnt necessarily mean he will or has too. all the andriods have secertive motives,i thinks it progammed into them.[/quote] There's not a shred of evidence to support Bishop having an ulterior motive. He always open with Ripley - one example as you've just pointed out. Cameron played on Ripley and the audience's suspicion of Bishop based on Ash right up to the point where he disappears in the dropship. And yet he stick around and rescues them. Saying there's something up with Bishop is simply ignoring the facts. [quote]But you must admit that the hole in the floor is square and not really consistent with a typical xeno hemorrhage. but i admit that it does look melted.[/quote] Simple answer is that a square of the floor was made out of material that was less resistant to acid than the area surrounding that square.

I think the Bishop thing is particularly important. He may have known about the eggs and wanted to do something to actually warn her or save her, although he couldn't move afterwards & thought about it logically. Not that he did anything, but thought what the company would do to her/with the eggs/if she got infected; or if some more did get loose, and tried to play it cool. What you don't know can't hurt you. He realized she stood a better chance if she didn't approach the eggs and try to find them. She might try to minimize the risk and then accidentally contaminate herself. I'm not saying I think he put them there, I'm saying he figured "what she didn't know couldn't hurt her". That somehow they had got there but he didn't put them there. He hoped he could get them back to the company and keep her alive and unknowing about his good and evil mission. He was neutral because he still has some sort of drive from the company to acquire the Alien, but not let harm come to her... Unfortunately the fire or whatever activates the eggs. Females are more risk aversive by nature. It's a proven fact and wired in our genetic/evolutionary history...This is why it's important that Vickers and the queen like to minimize risk. It's psychological and based on evolution, even neuroscience. And the male would run around impregnating/morphing everything to its will... helping to spread colonies/hives with the young Queens.

WE did see a xeno sneak-up on the first drop-ship, while Bishop was piloting the second drop-ship at some point could a grunt/warrior xeno have snuck aboard with two eggs? The drop-ship returns to the mother-ship and the Queen thus reveals herself. One idea, just tying up the two eggs for Alien 3 cunundrum.

I want to consider that if the cargo was 'people' or 'sacraficial lambs' over a time converted into the eggs it could play like a similar plot thread as Aliens did, capturing the entire colony and moving them down to the atmosphere processors for parasite infestation. Note the idea that the Hadleys Hope colony was taken 'down' into the atmospheric processors, it would make for a compelling paralell story/plot thread that entire numbers, thousands by all accounts of what Kane saw down in the Derilicts hold and by Ripley's interation of his so-called words during her 'trail-by-judgement' from her superiors: "Kane who went into that ship said he saw thousands of eggs there, THOUSANDS!' This would make for keeping the story similar without retreading old ground. We only saw a glimpse of the cocooning process with regards to Brett and Dallas much as we only really saw a glimpse of the Derilict Space Jockey just sitting there for an age for all we know. Yet Ridley Scott felt it compelling to explore and expand upon the Engineers as a people and a species and a race, so too I would like to see him and producers to expand upon and explore the coconing procedures bridging both this with the egg-laying concepts so that both concepts converge and thus connect.

Ok, From what everyone is saying, and keeping to the point of this thread, I have drawn the following conclusions /summary Engineers go to Earth, one of them dies and could have affected human DNA development, Who knows? Engineers abduct humans also because they need eggs. Did something from ones of these eggs get loose ( something we have ‘nt seen yet). This something infects Engineer. Engineer runs away, but ends up decapitated. Shaw tests Engineer and finds a DNA match. So because how eggs can be formed , there is the possibility that the Engineers do not really share our DNA, What we see was the by-product of an infection. If I have missed someone or something along the way, apologies.

The third option of Snorkelbottom about the Derelict eggs seems the most plausible : collecting the remainings eggs of an infected "X" planet by the black goo. Eggmorphed beings we saw up to now are somehow attached on a wall by alien-glue rather than lying on the floor. Not to mention the blue myst covering the eggs which is certainly done by the Engineers.

If a face-hugger infects a female host, do you then get a Queen? Could it be that simple?

@ Wormhole Urn I agree that Snorkelbottoms' option would appear to be the most plausible. What I am wondering is how much you would need to tweek that option if Planet 'X' was actually earth.

Planet X was probably very similar to Earth, and possibly may even have had human beings, if the engineers had seeded human life there as they did on Earth using the method shown at the start of Prometheus. Earth was meant as the next planet to be urn'ed after X, as shown in the Orerry scene in Prometheus, but the outbreak saved our skin.

[i][quote]WE did see a xeno sneak-up on the first drop-ship, while Bishop was piloting the second drop-ship at some point could a grunt/warrior xeno have snuck aboard with two eggs? The drop-ship returns to the mother-ship and the Queen thus reveals herself. One idea, just tying up the two eggs for Alien 3 cunundrum.[/quote][/i] If an adult Alien snuck aboard - why didn't it stick around like the original Alien did? And if it did stick around, why didn't it help the Queen? It could've dealt with Ripley and Newt much better than the Queen did. And there's still only one egg.

Prometheus suggest that eggs came from this specie : [img]http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u364/PrimitifAlien/AvP%20galaxy/Elbowthornmini_zps2d688dbe.jpg[/img] which lays eggs : [img]http://i1064.photobucket.com/albums/u364/PrimitifAlien/AvP%20galaxy/Elbowthornegg_zps4f3195ac.jpg [/img] Take a look at it. There are similiarities with the xenomorphs. Give this specie black goo and eventually it will lay eggs with a facehugger inside. Maybe they are also created by Engineers. If Earth had been urned, then there would be Trilobites and Deacons all over the place instead of Xenomorphs. [quote][b]If a face-hugger infects a female host, do you then get a Queen?[/b] [b]Could it be that simple?[[/b]/quote] No idea ! I don't think it's that simple though. It may depend on the egg.

Call's were a bit broader.

@ThatSM; Well Call is a different case alltogether as she was an auton created by other robots. It's hard to say what was installed in her. Regardless, it's all very fun to discuss. :) Here is a great site to find information about androids of the Alien universe: [url=http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/Synthetic]Androids of the Alien Universe explained[/url]

Call seems to have a higher reasoning power. She knew smashing Wren in the face wouldn't actually harm him, and is willing to kill a few if it means protecting humanity as whole. As for Xenopedia - no thanks.

Also, remember Milburn and Fifeild found a huge pile of Engineers with holes in their chests suggesting a chestburster scenario. [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/25jv51h.jpg[/IMG]

Call and Bishop are the only androids that I liked because they helped humanity instead of trying to decieve us. Ash and David are just two creepy a@# robots and I dont like Ash because he's just machine that goes nuts.

I don't think you're meant to like Ash.

Since the validity of the androids have been raised with particular attention being paid to Bishops 'loyalties', in pa rticular to his human counterparts I wonder why it has not been raised that perhaps and android was present and active during the Hadleys Hope exposure to the alien and have perhaps had been there for several months, years even, analyzing, inspecting, collating information and thus, relaying that back to the Company executives.

Could very well have been an android at Hadley. But the colony was cut off even before they could send a distress signal, so no one is relaying anything anywhere. Before that, it would've been mundane day to day stuff that would've been covered in the weekly reports of Simpson and his predeccesors. It would also depend if the android was Company property or ICC property (as Bishop was).

@Cerulean Blue "If a face-hugger infects a female host, do you then get a Queen? Could it be that simple?" It could be but it wouldn't be that simple for males, you have to consider the male side of humans. They will always have a x and a y chromosome. So even if a normal human male is infected it will still normally produce a queen. But Shaw and the Engineer each had a lack of certain properly functioning genes along the x chromosome that the alien looks for to switch to this more effective, safer mode of creating life. I think what Vickers says about a king having a reign and then dying means that thematically if the king enters the story they are usually killed by the Queen's rise to power and made obsolete like males in preying mantises or spiders. I like the idea that hypernova put forth that the eggs in the cargo of the derelict are victims or a collection of the things that were morphed. I think what the Engineers did to the genetics messed it up at first and it did take more humans to complete the creature. The first abductees around the outbreak time created beings that had not yet properly mixed with the new forms of the genetics. Some of the morphers were partially sterile. So when the creature that was chasing them infected the Engineers a full transformation could not take place and only the head began to be affected first. The heads began explode because the full morphing cycle had not been accomplished by the Engineers as they left the x chromosome out of the equation in some cases. Even if an Alien is more male then female it still contains both sexes. just like males contain both versions of the 23rd chromosome. But to create eggs out of their victims with their form of the bioweapon they need a female. They needed to pry the genetics back out of Adam's rib and re-seperate the sexes within our species. We're told by religion that at first there was only man. Then eve was created out of Adam... The original man as described by the Sumerian myths, the Adamos, was created as a servant class. So the Sumerians say. But the first man was also said to be created when their were no women. And their version of Eve was created by taking the Adamos genetics. Adam/the Adamos already had the female genetics trapped in him... Then we were backengineered from the very first man, to be a species with women. Wouldn't that be funny. If they weren't combining/creating anything, just returning their own genetics to a more natural state to retrieve the x chromosome and egg laying traits again... So they wouldn't be forced to play with this deadlier form of the fire that does not extinguish easily but burns out faster... I think there are parts of the lifecycle we didn't see and maybe a young drone wandered away from the queens signal. Became a Praetorian or Deacon, did find his/her way aboard the dropship, planted the eggs, Bishop kicked it out on the way back, thought things were safe, and learned about the eggs only when the Queen was there. maybe the queen wasn't chasing Ripley. she may be a lot smarter than the King and had some control over her servants... She may have been instinctively and logically thinking and preparing to try to spread their colonies to other planets by somehow knowing she had to start a new hive on the only way off that planet. The stuff that covers the walls may be part of this. Some creatures may even be able to deposit the jelly and lots of organic matter down to reconfigure it. Meaning if morphing is involved a royal may still retain this ability. The head molts and becomes a crown, so warriors may have hidden abilities related to the bio-material that covers their hives. They even morph the environment to their suiting, like we do with our technology.

She may have known her time upon the Hadleys Hope colony was up and was going to be destroyed so she went into self-preserving, survival mode. To be fair to the idea of a king alien if all but brief time to procreate with the queen say one of her smaller drones. Lets just briefly say that cycle perhaps at times is 'performed' by the quenn and selected grunt/warrior/drone male there is nothing so far that has both been presented by Ridley Scott's Alien film and James Cameron's Aliens that it hasn't taken place even if it was off-screen when it occurred. There would perhaps need to be a stronger case to back this idea up in order to support its further debate but as the case was with viewing the cargo down in the Derilcts silo. As yet, within the franchise, there is nothing to suggest that this is not indeed is the remenants of a 'converted forsaken'. It's intruging and engaging and I welcome the intruge to pursue that type of inquiry but it does have to be followed through with some selmance of educated reasoning which the cocooning hypothosis can stand up to scrutiny on in dual relation to the queen birthing sequence as well.

If Alien3 shooting scripts are to be believed, Queens are born with all the eggs they're ever going to lay (same as human females - kinda... not so much the laying, but anyway). They don't need to mate with another Alien because the act of procreation doesn't occur when an egg is produced - it occurs when hugger meets host. In a manner of speaking, the ovum laid by the Queen, produces a sperm (ie hugger), which then impregnates another ovum (ie. the host).

See but that's what I'm saying it's all off-screen so far, we don't know exactly how the Queen comes about. Even Praetorians are a concept that's not firmly established yet on film. Exactly how that Queen and her offspring/servants came about. Not that she would need the male side, but it's more of a backup for producing more aliens in the first place that can then produce a queen. She then cannibalizes and morphs the King or male-leaning hermaphrodites in favour of the evolutionarily advantageous egg trait. Not egg laying, but you get what I'm saying. Shaw has something wrong with her ovum, and might not have produced a Queen when you take it with the Engineer possibly having altered x chromosomes (lack of nipples). The stuff about preying mantises and blackwidows is me thinking that she cannabilizes the males to create the new servants, and remove deacons from the equations, while sending out a signal that represses the growth of males once she arises. Turning them into her obedient offspring/warriors that are weaker and easier to kill-- but easier to control and protect herself with. She almost knew her time was up when she was on Hadley's hope and allowed Ripley to approach to retrieve newt because she understood her babies were at risk. She forces the warriors/drones present in the hive to back away before Ripley torches the place. I do really think that after that she kicked into survival mode, rather than angry mode, and it was more so a combination of the flight and fight response. It was running but also chasing it's target to the next site of fresh meat. Which it may have already realized was going to be where ever its prey was coming from or going. It may have been thinking a lot more than the males that it came to rule. See I don't think Ridley is trampling on the Queen concept, on the contrary he may have Cameron's blessing because of some of their work with Fox before Alien 5: the homeworld/jockey exploration story fell through. However, Ridley/Fox may be approaching it in a way that complements the Queen concept and goes even deeper with it while telling an unseen parallel story that meets up in the middle.

Praetorians aren't established at all - never mind 'firmly'.

Sorry poor choice of words. Yes it hasn't been established at all how they really change and turn into the other classes. I've seen that word used and understand the concept so I adopted it just to describe a stage before a Queen. That idea is sort of out there, but it doesn't have to be exactly like the comics describe. In fact anything about a King from the comics would not be used. One of the comics where the Mala'kak are genetically engineering a King is the closest it may come. If used it would be completely altered and more of a natural thing. The head thing may be far more important to the morphing cycle. In some parasitic insects the parasite is deposited in the head before spewing out a number of eggs. The infected creature goes on as a zombie to the parasite that is eating away at its brain... then the poor ant keels over and spews what will become eggs out of its mouth. That's what the Hammerpede was doing in there... Instead of converting the body first and turning it into and egg... the Engineers made it a little different. We've now got headbursters as well... Which is why the Engineer head looks like an egg... and explodes when the transformation is resumed. it didn't have a fully functioning x chromosome, so it exploded. It's sort of a fail-safe--meaning the Engineers are less vulnerable to a massive outbreak than the Elders or us..

Which comic was that? I remember humans creating one in Rogue, but that was more of a title than a role. Beyond the obvious Queen role, I don't see the point of other specialised roles for Aliens (with the possible exception of Cameron's albino drones).

I think that Rogue does have something like that. This is the comic with the big ass dude with a bunch of tubes in it, I'll have to dig it up. I quickly realized the Engineers would be a lot different. but i looked at that comic a few years back and it had to do with the Jockeys tampering with the genetics. it would be sort of like Black widows, to feed her young and separate them from the backup form of the genetics who spread the message of the alien genetics religiously and fervently through morphing until the queen arises. Not really feeding on them but using the free males' bio material to start mophing the walls of her hive... they sort of get turned to royal jelly, to throw in a comic concept that may be altered and renamed. The main function is that when there are no eggs or no Queens left, there still has to be a way to start a new hive/ create more eggs. Like lets say if one Alien gets on a ship and then travels far away form the hive it came from. But wasn't initially a Queen. So I strongly believe the morphing cycle was what that original Alien in the first movie was doing to try to, eventually, move back to the Queen/Egg laying method. And is mainly only a servant in the Alien species like all the other male drones, and warriors. So this would be the one time we get to see the King extend his lifespan and reign a little longer, artificially like Weyland may do via David... So the thematic links are what I focus on. Vickers never got to be "Queen", thus we may see mainly Kings in the next movie. Although David and the Deacon are artificial kings, never really intended to be King of the colonies/hives. The alien genetics were re-born into a new form and pass briefly through ancestral stages, to the Deacon, and eventually creating a queen through some more additional stages. It rapidly shoots back through its evolution after being broken down because of the goo.Just like Weyland's rule is about to be passed to an android like in the video games... Although this android may not pretend he's human. He may have been behind the scenes secretly running the company this whole time... giving the other androids his knowledge. It may be David who now runs Weyland corp... As the closest thing to a son Weyland left behind. He has no relatives to leave the company to and Vickers is dead. King David may have biblical connections Weyland intended when he named David. Lawrence of Arabia "trains" David how to be a leader and perform his tricks. If he believes he is not telling a lie, he can get away with one part of Asimov's laws. In the early scenes he gives a weird mission time. Lindelof says this is totally planned and part of David performing a trick. Expressing things in different ways to cover certain things up. David uses double meaning to trick himself into believing what he's saying is true. Thus he's not lying, as his double meaning reveals what is truly going on... When Holloway makes the real boy comment this has certain connections to Pinnochio... David is really becoming more real, and gaining some freewill... The trick is not minding that his double meanings hurt him in the end, after enough new info is provided what he's lying about will start to show. He answers things ambiguously or vaguely because he's trying to lie. Remaining ambiguous allows him to not reveal the truth. That's only one small part of the trick leaders and politicians use to deceive, double-speak. And it's how a robot can get around programming that prevents it from lying. "Because you know sometimes words have two meanings". Paradise can mean a number of things, and David says there were different words for it in different cultures. Shaw sees it as meaning Heaven, because she chooses what to believe because of her fathers advice. The dangerous thing is that David learned to lie by watching her dream and he now also chooses what to believe. Him only working out the "broad strokes" about why the Engineers wanted to destroy us means he chose any belief he was being presented with, out of all the possibilities he analyzed. But he may not have chose the correct one. On purpose. He tricked himself into believing he was telling the truth. Like how some people pass lie detectors. The role of fathers in this story is particularly important too... again the male side. We never meet Shaw's mother. But Weyland's mother has heavy influence over the mixtures of different cultural influences and what Weyland knows. Because of comparative mythology. things were put in a new order. And went through stages in Prometheus where morphing was involved. I think the Deacon will eventually try to get back to the Queen genetics. But we'll see the struggle for power between genders that occurs as every hive is created... We just didn't see it yet. There was always a Queen to suppress the males and no need for it/morphing cycle. Now we have no eggs, no Queen (so far), and possibly non-functioning egg genes, that would trace back to the very first creatures that developed this trait. How the gender themes apply to everything else, and how Weyland wanted a son, and created the closest thing to a son. Closest thing to the next king.... is part of it.

The reason I bring up preying mantises is the decapitation of the males angle. Not that it's strictly bug/parasite characteristics that make up the Aliens. The Aliens could be like a combination of all the most evil seeming traits and survival mechanisms that are spread out over a vast number of species all across evolution. At one point they talked about how they based it on many different things, fish and a lot of organisms that operate in similar ways. Or give it other traits like the jaw. Basically this things a *fudger* and has the combination of all the most horrific traits known to all species. Including cannibalizing some of the young so they don't cannibalize hers to extend their reign and outlive their usefulness to the females. It's the males heads they're after... that becomes how they produce the walls, and even morph themselves/protect themselves. The female in such species may kill the father because there's a chance he wants to eat the babies, and she is driven to protect her young as they arise and become non-morphers/her servants. And the female Alien may feed the males to the others. Bringing back some of why the Alien needed to feed... When its gonna morph or transform it needs lots of energy. Even to construct the hive they need to feed on the males and spit them back out to morph the environment... they become part of the background. The original male is leaning in those rocks in the trading cards. Ash sees him as part of the rock formation in the monitor in the book I think, not sure. Hypnotized, mesmerized, gargonized and petrified can have the same meaning when set in the same context. *moderated*

Topic Closed. This thread has reached it's maximum in my opinion and the topic has gone off course several times.