A Closer Look at the Bombing Sequence

@ali81

Indeed it appeared to effect Fifield differently, but RS had said he was going through the same process eventually as the Engineer Head...

I mentioned in this Topic, that with the Paragraph from the Novel, i can see maybe the Pathogen effects the Engineers differently in that maybe it outright kills them and then breaks them down when its not from a Exploded Urn.  Or just replicates inside them when from a Exploded Urn but does not break down their Genetic Structure but Solidifies it.

Of-course we then must ask why does it effect them different, if we are Genetically connected?  Again its down to maybe faults and lack of coherent thought when they are showing us the Substance.

Because Davids Experiments are interesting as a number of these must have came from Humanoid Hosts, and so they either Evolved from Dr Shaws Egg Cells, or from Humanoid Babies, obtained from Dr Shaw or Female Engineers.

sorry for dbl post, dam computer.

from what I have seen I theorise that there r different forms. we have had 2 totally different effects from seemingly the same substance which isn't consistant. Holloway and fifield were being mutated regardless of amout they were infected with, as far as I could tell. the end result was going to be the same but at different rates.

If Sukal was around, maybe he could translate the writing on the Urns?

Why don't the corpses remaining in the Necropolis courtyard SHOW these deformities? And why haven't the bodies rotted being out in the rain for many years? I have to agree with Dave where it was just thought "oh this looks cool" as it almost didn't make the final cut. I've always thought each 223 pyramid contained different strains of urn bombs but the now 'nanites and AI '=not buying that at all.

@Yog - "Foxes Alien Covenant Evolution graphic, isn't faulty with canon. It says the Motes are "Microscopic dust-like spores".

It also says the egg "spews a cloud of microscopic spores (motes)". They are neither microscopic nor spores. They are tiny insect-like organisms.

It also show the Covenant ovomorph egg from David's egg room as says it was produced by a queen, shows a Facehugger and egg from the Alien movie, the chest burster from Alien, not seen in Covenant, shows a xenomorph with a description from the Aliens movie referring to a queen, calls the baby Neomorph a "bloodburster" and uses concept art of a version not seen in the movie, et cetera. It's just something sloppy produced by Fox marketing, not the Covenant film makers.

@ ali81

I know what there is evidence for yes. It all points to one kind of goo.

and the evidence also suggests the other.

but anyway lol

its more than likely that the smaller earns if they are small, have a smaller dispersion rate or area.

From what i can grasp is the pathogen is all the same and is adjusted to the desired host etc.

It does look more than likely that david was not the original  creator of the xenemorph but more of the final tinkerer .

Lets hope we get the next film with a more in depth explanation. 

Maybe the origin of the Goo e.g engineers were like david and just found it and were able to manipulate it ?

There is so many possibilities I just dont like it when movie studios make changes outside of the original design just to suit them. 

@ Kethol

I think you will find that Fox owns the Alien franchise rights, not Ridley Scott or any of the Covenant film makers. They get to say what is canon. It's their game. All that is shown in that evolution guide is canon to the Alien universe, like it or not. Alien eggs, usually are made by a Queen, maybe not David's specific eggs, but that's splitting hairs to say it's faulty canon. Also, yes those insects ARE microscopic, did you read in my post, my link about microscopic insects? They actually exist on Earth, that is part of the reason I agreed with you! *facepalm*. Here is the link again - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairyfly

"Fairyflies are very tiny insects, like most chalcid wasps. They average at only 0.5 to 1.0 mm (0.020 to 0.039 in) long. They include the world's smallest known insect, with a body length of only 0.139 mm (0.0055 in), and the smallest known flying insect, only 0.15 mm (0.0059 in) long."

I'm guessing these spore-insects are of similar size, thus they are microscopic. Plus they can also be called spores, because they are formed from mutated fungal spores. They act like spores, look like spores from a distance, but up close they are tiny insects as big as Fairyflies. Please just admit to being wrong for once?

@ ali81

Sorry dude, there is no hard evidence for multiple types of goo. David says "The pathogen took many forms, and proved extremely mutable" not "There were many forms of pathogen which were extremely mutable".

David means the original pathogen mutated into different forms to get round different bodily defences. Please read the novel. It's all there in black and white.

The one original pathogen mutated into different forms after infection of different hosts, not before hand.

@ S1m0n

Yeah I agree with you dude. I just wish some others would.

Amazing debate by the way !!!!!

My opinion pre A:C was that it was all one goo.

post A:C i can not say for certain.

the engineer transformations in the pics are different to what we have seen. i had noticed the strange shapes coming out of their chests. at first i thought maybe because it was delivered in a different way. like rained down from urns but is that not like fifield getting splashed in the face?

i am going to guess that it is one goo. evidence is shakey on both sides so i am going with FOX and that is 1 goo. However it is entirely possible they u turn it.

My concern is sometimes a few of us agree on something and over time gets repeated until it is gospel. Take the prequel novel - i was lead to believe that it was a prequel to a:c with David and Shaw. it was not. but we all thought it was fact because we assumed. i am just careful that we dont do it with this as it is a key piece of the story. all hinging on a quote from a novel.

another worrying point is that perhaps for originality and effects the transformations have been kept fresh rather than have the same thing happen to each person. so it is always ingested in a different way, different dose  to warrant changes in the transformations. this is great on the eye for the casual fan but causes much confusion to us.  perhaps it is more down to effects than continuity which is sad for a franchise but effects sell some tickets i guess.

1 Goo is my guess

@ Sherris

"but is that not like Fifield getting splashed in the face?" - Not really, as I said in another post, Fifield was wearing a protective suit, and only got a smallish splash on the face through his melted helmet. The engineers got it epicly rained down on them, while wearing only cloth robes, with all of their bald heads showing. They got a much bigger dosage than Fifield. Anyway, we also know from David, that the goo has different reactions to different genomes and that it kills some creatures outright. It may be the case that it kills engineers outright, as it was never designed for engineers as the target. Either is possible. But yes, the one goo theory has the most evidence at the moment, by a long way.

The major piece of evidence that the goo is lethal to engineers, is that we see those worm-like creatures totally swimming in the black goo (the biggest dosage possible), in Prometheus, and they don't disolve or burn to a crisp. They just laid eggs which hatched into hammerpedes (their form of 2nd stage parasite). Thus I think the effect we see on the engineers is specific to their genome only.

The hammerpedes were not born from eggs. They were transformed from those worms shown earlier in the movie that were doused in the black pathogen on the floor. Contact with that form of the pathogen mutated them.

If you are so stuck on the Fox marketing material being canon, read that one you were just talking about earlier again :) - Hammerpede - result of indigenous worms of LV-223 being exposed to the Black Liquid.

The film makers also confirm this in the Prometheus supplement materials.

That is the same form of the pathogen that Fifield was exposed to, and he was mutating into something else as well. The form Holloway was exposed to was doing something different to him, as he never became violent or showed signs of the same mutation as Fifield. Just tissue infection and discoloration, and the tiny worm-like parasites inside him.

was going to say that. theres no evidence that the hammerpedes comes form eggs. I believe the intended impression ridley set for them was the worms were infected then mutated into the hammerpeds.

@ Kethol

You're just being a professional troll now. You just keep making the same claims over and over without adding actual evidence. I've already disproven your theory of multiple goos by pointing to the dosage difference of Fifield and Holloway.

The hammerpedes were just mutated worms were they? Then why did we see all those worms writhing about in the goo and not growing into hammerpedes before our eyes? Obviously they were mutating, but the mutation doesn't make them into giant worms. The Fox Evolution guide says Hammerpedes are the "Result of indigenous worms being exposed to the Black liquid", and I agree. The result is that the mutated worms lay eggs (Their reproductive system) which then hatch into hammerpedes. This is what we saw in Holloways eye, a baby hammerpede. Obviously the black goo that David put in his drink had microscopic worm eggs in there too, so he got infected with hammerpedes as well. He obviously didn't live long enough to suffer large hammerpedes erupting from him however. Hamerpedes are to worms as trilobites are to male humans.

1. Use logic while arguing.

2. Use evidence.

3. Admit it when you are wrong.

I do all 3 of these with pleasure.

I can see what ur getting at. the black goo infects the worms and hammerpedes burst out of the worms?

@ ali81

Nah, my idea is that the black goo infects the worms, they lay eggs, which is their method of reproduction (I'm guessing they're hermaphrodites, so they all lay eggs or something), the eggs hatch out into baby hammerpedes, which grow bigger. The hammerpede then tries to infect another host, just as we see one go down the throat of Millburn. Millburn would then burst out with some kind of neomorph or deacon kind of thing, that we never get to see. Ok I admit I have not much evidence for this theory other than just connecting dots and making assumptions. I could be wrong, the hammerpedes could be just mutated worms and due to their different genome...their mutation is different to humans etc. But I want to see my theory refuted with counter-evidence first, before I ditch it. But anyway I have enough evidence for there being only one black goo, so I'm sticking to that idea much more strongly.

well ur gna have to accept that with the material at hand to both sides of the argument, neither can be proved or disproved. u have a theory and some else has a theory. theres is no evidence to prove u wrong but by lack of evidence, u cant prove urself right either, nor can anyone who has a counter theory. that's whats messed up with the goo. its still open to interpretation due to the different effects it has. even ur argument that its purely down to the amount of goo used to infect others isn't based on concrete evidence really.  

@ Yog -

1. Use logic while arguing

2. Use evidence.

3. Admit it when you are wrong.

Turn all those back around on yourself. You have not provided any of the above, other than admitting you were wrong about the motes in another thread.

Seriously, you are missing the obvious stuff. If you can't figure out the hammerpede origin by watching the movie - it is shown logically -  listen to the evidence on the Prometheus commentary and Mr. Lindelof will spell it out clearly for you. And please admit you were wrong after doing so.

The Foxes Alien Covenant Evolution graphic

It appears to be the same kind of hash job as the Prometheus one, where it shows stuff that contradicts what we see in the movie.  So i dont really buy into the FOX explanatory files.  But then this is personal choice due to conflicts i see with what we are shown.

The Alien Covenant Evolution graphic seems pretty accurate apart from the Eggs.. because this then would imply that there is no Egg Morph, No David Experiments, and that A Queen simply lays the Eggs and David must then had experimented on one of these... which some people can read into this if they read the Novel where David claims the Egg (First one he shows Oram) was found as it was and he had nothing to do with it.

The Problem really is the Original Vision which in this case is Jon Spaights Draft, was simple and if this was stuck to more there would be less confusion and everything makes more sense.

It appears as the Prequel developed they just seemed to change things around and around without considering how showing one thing effects the interpretation of others.

So its a bit of a mess really....

Regarding the EYEWORM... this was something that was debated, a bit of a anomaly that lead to various debates years ago... ranging from the conclusion it was just a AWOL Holloway Sperm... which would mean the image i will post next is a Holloway Self Bukkake  lol

Where as i pondered the Eyeworms as maybe being Parasites, and this explained the Tiny Movement in the Goo David had on his Finger and that these Parasites were transmitted the Dr Shaw via SEX like a STD and one of these Parasites infected on of Dr Shaws Egg Cells...  this of course did not sit well with some on here... as it never made sense... but then it does if we considered the Nano-Scarabs (Spaights Alien Engineers).

A few Months after this theory came into my head (no Pun intended) then these were released at the time of the Blu-ray of Prometheus.

These clearly show similar to the Eye Worm, and they are burring into Holloways Skin, the next shot we see his veins all turning back etc.. which is what Holloway indeed looked like prior to Vickers Torching Him.

We cant 100% accept these Props as Canon, but it appears from these Props the Blackening of the Veins/Blood Vessels seems like it happens after the many worm things and as a result of them and not prior.

Looking at Spaights Nano-Scarabs and also the Sacrificial Goo, then maybe the Black Goo contained Nano-Worms that grew and then these would then infect the Host and then we get the similar effects to the ingestion of the Sacrificial Goo by the Engineer.

But alas we cant 100% consider these things, and Alien Covenant to a degree has also changed things, in deed it appears they are toying with what the Black Goo is and does over and over between Prometheus to Alien Covenant.

So indeed it causes confusion... like Originally Fifield was turning into something more Engineer and not a Toxic Avenger, but Ridley Scott had commented based on the Zombie Fifield that he was in the Process of changing just as the Engineer Head was.

So its still a bit of a mess and open to interpretation etc, we cant really 100% discredit some of the theories here or support them either.

@ Kethol

I've probably watched both Prometheus and Covenant many more times than you mate. You're just getting angry because you're wrong about the black goo and can't take the pain. Oh well, some people know how to argue without crying about it. I've given more than enough evidence for there being a single black goo and different genome and dosage effects, so if that isn't going to convince you nothing will.

Mr Lindelof needs to explain why there is a baby hammerpede in Holloway's eye, and why all the worms havn't mutated into hammerpedes, if you are right. But anyway, it could be a massive plot hole, I don't know. There isn't much evidence for the hammerpede life cycle at all.

shaw was impregnated with infected jiz. Holloway was being mutated from the inside which would make his sperm being contaminated make perfect sense. the result was the pathogen using one of shaws eggs to create the trilobite which would then ask the question was shaw herself infected and not just that one egg? it is all over the place and theres no structure to the goo yet. seems to be a case of 'what do we want the goo to do this time?' and the fact its all over the place they can explain it away.

"Nah, my idea is that the black goo infects the worms, they lay eggs, which is their method of reproduction"

I can see what you mean and your not alone on this idea, it was something my Prometheus Re-write was to include before i abandoned it few years ago... my Re-write does indeed show the Hammerpedes had Eggs and also that Milburn had a Chest Buster that i envisioned to be a bit more Human than even the Deacon.

Also i have debated the whole Chest Busted Engineers in the Cryo-Pods in Prometheus before, and Space Jockey and i did wonder potentially could the Hammerpedes had been KEY to the Space Jockey?

Because those Worms have been there for a long time, they never got brought there by the Prometheus Crew, and so was there 2000 years ago.. and if there was a Outbreak... we all know Black Goo + Native worms = Hammerpede.

And so the same thing could have happened in the past and as Worms are Hermaprodites and Egg Layers/Producers all it needs is TWO Hammerpedes (Black Goo Evolved Worms) and we would end up with TWO Hammerpedes with Fertilized Eggs.  In Prometheus when Milburn and Fifield discover the Hammerpedes there are TWO of them.

I will however look at a point you Yog Sothoth brought up by comparing something to the Neomorph/Motes.

If indeed the Black Goo (well stuff in the Glass vials) are Parasitic Worms that act like the Motes in Alien Covenant, then indeed one of these could be passed onto Dr Shaw and actually it incubates in her Womb and Grows into a Trilobite.

So i can see the potential then for one of these Eye-Worms then acting like the Motes in Alien Covenant and growing a Organism inside a Host... this would mean a more simple route to how the Engineers got Chest Busted, if the Black Goo can grow into a Organism inside a Host.

However as Dr Shaws Baby had a Umbilical Cord i will assume it was the result of a Infected/Evolved/Mutated Human Egg Cell.

Things were more straight forwards if we look at how the Nano-Scarabs worked in Alien Engineers.  If we took this route and applied it to the Franchise then the Mural and Frescos all make sense and everything we see in the Prequels does.

Apart from why those Engineers on Paradise remained Mummified Blackened Corpses.

@ BigDave

Sorry dude, I don't agree with anything you said there. I see no problem at all with the Fox evolution graphic. Makes total canon sense to me. They don't have to include that David created the eggs to start with.  Everything else in your post I have already argued against. I think the evidence that its a hammerpede in Holloway's eye is pretty strong. It looks like a tiny hammerpede, so I need to be shown otherwise to believe otherwise. That worms boring into his face thing was never part of the eventual movie, so can be discarded, along with scarabs and the Belugamorph. There is no evidence that anything comes out of the black goo. Things are infected by it. That's all we know. All that X,Y,Z coming out of the goo is BS as far as I'm thinking.

so if nothing comes out of the goo and it is just a liquid, where does the worm like thing in holloways eye come from? the source used to infect him was sealed. how can it be a hammerpede?

Good point....let me watch Prometheus again. Hold on.

hahaha if it helps the source is the urn david takes. he freezes it so it doesn't leak like the rest and when he pulls the contents out, the jars inside are still in their pristine state.