Comments (Page 645)

I Moon Girl This wouldn't contradict what we've seen in Prometheus... the idea that we find our creators who turn out to be these flawed beings.

ABigDave - "there are a lot of flaws with this scene as far as potentially conflicts with what we have seen in Prometheus and indeed other scenes in Alien Covenant."

Like what?

"I was meaning as far as the Spaights idea, and the Black Goo"

Spaiths did not say they were nano sized in his script either, or in his Blu Ray commentary. In the movie you can visibly see the individual motes flying in swarms. Tiny, but visible to the naked eye. The swarms move in waves, like schools of fish or flocks of birds.

"To Re-create Option A David would need some Humanoid Sperm, but to Re-create Option B David would just need to get some Black Goo (well the Glass Vial component) into Shaws Womb."

Why would David need to re-create either?

"Indeed its interesting for sure, i think there are so many clues and stuff over the last two movies that kind of contradict each other a little?  It gets you thinking do they have a ACTUAL idea of how all this works?"

It is clear to me they mapped out exactly how all the various forms of the pathogen worked back when they made Prometheus. Lindelof said there were drafts with things specifically spelled out but Ridley wanted to pull back and not reveal everything directly. He wanted people to be doing exactly what we are doing now.

Same with Covenant. One of the writers, Harper I think, said as much the same about that script. He said if you shroud something in mystery, you still have to know exactly what is going on. He said he could write a small book on it, because they had to figure everything out in order to know how much to reveal, and how much not to.

@ joylitt

"I don't think the xenomorph was created by David or by the Engineers."

I like that.  It's like the Engineers are no better than humans if that angle you purpose turns to be true.  Currently, we are led to believe the Engineers are gods.  

We could even say we are led to believe the Engineers are Gods, with a capital 'G'.  Still, I guess that is implied.

But, with your angle, it would turn out that the Engineers are no better than the scientists in A:R and I guess all human space capitalists.

I like this angle.  Through this angle, we could really learn who the Engineers are.  Then, by the end of the story, we realize, they have just more history.  

In the end, both humans and Engineers would want the Xeno because it is the perfect creature.  The question is though, "Where did the Engineers get the Xeno DNA to study and abuse for themselves?"

joylitt exactly. Perfect example. A virus.

I think there are really only 2 great Alien movies, being the first 2 they released. Alien 3 while I enjoy it is probably mediocre, and the series hasn't been able to rise above that since, resulting in the next 3 movies and the 2 AVP movies being either just as good as 3(which isn't a huge accomplishment to me) or worse.

I just saved those pictures because I just realized that I needed to keep them forever.  AMAZING CAKE!

I think this should be pinned to the top of the forum a little longer because this is just b-e-a-u-tiful!

I'm glad I found it again!

Lawrence of Arabia its a good film, and personally I think it has the best visual style of all the films. Its almost artistic.

I love that Newborn abomination lol

Yes! someone that gets it. Its a filthy, disgusting abomination. It is supposed to make you uncomfortable to look it. It's repulsive, and that's why it's awesome.

Debate? These are just images from David's lab. Not much to debate. Unless you disagree about the caviar and seafood soup :)

Many scientists argue that an intelligent species might not necessarily be the most successful. Actually this is a constant in all Alien movies... the creature always prevails. Ripley and David might win some battles, but the xenomorph wins the war.

joylitt

I don't think the xenomorph was created by David or by the Engineers.

I Hope you are right. Its takes away their lore and mythos. Perhaps the "Morph" code is embedded in every living organisms DNA coding, a malicious ghost in the machine that the Engineers discovered, experimented on, then weaponised with the Black Pathogen as an evolutionary accelerant/mutagen catalyst.

 Then David continued from that...

One thing we don't know, is how long did David wait to deploy the black goo.  He could've been on Planet 4 for years and was docking his ship to get supplies before leaving and then dropped the bombs after he got what he wanted.  Then, he got into a fight with the mother jauggernaut, which caused him to be marooned on the Planet 4.

So, why would he drop the black goo before he would land there?

This is just another option to the story and is just a guess, but it is something I haven't heard of before.

Plus, the event that caused damaged to the Covenant is more believable if it was a solar flare, as stated multiple times in the movie (as I remember it) and implied in the novel.

I think everyone is getting hung up on the word "neutrino burst".  A neutrino burst could come from a solar flare explosion, no?  Basically, neutrino's would get released from a solar flare. 

If I remember right, neutrino's are everyone but we don't feel them and we can barely see them with technology.  They are very hard to measure.

I don't think the xenomorph was created by David or by the Engineers.

Thanks ali81 :)

BigDave posted a very interesting comment on another thread that may lend credence to your argument.

The Spores i assumed are the result of the Black Goo infecting some type of Fungi, we see the Crashed Juggernaught had crashed up the side of the mountain and scrapped inside some, dirt and other debris from the Mountain...  The Mountain has a Stream running down it and the Juggernaught has crashed over this, and so parts of the water from the stream is flowing over the Juggernaught and leaking inside, while some is flowing under the Juggernaught.

This stream works its way all the way down to the stream Bed.

Ledwood was infected by stepping on a Spore that was by the side of the Stream, where naturally by the side of streams we get various kinds of Growth, which include Moss/Algae and indeed Spores/Fungi which happens on Earth too.

So i assumed some Black Goo infected the Water which then infected any Spore/Fungi/Mold growing near by the Water to then Evolve into the Spores.

Essentially the crashed Juggernaut leaked black goo (perhaps some urns left over from his bombing run that were still "armed") into the waterfall stream.

The neighbouring fungal spores mutated to create the neomorph spores. The black goo appears to be a rapid evolution mutagen Weaponised

I'm sure we will see these sets on the Alien: Covenant VR experience BigDave. How magnificent that will be to see the courtyard and juggernauts in a 3D space?

"But indeed such a lot of work went into this, for such a small portion of Screen Time... its shame we never saw more and i bet it would have been GREAT to take a walk around some of these Sets."

I have only seen the neomorph bursting out in VR (amazing).

I'm not sure if there have been any other VR releases but I would think that all (or the most elaborate) of the beautiful sets in Alien: Covenant will be incorporated into VR.

@drucea

I like that I have never heard of any of the main character actors in Alien: Covenant, expect Danny McBride.  Still, I know Danny McBride as a comedian, not a serious actor in a supposed-to-be horror flick.

Still, to me, they are nobodies since I never heard of them (of course, I don't watch much TV or movies).  Plus, I doubt they have ever been in a horror movie before.  This is probably all of their first times that they are supposed to act so scared that they'll apparently get cop and pawn shop Pulp Fiction abuse all over their rear ends for eternity if they don't (I watched a little of Pulp Fiction last night).

All I wanted out of A:C was a scary movie with a good story.  Plus, I wanted it to be a success at the box office so that we keep getting them and so that everybody gets to watch it because it is so good.

I just don't want money to be spent on things that are never going to be seen if it hurts the movies goals.  Apparently A:C is not quite meeting expectations in the box office, so maybe these details could be cut out (that's if they are high expenses).  This suit we see in this thread is just one piece out of thousands in the whole movie.  Image if this much detail was placed in all of those pieces.  That could really add up.

 "People that act in his movies have said being on his sets make them feel like they are in the actual movie. "

That's some of my concern with his detail.  These are actors.  They shouldn't have to feel like they are in the movie.  They should be acting like they are in the movie.  Ridley made the lander like an actual "roller coaster ride", as described by Danny McBride.  That's cool and all, but I just wonder if it is really necessary.  Can't the crew actually do some amazing acting and make us all believe that they are in the movie (with the help of some fans or whatever movie magic is necessary)? 

That's what I meant with Ridley possibly accepting the fact that he has nobody actors.  Of course, apparently that's not the case since he apparently does a lot of detail all of the time in his movies.

Look, I don't care how much detail is in the movie as long as it makes a good story, is a scary Alien franchise movie, and is a successful.  The more detail the better, until it hurts the movie itself.

@ hox

"There is a scene in Prometheus on the way to meet the Engineer, where they pass an awesome shiny bronze exoskeleton suit. It must have cost a ton of money to design and manufacture, yet was only on the screen for mere seconds."

He also used that for inspiration for the yellow space suits in A:C.  Those suits sound and look expensive too.  Plus, I think they are ugly.  I wish those ones in Prometheus wouldn't be there and replaced by something else.  The one in A:C looks alright, but still sounds like he spent more than he should have on it, but maybe I'm wrong.  Who knows?

After AC I had double feelings about David and Elizabeth.
Based on different theories and my own notices, I concluded, that David loved Shaw.
To describe "emotional" condition of David I would like to parallel David from Prometheus and David from AC.
In Prometheus David was handsome, winsome, looking after himself, venturesome.
In AC hi is devastated, lost and even bored in some moments.
I think, that this changIng came with Shaw's death, and David has internal debate between guilty for her death and
self - persuasion of necessity of her death.
David said that he created his own perfect world, so it makes sense, that he might be happy,
but I didn't see his happiness.
During the AC, David looks like devastated, wailful, broken android with splashes of madness(this madness I didn't notice in Prometheus)
I think, this madness began after he killed Elizabeth(for some reason).
After chestburster erupted from Oram, David must feel triumph for his creature, but he didn't.
Instead of this he is playing on flute with total empty look.
This scene with Shaw's photo, her cross, smoke and melody from Prometheus(which actually call "Life") reminds me some sort of
ritual with David's subconscious desire to bring her back to life.
How I see, David tears up between acceptance of guilty fo her death and tendency to create perfect organism in an effort to
heal the pain(The trick is not minding that it hurts).
Walter's words about wrong note, which ruins all symphony, in my opinion, represent David's Paradise, which lost by reason
of some mistake(Elizabeth's death, perphaps).

IRaptus I concur. I actually liked Resurrection myself but can see why people don't. I love that Newborn abomination lol

^^^

joylitt Not necessarily. The fact that it happened between Shaw and Holloway is a random occurrence but I don't believe this process just happened resulting in a new creature. If the mural is of any Xenomorph like creature, how was it made? I'm sure the Engineers came up with a similar process, like David, and created the Deacons with manipulation of the black goo or the goo came from the Deacons. In Furious Gods: The Making of Prometheus they state that the Deacon is an ancestor and that the mural is of the Deacon. In the Art and Making of Prometheus they even call it the Proto-Xenomorph.

Steve Messing did refer to the Mural as a Deacon....

it is not the same Deacon as the end of the movie though, but its so ambiguous, some see the Mural as a Prophecy of what was to come... Ultimately it could just be a Easter Egg

I see the Mural as the Engineers encountering some Organism/Parasite that leads to something related to the Xenomorph as far as a Organism that has similar Life Cycle, that allowed the Engineers to Once again having some kind of Child-Birth.

They then took a great interest in this and the results and began experimenting on these Organisms, until they had created the Deacon in the Mural.

Pleased with their Perfection... they Sacrificed this to the Sacrificial Substance then stored the broken down Deacon DNA within those Urns.

A Egg Cell evolves into a Embryo, the Early Stage of a Embryo looks very similar in Reptiles, Birds, Amphibians, Fish and Mammals.

A Zygote is thus a BLANK Canvas... with less DNA to Re-write and so the Xeno/Black Goo does not have to change as much DNA and so we get something more Pure to the Origin... but also the Zygote growing in the Womb will take on Traits of the Mother.

We end up with a Human/Xeno-Black Goo Hybrid Embryo which Evolves to the Trilobite Human/Xeno-Black Goo Hybrid Face Hugger.

Cameron likes to build a Story/Tale based on some Central Characters, much like the Star Wars Movies do.

And so i think this is why he felt that investing in Characters to then have them killed off is not the kind of direction he likes to take Franchises down.

If Cameron had made Alien 3 i dont think he would have killed Newt and Hicks off, not in the way they did... maybe one would die in the movie but more  Sacrificial Way so their Death is not meaningless.

And so i think Cameron feels the same for how AC was done, its a case of does he mean how Dr Shaw was handled? how Walter was, or it could even also allude to the Fate of Daniels.

I think Cameron likes to build around Human Characters..

But the Prequels are revolving around a Character and this Character is DAVID.

Lawrence of Arabia How could the deacon be an ancestor of the xenomorph? it is the product of an engineer getting impregnated by Shaw's offspring, which was conceived through sexual intercourse. So the deacon is a pretty random occurrence.

Starlogger agreed on Prometheus.

Come on, Resurrection wasn't that bad. It had a great visual style, some attitude, quirky broken characters.....and the Newborn.

I think thats why RS went for the David creates the Xeno... as a tale of Hubris where as the last chain of Creation, David is finally the one who can handle and Perfect what the Engineers had done.

The Engineers attempt to create the Black Goo Bio-Weapon proved too costly as they attempt to eradicate their creation because we become rebellious and they worried what we could transpire too.

This Black Goo proved to be a great downfall as they failed to control and contain it...

Thus Mankind went on to evolve and Create David, a Hubris for Mankind because its via David that Mankind could now be faced with Destruction from him taking what the Engineers intended to use on us... and Turn it on the Engineers and then experiment on it to create what the Engineers failed to Perfect and Contain..

And then Turn this on Mankind.

So tale would be if Mankind had not created David, then none of this may have happened (death to Engineers) potential Xeno threat to Mankind.

But then to the Engineers, if they had not attempted to create the Bio-Weapon or indeed Mankind in the first place, then they would not have suffered the destruction they had seen at the hands of the Black Goo.

So i think RS is very interested in the idea, they Sub-creating a Creation that has the potential to become AI and seeing itself as Creator than its creator or seeing that it does not have to serve its creator..

And how this has profound consequences, is something RS is very interested in.

Indeed shows it was kind a McGruffin for the most part...

Alien Engineers, Paradise and Prometheus had set down clues that made it quite simple... FOX released a Document that Muddied the waters and then AC did this further.

I did have a Analogy to explain the difference though, where i thought what if the Urns are like a Nuclear Weapon where we have a number of components that have to be activated/set in a certain way to Cause a Nuclear  Blast and its Effects.

And so the Urns are primed in a Certain way that the Black Goo worked differently where it would just attack and kill the cells of the Target, and maybe replicate itself while doing so.

But as a Nuclear Weapon has a number of components and one of those is the Plutonium/Uranium...  That on its own when taken out of the Primed/Detonated Nuke... the Reactive Plutonium/Uranium when it comes into contact with a Organism, it causes Mutations etc rather than a Blast.

And so maybe the Urns Black Goo thus has a different effect when the Urns are not Primed and Exploded as they are intended and we see in the Bombardment Scene.

But the up close images release in the OT, now do give us more to scratch our heads with.  As we clearly see the Engineers are swarmed by smaller amounts of this Black Stuff that then we see the Engineers Vomit and even see leaving in various shapes.. much more Black Stuff that actually entered their Bodies.

But again i guess its because the Black Goo can be Programed to behave in different ways.

Cameron commented Ridleys AC in a polite way. When you read between the lines, you can feel he would have done it completely different.

James Cameron is a director who prefers to go on the safe side. Ridley has been experimenting which is good but sadly the results were only so so this time.

Sometimes less is more.

The mural in Prometheus is of a Deacon. Steve Messing, the guy who did the mural, stated it as such. The Deacon is an ancestor to the Xenomorph strain we see David create. The facehuggers on the mural are Giger's original design thus reaffirming the ancestry. The Engineers would use these bioweapons to cleanse worlds. David learned of their ways and perfected what the Engineers have done with the black goo. The derelict spacecraft/space jockey age could have been mistaken as well. Dallas thought the exosuit the Engineers wore were an exoskeleton like the crew of the Prometheus. Dallas also isn't a scientist but a space trucker. That was his assumption. I don't get why people dislike that David created the Xeno but different strokes. I also haven't been a part of the franchise since it's conception either but it makes sense and is very interesting angle. If he isn't the creator of the Xenos then the prequels narrative would be pointless and it would fall apart. I do believe his creation will turn against him for his hubris.

I was meaning as far as the Spaights idea, and the Black Goo.

Even the Spore Motes seemed well Microscopic and so maybe Nano is Technically the wrong Term ;)

I have only studied Alien Covenant from seeing it 3 times at the Box Office and so indeed from what i saw the Wasps are indeed small but no were near tiny as far as like Sperm Cells etc

So my Bad for using Nano-Wasps ;)

Back to the OT.... i think they did not have to make things so complicated in Alien Covenant.  Prometheus was Dead Simple Really if people had some kind of attention Span.

And so any budding Scientist wishing to experiment with the Black Goo and noting what was known from Prometheus..  And so if you was DAVID then surely the Starting Point would be to look at the Fifield/Hamerpede Infection and then Ponder what became of Dr Shaws Trillobite.

The closest we saw to a Xenomorph was the Deacon, birthed from the Trilobite which was a Human/Xeno-strain Hybrid Face Hugger of Sorts.

So David would have some idea this Trilobite was the result of either

a) Black Goo (Parasite) infecting Holloways Sperm that infected Dr Shaws Egg Cell.

b) Black Goo (Parasite) infecting Dr Shaws Egg Cell after being transmitted to her via Holloway.

To Re-create Option A David would need some Humanoid Sperm, but to Re-create Option B David would just need to get some Black Goo (well the Glass Vial component) into Shaws Womb.

Which i think Ultimately is what David had done at some point, he had tested the stuff with her Eggs.. But then he would also cross hybrid this with other creations until he had Perfected his Experiments.

I agree with the Theme, and how it could lead to David Ultimately being destroyed/overthrown and Rebelled against/Failing to control his own Creation.

Just as Weylands Creation David had done, and just as the Engineers Creation Mankind had done and i think this Process could go back even further than the Engineers.

Indeed Originally Prometheus was setting up to show us the Engineers are the Space Jockeys and a Advanced Race of Genetic Engineers.

It was to show us the Black Goo is connected to the Xenomorph, their is a link Genetically.  This link was hinted that the Connection is thus.

1) The Xenomorph is Evolved from the Black Goo its Creation is via a series of events connected to the Black Goo.  And thus the Black Goo Originated from something Genetically Related.

2) The Black Goo originated from the Xenomorph

3) The Xenomorph and other Related Organisms, had originated from another Origin and the Engineers attempted to intermix, hybrid and Perfect a Organism related and when they had achieved this... the results they stored within the Urns as the Black Goo.

The clues were there to show us that the Xenomorph could potentially had been linked to the Outbreak that killed off those Engineers 2000 years ago.

RS even confirmed the connection by saying the Derelict Event happened within a Few Hundred years of that Outbreak.

But now they have seemed to throw us a Curve-ball which seems to hint David creates the Xenomorph which means the Eggs on the Derelict are no more than 10 years old.

But again FOX/RS could again change things to indeed show us David just Re-created it.

Thoughts_Dreams There weren't any monsters on the Covenant and they truly believed they left the madness behind them on Planet 4. It was probably a grateful for the last couple alive so lets cherish it type thing.

I don't have a problem with nudity in any film myself as long as it fits plus I don't mind seeing naughty bits lol It's always been a part of the Alien franchise so I don't understand why it shouldn't. I was actually disappointed we didn't get to see Waterson in her undies. 

Cosmonaut-Copper - Hi, what a surprise! Thank you for your comment and the short comic! :D

I'm a huge fan of your works, the flute scene created by you makes Alien Covenant a perfect movie. :)

The hidden scene with Walter was popular as well:

david does confirm that the pathogen comes in many different forms. this is possibly just one such form that doesn't act in the same way as the black goo seen in Prometheus?

Thanks for the uploads..

I will have to try and debate this when i feel i have more Energy/Motivation...  so then i can do discussions some justice, but the whole Davids Lab and all the detail is amazing, and i am sure will be a great resource for a lot of discussion.

@BigDave - "And so the Nano-Wasps"
"Jon Spaights Nano-Scarabs"
"like there was Nano-Parasites in it"
"these Parasites are actually Nano-worms"

I think you have nano fever BigDave. Not sure where you are getting all those nano prefixes from, but those all could be seen with the naked eye. They are not nano sized organisms.

I honestly thought Alien 3 was terrible. 

"There's an Aleen Quen in me, nuuuuuuuuuuu"~ Ripley.

"Dag Xeno, rawrrr"~Dog Xeno

Thanks for this...

Indeed makes you wonder if they really thought this out, there are a lot of flaws with this scene as far as potentially conflicts with what we have seen in Prometheus and indeed other scenes in Alien Covenant.

Is it just a case they thought... this would look really cool...?

I dont agree with how they showed some stuff in the movie, but i guess its fun to try and figure how this can all connect, it could appear the Black Goo just became similar to the Motes we see the Spores released...

But then for some reason all we have is these attack the Engineers and somehow by Virtue of entering the Engineers Body, they seemed to reproduce in number and then leave the Body in the same fashion we see the Motes leave the Spores and take shape into that flying formation.

I do agree with Gavin regarding the nudity in Sci-fi but your reasoning regarding the Terminator story is so awesome.

"so he kinda had to bang sarah"

You are great ali81.

Nice work there... thanks for sharing